S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

Episode Synopsis:

Six years later. With the Driftmark succession suddenly critical, Rhaenyra attempts to strike a bargain with Rhaenys.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books to date. 

[steelyis]

If I didn't know better—and I do know better—I would swear Aemond is Daemon's kid. Those chins! Those psychopathic tendencies! 😆

[SeanC]

48 minutes ago, steelyis said:

If I didn't know better—and I do know better—I would swear Aemond is Daemon's kid. Those chins! Those psychopathic tendencies! 😆

Also, his name is just Daemon with one letter rearranged.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

If I didn't know better—and I do know better—I would swear Aemond is Daemon's kid. Those chins! Those psychopathic tendencies! 😆

Aemond is the Greens Daemon. They make a big deal of it in the book.  He is Daemon's nemesis.  I think Aemond is worse in a variety of ways but I am biased towards Daemon and the Blacks.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Aemond is the Greens Daemon.

Oh, he is definitely Daemon, the  Next Generation alright!

[Cristofle]

So is the idea with the prophecy now that even if Rhaenyra ultimately shares it, it's not with anyone who survives, so it's lost at least to the Targaryens in full until Rhaegar stumbles across it while studying? I know GRRM is supposed to currently be more involved with HOTD than he was with later episodes of Game of Thrones. 

Watching Helaena's innocence in the scene where she's dancing with Jace is heartbreaking, knowing her ultimate fate. She was kind of freaking me out as a child because she seemed so lost in her mind and fixated on creepy insects, heh, but I can see how tragic her life is here. Her husband-brother rapes every servant girl he gets his hands on, including the one who apparently dresses their children, and from what she implied in the dinner, he rapes her too. It was bittersweet to watch Jace be kind to her, because she won't get much of that going forward. Also, she would have been so much better off if Alicent had betrothed her to Jace, bastard or no. There's no indication Jace enjoys cruelty. 

[Dac22]

So with Viserys dead, does that mean I should give up on Daeron appearing on the show? 

Daeron would have obviously been born by this point, but this would seem to be the episode where we would have seen him at the very least. I mean, he hasn't even been mentioned yet, has he? 

If so, it would be a shame as he was my favorite of Alicent's kids.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Dac22

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, Dac22 said:

So with Viserys dead, does that mean I should give up on Daeron appearing on the show? 

Daeron would have obviously been born by this point, but this would seem to be the episode where we would have seen him at the very least. I mean, he hasn't even been mentioned yet, has he? 

If so, it would be a shame as he was my favorite of Alicent's kids.

Viserys didn't look like someone who would have been able to have sex recently, in the past few years.

[Affogato]

On 10/10/2022 at 5:46 AM, Cristofle said:

So is the idea with the prophecy now that even if Rhaenyra ultimately shares it, it's not with anyone who survives, so it's lost at least to the Targaryens in full until Rhaegar stumbles across it while studying? I know GRRM is supposed to currently be more involved with HOTD than he was with later episodes of Game of Thrones. 

I had the impression Aegon IV knew about the prophesy,  right? And his circle, including (to be Maester) Aemond.  Rhaegar was a baby when the spell went wrong, if I remember. Aemond figures the 'prince' was Dany, because of the dragons, but it turned out to be (probably) Jon. That means there must have been something accessible to them.

In show terms I think we are weaving something like the 'marvel universe' where, if there is a show about Jon, he will run into the Adversary and defeat them as the Prince who was Promised. At this time I'd think maybe this is like the book plan, also, but how would I know?

Edited October 11, 2022 by Affogato

[Cristofle]

I feel like the prophecy in general is like...around. Melisandre thought it was Stannis, after all. It's just this very specific Targaryen dagger thing with the words on it that gets passed down from family member to family member seems unclear. Rhaegar takes it incredibly literally. Almost certainly far too literally, lol, to the point of it being ludicrous.  

Since GRRM didn't intend for the dagger to be as important as it was IIRC, I don't think this is even something he considered in the books, that this is how Rhaegar became so convinced that the prophecy must come from his line. But it may impact future shows, hence my curiosity. I'm from the Eeyore camp that this is the best we'll ever get if we were not satisfied with the show ending and want SOMETHING else as book readers.

[Meredith Quill]

A number of posts have been removed due to mentioning a political figure or quoting a post that does so. This is a clear violation of the site's politics policy. Further violations will result in warnings or suspensions.

[Dac22]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Viserys didn't look like someone who would have been able to have sex recently, in the past few years.

In the books, Daeron is slightly older than Lucerys. 

He was born in the same year as Rhaenyra's wedding to Laenor, so Viserys was still able-ish around that time on the show. That's why I figure we would have at least gotten a mention of him by now if he were to exist on the show. 

edit: According to Martin's blog, I just saw that Daeron does exist so we will probably see him on the show at some point. Still strange to have a 14/15 year-old kid pop up and act like he's been part of the family the whole time.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Dac22

[steelyis]

IMO, it seems to me the PtB never intended to tell a story about two very, very flawed families murdering each other for power with anything resembling an even hand. Instead, they're doing the absolute worse thing they could do as storytellers: They are loudly proclaiming who their audience should care about and root for instead of letting the story and characters speak for themselves. And, IMO, Daeron's inclusion would have helped to balance things out, and made the show-runners biases less obvious.

[Cristofle]

15 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

edit: According to Martin's blog, I just saw that Daeron does exist so we will probably see him on the show at some point. Still strange to have a 14/15 year-old kid pop up and act like he's been part of the family the whole time.

I've heard that he was supposed to have been mentioned by now and it was cut, leading to some suspicion that they aren't adding the character, since he doesn't appear to have been cast at this time. I don't see how they could feasibly add him at this point. "Ooops, forgot an entire child of Alicent and Viserys that has literally never been mentioned or been at any family event!" I mean, I guess they COULD - I think he was squiring at this current time in the plot - but it's hard to see how. Weren't he and Jace milk brothers? Has he been squiring literally his entire life, lol?

[absnow54]

24 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I've heard that he was supposed to have been mentioned by now and it was cut, leading to some suspicion that they aren't adding the character, since he doesn't appear to have been cast at this time.

I swear, in one of the early previews, Otto Hightower (or someone similar to him) argued that while Rhaenyra had been named heir, that was before the king had three legitimate sons, but that scene hasn't happened yet on the show. It's weird that they haven't mentioned or shown him, if they plan to include him. He should have at least been in episode 6, after the big time jump, when they were all in the Red Keep.

[Cristofle]

Just now, absnow54 said:

I swear, in one of the early previews, Otto Hightower (or someone similar to him) argued that while Rhaenyra had been named heir, that was before the king had three legitimate sons, but that scene hasn't happened yet on the show. It's weird that they haven't mentioned or shown him, if they plan to include him. He should have at least been in episode 6, after the big time jump, when they were all in the Red Keep.

I didn't realize it was TODAY that GRRM said Daeron will be included. So on the one hand, good. On the other hand, LMAO. On a scale of 1 to Daeron, how much do your parents not remember you exist?

Of course, GRRM also said his primary focus was Winds of Winter. LOL. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

On the other hand, LMAO. On a scale of 1 to Daeron, how much do your parents not remember you exist?

Viserys called Alicent "Aemma" in the previous episode, so...

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Viserys called Alicent "Aemma" in the previous episode, so...

LOL, he's not surprising given his extensive health issues and his general lack of interest in any child of his not named Rhaenyra, but no one has mentioned this poor kid for any reason. A couple lines is all it would have taken. 

[RobertDeSneero]

7 hours ago, steelyis said:

IMO, it seems to me the PtB never intended to tell a story about two very, very flawed families murdering each other for power with anything resembling an even hand. Instead, they're doing the absolute worse thing they could do as storytellers: They are loudly proclaiming who their audience should care about and root for instead of letting the story and characters speak for themselves. 

I wouldn't hate it if they build up Rhaenyra only to pull the rug out from under viewers and make her a mad queen who becomes increasingly paranoid and murderous so that the audience thinks she deserves her book ending.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

22 hours ago, Affogato said:

I had the impression Aegon IV knew about the prophesy,  right? And his circle, including (to be Maester) Aemond.  Rhaegar was a baby when the spell went wrong, if I remember. Aemond figures the 'prince' was Dany, because of the dragons, but it turned out to be (probably) Jon. That means there must have been something accessible to them.

I think you mean Aegon V, Aegon the Unlikely, aka Egg from the Dunk and Egg stories, and his brother Maester Aemon (without the D). Aegon IV was Aegon the Unworthy, their great-grandfather, an all-around nasty fellow. Yes, it was implied they tried to hatch dragons at Summerhall at least, and it went wrong. Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the same day it happened, which is likely why he initially thought he was The Prince That Was Promised after researching it, and later thought that his son Aegon was.

The jury's still out on whether the prophecy refers to Jon, Dany or both of them. They've both had signs pointing that way (Jon has a dream where his sword glows red like the real Lightbringer, Dany was born at the place of salt and smoke and has woken dragons from stone, which is apparently something Azor Ahai is supposed to do given that Mel, who doesn't know Dany's already done it, keeps trying to get Stannis to do it), and there are supposed to be three "heads" of the dragon, with no definitive answer in the books yet.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Cristofle]

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

and there are supposed to be three "heads" of the dragon, with no definitive answer in the book yet.

And how literally Rhaegar interpreted that part and his role in it was certainly a cluster - he thought he had to have a boy and two girls, and presumably at some point he assumed Jon would be the third girl, Visenya. That said, I wouldn't put it past him to insist if he had another boy, he should be named Aegon, like...just in case? LOL. That or maybe Lyanna got as wrapped up in the prophecy as Rhaegar did and named Jon Aegon herself when she found out Baby Aegon had (maybe) died. I think Jon's name really is Aegon, I don't think D&D did that part on their own. Whether that's hinting at something now, in terms of HoTD and the dreams, is a whole other thing. Obviously Viserys isn't very good at reading dreams and visions either - RIP Aemma. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Cristofle

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

And how literally Rhaegar interpreted that part and his role in it was certainly a cluster - he thought he had to have a boy and two girls, and presumably at some point he assumed Jon would be the third girl, Visenya. That said, I wouldn't put it past him to insist if he had another boy, he should be named Aegon, like...just in case? LOL. That or maybe Lyanna got as wrapped up in the prophecy as Rhaegar did and named Jon Aegon herself when she found out Baby Aegon had (maybe) died. I think Jon's name really is Aegon, I don't think D&D did that part on their own. Whether that's hinting at something now, in terms of HoTD and the dreams, is a whole other thing. Obviously Viserys isn't very good at reading dreams and visions either - RIP Aemma. 

Dany, who doesn't know the significance of what Rhaegar was talking about in her vision, muses at one point that there was no Visenya, but we don't know what Rhaegar thought or whether he cared about the gender of his third child; all he said in Dany's vision was three heads.

It's possible, but personally I think the Aegon name was just D&D compositing in the Aegon storyline from the books and I lean towards Lyanna never having named Jon. Which would have been less dramatic for their purposes.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I think you mean Aegon V, Aegon the Unlikely, aka Egg from the Dunk and Egg stories, and his brother Maester Aemon (without the D). Aegon IV was Aegon the Unworthy, their great-grandfather, an all-around nasty fellow. Yes, it was implied they tried to hatch dragons at Summerhall at least, and it went wrong. Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the same day it happened, which is likely why he initially thought he was The Prince That Was Promised after researching it, and later thought that his son Aegon was.

The jury's still out on whether the prophecy refers to Jon, Dany or both of them. They've both had signs pointing that way (Jon has a dream where his sword glows red like the real Lightbringer, Dany was born at the place of salt and smoke and has woken dragons from stone, which is apparently something Azor Ahai is supposed to do given that Mel, who doesn't know Dany's already done it, keeps trying to get Stannis to do it), and there are supposed to be three "heads" of the dragon, with no definitive answer in the book yet.

Ypu are right I can’t keep the numbers straight. 
 

in shows Dany is dead and Jon has a potential tv show, which eill need a plot. 

[rmontro]

12 hours ago, Affogato said:

in shows Dany is dead and Jon has a potential tv show, which eill need a plot. 

Dany is dead, but so was Jon, so who knows?  

One of the big weaknesses of the Game of Thrones ending was that it didn't seem to mesh well with the prophecy.  You could say well maybe the prophecy just wasn't true, but why spend all that time on it then?  The fact that they've been bringing it up repeatedly in House of the Dragon definitely makes you think they will deal with it in the Jon Snow spinoff, most likely.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

D&D outright said that Arya killing the Night King was something they came up with (explicitly they, not George) because it would be less expected than Jon or Dany doing it, so the prophecy making sense was not their priority.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

D&D outright said that Arya killing the Night King was something they came up with (explicitly they, not George) because it would be less expected than Jon or Dany doing it, so the prophecy making sense was not their priority.

Yeah, I'd say GRRM's ideas about The Long Night and the Prince(Princess) that was Promised are among what we know the least about from the show since D&D decided to be random and unexpected or whatever. Of course the prophecy won't be literal, and some of it may well become self-fulfilling on a variety of levels, but there's no way GRRM's intention was "Meh, nothing matters, here comes Arya, yayyyyyyyy."