S02.E08: It's Not Illegal

[TexasGal]

Quote

Anne and Ann’s marriage is in serious danger when Captain Sutherland arrives from Scotland determined to destroy Anne Lister’s reputation.

Airdate: 05/29/2022

Season 2 episodes are airing in the UK a few weeks earlier than in the US.  Anyone waiting for the US airing - don't enter if you don't want to be spoiled!

[Llywela]

Well, Captain Sutherland's odiousness was dialled up to maximum for this episode, what a jerk! And such a delight to see him foiled in his dastardly plans. I did enjoy watching Mr Grey so neatly taking the wind out of his sails, not only refusing to engage with his malice but taking the time to point it out to him in great detail, along with the legal repercussions he might expect if he continued. That he would simply change tack and keep trying was to be expected, of course, so I'm glad Parker came through, after all Ann's doubts about him. I do fear for Elizabeth now, though. What a brute for her to be shackled to for life.

I really felt for both Anne and Marian in their conversations - kudos to both actresses, both their pain and their love for one another was written clearly in their faces.

Every time we see Mr Washington, actor Joe Armstrong seems to look more and more like his father.

[natyxg]

On 6/5/2022 at 2:04 PM, Llywela said:

Well, Captain Sutherland's odiousness was dialled up to maximum for this episode, what a jerk!

At least he was there! The intense letter writing from the distance is just so silly to me.

Anyway, well I thought this episode was good, but at the same time a bit disappointing. Good in the sense that I thought it was more watchable and cohesive than some other episodes of the season: at least the baddie was physically there causing trouble, and the episode was consistently about two things (the Annes and the stuff about the division), instead of all over the place. But it was a bit disappointing because I felt it wasn't memorable enough for a season finale, it went out with more of a whimper than a bam for me.

Rather than providing the explosive confrontation between the Ann(e)s that might have been building inside Ann for a chunk of the season, and giving us a good follow up for it, they fight and Ann brings up Mariana, sure... but then there is ends. It's like the show wanted to show us that Ann was perceptive and not unaware of things, but in the diaries she never knew so they didn't want to invent a whole big thing about it. I don't know, I thought it was bizarre. Two episodes ago she presses to know if Anne had been in love with Eliza Raine, when that doesn't make a difference in her life, but now that this is relevant to her current life she doesn't push. Anne doesn't apologize and we don't get to hear her (Anne's) feelings about what happened, either.

After backtracking in episode one regarding Anne being in love with Ann (which I think was made clear by the end of season one) and showing her looking in love but perhaps in denial (in episode one), rather than providing closure on that regard the show seems intent on at the very least sowing doubt: choosing to have Anne masturbating thinking of Mariana right when Ann is not home, letting us hear her thoughts about Ann being "queer" and small minded and whatnot, the stuff about not introducing Ann to her friends, etc. On the one hand, there is the subtext about how she does care: she seems sad with Vere about not having children to cement her own marriage which can be read as her fearing that it won't last, she misses out on seeing Mrs. Norcliff one last time because she decides to stay with Ann until the division is done, she looks at her ring while alone in bed (after masturbating), she seems a bit shy when she asks Ann if she will still lay the foundation stone with her and if she still wants to do the wills, like the cares and is afraid of Ann's answers, and to be fair her fantasy with Mariana is not tender and we can't even see her face... but the feeling I keep getting, and this happened after episode four, too, is that the show itself just wants to be vague and might not have even made up its mind about this. The question is, will it ever? Is this potentially leading somewhere if there is a third season or will they just leave the question hanging forever? After season one being what it was, that second possibility bothers me a lot.

In the end they resolve to stay together and sure, it will always be hard. Real Ann(e)s had a difficult relationship. I just wish this season felt more like it was trying to tell me a coherent story, giving me a good drama built out of interpreting the diaries and taking a stance on them, instead of often feeling like just anecdotes from the diaries put together in order, or feeling like they're muddling the waters on purpose.

One good thing about the season, though, was the rise of Ann Walker, even though I always remember how difficult Ann from the diaries could be and hope the show holds back a bit in that regard. But it was great to see her standing up to Sutherland repeatedly, and to Ann. A far cry from season one Ann.

[Llywela]

16 minutes ago, natyxg said:

At least he was there! The intense letter writing from the distance is just so silly to me.

Accurate to the period, though. No telephones, no telegrams, and travelling long distances was not easy. Siblings living that far apart, each tied to their own commitments and responsibilities and financial constraints, would often go many years without seeing each other in the flesh - heck, even today I don't see my sister more than twice a year, since she lives at the other end of the country from me. So they wrote letters. That was how people communicated.

[natyxg]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

Accurate to the period, though. No telephones, no telegrams, and travelling long distances was not easy. Siblings living that far apart, each tied to their own commitments and responsibilities and financial constraints, would often go many years without seeing each other in the flesh - heck, even today I don't see my sister more than twice a year, since she lives at the other end of the country from me. So they wrote letters. That was how people communicated.

But this is a drama and I think that conflict through intense letter writing doesn't work. In real life Ainsworth never showed up and Anne dealt with him through letters, yet the on the show he came in person because that worked better.

[DanaK]

Good for Mrs. Sutherland for finally standing up against her husband. I hope hubby doesn’t mistreat her for it. Sly of Anne to pretend the guy being ushered in was one of the lawyers

I enjoyed the finale

[Llywela]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:01 AM, natyxg said:

But this is a drama and I think that conflict through intense letter writing doesn't work. In real life Ainsworth never showed up and Anne dealt with him through letters, yet the on the show he came in person because that worked better.

See, it worked for me, because it felt real. I liked the little devices the director used to dramatise the letter writing - the images shown, the voiceovers, I could feel the frustration of all concerned, and that helped ground the issue in the realities of the era. Because that is how business had to be conducted, and it was that frustrating, so it all rang very true to me.

3 hours ago, DanaK said:

Good for Mrs. Sutherland for finally standing up against her husband. I hope hubby doesn’t mistreat her for it. Sly of Anne to pretend the guy being ushered in was one of the lawyers

I know, right, and she didn't even have to lie about it. I hadn't noticed that the lawyer and the landscape gardener were both called Mr Grey until the moment he entered and everyone twigged the little trick Anne had played. Sutherland didn't have a leg to stand on. She let his own guilt do all the hard work for her!

I'm also a bit concerned about how badly Elizabeth will pay the price for the whole thing. I think Ann is too but there is nothing she can do about it.

[sugarbaker design]

I loved the focus on Ann and Sutherland's signatures on the papers, with that symbol (?) separating first names and surnames.  Sutherland's had a few flourishes, while Ann's was no-nonsense.

On 6/5/2022 at 2:04 PM, Llywela said:

Every time we see Mr Washington, actor Joe Armstrong seems to look more and more like his father.

I didn't know Thenardier was JA's dad!

Edited June 15, 2022 by sugarbaker design

[tennisgurl]

I absolutely cheered watching Sutherland slowly deflate as his evil scheme fell apart, especially when Mr. Grey very politely tore him a new one via legal precedent, he looked like he wanted to disappear into his chair, it was the best. Especially when he threw out the "I believe she has been...debouched" all dramatically and leaned back into the chair smugly like he was thinking "oh yeah, mic drop" only for him to get immediately told off, it was very satisfying. Good on Elizabeth for finally standing up to her husband and telling the truth, I hope that Sutherland doesn't make things too difficult for her, she deserves better than to be married to a lout like that. 

I know I have complained about the focus on period politics and land ownership, but looking at the season as a whole, it ended up working to the shows advantage. It really gave the show a feeling of time and place, and most importantly, all of the legal issues surrounding land ownership gave Ann time to really come into her own. Ann last season was such a seemingly delicate little thing, dependent on her family and later Anne, but this season she has grown a lot as a person, become more independent, taken charge of her own life, and has worked to become more of an equal in her relationship with Anne. 

Don't you dare call Marian basic Anne, she is an absolute delight! I hope that she considers staying, the show just wouldn't be the same without her and her long suffering snark.

Edited June 17, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Moxie Cat]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:36 AM, tennisgurl said:

Don't you dare call Marian basic Anne, she is an absolute delight! I hope that she considers staying, the show just wouldn't be the same without her and her long suffering snark.

I love Marian! I hated when Anne went off on her "less than" family during the church scene, and totally didn't see it coming that Mr. Abbott had rejected Marian, and not the other way around. I'm guessing that Marian's tentative departure plans are to give Gemma Whelan an "out" if the show gets renewed and films at an inconvenient time for her.

I was happy that the Ann(es) reunited at the end. If you truly considered yourself married (even without the legal trappings) at this time, you didn't just split up and move back home. The fact that Ann slowly moved past her anger over the course of the episode and stayed seemed to show that she does feel married.

Anyone know the state of a potential third season? I feel like this show needs at least one season more.

[Chicken Fingers]

I need at least one season more, even if it's just humdrum everyday life. I watch and rewatch for the sets and costumes. 

[gingerella]

On 6/15/2022 at 7:36 AM, tennisgurl said:

I absolutely cheered watching Sutherland slowly deflate as his evil scheme fell apart, especially when Mr. Grey very politely tore him a new one via legal precedent, he looked like he wanted to disappear into his chair, it was the best. Especially when he threw out the "I believe she has been...debouched" all dramatically and leaned back into the chair smugly like he was thinking "oh yeah, mic drop" only for him to get immediately told off, it was very satisfying. Good on Elizabeth for finally standing up to her husband and telling the truth, I hope that Sutherland doesn't make things too difficult for her, she deserves better than to be married to a lout like that. 

I know I have complained about the focus on period politics and land ownership, but looking at the season as a whole, it ended up working to the shows advantage. It really gave the show a feeling of time and place, and most importantly, all of the legal issues surrounding land ownership gave Ann time to really come into her own. Ann last season was such a seemingly delicate little thing, dependent on her family and later Anne, but this season she has grown a lot as a person, become more independent, taken charge of her own life, and has worked to become more of an equal in her relationship with Anne. 

Don't you dare call Marian basic Anne, she is an absolute delight! I hope that she considers staying, the show just wouldn't be the same without her and her long suffering snark.

Yes to your entire post @tennisgurl, but especially the bolded parts. I was feeling trepidation whilst watching Sutherland try to turn Parker against Anne and I kept thinking, no way will he go against her, he's rather like a father figure to her - the business savvy father she wished she'd had. How could he turn on her? And surely he and others close to her have thought about the relationship between the two women but they are quietly accepting of it, IMO. It's a Don't Ask, Don't Tell sort of credo. But I was worried when Sutherland trying turn Mr. Grey and then BAM! Serious mic drop with his schooling about what that case was really about with the two ladies. The Ann(e)s are lucky to be surrounded by people who truly are looking out for them.

On 6/14/2022 at 12:32 AM, Llywela said:

See, it worked for me, because it felt real. I liked the little devices the director used to dramatise the letter writing - the images shown, the voiceovers, I could feel the frustration of all concerned, and that helped ground the issue in the realities of the era. Because that is how business had to be conducted, and it was that frustrating, so it all rang very true to me.

I know, right, and she didn't even have to lie about it. I hadn't noticed that the lawyer and the landscape gardener were both called Mr Grey until the moment he entered and everyone twigged the little trick Anne had played. Sutherland didn't have a leg to stand on. She let his own guilt do all the hard work for her!

I'm also a bit concerned about how badly Elizabeth will pay the price for the whole thing. I think Ann is too but there is nothing she can do about it.

Add me to the growing list of folks who felt like this season really worked because of all the little devices that, when added up, led to a convincing portrayal of how this would have unfolded during that time period. Well done show runners! As @Llywela said upthread, the back and forth letter writing between Sutherland and Ann was totally realistic and I could feel how frustrating it would become to continuously think something was resolved and then another letter arrives intimating that no, things are not resolved after all. You couldn't pick up the phone or jump in the car and drive there and confront said person quickly. You had to wait until yet another annoying missive arrived OR make an arduous journey to see the person in the flesh.

I also enjoyed how all the business bits and pieces were shown and how Ann became more knowledgeable about business, both Anne's and her own holdings, and really came into her own. She wanted her part of the estate to be contiguous so she could manage it in person, on site, more effectively, which is a good business decision. Her sister's holdings could be hither and yon because she lived so far away and it didn't matter whether all was near to one another. I enjoyed Ann combing over the division documents, trying to determine where a mistake might have been made as per Sutherland because she knew all was in order in that document because, like Anne, she actually read it in detail and know of it's exact contents. She is growing, and she is finding her footing in her life and her relationship.

Overall, I saw a lot of forward motion this season, brief as it was, and that excites me for what is coming next. I was left after watching the last episode, that there is so much more to follow with this story and I think we have legs for several more seasons to be honest, at least I hope so!

ETA: I did feel sorry for Marion when she divulged that her fellow dumped her because he didn't want to be ridiculed by others about her sister, Anne. That was so sad. It was also weird that Anne acted like, "oh, so aren't you still seeing him?" when she clearly told Marion she would kick her out of Shibden and never speak to her again if she married him. So was it okay to just be with him and not be married? So weird and controlling. I only wish Marion to go back to Market Wheaton IF we see her and Father Lister in every episode. Did we ever see the home they lived in there? I cannot recall it at all, I only remember Anne saying they were coming from Market Wheaton, or her going there or something like that. I don't remember seeing where their family home was and what it looked like. It's also interesting how annoyed at Anne her father is presently. It must be exhausting to live with Anne, always running through rooms always on her way to the next thing.

Edited June 18, 2022 by gingerella

[izabella]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I also enjoyed how all the business bits and pieces were shown and how Ann became more knowledgeable about business, both Anne's and her own holdings, and really came into her own.

I was so proud of Ann for getting smart about her holdings!  But I wish that she hadn't evicted her aging tenants last episode, with a shrug.  I don't know if I can forgive her for that.

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I did feel sorry for Marion when she divulged that her fellow dumped her because he didn't want to be ridiculed by others about her sister, Anne. That was so sad. It was also weird that Anne acted like, "oh, so aren't you still seeing him?" when she clearly told Marion she would kick her out of Shibden and never speak to her again if she married him. So was it okay to just be with him and not be married? So weird and controlling. I only wish Marion to go back to Market Wheaton IF we see her and Father Lister in every episode.

Yes, this!  I was like, wtf, Anne?!  We heard you threaten Marion about her beau!  I feel terrible for Marion.  Her hopes for her love life - and desire to be a mother - are being crushed by Anne herself and Anne's reputation.  She would be far better off if she went elsewhere, away from Anne, so she can have the life she wants.   It's not fair that only Anne be happy in love and married.  Marion deserves that, too, or at least deserves to opportunity to have that.

[kwnyc]

While it's not true that Queen Victoria said "women don't do such things" about lesbians, it is true there was no such thing as "gross indecency" for women. So, yes, there was NOTHING illegal about Ann and Anne's relationship, and I was glad to learn the history about the two women who sued for defamation and won 10,000 pounds.

And I also just checked the internets and found that both Anne Walker and Mariana visited the famous Ladies of Llangolyn who are depicted in the linked article (from the British Museum) wearing top hats!