Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

…the use of "So" to begin the answer to any question has become something of a universal tic…

I recall opening a very old (early-to-mid 20th century?) book in the college library where I worked for 19 years, and seeing several paragraphs beginning with "Now,…". My ex-husband's father, born at the end of the 19th century, was in the habit of beginning a sentence with "Now." 
"So" (which I frequently use) seems to have taken the place of the unnecessary "Now." 

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

…the word "Therefore" would be a more formal way to start, but I feel like "So" and "Therefore" and "Thus" have become true synonyms in that context.

Now that I've re-read 👆this bit, I feel a bit better about the use of So and even Now. They do cue the reader (or listener) that the following words are a conclusion of what went before.

8 minutes ago, ABay said:

the writer could, and should, have left out So and started with It.

However, note that the "Now" at the beginning of my sentence above could not be removed without rewriting the sentence. At least mentally deleting "So" at the start of a sentence to determine if it's necessary is probably a good practice.

In the 90s I worked for 4 years at a college prep high school. The popular use of the sentence starter "So…" was peaking among the teen students. Students regularly recited a prayer over the intercom at the start of the day. After one of these recitations, our principal, the wonderfully feminist Sister Helen, wryly remarked: “I've never heard a prayer begin with 'So, in the name of' before.”
Sister Helen's remark has echoed in my mind for decades.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

I notice that "So . . . " is usually used in informal speech.  Not in formal writing. 

[fastiller]

In Ireland the word "now" is sometimes a full sentence (and not as a reply to "when?").  Generally when someone puts a cup of tea & a plate of biscuits (or a glass of beer or whisky) in front of you. 

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, ABay said:

the writer could, and should, have left out So and started with It.

Having now read the material that immediately precedes the paragraph, I agree with you.

[shapeshifter]

This turn of phrase was in a NYT Morning email today: “They seemed well and truly lost.”

The writer is this respected and well-educated, published author: wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Kirsch

But I'm still questioning the use and meaning of "well" here.👆
The writer is from the parts of the US where I lived until age 10, so it shouldn't be my unfamiliarity with a local colloquialism. 

Even allowing for the tone of the piece being somewhat informal, I'm just not sure how "well" adds to the meaning here. I guess it's like a well-done hamburger?
Here's the full paragraph:

Quote

A couple months ago, a friend of mine lost her phone. The next day, another friend lost his wallet. These things weren’t just misplaced; they didn’t surface the next day. They hadn’t slid out of a pocket and down between the couch cushions only to be found while tidying the house. The phone and wallet disappeared and didn’t come back. They seemed well and truly lost.

Is "well" just what the cool kids are saying these days?
It sounds a bit old-timey.

Edited Saturday at 12:23 PM by shapeshifter

[Zella]

I don't think that's a local idiom. It's not unfamiliar to me. If you look up "well and truly," it also yields multiple results, including book titles and dictionary entries. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/well-and-truly

Edited Saturday at 03:03 PM by Zella

[Milburn Stone]

Like @Zella, I've heard "well and truly" a lot in pretty informed circles. 

FWIW, the context in which I hear it most is "We're well and truly f**ked."

[annzeepark914]

I just bought a birthday card. On the front of the (pretty pink) card are three words:

Happy

Happier

Happiest

Inside is a simple msg (something like, I hope you have a wonderful special day) This card is right up my alley. It really bugs me to hear people say something like, "I hope you have a more happy birthday" (not a great example, but you know what I mean 😉). I hear stuff like this frequently on TV news, talk shows, weather reports (& sometimes I yell a correction!) 

[Quof]

When discussing family circumstances, I recently said "I'm the younger child."  I got some puzzled looks.  "I have an older sibling."  More confusion.   "My parents had 2 children.   I'm the second of 2 children" 

Finally, someone said "So you're the youngest!"

"Nope!" I replied.

They were well and truly confused.

 

[Absolom]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is "well" just what the cool kids are saying these days?
It sounds a bit old-timey.

It is an old saying.  I heard it as a child and I'm a senior citizen.  My guess is the well is related to lost as in it is well lost or completely lost.

[fairffaxx]

At this site, the origin of the phrase "well and truly" is explained as follows:

Historically, the idiom was commonly used in legal contexts to describe the conclusion of a trial or case. When a verdict was reached, it was said that justice had been served “well and truly.” This usage dates back to medieval times when trials were conducted under strict rules and procedures.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

At this site, the origin of the phrase "well and truly" is explained as follows:

Historically, the idiom was commonly used in legal contexts to describe the conclusion of a trial or case. When a verdict was reached, it was said that justice had been served “well and truly.” This usage dates back to medieval times when trials were conducted under strict rules and procedures.

Thank you!
In that context "well" makes sense to me as an adverb describing the quality of the process of the legal deliberations. 
I don't have the same sense of the use of "well" in this context: "The phone and wallet disappeared and didn’t come back. They seemed well and truly lost" (Melissa Kirsch, nytimes.com/2025/02/22/briefing/lost-causes.html).

But I suppose if one is familiar with "well and truly" as an idiom, the meaning is clear from usage, if not meaning and/or grammar.

Edited Yest. at 01:07 AM by shapeshifter

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But I suppose if one is familiar with "well and truly" as an idiom, the meaning is clear from usage,

Yes, I've heard it all my life.  Like another poster, I've often heard/read it in the context of something negative, like the bad kind of "well and truly fucked", but not exclusively -- "well and truly" for emphasis - similar to completely, thoroughly, etc. - is used for neutral and positive things as well.

[EtheltoTillie]

Someone on another thread posted about the Apostrophe Protection Society. Bwah ha ha. 

It also belongs here. 

https://www.apostrophe.org.uk/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_Protection_Society

Edited 12 hours ago by EtheltoTillie