S07.E09: How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters

[Demented Daisy]

Sam, Dean and Bobby become actual hunters when they track a creature that has been attacking people in the woods. Meanwhile, the local Biggerson's Restaurant's special sandwich is making people crazy.

 

So much happened in this episode.  It felt like the turning point in the season to me.

[catrox14]

I really like this episode. Bibbing! EWWWW!  Dean is totally crushing on Ranger Rick. Stoned!Dean will never not be funny. 

 

But really, show, really? You're just gonna retcon out a history of shitty parenting by John, Dean's psuedo-parenting and elevate Bobby beyond the sort of family friend, to basically Dean and Sam's foster Dad? And oh Bobby taught them all their tracking skills? WTF?  This is why I end up disliking Bobby, because the show made him more important than he ever was just to give Jim Beaver something to do.  BAH! Shenanigans.  Utter shenanigans, I say!

Edited August 14, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

This was a fun episode for me. I, too, enjoyed Stoned!Dean - "I think you pissed off my sandwich" - but it was good to see that both Sam and Bobby could tell that something was wrong. Normal Dean wouldn't blow off details like that on a hunt - he'd be more professional - and it was good to see both Sam and Bobby know that. The peek into the leviathan's plan was creepy, but at the same time you could start to see some more chinks in their armor.

 

I enjoyed Ranger Rick and the way the gang looked into the case. And the whole thing surrounding the turducken sandwich (and I agree with Bobby - that is not natural - hee) was amusing. The episode did take a rather scary turn of course, but in general, for me it was a solid episode.

[DittyDotDot]

I like this episode up until the Leviathans show up. I don't think this show ever learned their lesson from the first couple of seasons--the big bads are better not seen or heard monologuing until it's time to dispatch them. This is the episode where I started to think the Leviathans were going to turn out to be just as boring and non-threatening as any of their other big bad monsters. This is probably the episode where I realized I needed to watch the show more like I did in S1-S3--take the episodes individually rather than investing in the overall arc--and that's probably why I can look back on S7 more fondly than most do. There are some very fine individual episodes and most of the episodes have moments that I can find to like even if the overall episode isn't all that great. As I'm currently starting my S3 re-watch, I'm oddly reminded of how that season and this one are on a similar level for me. There I go, off on a tangent . Sorry about that, back to the episode proper...

 

So there is a lot to like about this episode. The clever dialogue (as it usually is with that clever Edlund fellow.); good characters like the waiter and Ranger Rick (one of the other reasons I generally love a good Edlund episode is he writes these one-off characters that are so vibrant, I think I could watch an entire series just about them); had-it-up-to-here-and-later-stoned Dean; and such. I'm weirdly amused by that scene where they first set up squatting in that abandoned house. I like how Dean's just had it up to here with all the cold showers and saving the world just so it can go try and find a new way to off itself. I also am never not amused when Sam has to explain Dean's references to people like he did to Bobby about the glampers. I like the show best when Sam and Dean are on the same page, but still have their own individual issues and points of view--this is what working with family is like. I also like it when the band invites others on stage, so I like Bobby and the boys working the case together--they may have went a little to far with Bobby being not only supernatural hunter-extraordinaire, but the bestest animal hunter and tracker also, though. And, I've never been too fond of how they retroactively made Bobby foster daddy when they were young, but I think I've already flogged that poor dead horse enough. Annnyway, I liked the idea that they thought they were hunting the Jersey Devil and I'm always amused by the notion of clampers, so I'd say the good outweighs the bad for me in this one.

Edited August 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Goldmoon]

I came.  I watched.  I ...  zzzzzzz

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So...just watched it.  Thought it would have more Jersey Devil lore than it did based on the description.  But that's okay.  What really bugged me (and the reason I'm here) is this: now, I get that not everyone has the same background, etc, etc...but I also disliked Bambi from a young age for the same reason.  Why do shows have to paint real hunters in a bad light?  My father and uncles and brothers all hunted deer, rabbit, squirrel, duck growing up.  Nothing wrong with that.  I still know lots of men who do.  (and a few girls you would not expect!) And you know what?  The hunters I know - the REAL hunters - are law abiding citizens.  They don't hunt things out of season.  They don't shoot the wrong caliber bullets or randomly shoot other animals just because they can (and unlike in Bambi, they sure as HELL don't start forest fires.)  They don't litter and they are actually more eco-conscious than a lot of other people who don't hunt and are anti-gun.  

So while I appreciated Bobby's line that you don't shoot Bambi, it really ticked me off when he then said, you shoot Bambi's mother.  

Yes, for the uniformed, there is a doe season.  And it is strictly regulated.  Real Hunters just don't go around shooting female deer because they can.  

Really, Bobby.  I expected better of you.  

He should have said, you shoot Bambi's daddy.  In season.  I would have been okay with that.  

/rant off.  

[mertensia]

Really not getting that rant. During deer hunting season you have tags for bucks or does. Some people have tags for both. The Wisconsin DNR for several years has been pushing doe tags to help with overpopulation. So yes, those people are hunting Bambi's mother. Not Bambi.

And nowhere did anyone mention hunting out of season, so really REALLY not getting that part of the rant unless you are interpreting Bobby's words as hunting out of season. I don't- he's talking about doe tags.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

Really not getting that rant. During deer hunting season you have tags for bucks or does. Some people have tags for both. The Wisconsin DNR for several years has been pushing doe tags to help with overpopulation. So yes, those people are hunting Bambi's mother. Not Bambi.

And nowhere did anyone mention hunting out of season, so really REALLY not getting that part of the rant unless you are interpreting Bobby's words as hunting out of season. I don't- he's talking about doe tags.

You might know that.  And I might know that, but since he didn't mention deer season or doe tags (and it was not explained in the episode) - to the general uniformed, it came across to me as very anti-hunter.  Like Bambi, if you watch it, where hunters (who were really poachers, but the distinction was not made) are randomly shooting at anything that moves and then also start a forest fire.  Again, to me, it smacks of very anti-hunter propaganda.  

[mertensia]

They don't have time to discuss hunting season and doe tags. Just like there was no big discussion on which branch of Christianity was being shown in Faith. Or the history of the Untouchables in that one episode.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

He should have said, "You shoot Bambi's daddy.  In season."

Really, that's all it would have taken.  No big discussion needed.  Two extra words.  I think they had time for that.  Obviously, Your Mileage Varies.  

[catrox14]

Quote

BOBBY, DEAN and SAM are walking through the forest. BOBBY and DEAN are carrying packs and all three have rifles. BOBBY stops to look at a tuft of hair on a bush.

BOBBY:
Couple of bucks. Head-butting over turf probably. Pretty sure the other fella won.

SAM:
I guess I forgot. Before you were a hunter, you were actually a...hunter

BOBBY:
Yeah, well, we shot our dinner when I was a kid.

DEAN:
You used to take us hunting. Remember? Dad had a case, he'd just dump us on you. Shoot, you must have taught us most of the outdoor tracking we know.

BOBBY:

Yeah, what I could get to stick. I never could get you little grubs to pull a trigger on a single deer.

DEAN:
You’re talking about Bambi, man.

BOBBY:
You don't shoot Bambi, jackass. You shoot Bambi's mother.

 

 

I think that line has to be taken in context of the entire episode and within the context of that exchange itself

Bobby is the hero of this episode. That line was a Bambi joke but it was there as part of the retcon that Bobby was much more important to the boys than had ever been implied in the preceding 6 years of the show. It's intended as a bonding moment between Grumpy Old Foster Dad!Bobby and the boys before Bobby is shot in the head whilst being a hero.

I'm no John Winchester fan but I thought this was a shit episode for that reveal because it retcons John into not even being the one that taught the boys how to track anything but I guess made him seem more responsible by leaving the boys with Bobby. BUT that had the nasty side affect of reducing Dean's role as a parent to Sam.  Everything Dean did in the first two seasons was framed around an absentee father who was not there to raise the boys and that Dean DID in fact raise and protect Sam since he was 4 years old which is is why Dean sold his soul for Sam in the first place.

And it was all done to prop and lionize Bobby. I hate when writers do that. HATE IT. Hate it more than just about anything they can do. 

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I don't think that exchange is meant to be anti-hunter as much as the show was kinda making a joke of how Sam and Dean are supernatural hunters extraordinaire but are actually ignorant of hunting in the traditional sense.

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I don't think that exchange is meant to be anti-hunter as much as the show was kinda making a joke of how Sam and Dean are supernatural hunters extraordinaire but are actually ignorant of hunting in the traditional sense.

That too!

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

... I'm no John Winchester fan but I thought this was a shit episode for that reveal because it retcons John into not even being the one that taught the boys how to track anything but I guess made him seem more responsible by leaving the boys with Bobby. BUT that had the nasty side affect of reducing Dean's role as a parent to Sam.  Everything Dean did in the first two seasons was framed around an absentee father who was not there to raise the boys and that Dean DID in fact raise and protect Sam since he was 4 years old which is is why Dean sold his soul for Sam in the first place.

And it was all done to prop and lionize Bobby. I hate when writers do that. HATE IT. Hate it more than just about anything they can do. 

It doesn't change much for me, and there are a few specifics in the dialogue as to why it doesn't change much for me: the first being Sam's "I guess I forgot..."  implying that he was likely pretty young when some of the "dumping off" happened since he had forgotten that Bobby was also a hunter of animals, too. Also likely that it hadn't happened too often, or at least not often enough to make a huge impression. Second, Dean specifies "outdoor tracking" which for me is likely shorthand for "wilderness tracking." Which I can also see. From what I had seen in the past, John seemed to be a bit of a control freak and gave information mostly on a need to know basis. When he and Dean were hunting together, he probably imparted some tracking wisdom, but whether that would translate to "outdoor" hunting or if he'd even bother to explain the details of the tracking process to a young Dean, in my opinion, is up for debate. Taking those two things together into consideration, and also considering that tracking a deer at a young age would be much less dangerous than tracking a werewolf - and therefor much more suited to first lessons in tracking - Dean's statement here doesn't really bother me at all.

I also don't see this as reducing Dean's role in raising Sam in any significant way. There were three episodes with flashbacks to Sam and Dean's childhood in the first 3 years, and one of those was the brief view we got in the pilot episode. In the third of those episodes, it was established that young Sam spent at least some time with Bobby, because Bobby gave Sam the amulet, showing to me that Bobby knew the boys enough beyond just a casual relationship to be giving Sam a Christmas present to give to John. However, that same episode established that just because Sam had spent some time with Bobby, Dean was still the main caretaker with John being an absentee father since Dean was the one taking care of Sam during all of those flashbacks and John was nowhere to be seen - during the Christmas holiday season. How much more "absentee father" can a message get. And they certainly weren't spending that holiday at Bobby's either.

My guess is that Sam and Dean got "dumped off" at Bobby's sometimes if it was convenient - as in the hunt was out in Bobby's direction anyway - but otherwise Sam and Dean were left on their own. It wouldn't take a whole lot of visits to Bobby's for those visits to have an impression on a young Dean and make him feel close to Bobby, in my opinion. Dean remembers his mother despite being about 4 1/2 years old - and look how much of an impression the memories Dean did have of her made on him.

So in my opinion, none of the dialogue here takes away from the previous history, or even retcons it that much. It had already been established that despite them knowing Bobby, they still spent enough time on their own with Dean in the caretaker role, so for me nothing has changed, just as nothing changed really for me when we found out later that sometimes Sam took care of himself. (I was glad of that one actually, because it didn't seem to me to be in Sam's character that he would just sit back and expect Dean to take care of him all the time. He seemed more independent than that, or he never would've had the courage to leave on his own to go to college and to actually make it there, in my opinion. It made more sense to me that some independence and need to do things for himself had been established earlier on.)

[catrox14]

It's still a retcon because they are altering previous continuity to expand Bobby's role in the boys childhood.

It was said repeatedly by the boys and others that John taught Dean and Sam everything they knew which had to include research, firearm expertise and monster tracking. I find it inconceivable that was not intended to include tracking of outdoor creatures like the wendigo. Or that Bobby taught them this incredibly important skill that and John didn't. Sorry I just don't. I mean can't they give John that ONE thing?

Bobby was introduced as a hunter who was a family acquaintance/friend  who did not get along with John but helped him with research. They expanded it a bit when Bobby chewed out Dean for selling his soul but again that didn't imply that Bobby had a bigger role in their childhood but was fulfilling a "surrogate father" role  AFTER John died which I thought made perfect sense and didn't require any retcons to make it believable.

I started to side-eye the expansion of Bobby's involvement with the boys childhood in the Christmas episode with Uncle Bobby but that IMO was really just to set up the specialness of the amulet in s4 and s5. (I really hate that thing now. Sorry,but once you give someone a gift it is there's to do with what they want. If Dean threw it away that doesn't make Dean an asshole but I digress).  In s4 Dean says Bobby was the closest thing he had to a father, but again to me that was more about the loss of Dean's father and Bobby becoming a surrogate father NOW not that he had been before.

But I should take the rest of my thoughts to the bitterness thread

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's still a retcon because they are altering previous continuity to expand Bobby's role in the boys childhood.

It was said repeatedly by the boys and others that John taught Dean and Sam everything they knew which had to include research, firearm expertise and monster tracking. I find it inconceivable that was not intended to include tracking of outdoor creatures like the wendigo. Or that Bobby taught them this incredibly important skill that and John didn't. Sorry I just don't. I mean can't they give John that ONE thing?

I could be wrong, but I don't remember that being an exclusive thing myself. I remember just as many times when Dean mentioned things like "remember what Dad taught you / us," especially in reference to hunting. I just never saw that as being erased myself. I also thought that it was well established the bond between Dean and John and that Bobby was a surrogate after the fact. But that's just the way I interpreted it, so I can also see other interpretations.

Quote

I started to side-eye the expansion of Bobby's involvement with the boys childhood in the Christmas episode with Uncle Bobby but that IMO was really just to set up the specialness of the amulet in s4 and s5. (I really hate that thing now. Sorry,but once you give someone a gift it is there's to do with what they want. If Dean threw it away that doesn't make Dean an asshole but I digress). 

I don't think that Dean was wrong or even a jerk for throwing the amulet away. I thought he was harsh for throwing it away in front of Sam. As you say, it was his to do with what he wanted, and if he no longer felt it had meaning for him, fine, then chuck it. But throwing it away in front of Sam, the way he did - purposefully and with a pause so that Sam would see it - was not just tossing it. In my opinion, It was sending Sam a message and it was a harsh message. So we will have to agree to disagree on that part of that one, too.

[Hanahope]

I presumed the line about Bobby teaching the boys to (normal) hunt was the set up to make Bobby getting shot more meaningful.  I don't think it was really needed, we already like Bobby a lot (or most of us do at least).  

The boys really need to get new tools to fight the Leviathans.  They shouldn't have to bank on the industrial cleaning crew showing up all the time when they need to fight some.  and where were their machetes to take off their heads?  They seemed really unprepared once they knew they were dealing with Leviathans.

Interesting insight into the Leviathans' though.  They want to make their food fat and docile.  Ah, but just like the planet Miranda in Serenity, there's always a small percentage of people that end up going the exact opposite way and become Reavers.

I did think it interesting how quickly Sam and Bobby knew something was wrong with Dean, since in past episodes, it always seems to take one brother forever to realize the other is not acting right.

[Katy M]

18 hours ago, Hanahope said:

The boys really need to get new tools to fight the Leviathans.  They shouldn't have to bank on the industrial cleaning crew showing up all the time when they need to fight some.  and where were their machetes to take off their heads?  They seemed really unprepared once they knew they were dealing with Leviathans.

They didn't have time to be boy scouts when they were kids so "be prepared" really isn't in their vocabulary.  But, seriously, I think the probably had some cleaner and machetes in the van.  But, there were more there than they were planning on.  And, at that point, they were kind of in a hurry because Bobby was inside.  Since the heads attach back, I don't think they had time to really do a lot of decapitating, and their main goal was just to get Bobby out.

[bettername2come]

I love Bobby, but I would've preferred if they'd referred to Bobby teaching them real hunting as more of a "normal life" activity. Like dad took them on monster hunts and he took them on regular ones, but, hey, they learned valuable information both ways. They changed the plans throughout the show to make Bobby more and more important. Back in season one when they'd mention contacts of their dad's, they never mentioned Bobby. They mentioned staying with Pastor Jim, but that was it. And I read somewhere that they originally wanted Missouri Mosely back instead for "Devil's Trap," but couldn't get Loretta Devine, so they invented Bobby. Which I'm glad they did, because he's my favorite after Sam and Dean, but they've rewritten a lot of history since then. 

I hate this one. They give Bobby one on one conversations with the boys, which he rarely has when one of them's not dying or full-on crazy to up the ante on how much he means to them and then they shoot him in the head after it looks like he got away. It's emotionally manipulative and making me remember why I don't like this season. 

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

They changed the plans throughout the show to make Bobby more and more important. Back in season one when they'd mention contacts of their dad's, they never mentioned Bobby. They mentioned staying with Pastor Jim, but that was it. And I read somewhere that they originally wanted Missouri Mosely back instead for "Devil's Trap," but couldn't get Loretta Devine, so they invented Bobby. Which I'm glad they did, because he's my favorite after Sam and Dean, but they've rewritten a lot of history since then. 

I disagree that they rewrote anything. they didn't mention him when calling Dad's contacts, because John and Bobby had had a falling out. So, Bobby wouldn't have been any help in the "have you heard from dad?" mentions.  And, Dean, being loyal wouldn't contact Bobby for info until he got truly desperate.  And, they literally only mentioned staying with Pastor Jim once in the episode Something Wicked.  So, yes, they added him afterwards, but they did not change any history to do so.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

The Glamping couple at the beginning - geez, they had a tv set up too!  You know, they wouldn't have need the 'nature sounds' if they'd shut off their generator.  Just saying.  (Because I was camping - tent camping - last year at a campground that had a No Generators policy and the people next to us had one.  That's pretty much all I heard all night long.  Until they ran out of gas, I guess, and then it cut off.  Heh.)

Good to see Sam wearing gloves (I'm assuming high voltage) when attaching the jumper cables to the panel.  Nice touch of realism.  

Was that a real person Dean and Sam were carrying, cause seriously, it looked like Jared was carrying nothing more than a newspaper.  I don't think I appreciated the gross hilarity of the autopsy scene first time I watched this.  

Overall, I really like this episode (Bambi's mother line aside - still think that was wrong).  Some great secondary characters: Ranger Rick and Brandon the waiter.  Brandon was hilarious.  Big Bird, Ken Doll, and Creepy Uncle.  So accurate.  :)  Great stoned Dean.  The TDK slammer in the foil swan.  The first (I remember seeing) of The Rise of Dick.  Until the end, of course.  But then first time through, I figured Bobby would be okay.  And I was not very emotionally invested with Bobby back then either, so it didn't bother quite as much.  I like him much better in retrospect, and I think my affection for him has grown through subsequent years.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The Glamping couple at the beginning - geez, they had a tv set up too!  You know, they wouldn't have need the 'nature sounds' if they'd shut off their generator.  Just saying. 

But then they wouldn't have had the electricity to maintain everything else! I laughed so hard at all the glamping stuff. I'd run into people like this quite frequently when backpacking and I'd always wonder why they even bothered getting out in the woods. 

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think I appreciated the gross hilarity of the autopsy scene first time I watched this.  

God I miss Edlund and his whack-a-do!

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Overall, I really like this episode (Bambi's mother line aside - still think that was wrong).  Some great secondary characters: Ranger Rick and Brandon the waiter.  Brandon was hilarious.  Big Bird, Ken Doll, and Creepy Uncle.  So accurate.  :)  Great stoned Dean.  The TDK slammer in the foil swan.  The first (I remember seeing) of The Rise of Dick.  Until the end, of course.  But then first time through, I figured Bobby would be okay.  And I was not very emotionally invested with Bobby back then either, so it didn't bother quite as much.  I like him much better in retrospect, and I think my affection for him has grown through subsequent years.

Yeah, I figured Bobby would be just fine too on my first watched--rolled my eyes really hard at the bullet-holed trucker hat thinking they were overplaying the drama a bit too much.

Moving the rest of my response to All Episodes thread...

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I figured Bobby would be just fine too on my first watched--rolled my eyes really hard at the bullet-holed trucker hat thinking they were overplaying the drama a bit too much.

The first time I watched this, and Bobby had his one-on-one talk with SAm, I thought, that's nice.  Then when he had his one-on-one talk with Dean, I said "NO, they're killing Bobby."  I thought I was wrong as they ran out in into the night.  But, as soon as Bobby got shot, I knew he was a goner.  I kept a half bit of hope for him, because I love my Bobby, but this episode will forever be in my least favorites list because they killed my fave character.  Sob.

 

46 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd run into people like this quite frequently when backpacking and I'd always wonder why they even bothered getting out in the woods. 

I wonder the same thing about going out to eat if you can't unglue your eyes from your Smartphone for 5 seconds. Yes, I'm sorry I'm boring. But, maybe just 5 minutes of the meal?  Maybe?  I also wonder, to a lesser extent, about people who go to the beach and never go into the water.  Not even just their feet.  Or people who go on vaca and spend most of their time in the hotel.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd run into people like this quite frequently when backpacking and I'd always wonder why they even bothered getting out in the woods. 

As Sam said, they just don't know how to live! 

As I get older, I appreciate having a firm roof over my head more, so I'm actually thinking about buying a small trailer.  (One night in during a tornado watch in a tent and everything was soaked was enough for me.)  But the glamping set up was still a little much.  It was a nice tent though.  

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I also wonder, to a lesser extent, about people who go to the beach and never go into the water.  Not even just their feet.

Wait:

Spoiler

Didn't we pretty much see Sam and Dean do this in a later season at a lake?  They sure weren't dressed for getting in the water!  Lol.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wait:

And, I didn't understand that any better.    But they looked good *not* doing it.  LOL.  Especially Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I also wonder, to a lesser extent, about people who go to the beach and never go into the water.  Not even just their feet.  Or people who go on vaca and spend most of their time in the hotel.  

See, that I get. I mean, although, I totally would go "touch" the ocean myself, they went to the beach to enjoy the scenery and the nice weather, not to necessarily go in the ocean. They were still experiencing the beach even if they didn't experience the ocean. The glampers though, they turned on fake nature when they had real nature out their door. That I don't get. Why go to the all the trouble of packing all this stuff to the woods when you could've just turned it on in your house?

I totally agree about phones and dining though. You should be able to put down your electronic conversations in lieu of an actual conversation for a few minutes a day. 

Well, look at that, there are kids on my lawn right now, I think I need to go yell at them.... ;)

Edited September 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Iju]

i don't find it funny when people are on drugs or under the influence. it just makes me plain uncomfortable. only when there are certain contexts do i rarely let it slide.

that aside....these bloody levis. i forgot how much i loathed every inch of them. 

On 7/28/2017 at 10:41 PM, bettername2come said:

I love Bobby, but I would've preferred if they'd referred to Bobby teaching them real hunting as more of a "normal life" activity. Like dad took them on monster hunts and he took them on regular ones, but, hey, they learned valuable information both ways. They changed the plans throughout the show to make Bobby more and more important. 

why? wouldn't their father have taught them that?

[The Companion]

I enjoyed this one, though I couldn't help but get distracted by the logistics of bibbing. Well, until the end. Bobby is one of my favorite characters and I just don't mind the retcon. 

The turducken sandwich concept was hilarious to me. I loved hungry Dean who was not in the least discouraged by the disgusting autopsy. There was actually a lot of brilliant grossness. That sandwich alone.