S01.E04: Masters of War

[Nick24]

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FIGHTER’S INSTINCT – After the details of a veteran’s death don’t add up, Carlos (JoJo Fleites) brings everyone in to investigate and he shares a detail about his past that makes John (Drake Rodger) see him in a new light. Mary (Meg Donnelly) finds an unexpected ally who has been hot on the trail of this monster and Latika (Nida Khurshid) tries to help Mary heal and find closure with someone she lost. Meanwhile, John’s habit of running headfirst into danger leaves Millie (Bianca Kajlich) worried for her son. John Kretchmer directed the episode written by Julia Cooperman (#104). Original Airdate 11/1/2022.

[AnimeMania]

Next new episode: November 15, 2022     

[Nick24]

I love Millie. I love her very much. The way she's been written so far is great and I love what the actress has been doing, too.

But oh my, the final scene in here was really heartbreaking. We can see all that pain of hers because of the fact, that she realizes how much John is suffering now, she wants to help him, but she can't, all she can do is to hug him at the end, which is both trying to comfort John and kinda admitting her own helplessness. 

I also like the way Millie was behaving in the hospital. Very badass. More Millie, please!

John/Carlos bonding was another bright point. I liked their interactions and that they had different approaches on how to deal with the trauma. I think Carlos's attitude seems to be healthier at this point, because he is more open to work on his issue than John. I hope Carlos will be able to help John to deal with the trauma in some way, because John really needs help. His trauma is very fresh, and he can't get over it alone. Well, honestly, I'm not sure he'll ever get over that PTSD, because we all know what is waiting for him in the future, which makes all happening now even more tragic.

Both Jojo and Drake delivered some fascinating performances in there.

As for John, looks like there were more parallels between John and Dean tonight. That god John was fighting against in this episode was talking something that John and he are alike, and John would have to use this anger to fight the Akrida. We've heard a lot of similar sentiments about Dean from many characters on SPN, that the anger is what was driving Dean, that he was like them and on and on. However, we all know that this isn't the truth, and Dean had been proving that all along. John seemed to be considering the god's words (e.g., just like Dean was considering Gordon's suggestion to use that black hole inside in 2.03), so I hope that at least in the regard of fighting the Akrida John won't let that anger overcome him.

All in all, another solid episode. 

[AnimeMania]

Everybody seemed very raw in this episode, something we haven't seen in the previous episodes. It made me wonder if this episode was meant to be seen earlier than it's current position, especially since there was no Ada or mention of Ada in the episode. But it couldn't be an earlier episode because that reporter guy was in the episode and he is a recent addition. It seems like the reporter guy has been traveling all over and probably doesn't live in the same city as Mary, so it would be hard for them to have a relationship.

[Pondlass1]

What’s with all the heavy eyebrows?  That wasn’t the fashion back then.

I do hope this gets picked up somehow on a half decent streaming service where things can let rip.  I’m not in the TV business, but Jensen’s original idea is probably good.   It’s just stuck in the usual tightly wrapped American run of the mill offerings where things are predictable and procedural and all tied up in a pink bow when credits roll.  So far from actual sucky life.  Unfortunately Standards and practices inhibit anything original or exciting on network TV.  
 
Yet somehow Supernatural rose above the stilted CW.  Sam and Dean were broken, dark misfits and fascinating right from the start and  we loved them because they were different. Plus chemistry of course.

The idea is good, but a lot of work needs to be done here.  And freedom to break free of network conformity. Jensen, can you move this to the freedom of a streaming platform?  
 

[MAK]

This episode was really good. They seem to be getting better and better. 

Can't say enough about Drake Rodger and Bianca Kajlich, talk about shining!

So Carlos is also a veteran. I knew there was so much more to his story.  So many people had complained that he was going to be a stereotype hippie stoner etc. I'm looking forward to getting to know him even more. And he follows through and goes back to therapy! JoJo seems to have truly embodied Carlos.

So much to unpack with John. Hot-headed and running straight towards the threat since he was four. Calms his freaking out and nerves by punching something. Taking everything and just pushing it down. Dean was always shown to be angry and so was Sam (at least in the beginning). I don't know if it was actually mentioned in SPN, but I always believed that the Heaven/Hell brigades stoked Sam's anger so that he will break off from Dean and eventually accept Lucifer and be willing to bash in his brother's head. Did Lucifer say something to the effect like "Yes Sam, let out all of your anger, it just makes you stronger for me." ?

How much of Dean seems to have come from Millie? Actions more than words. Loved how she knocked the amphora out of Lata's hands. Actions! You can study it later. The last scene was so sad. 

12 hours ago, Nick24 said:

We can see all that pain of hers because of the fact, that she realizes how much John is suffering now, she wants to help him, but she can't, all she can do is to hug him at the end, which is both trying to comfort John and kinda admitting her own helplessness. 

This reminded me so much of Dean, when Sam was going through the Hallucifer stage and the trials. He saw Sam suffering and knew he needed help but was pretty much helpless.

Meg is growing on me. I don't think we've had a truly Mary centered episode yet. Maybe there's one coming up. But Mary does remind me of Sam.  She was avoiding thinking about her loss, but since it was a shared loss (with Lata and Carlos) she actually listened to her friends and is trying to find the good/positive in what they do. She does not seem to be on the "saving people hunting things" bandwagon. More of an acceptance that this is her life, at least for now. Much like Sam in later seasons, "My family hunts, so I hunt, but won't do it without my brother" (not exact quote).

Lata and the reporter were cute. Don't know if we're going to see him again.

[iMonrey]

What year is this supposed to take place in? The early 1970s, right? First of all, the cars look like they're from the 50s. I mean I guess some people still had old cars in the 70s but it looks like every car we see is vintage and it looks like a lazy way of short-handing "this is in the past" but they didn't get the decade quite right. We should lots of Toyotas and Datsuns and such.

Second of all, having a character as openly "flamboyant" as Carlos in this decade feels very anachronistic. Especially in Kansas. Even today, someone like Carlos would probably get beaten up going into a veteran's support group. Sad but true.

I do like Drake Rodger. He looks nothing like Jeffrey Dean Morgan but interestingly enough he looks like a combination of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padelecki. I can see either/both in his face and eyes.

Still not sold on Meg Donnelly's acting though.

[Bergamot]

12 minutes ago, MAK said:

This episode was really good. They seem to be getting better and better. 

I agree! We got some interesting insights into the characters in this one. I will need to watch it again.

One thing that I like about this show is that you don't need to have watched Supernatural to watch and enjoy it -- but if you were a fan of Supernatural, the prequel sheds light on what we saw of the characters in the original series, and makes them even more interesting in retrospect. I feel like I now understand better why Mary secretly went back to hunting after Dean was born, and why it is not surprising that John raised his sons like warriors. Not that it makes the choices that they made okay, but it adds depth to their characterizations.

[ahrtee]

This was the first episode that really grabbed me.  It usually takes a while for me to get invested in a show (unless there was something compelling that started me watching) and usually what grabs me is new insight into a character.  I'd equate this to Faith, where we got to see what Dean was going through and put it together with where he was coming from to get a more complete picture of the character rather than the gung-ho, smartass, often annoying character he showed to others.  This episode really opened up both John and Carlos to me.  Still not sure about Mary, though.  There's something about her that seems confused/confusing.  

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

What year is this supposed to take place in? The early 1970s, right? First of all, the cars look like they're from the 50s. I mean I guess some people still had old cars in the 70s but it looks like every car we see is vintage and it looks like a lazy way of short-handing "this is in the past" but they didn't get the decade quite right. We should lots of Toyotas and Datsuns and such.

Second of all, having a character as openly "flamboyant" as Carlos in this decade feels very anachronistic. Especially in Kansas. Even today, someone like Carlos would probably get beaten up going into a veteran's support group. Sad but true.

In 1972, most of the cars that I remember were American made except for Volkswagens (full disclosure: I was actually in college in 1972 so, while all this is familiar to me, the anachronisms tend to annoy me--like Mary's eyebrows. 😊 ) Now, I wasn't a car person so pretty much all the cars looked the same to me except for things like large tailfins and running boards, which I remember from the '50s and early '60s.  In the early '70s, at least among college students, there weren't a lot of new cars, mostly VWs, Pintos and Chevys.  I don't remember anyone I knew even knowing about Japanese cars, and I was in NY, not Kansas.  I'd think Kansas would have a lot of pickups, which looked the same for decades.  

I sort of agree about Carlos, at least in a veteran's support group; but I knew a lot of hippie/stoners (including some who had served in Viet Nam) who dressed and talked that way, and (aside from talking so openly about being gay) I think he's pretty accurate.  

I'm enjoying this, much more than I expected. 

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Everybody seemed very raw in this episode, something we haven't seen in the previous episodes. It made me wonder if this episode was meant to be seen earlier than it's current position, especially since there was no Ada or mention of Ada in the episode. But it couldn't be an earlier episode because that reporter guy was in the episode and he is a recent addition. It seems like the reporter guy has been traveling all over and probably doesn't live in the same city as Mary, so it would be hard for them to have a relationship.

No I don't believe it was.  It's the usual, generally speaking when you first meet people you don't get to know all their secrets and weaknesses and pain, that comes as you get to know them.  We're getting to know them, they are getting to know each other better so it makes sense that the rawness would come out after a bit.  Seems to me that Robbie, Jensen, et al have been pretty careful in how they planned this so I don't think it's any kind of change.

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What year is this supposed to take place in? The early 1970s, right? First of all, the cars look like they're from the 50s. I mean I guess some people still had old cars in the 70s but it looks like every car we see is vintage and it looks like a lazy way of short-handing "this is in the past" but they didn't get the decade quite right. We should lots of Toyotas and Datsuns and such.

Second of all, having a character as openly "flamboyant" as Carlos in this decade feels very anachronistic. Especially in Kansas. Even today, someone like Carlos would probably get beaten up going into a veteran's support group. Sad but true.

I do like Drake Rodger. He looks nothing like Jeffrey Dean Morgan but interestingly enough he looks like a combination of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padelecki. I can see either/both in his face and eyes.

Still not sold on Meg Donnelly's acting though.

The cars are mixed which would be accurate, most of them do not look like they are from the 50s but there are decent number of 60s cars which makes sense as it's only 1972 just like it would be unusual to see a lot of 2015/19 cars in a show made this year.

There are always people who break the mold and Carlos probably does get his share of jerks BUT he's a hunter and can take care of the jerks because he knows how to fight. They probably usually end up very sorry they messed with him. Often there is more tension when there are are more "minorities" than when there are only a few, because then the majority worries they may be pushed out or taken over but one or two they can let it slide or treat like a novelty. Not saying it's good or right but it's not unheard of.  Also Carlos did tell a pretty revealing story about himself right away and it probably made it easier for them to just see him as another vet.

They may just think he's a hippie, to them guys with long hair and frilly clothes were always suspect but it didn't mean they went around beating up every hippie they saw. Many young vets went all out hippie after they got back, as a reaction against what they'd been through.

When he basically made it known to Millie he was bisexual or homosexual, it looked to me almost like it was a challenge, he was trying to be light but he kind of tensed up, like he wants to be himself and be honest and doesn't want to put it off but it's also his friend's mother and he doesn't know how she's going to react. I thought that was some really good subtle acting on Jojo's part. I don't think he just announces he's gay to everyone.  Unless I missed some dialogue I don't recall him saying anything about that in the Vet's group.  

I don't get the issue with Meg's eyebrows, not everyone has thin brows, She has naturally thick eyebrows, as do Jojo and Nida, both whom have even thicker brows. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by tessathereaper

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't get the issue with Meg's eyebrows, not everyone has thin brows, She has naturally thick eyebrows, as do Jojo and Nida, both whom have even thicker brows. 

I have no issue with thick eyebrows.  I have 'em, too (and was embarrassed by them back in the '70s and tried to tweeze the heck out of them but gave up because it was too much trouble.)  My problem with Meg's is the black eyebrows with blonde hair.  The 70s was about being and looking natural, and that sure wasn't it.  

Edited November 2, 2022 by ahrtee

[iMonrey]

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I don't think he just announces he's gay to everyone.  Unless I missed some dialogue I don't recall him saying anything about that in the Vet's group.  

I chose to use the word "flamboyant" because he would read gay to almost anyone. I don't want to belabor the point because I actually do like the character and the actor. I just have to overlook the fact that his being so "himself" in that time period is not realistic. Homosexuality was still considered a mental disorder in the early 70s. And, again, not to put too fine a point on it, but they're in Kansas.

Quote

There are always people who break the mold and Carlos probably does get his share of jerks BUT he's a hunter and can take care of the jerks because he knows how to fight. They probably usually end up very sorry they messed with him. 

That's a fair point. But if we never see anyone so much as giving him the side-eye, it's just not a realistic depiction of how someone like him would be treated in that time period. We're looking at this through present-day sensibilities and A LOT has changed since then WRT LGBTQ people.

[tessathereaper]

21 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I have no issue with thick eyebrows.  I have 'em, too (and was embarrassed by them back in the '70s and tried to tweeze the heck out of them but gave up because it was too much trouble.)  My problem with Meg's is the black eyebrows with blonde hair.  The 70s was about being and looking natural, and that sure wasn't it.  

I'm pretty sure she'd hardly be the only teenage girl who didn't die her eyebrows the same color as her hair.  And there are some people who have dark eyebrows and light hair(and some people who have dark hair and light eyebrows).

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I chose to use the word "flamboyant" because he would read gay to almost anyone. I don't want to belabor the point because I actually do like the character and the actor. I just have to overlook the fact that his being so "himself" in that time period is not realistic. Homosexuality was still considered a mental disorder in the early 70s. And, again, not to put too fine a point on it, but they're in Kansas.

That's a fair point. But if we never see anyone so much as giving him the side-eye, it's just not a realistic depiction of how someone like him would be treated in that time period. We're looking at this through present-day sensibilities and A LOT has changed since then WRT LGBTQ people.

Or he may just "read" like a hippie. Hippies weren't particularly liked in the early 70's either by small minded types("Sign said long haired freaky people need not apply..." as the song went), still doesn't mean they'd get beat up in a mental health group.  I was kid in the 70's but I was around, I know things were different.

[tennisgurl]

Its funny watching Mary and company being so shocked at fighting a god considering that by the end of Supernatural, her sons could hardly throw a stick without hitting several deities of various pantheons. Another good episode, it gave us a lot of interesting insights into John and Carlos, especially Carlos who don't know really well yet and gave us more screen time for Millie, who's totally awesome. Its too bad that apparently Sam and Dean got to know her, they would have really gotten along with her and she could have probably helped reign John in when he was losing himself in his grief. 

Nice getting some more backstory for Carlos, and that he and John got to bond over being veterans, I hope that one day he and John can really have a talk. It seems like Carlos has a much more healthy way of dealing with his trauma, he's willing to give therapy a try while John isn't quite there yet. Not that going to a support group is the only way to deal with trauma, but its clear that he needs to do something at least. That ending was so heartbreaking, Millie so badly wants to help but knows that there is only so much she can do.

I like that we are mixing monsters of the week with the myth arc, its working well so far. 

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Its funny watching Mary and company being so shocked at fighting a god considering that by the end of Supernatural, her sons could hardly throw a stick without hitting several deities of various pantheons. Another good episode, it gave us a lot of interesting insights into John and Carlos, especially Carlos who don't know really well yet and gave us more screen time for Millie, who's totally awesome. Its too bad that apparently Sam and Dean got to know her, they would have really gotten along with her and she could have probably helped reign John in when he was losing himself in his grief. 

This makes me wonder what is going to happen to Millie. I really hope they're not gonna kill her off. I don't want this. I do want Dean to meet Millie. I don't care how. I've just realized that I absolutely need Dean/Millie scene. Millie is an excellent example of a strong female character, who's is capable of being a badass, but also can show love and genuine concern for the others. 

[Linderhill]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:10 PM, tessathereaper said:

The cars are mixed which would be accurate, most of them do not look like they are from the 50s but there are decent number of 60s cars which makes sense as it's only 1972 just like it would be unusual to see a lot of 2015/19 cars in a show made this year.

I also grew up in the 70s and my family owned a Pontiac dealership so I became very familiar with cars of the period.  My first car was a hand-me-down '71 LeMans from my sister to take back to college my senior year, when the car was over 10 years old.  Do we know what model the car Mary is driving?  

As for the eyebrows, I remember watching my older sister plucking her thickish dark eyebrows into a thin line  when she was in high school and she was very much 70s fashion conscious.  (that silly white dress Mary wore a couple of episodes ago was definitely a no no in our area, the northeast).  What has bothered me more was that big head of hair that Drake is sporting.  How long has John been home from Viet Nam, have we been told?

Enjoyed the episode a lot.  This was the first episode I really "felt" connected to Supernatural.  

[tessathereaper]

10 hours ago, Linderhill said:

I also grew up in the 70s and my family owned a Pontiac dealership so I became very familiar with cars of the period.  My first car was a hand-me-down '71 LeMans from my sister to take back to college my senior year, when the car was over 10 years old.  Do we know what model the car Mary is driving?  

As for the eyebrows, I remember watching my older sister plucking her thickish dark eyebrows into a thin line  when she was in high school and she was very much 70s fashion conscious.  (that silly white dress Mary wore a couple of episodes ago was definitely a no no in our area, the northeast).  What has bothered me more was that big head of hair that Drake is sporting.  How long has John been home from Viet Nam, have we been told?

Enjoyed the episode a lot.  This was the first episode I really "felt" connected to Supernatural.  

He had just gotten back in the pilot.  I think he said he'd been back about a week?

If you at pictures of soldiers in Vietnam they often had some fairly long hair, not unlike John's, including Marines.  It's really only relatively recently the military has become such a stickler, it used to be they shaved your head for basic but then you could just wear a regular style afterwards.(obviously not real long but within the normal styles, even if you look at soldiers from WWII they usually had the normal longish top, shortish sides that was fashionable for most men at the time). Just as a quickish example, all the guys in this photo without hats on have pretty much John-length hair:

[PAForrest]

Late with the thoughts, but unsurprisingly I'm just enjoying the ride here, especially knowing we only have 13 episodes - hopefully, that is, for this season. Fingers crossed. Weirdly the show feels like Supernatural, but at the same time very much like its own thing in its own universe - which, until we get the reveals in the last episode, is how I'm looking at it.

The big surprise in this episode was Carlos's backstory as a vet, how he got arrested, did the service option, and how despite his hippie love, peace, and drugs attitude, he carries almost the same amount of PTSD from the war that John does. But unlike John he doesn't carry the anger, and is more open to seeking help.

Really loving Millie and the way she's John's rock. Obviously she always had to be as a single mother, but it's very cool that we're getting a solid glimpse into her as a person where in Supernatural it's always been about the fathers. That last scene was heartbreaking.

I was afraid Mary's movie date was going to be a bad guy of some kind, so it was a nice twist that he's someone with a real job who could actually be helpful occasionally.

I wonder where Ada was this week?

[Linderhill]

9 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

He had just gotten back in the pilot.  I think he said he'd been back about a week?

If you at pictures of soldiers in Vietnam they often had some fairly long hair, not unlike John's, including Marines.  It's really only relatively recently the military has become such a stickler, it used to be they shaved your head for basic but then you could just wear a regular style afterwards.(obviously not real long but within the normal styles, even if you look at soldiers from WWII they usually had the normal longish top, shortish sides that was fashionable for most men at the time). Just as a quickish example, all the guys in this photo without hats on have pretty much John-length hair:

I know how soldiers and sailors wore their hair in WWII, my father and uncle served there.  Do we know what branch these gentlemen are in?   I know in the field that things are somewhat relaxed but from what I remember about men returning from Nam, they cleaned up, shaved, trimmed, etc. for their transport home.  Not that it matters, I'm watching nevertheless.  John's abundant hair was one of the first things that stood out to me from the beginning.

[67Chevy]

Why is the CW's streaming service such crap?

The constant buffering along with the ads  every five minutes is killing me.  

I like the show so far.  John is, for me, by far the most intriguing and I think, maybe, this coulf be some of what Jensen is trying to accomplish.

John's character was utterly trashed in later seasons and I wonder if they are (in part) trying to undo some of that damage.

I can see shades of the John we see later on here.

Where I think they are struggling some is in the exposition. Jensen and Jared somehow managed to make these scenes seem less like an info dump, which is no easy task.

Here, those scenes are still coming off as a bit clunky and stiff.  The actors are talented so hopefully this is something that will improve over time.

[FlickChick]

20 hours ago, 67Chevy said:

Where I think they are struggling some is in the exposition. Jensen and Jared somehow managed to make these scenes seem less like an info dump, which is no easy task.

Here, those scenes are still coming off as a bit clunky and stiff.  The actors are talented so hopefully this is something that will improve over time.

Yes, they're newbies to the SN world and its exposition. I think we tend to forget that Jensen and Jared started out in a similar vein but grew so comfortable with their respective roles that it seemed like they never struggled with any part of them. When I watch early (S1, S2) episodes, I see a very inexperienced Jared since he was so young and didn't have as much TV drama experience under his belt. Of course he grew with the role over time. Unfortunately, these actors are only getting 13 episodes (this season anyway) of experience. We'll see where they go with it.

[7kstar]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:52 PM, Nick24 said:

love Millie. I love her very much. The way she's been written so far is great and I love what the actress has been doing, too.

But oh my, the final scene in here was really heartbreaking. We can see all that pain of hers because of the fact, that she realizes how much John is suffering now, she wants to help him, but she can't, all she can do is to hug him at the end, which is both trying to comfort John and kinda admitting her own helplessness. 

I also like the way Millie was behaving in the hospital. Very badass. More Millie, please!

I loved how they allowed the scene to end without any words.  Allowing the action to explain it all.  Such a strong ending.  I love how strong Millie has been written.

I wish Mary equalled it for me.  But she is improving.  I can't figure out if it is the writing or acting, but this might be the first ep; I would willingly watch again.

On 11/2/2022 at 5:17 PM, iMonrey said:

I chose to use the word "flamboyant" because he would read gay to almost anyone. I don't want to belabor the point because I actually do like the character and the actor. I just have to overlook the fact that his being so "himself" in that time period is not realistic. Homosexuality was still considered a mental disorder in the early 70s. And, again, not to put too fine a point on it, but they're in Kansas.

One point, in this time period you didn't talk about gay.  And most wouldn't even think of a person being gay.  It was in the closet around adults.  So the grownups would see a hippie/stoner with disregard to the rules of society.  Also, a heathen that needed saving, especially in a small town.  You can't apply today's standards to the past.  I would expect to see Carlos doing a lot more drugs.  Guys' hair was longer as the 70s went on.

In the 70s we had a banna wagon, the nickname for the Volkswagen bus.  Otherwise it was mainly American cars which you kept for a long time.  You didn't go buy a new car as you kept the old for a while.  I would expect to see trucks,  but I know we had a car and a van.  Dad got the truck when we needed one for the trailer. 

I grew up with keeping a car for at least 10 years.  My first car I had for 13 and it was used.

On 11/4/2022 at 7:36 PM, Linderhill said:

Do we know what branch these gentlemen are in?   I know in the field that things are somewhat relaxed but from what I remember about men returning from Nam, they cleaned up, shaved, trimmed, etc. for their transport home.

Carlos is Navy by his uniform.  John was Marines by supernatural, so I would guess it still is that.

Depends on how what happened when they left Nam.  Just read one guy's account, his troop was dirty and stinky and not allowed to shower until he got on the base.  Plus he kept getting pretty nasty greetings as they called him baby killer and etc. So John may not have cut his hair to the standard we would expect today.  Some might though.  So I'll give it a drama license for making the story interesting vs being totally spot on.

Just food for thought.  In many time periods, the costumes weren't period pieces.  Instead, they were to reflect the fashion to wear.  An even today, a period piece, usually has elements of today's looks woven into the production.  It's really rare to see a true period piece.               

I thought this one had some nice character moments, and a few surprises.  I hope they can keep it up. 

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

One point, in this time period you didn't talk about gay.  And most wouldn't even think of a person being gay.  It was in the closet around adults.  So the grownups would see a hippie/stoner with disregard to the rules of society.  Also, a heathen that needed saving, especially in a small town.  You can't apply today's standards to the past.  I would expect to see Carlos doing a lot more drugs.  Guys' hair was longer as the 70s went on.

Hair got longer starting in the late 60s and kept on going through the 70s.  There were all different lengths, from just below the ear to down the shoulders and back (or outward, for curly hair 😊) so John's hair would have been fine for the "just growing out of military" en route to the longer, hippie look, or for those who weren't comfortable with shoulder-length or longer.  Ear length was considered short and, neatly trimmed, was usual for businessmen.  

By the early 70s, people rarely talked about gay but it wasn't unknown or in the closet, at least in the East.  I remember the first time (about 1971) I saw two men kissing on the main street of the small town I was in.  They got a few doubletakes, but nobody said or did anything, just shrugged and moved on.  This was in NY (actually in New Paltz, a small upstate college town not at all like the one in Provenance, and not too far from where JDM lives now.)  It was, of course, the 70s, not 2005.  And it *was* a college town; but so is Lawrence.   

[7kstar]

53 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

By the early 70s, people rarely talked about gay but it wasn't unknown or in the closet, at least in the East.  I remember the first time (about 1971) I saw two men kissing on the main street of the small town I was in. 

I grew up in a strong Southern Baptist small town and only in the music and drama areas in college in the 80s did I get exposed to someone being gay.  Had a gay relative, and we talked about how even the gays would have an issue with the openly gay guys.  His words not mine.  He was the only relative that was supportive of me trying to make it in the acting industry.  Unfortunately, like many...aids was a killer.

Really, the 60s is probably the last era where everyone dressed the same and if you talked with someone that was younger in that time period, they might disagree.  LOL>

It's why I'm not really focusing on the hairstyles and clothing.  As long as it gives the flavor, I can either roll eyes and move on or ignore it.  So far nothing's really stood out and pulled me out of the story costume wise.  Now some acting and story parts sure, but I expect that the first season.

[Linderhill]

On 11/5/2022 at 11:32 PM, 7kstar said:

Carlos is Navy by his uniform.  John was Marines by supernatural, so I would guess it still is that.

FYI, I do know what branches Carlos and John were in, I recognized the uniforms and they even informed us what branches they were in.  I was referring to the photo posted.

[tessathereaper]

Not sure, probably the army but I did see a photo of Marine snipers with very similar hair but I didn't want to post a photo of guys pointing real guns in a wartime situation(even though it was clearly on base so they weren't actually targeting a person) so I settled on this one instead.  IMO John's hair is perfectly fine for what he was and where he was going.  He finished his tour, left the country, was discharged and went home(after a visit to Murph's family).  I doubt in real life anyone really would have cared all that much about his hair. When he combed it and put product in it it would be suitably tame looking.