The Books, The Movies, The Show: Compare And Contrast

[PeterPirate]

Responding in two parts.

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Gandalf meant 'after we are dead or gone far away'. Galadriel clearly feels a responsibility to middle earth and she is still there. She made a decision to stay. I don't see why that makes her evil.

Here is what Gil-Galad says about the return to Valinor:

And as a measure of our gratitude, these heroes shall be granted an honor unrivaled in all our lore.  They will be escorted to the Grey Havens and granted passage across the sea to dwell for all eternity in the Blessed Realm, the Far West.  The Undying Lands of Valinor.  

So, yeah, within the canon of this show, they are going to heaven, forever.  That's what Galadriel turned her back on.  Whether one wants to use the word "evil" to describe her choice is subjective.  I stand by my position that it is at least "not good".  

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

By evil, and palpable evil, I mean the kind of black miasma that rises from the Nazgul and makes wounds that don't heal. A literal blight on the landscape, a power that destroys without counting the cost. There is that in Tolkien and it can't be redeemed.

The show is strongly hinting that Galadriel is the cause of the blight.  Gil-Galad to Elrond the blight started just before she returned from her quest.  Galadriel herself told Halbrand she was sent away because the other Elves could not distinguish her from evil she was fighting. 

Of course, it is too soon to make a definitive call, but I would bet even money that Galadriel will turn out to be the cause of the blight and the rise of Sauron. 

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Of course, it is too soon to make a definitive call, but I would bet even money that Galadriel will turn out to be the cause of the blight and the rise of Sauron. 

No. Sauron is already active, stirring things up. Only Gil-galad is too blind to realise that. The shoe hasn't quite dropped for him, but eventually.

[Affogato]

20 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Responding in two parts.

Here is what Gil-Galad says about the return to Valinor:

And as a measure of our gratitude, these heroes shall be granted an honor unrivaled in all our lore.  They will be escorted to the Grey Havens and granted passage across the sea to dwell for all eternity in the Blessed Realm, the Far West.  The Undying Lands of Valinor.  

So, yeah, within the canon of this show, they are going to heaven, forever.  That's what Galadriel turned her back on.  Whether one wants to use the word "evil" to describe her choice is subjective.  I stand by my position that it is at least "not good".  

The show is strongly hinting that Galadriel is the cause of the blight.  Gil-Galad to Elrond the blight started just before she returned from her quest.  Galadriel herself told Halbrand she was sent away because the other Elves could not distinguish her from evil she was fighting. 

Of course, it is too soon to make a definitive call, but I would bet even money that Galadriel will turn out to be the cause of the blight and the rise of Sauron. 

You know, being evil for not wanting heaven? For having unfinished business?  Just no.
 

That will be an interesting story, if that is what happens. i mean that.

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, Anduin said:

No. Sauron is already active, stirring things up. Only Gil-galad is too blind to realise that. The shoe hasn't quite dropped for him, but eventually.

I've seen others make that statement.  Is there canon within the show to support it?  I must admit, I didn't pay too much attention to the first few episodes.  

[quarks]

4 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I've seen others make that statement.  Is there canon within the show to support it?  I must admit, I didn't pay too much attention to the first few episodes.  

I think quite a bit?

1. The evil sword predates not just Galadriel's return to Lindon, but her discovery of the Evil Thing Under the Snowy Mountain. 

2. That evil sword turns out to be part of a long term plan to blow up a mountain - very long term.

3. The tunnel digging part of the plan - and the subsequent poisoning of the cows - happened before Galadriel returned to Lindon, and kept happening after she left.

4. The tree blight started before Galadriel's return, and kept going after she left it.

It is possible that Adar started to enact the LET'S BLOW UP THIS MOUNTAIN EVERYONE DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE COWS plan once he realized that Galadriel had found the Evil Snowy Place, but the plan definitely predates that.

[PeterPirate]

19 minutes ago, quarks said:

I think quite a bit?

1. The evil sword predates not just Galadriel's return to Lindon, but her discovery of the Evil Thing Under the Snowy Mountain. 

2. That evil sword turns out to be part of a long term plan to blow up a mountain - very long term.

3. The tunnel digging part of the plan - and the subsequent poisoning of the cows - happened before Galadriel returned to Lindon, and kept happening after she left.

4. The tree blight started before Galadriel's return, and kept going after she left it.

It is possible that Adar started to enact the LET'S BLOW UP THIS MOUNTAIN EVERYONE DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE COWS plan once he realized that Galadriel had found the Evil Snowy Place, but the plan definitely predates that.

Sorry, but those points did not change my opinion.

1 and 2.  The plan to convert the Southlands into Mordor was created during the First Age, before Morgoth was defeated.  

3.  The tunnel plan was put into action by Adar, who could have learned of the plan during the First Age.  

4.  While Galadriel may not be the cause of the blight, there is no evidence that it is being caused by Sauron.  Corey Olsen has speculated that the blight is part of the natural waning of the Elves.  

As far as I know, the only evidence we have of Sauron being active during the Second Age is Adar's claim that he killed Sauron.  Even if that claim is true, Adar has not gone anywhere near Lindon, and would have encountered Sauron far away from Gil-Galad.  

Fwiw, I believe Adar's story.  Also that Halbrand is Sauron, since Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him.  But that only means Sauron has been working against Orcs, not Men or Elves.  

[quarks]

13 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

As far as I know, the only evidence we have of Sauron being active during the Second Age is Adar's claim that he killed Sauron.  Even if that claim is true, Adar has not gone anywhere near Lindon, and would have encountered Sauron far away from Gil-Galad.  

They found evidence of Sauron in the snowy glacier cave, complete with symbols that Sauron's followers in the Southlands identified with Sauron. Not one person there said, oooh, this is too old for the Second Age. 

13 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Fwiw, I believe Adar's story.  Also that Halbrand is Sauron, since Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him.  But that only means Sauron has been working against Orcs, not Men or Elves.  

That scene gave me the exact opposite impression.

We have several indications that Adar knew Sauron very well, for hundreds if not thousands of years, and was right there with Sauron at the beginning of the Second Age setting up this great Blow Up the Mountain plan and possibly even the Convince Elves to Dig Up All the Mithril and Wake Up the Balrog plan. And yet he doesn't recognize Halbrand. At all - not the face, not the voice, not the mannerisms.

And yet, yes, Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him. That could just be because he figured that Adar should be able to recognize the lost king of the Southlands (which I think overestimates Adar's interest in the lost king of Southlands), but I think it's more likely that Halbrand expected this because they had met before, in some confrontation that was deeply personal to Halbrand.

Halbrand has indicated more than once that he's done some pretty dark, evil stuff in his past. I think it's quite possible that either Adar murdered Halbrand's loved ones while Halbrand watched, or that Adar forced Halbrand to do some of those dark, evil deeds - and since Adar isn't particularly interested in random humans, Adar has forgotten all about this. Halbrand hasn't. 

[Affogato]

22 minutes ago, quarks said:

And yet, yes, Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him. That could just be because he figured that Adar should be able to recognize the lost king of the Southlands (which I think overestimates Adar's interest in the lost king of Southlands), but I think it's more likely that Halbrand expected this because they had met before, in some confrontation that was deeply personal to Halbrand.

Halbrand has indicated more than once that he's done some pretty dark, evil stuff in his past. I think it's quite possible that either Adar murdered Halbrand's loved ones while Halbrand watched, or that Adar forced Halbrand to do some of those dark, evil deeds - and since Adar isn't particularly interested in random humans, Adar has forgotten all about this. Halbrand hasn't. 

Yes, I don't think Adar has much interest in the lost king of the Southlands. I'm not sure I understand where he comes from or why people should be excited by him. I would be more excited by 'random guy with an army'. Is there a bunch of 'lost kind of the southands' legendry, action figures, mythos? But the incident with Adar may be when he disappeared.

I think it might be a good show story if Halbrand continues to grow closer to Galadriel and eventually takes a ring and becomes a Nazgul, thus giving Galadriel that awareness to refuse the one ring when it is offered to her.  She needs the relationship to humanize her as well, and I personally would prefer if she is saved by experience and sadly earned knowledge, rather than love.

[PeterPirate]

12 minutes ago, quarks said:

They found evidence of Sauron in the snowy glacier cave, complete with symbols that Sauron's followers in the Southlands identified with Sauron. Not one person there said, oooh, this is too old for the Second Age. 

Throndir said the mark was "centuries old".  He didn't say how many centuries.  I think it likely that northern fortress was constructed in the First Age, just like the map kept in the Hall of Lore.  The tower at Ostirith, after all, could not have been constructed in the Second Age. 

It is possible the fortress is where Sauron conducted experiments on the Orcs, and even where Adar killed him, during the Second Age.  It was still centuries in the past, and a long way from the trees in Lindon.    

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

nd yet, yes, Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him. That could just be because he figured that Adar should be able to recognize the lost king of the Southlands (which I think overestimates Adar's interest in the lost king of Southlands), but I think it's more likely that Halbrand expected this because they had met before, in some confrontation that was deeply personal to Halbrand.

My guess is Adar killed a previous bodily incarnation of Sauron's spirit.  Halbrand is the latest incarnation.  

[quarks]

16 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

My guess is Adar killed a previous bodily incarnation of Sauron's spirit.  Halbrand is the latest incarnation.  

But then why would Adar be expected to recognize him?

Sure, everyone recognized Gandalf after he "died" in Moria and returned - but that's because Gandalf returned wearing the same face that he had when he "died." 

Otherwise, the books are pretty clear on this: with two exceptions, if the Maiar show up in new bodies or wearing new faces, people have no idea who they are until and unless they say, hi, it's me! The two exceptions are Gandalf, who does recognize Sauron during the spy mission to Dol Guldur - at a point when Sauron no longer has the power to disguise himself and is stuck in the Second Age body, and Cirdan the Shipwright, who recognizes Gandalf. Gandalf, of course, is a Maiar himself, which gives him a bit of an edge, and we're specifically told that Cirdan has special gifts:

"For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself.' "

Note that even with the special gift of unusual foresight, Cirdan doesn't go, "Hi, Olorin!" He just sticks with the generic "Master." Though to be fair they may not have met before this - Cirdan never went to Valinor before the Fourth Age. But no one else, including Galadriel and Glorfindel, use that name either. It's not clear if they even realize this is the same guy who lived in Lorien and spent significant time with Nienna back in the day.

Add in that at this point in time Sauron is supposedly a master in disguise, and I see no reason why if he's disguised as Halbrand, he'd expect Adar - or anyone - to recognize him.

[Camera One]

I guess the judgement will come when all the secrets are revealed, and we see whether the outcome is consistent with Halbrand's actions and words thus far.

I guess the writers could also diverge from lore and claim that when Sauron takes on a human body, he is affected by human feels and sometimes forgets who he truly is (thus thinking Adar would recognize him).  As Halbrand, Sauron will almost redeem himself, until he is rejected by Galadriel, causing him to embrace evil once more. (Jokes)

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

But then why would Adar be expected to recognize him?

Sure, everyone recognized Gandalf after he "died" in Moria and returned - but that's because Gandalf returned wearing the same face that he had when he "died." 

Otherwise, the books are pretty clear on this: with two exceptions, if the Maiar show up in new bodies or wearing new faces, people have no idea who they are until and unless they say, hi, it's me! The two exceptions are Gandalf, who does recognize Sauron during the spy mission to Dol Guldur - at a point when Sauron no longer has the power to disguise himself and is stuck in the Second Age body, and Cirdan the Shipwright, who recognizes Gandalf. Gandalf, of course, is a Maiar himself, which gives him a bit of an edge, and we're specifically told that Cirdan has special gifts:

"For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself.' "

Note that even with the special gift of unusual foresight, Cirdan doesn't go, "Hi, Olorin!" He just sticks with the generic "Master." Though to be fair they may not have met before this - Cirdan never went to Valinor before the Fourth Age. But no one else, including Galadriel and Glorfindel, use that name either. It's not clear if they even realize this is the same guy who lived in Lorien and spent significant time with Nienna back in the day.

Add in that at this point in time Sauron is supposedly a master in disguise, and I see no reason why if he's disguised as Halbrand, he'd expect Adar - or anyone - to recognize him.

Right, but the books are merely suggestive of what we might see on the screen.  

Halbrand's question to Adar was "You remember me?"  That doesn't necessarily mean Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him.  Perhaps he was wondering if Adar, who was an Elf, had the ability to see Sauron through the Halbrand costume.  

[Anduin]

My take on the Adar/Halbrand scene was an example of "But for Me, It Was Tuesday". However, I'm prepared to be wrong. We'll find out eventually. Speculation is fun.

[quarks]

9 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Right, but the books are merely suggestive of what we might see on the screen.  

Halbrand's question to Adar was "You remember me?"  That doesn't necessarily mean Halbrand expected Adar to recognize him.  Perhaps he was wondering if Adar, who was an Elf, had the ability to see Sauron through the Halbrand costume.  

In that case, why not wonder why Galadriel, who is also an Elf, and Arondir, again, also an Elf, have the ability to see Sauron through the Halbrand costume? 

[QuantumMechanic]

(deleted because Anduin already said it)

Edited October 6, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[PeterPirate]

19 minutes ago, quarks said:

In that case, why not wonder why Galadriel, who is also an Elf, and Arondir, again, also an Elf, have the ability to see Sauron through the Halbrand costume? 

Indeed I have wondered that.  Galadriel may have magic powers in the books, but that matters not whit in this show.  And so far in this show, Galadriel has not yet exhibited any magical power. 

For all we know, those powers may become manifest in the face of a pyroclastic flow.  Or maybe it will turn out to a light, fluffy, survivable pyroclastic flow.  Who knows.  

Just to emphasize my point, here is a snippet from the book Fellowship Of The Ring: 

There he (Beren) beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tinúviel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel.  

That's not from The Silmarillion or the other posthumously published works.  It's not even from the Appendices.  It's from THE BOOK.  And yet they casually and cavalierly invented a fourth Silmaril so they could tell the story they wanted to tell about magically healing mithril. 

Whatever is going to happen in this show is what is going to happen in this show.  Buckle up and enjoy the ride.   

[quarks]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Indeed I have wondered that.  Galadriel may have magic powers in the books, but that matters not whit in this show.  And so far in this show, Galadriel has not yet exhibited any magical power. 

For all we know, those powers may become manifest in the face of a pyroclastic flow.  Or maybe it will turn out to a light, fluffy, survivable pyroclastic flow.  Who knows.  

Just to emphasize my point, here is a snippet from the book Fellowship Of The Ring: 

There he (Beren) beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tinúviel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel.  

That's not from The Silmarillion or the other posthumously published works.  It's not even from the Appendices.  It's from THE BOOK.  And yet they casually and cavalierly invented a fourth Silmaril so they could tell the story they wanted to tell about magically healing mithril. 

Whatever is going to happen in this show is what is going to happen in this show.  Buckle up and enjoy the ride.   

Except they haven't invented a fourth Silmaril. They may - may - have changed the backstory for one of the Silmarils - the one that in The Silmarillion and The Histories of Middle-Earth (that is, the the books they don't have the rights to.)

Specifically, the Silmaril that burned the hand of Maedhros so badly that he cast it into the depths of the earth. The show still has a Silmaril ending up in the depths of the earth - but Maedhros isn't involved.

Here's the actual dialogue:

Gil-galad: Are you familiar with The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir? Recount it for me, please.

Elrond: An obscure legend regarded by most to be apocryphal.

Gil-galad: Recount it, Elrond Peredhil.

Elrond: It speaks of a battle, high among the peaks of the Misty Mountains. Not over honor or duty, but over a tree. Within which some claim was hidden the last of the lost Silmarils. On one side fought an Elven warrior, with a heart as pure as Manwe, who poured all his light into the tree to protect it. On the other, a Balrog of Morgoth, who channeled all his hatred into the tree to destroy it. Amidst their duel unending, lightning ensnared the tree, forging of their conflict, a power -

Gil-galad: A power as pure, as light, as good. As strong and unyielding as evil. They say it seeped down the roots into the mountain depths, where for centuries now, it has waited.

##

No mention of a specific number of Silmarils - just that this one fell into the earth. Elrond also doesn't give a specific number of Silmarils when he discusses Feanor's hammer with Celebrimbor. But the show does give a specific number of Silmarils elsewhere - on Finrod's dagger, which shows two trees and three jewels, not four. 

So that hasn't changed. What has changed is this whole "mithril comes from a Silmaril," which I wasn't fond of (not least because it seems to forget that Earendil's ship was made of mithril before any of the Silmarils were lost), but to be completely fair, we don't know - yet - if this is actually a change to the canon, or just a story either Sauron or Gil-galad made up. 

[Anduin]

42 minutes ago, quarks said:

Except they haven't invented a fourth Silmaril. They may - may - have changed the backstory for one of the Silmarils - the one that in The Silmarillion and The Histories of Middle-Earth (that is, the the books they don't have the rights to.)

Specifically, the Silmaril that burned the hand of Maedhros so badly that he cast it into the depths of the earth. The show still has a Silmaril ending up in the depths of the earth - but Maedhros isn't involved.

Furthermore, do the elves on the whole know what happened to Maedros and Maglor's silmarils? I know Maglor survived to wander the coast, but did he pass on the news?

I like Corey Olsen's theory. This story was made up by Sauron to cause trouble. He's behind the scenes right now, stirring the pot, poisoning the tree...

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Except they haven't invented a fourth Silmaril. They may - may - have changed the backstory for one of the Silmarils

From Quenta Silmarillion:  

But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth.

Now, I realize this passage cannot be considered purely canonical.  I think anything from The Silmarillion is quasi-canonical, in that it may be contradicted by other Tolkien writings.  To my knowledge there was never been any ambiguity about the fates of the Sons of Feanor.  So I take this snippet as canonical.  And casting something into a fiery chasm is not the same thing as placing it in a tree.  

1 hour ago, quarks said:

But the show does give a specific number of Silmarils elsewhere - on Finrod's dagger, which shows two trees and three jewels, not four.  So that hasn't changed.

The dagger may not be a reliable indicator.  There may have been a lack of communication between the writers and the art department.  The map of Middle Earth that Miriel read during the sea voyage showed Numenorean settlements already established there. 

In the end it doesn't matter to me whether they changed the number of Silmarils or they changed the fate of one of them.  It's a change to the lore, and a fundamental part of the lore at that.  The stuff about the mithril is just more of the same, although not as central to the lengendarium. 

50 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Furthermore, do the elves on the whole know what happened to Maedros and Maglor's silmarils? I know Maglor survived to wander the coast, but did he pass on the news?  

Quenta Silmarrilion begins with this:

It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand.

Supposedly, what we are reading is Elvish lore that was passed down through the eons and somehow landed in front of JRR Tolkien to translate into English.  I think it strains credulity for Gil-Galad and Elrond to not know of the lore of the fate of the three Silmarils (or any other part of the lore of the First Age), but then know this story about the "last" Silmaril.  

Mileage varies, of course, but I still think the best way to live with the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is to accept that this show is a "modern re-imagining" created by people with a casual and cavalier sense of fidelity to the source material.  

Which, as I've said before, is fine.  The Second Age sucked.  Not even Peter Jackson could faithfully adapt the source material and give it the warmth and comradery of Lord Of The Rings.  What we're watching is pretty entertaining, and may turn out to be Tolkien-esque.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:43 PM, PeterPirate said:

From Quenta Silmarillion:  

But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth.

Now, I realize this passage cannot be considered purely canonical.  I think anything from The Silmarillion is quasi-canonical, in that it may be contradicted by other Tolkien writings.  To my knowledge there was never been any ambiguity about the fates of the Sons of Feanor.  So I take this snippet as canonical.  And casting something into a fiery chasm is not the same thing as placing it in a tree.  

(nods) I know the passage - I even referred to it in the post you're responding to. It's a passage that the show doesn't have rights to, which is important. They can't mention Maedhros.

Which puts them in a bit of a bind, since - for whatever reason - it seems they have decided to go with this whole "mithril can cure Elves, or, well, at least trees" thing. (I'm just going to go ahead and assume that something in the next four seasons will drain mithril of its power to cure anything, including trees, allowing it to be the non-magical shiny silver metal we see later). And for some reason they've also decided that the best way to explain this is to have mithril hold the power of a Silmaril and a Balrog, before running into the major problem that they can't explain how that Silmaril got into the earth since they don't have rights to that story. Thus, this story, made up for the show, but also very carefully couched as an "obscure legend," not necessarily the truth.

In any case, it's not a fourth Silmaril. It's the third.

On 10/6/2022 at 9:43 PM, PeterPirate said:

The dagger may not be a reliable indicator.  There may have been a lack of communication between the writers and the art department.  The map of Middle Earth that Miriel read during the sea voyage showed Numenorean settlements already established there. 

The last episode confirmed that the Numenoreans had built settlements on Middle-earth, so the art department was accurate on that one.

And given the fairly high chances that Amazon plans to sell replica daggers, I suspect the design for that dagger had to go through multiple levels of approval before the prop was made. Making the three jewels on that dagger a fairly reliable indicator of what the show is doing. Giving another explanation for how the Silmaril fell into the earth, sure. Changing the number of Silmarils, no.

Anyway, since this particular conversation arose out of a question of whether or not Halbrand = Sauron, well, I still think the Halbrand/Adar confrontation doesn't mean that Halbrand is Sauron. But the whole "this wound needs Elvish medicine," and "can he ride?" bit in this last episode was, how to put this, suspiciously similar to the exact dialogue said in the Fellowship of the Ring film after the Witch-king of Angmar wounded Frodo at Weathertop - with of course the kinda major difference that Frodo really couldn't ride. 

Given all the other visual and verbal callbacks to the Jackson films in this episode, this had to have been deliberate, raising the chances that Halbrand will turn out to be either a Nazgul or Sauron. I'm still inclined to think Nazgul - not just because the callback here was to Frodo's confrontation with a Nazgul, not Sauron, or because the other visual comparisons have been between Halbrand and Aragorn, not Sauron, but because the story we've seen with Halbrand so far is of a mortal man easily tempted to anger and to evil, not precisely the character of Sauron from the books or the films. So even if Halbrand offers to help out with forging the rings in the next episode, I'm still going to remain skeptical - unless, of course, he suddenly turns into a very big eye.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

(nods) I know the passage - I even referred to it in the post you're responding to. It's a passage that the show doesn't have rights to, which is important. They can't mention Maedhros.

Which puts them in a bit of a bind, since - for whatever reason - it seems they have decided to go with this whole "mithril can cure Elves, or, well, at least trees" thing. (I'm just going to go ahead and assume that something in the next four seasons will drain mithril of its power to cure anything, including trees, allowing it to be the non-magical shiny silver metal we see later). And for some reason they've also decided that the best way to explain this is to have mithril hold the power of a Silmaril and a Balrog, before running into the major problem that they can't explain how that Silmaril got into the earth since they don't have rights to that story. Thus, this story, made up for the show, but also very carefully couched as an "obscure legend," not necessarily the truth.

In any case, it's not a fourth Silmaril. It's the third.

The last episode confirmed that the Numenoreans had built settlements on Middle-earth, so the art department was accurate on that one.

And given the fairly high chances that Amazon plans to sell replica daggers, I suspect the design for that dagger had to go through multiple levels of approval before the prop was made. Making the three jewels on that dagger a fairly reliable indicator of what the show is doing. Giving another explanation for how the Silmaril fell into the earth, sure. Changing the number of Silmarils, no.

Anyway, since this particular conversation arose out of a question of whether or not Halbrand = Sauron, well, I still think the Halbrand/Adar confrontation doesn't mean that Halbrand is Sauron. But the whole "this wound needs Elvish medicine," and "can he ride?" bit in this last episode was, how to put this, suspiciously similar to the exact dialogue said in the Fellowship of the Ring film after the Witch-king of Angmar wounded Frodo at Weathertop - with of course the kinda major difference that Frodo really couldn't ride. 

Given all the other visual and verbal callbacks to the Jackson films in this episode, this had to have been deliberate, raising the chances that Halbrand will turn out to be either a Nazgul or Sauron. I'm still inclined to think Nazgul - not just because the callback here was to Frodo's confrontation with a Nazgul, not Sauron, or because the other visual comparisons have been between Halbrand and Aragorn, not Sauron, but because the story we've seen with Halbrand so far is of a mortal man easily tempted to anger and to evil, not precisely the character of Sauron from the books or the films. So even if Halbrand offers to help out with forging the rings in the next episode, I'm still going to remain skeptical - unless, of course, he suddenly turns into a very big eye.

I'm still not 100% convinced the writers are wedded to the notion that there are three Silmarils.  They wrote that the "last" Silmaril was placed into the tree.  

But, conceding that point that there are only three Silmarils, that still leaves the problem of what happened to them.  Per canon, there's one in the sky, one in the sea, and one in a fiery chasm.  No mention of a tree. 

And that leads to the question of what happened to Maedhros and/or Maglor.  If one of the Silmarils was placed in a tree, that means that either their story has to be changed, or they must be erased from the lore altogether.  Legally, the showrunners may have had the rights to do that.  And using an "obscure legend" may be an artful way to get around the canon.  But there is still no way for Gil-Galad and Elrond to know the existing lore of the three Silmarils--and those who last possessed them--and also take seriously the notion that one of them ended up in a tree.  Something has to get thrown out.  That's the difference between the Silmaril In The Tree and the Magical Mithril.  The latter may be an addition to the canon, but it doesn't mean that anything from before has to be erased.  

I'm quite certain that if Payne and McKay were asked which of the three Silmarils ended up in a tree--Earendil's, Maedhros', or Maglor's, they would not be able to provide an answer.  Because the follow-up question would be "What happened to him?"--which they could not answer without changing the canon.  

As to whether Halbrand is Sauron, presumably Sauron has to meet Celebrimbor to learn how to make magic rings.  Right now Halbrand is the best candidate.  

Edited October 8, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm still not 100% convinced the writers are wedded to the notion that there are three Silmarils.  They wrote that the "last" Silmaril was placed into the tree.  

But, conceding that point that there are only three Silmarils, that still leaves the problem of what happened to them.  Per canon, there's one in the sky, one in the sea, and one in a fiery chasm.  No mention of a tree. 

And that leads to the question of what happened to Maedhros and/or Maglor.  If one of the Silmarils was placed in a tree, that means that either their story has to be changed, or they must be erased from the lore altogether.  Legally, the showrunners may have had the rights to do that.  And using an "obscure legend" may be an artful way to get around the canon.  But there is still no way for Gil-Galad and Elrond to know the existing lore of the three Silmarils--and those who last possessed them--and also take seriously the notion that one of them ended up in a tree.  Something has to get thrown out.  That's the difference between the Silmaril In The Tree and the Magical Mithril.  The latter may be an addition to the canon, but it doesn't mean that anything from before has to be erased.  

I'm quite certain that if Payne and McKay were asked which of the three Silmarils ended up in a tree--Earendil's, Maedhros', or Maglor's, they would not be able to provide an answer.  Because the follow-up question would be "What happened to him?"--which they could not answer without changing the canon.  

It's entirely possible that Maedhros placed the Silmaril in a tree, and then fought with the Balrog, before falling into the cracks of the earth opened up by that battle. It's also possible that at this point in the canon, Gil-galad and Elrond do not know what happened to the other two Silmarils. After all, no one was around when Maedhros and Maglor stole the Silmarils, or when Maedhros fell into the earth. And Gil-galad was apparently not on great terms with either of them, and Elrond was not on great terms with Maedhros. Elrond does not seem to know that much about his father, or that Celebrimbor knew him. 

And Tolkien's writings contain quite a bit of "After the Third Age passed, people perceived that...." where that turns out to be the locations of the palantirs or the rings. It's possible that the Silmarils are in a similar category - with the locations of the last two Silmarils unknown until the Fourth Age, when - Tolkien claimed -  various scholars began putting things together - Bilbo's translations, the various writings gathered by Elfwine and so on. Some of that information came from Tol Eressea, through Numenor. And in some cases, Gandalf, explaining things to the hobbits (and Gimli) in Gondor. And in some cases, Tolkien specified - especially as he found himself more and more convinced that the Elves did know basic astronomy and would know that the story of the Sun and Moon could not possibly be true. His explanation: the myths were about Elves, sure, but as filtered through humans - which could be wrong.

So it's not out of the question, or against the canon, that at this specific time in Middle-earth, Gil-galad and Elrond don't know the details - or that the story of Maedhros, as retold by humans a couple of ages later, left out the whole tree part.  

Regarding the showrunners, I get the distinct opposite impression once again. I think they do know the trivia about which Silmaril ended up where. What I think they are perhaps less solid on is some of the various philosophies of Tolkien - or maybe they just don't think that stuff makes for good TV.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

It's entirely possible that Maedhros placed the Silmaril in a tree, and then fought with the Balrog, before falling into the cracks of the earth opened up by that battle. It's also possible that at this point in the canon, Gil-galad and Elrond do not know what happened to the other two Silmarils. After all, no one was around when Maedhros and Maglor stole the Silmarils, or when Maedhros fell into the earth. And Gil-galad was apparently not on great terms with either of them, and Elrond was not on great terms with Maedhros. Elrond does not seem to know that much about his father, or that Celebrimbor knew him. 

And Tolkien's writings contain quite a bit of "After the Third Age passed, people perceived that...." where that turns out to be the locations of the palantirs or the rings. It's possible that the Silmarils are in a similar category - with the locations of the last two Silmarils unknown until the Fourth Age, when - Tolkien claimed -  various scholars began putting things together - Bilbo's translations, the various writings gathered by Elfwine and so on. Some of that information came from Tol Eressea, through Numenor. And in some cases, Gandalf, explaining things to the hobbits (and Gimli) in Gondor. And in some cases, Tolkien specified - especially as he found himself more and more convinced that the Elves did know basic astronomy and would know that the story of the Sun and Moon could not possibly be true. His explanation: the myths were about Elves, sure, but as filtered through humans - which could be wrong.

So it's not out of the question, or against the canon, that at this specific time in Middle-earth, Gil-galad and Elrond don't know the details - or that the story of Maedhros, as retold by humans a couple of ages later, left out the whole tree part.  

Regarding the showrunners, I get the distinct opposite impression once again. I think they do know the trivia about which Silmaril ended up where. What I think they are perhaps less solid on is some of the various philosophies of Tolkien - or maybe they just don't think that stuff makes for good TV.

Sure, it is possible to take the existing canon and spin things around to make up a new story.  Or to say the High King of the Noldor did not know the lore of his people.  But I am saying that it is wrong to do that at all.  

As you know, Maedhros murdered other Elves to get the Silmaril, and as a punishment it burned his hand so badly that he threw himself with the Silmaril into a fiery chasm.  To turn things around and make it sound like he battled a Balrog to protect a tree is, well, highly difficult to accept.  

Also, the notion that Gil-Galad and Elrond did not know what happened to the Silmarils leads to similar logic problems.  The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is the story of what happened to the "last' Silmaril, and is therefore lore from the First Age.  How could Gil-Galad and Elrond know this First Age lore, but not the lore of the other Silmarils?  When and how did they learn what happened to the other Silmarils?  When and how did they learn the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir?    

And then there is Bilbo's Song of Earendil, which states that Earendil's sky-ship was made from mithril and glass.  That is more First Age lore, and it is from the book.  How much of Tolkien's works have to be thrown out in order to reconcile this show to what remains?  

I have no doubt Payne and McKay knew what happened to the Silmarils.  What I am saying is they revealed they have a casual and cavalier sense of fidelity to the source material.  To them the source material is to be picked apart and then discarded whenever it gets in the way.  Not even Corey Olsen tried to defend the Song of Roots of Hithaeglir. 

Which, again, is fine.  This is a TV show that is "based on the works of JRR Tolkien".  It is a modern re-imagining, and the more imagination they use, the better.  Imho it is better for the intellect, the psyche, and the soul to accept that it is non-canonical.  

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

it is better for the intellect, the psyche, and the soul to accept that it is non-canonical.  

That is the question.  I personally did not know much about the lore of mithril until I read up on it and listened to videos by Tolkien devotees.

So essentially, if there was no source material to adhere to (and putting aside the "Is it Tolkienian" question), is the mithril story a good one?  It was pretty much told over 4 episodes.

A group (elves) is slowly fading away but only the king and a select few know that a magical mythical metal can restore them back to health.  A king sends his unwitting diplomat to a builder who needs more workers, and the diplomat suggests getting a workforce from another group, to which his best friend belongs, but he hasn't checked in with his friend for 20 years.  The friend is initially angry, but an apology and intervention from his friend's vivacious wife leads to a quick reconciliation.  Soon after, the builder suggests the friend is hiding something, so the diplomat snoops and eavesdrops until he finds out about a magic metal being mined.  The diplomat swears a solemn oath to his friend that he will keep this secret and if he does not, his descendants will suffer.  The diplomat's king asks him about the magic metal but he refuses to tell, but the King reveals he actually intentionally sent the diplomat to discover the metal, which is needed to prevent their whole group from dying.  The king pressures the diplomat to tell if his friend's group has the magic metal but the diplomat tells the king he swore an oath not to tell if his friend has the magic metal, which sorts of suggests that his friend does have it.  The diplomat also gives the sample of the magic metal to the builder for testing.  Then, the diplomat goes back and tells his friend about the dire situation and the friend wants to help because he can't imagine life without his bestest of friends.  The diplomat tries to negotiate with the friend's father, who is the king of his people, but that king refuses citing safety concerns, and the diplomat is kicked out and the diplomat's friend disowned.  This occurs just after a large vein of the metal is found, and the metal is confirmed to have magical healing powers. 

So now what?  How is the diplomat and his people going to get the magic metal?  Is his friend going to revolt against his father?  And now the diplomat's people will need this magic to give them the strength to fight against a great evil coming out from the southeast. 

Is this story good on paper?  Was it well told over the course of Season 1?  Do viewers care about what will happen next?  

Edited October 9, 2022 by Camera One

[Grimnar]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That is the question.  I personally did not know much about the lore of mithril until I read up on it and listened to videos by Tolkien devotees.

So essentially, if there was no source material to adhere to (and putting aside the "Is it Tolkienian" question), is the mithril story a good one?  It was pretty much told over 4 episodes.

A group (elves) is slowly fading away but only the king and a select few know that a magical mythical metal can restore them back to health.  A king sends his unwitting diplomat to a builder who needs more workers, and the diplomat suggests getting a workforce from another group, to which his best friend belongs, but he hasn't checked in with his friend for 20 years.  The friend is initially angry, but an apology and intervention from his friend's vivacious wife leads to a quick reconciliation.  Soon after, the builder suggests the friend is hiding something, so the diplomat snoops and eavesdrops until he finds out about a magic metal being mined.  The diplomat swears a solemn oath to his friend that he will keep this secret and if he does not, his descendants will suffer.  The diplomat's king asks him about the magic metal but he refuses to tell, but the King reveals he actually intentionally sent the diplomat to discover the metal, which is needed to prevent their whole group from dying.  The king pressures the diplomat to tell if his friend's group has the magic metal but the diplomat tells the king he swore an oath not to tell if his friend has the magic metal, which sorts of suggests that his friend does have it.  The diplomat also gives the sample of the magic metal to the builder for testing.  Then, the diplomat goes back and tells his friend about the dire situation and the friend wants to help because he can't imagine life without his bestest of friends.  The diplomat tries to negotiate with the friend's father, who is the king of his people, but that king refuses citing safety concerns, and the diplomat is kicked out and the diplomat's friend disowned.  This occurs just after a large vein of the metal is found, and the metal is confirmed to have magical healing powers. 

So now what?  How is the diplomat and his people going to get the magic metal?  Is his friend going to revolt against his father?  And now the diplomat's people will need this magic to give them the strength to fight against a great evil coming out from the southeast. 

Is this story good on paper?  Was it well told over the course of Season 1?  Do viewers care about what will happen next?  

For me so far it isn't good story, at least how it was executed, on paper it could look good.

Reasons for me, why it is not working, are that there are too many questions for which we will not get probably answers. Like how they know that elves will fade away in year? If they would drop some hints that elves are getting weaker, etc but so far it is only manifested in infected tree.
Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are expecting that mithril will work based on story which even Elrond doesn't belive? Also how story about battle on top of Misty Mountains spread? We can't ignore that Galadriel, Gil-galad, elves in general would be witnesses to many events and some other elves had to be present during battle so they can tell this story(and how would they know that it created new metal as result of elf and balrog battle).
Also that Elrond is spying on his friend because dwarves have secret(so what, elves have secrets) and then broke his oath to Durin in next episode and it is treated as no big deal.

So far it is not executed well and they have just one episode to make it better.

[JustHereForFood]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Is this story good on paper?  Was it well told over the course of Season 1?  Do viewers care about what will happen next?  

Personally, it's one of my more favorite storylines so far and I want to know how it goes next.

[quarks]

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Sure, it is possible to take the existing canon and spin things around to make up a new story.  Or to say the High King of the Noldor did not know the lore of his people.  But I am saying that it is wrong to do that at all.  

As you know, Maedhros murdered other Elves to get the Silmaril, and as a punishment it burned his hand so badly that he threw himself with the Silmaril into a fiery chasm.  To turn things around and make it sound like he battled a Balrog to protect a tree is, well, highly difficult to accept.  

Also, the notion that Gil-Galad and Elrond did not know what happened to the Silmarils leads to similar logic problems.  The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is the story of what happened to the "last' Silmaril, and is therefore lore from the First Age.  How could Gil-Galad and Elrond know this First Age lore, but not the lore of the other Silmarils?  When and how did they learn what happened to the other Silmarils?  When and how did they learn the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir?    

And then there is Bilbo's Song of Earendil, which states that Earendil's sky-ship was made from mithril and glass.  That is more First Age lore, and it is from the book.  How much of Tolkien's works have to be thrown out in order to reconcile this show to what remains?  

I have no doubt Payne and McKay knew what happened to the Silmarils.  What I am saying is they revealed they have a casual and cavalier sense of fidelity to the source material.  To them the source material is to be picked apart and then discarded whenever it gets in the way.  Not even Corey Olsen tried to defend the Song of Roots of Hithaeglir. 

Which, again, is fine.  This is a TV show that is "based on the works of JRR Tolkien".  It is a modern re-imagining, and the more imagination they use, the better.  Imho it is better for the intellect, the psyche, and the soul to accept that it is non-canonical.  

Well, fortunately enough, my intellect, psyche and soul aren't dependent upon this show.  Nor am I expecting everything to line up with the books - because again, they don't have the rights to all the books.

(I've also pointed out the Earendil/mithril bit before.)

But it is fairly easy for me to explain how Gil-galad and Elrond knew some but not all of the First Age lore. They would know some just by virtue of actually witnessing it - Gil-galad was born in Valinor and was part of the whole Exile of the Noldor. Elrond was kidnapped by Maedhros and Maglor. So, yeah, these are people they personally knew. But that does not mean that they necessarily knew all of the lore of the First Age, including what happened to all three Silmarils other than, whoops, lost. With Maedhros in particular, since no one was there when he fell into the earth, no one would have known the specifics until Maedhros came out of the House of Mandos to tell them, or they received word from a Valar. And just when did one of the messengers start explaining interesting little details like this? Only after the One Ring was destroyed.  It's quite possible that the one message that they got from the Valar was just, yeah, they're gone. Or they heard something from Maglor (who is still alive), and pieced together other details. 

Tolkien is even pretty explicit here: the Wise do not know everything, and are often wrong. So although this mithril story doesn't appear in Tolkien's works, the idea of Gil-galad and Elrond not knowing the details of what happened to the Silmarils, or precisely where they are, does.

But I think a more important note here is your statement here:

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I have no doubt Payne and McKay knew what happened to the Silmarils.  What I am saying is they revealed they have a casual and cavalier sense of fidelity to the source material.  To them the source material is to be picked apart and then discarded whenever it gets in the way.  Not even Corey Olsen tried to defend the Song of Roots of Hithaeglir. 

This was a $1 billion show even before Covid raised production costs. All indications are that multiple Amazon executives, right up to Jeff Bezos, are taking a major interest in this show.

So I doubt anything on this show is done casually or cavalierly - including the fidelity to the source material. And not just because of hopes that fans of the Tolkien books will tune into the show (though probably that too.)  The threat of having to shut down a production at the cost of several thousand per day because of a rights issue is a very, very real one - along with the threat of having to remove material after filming. And in terms of picking apart the source material - Amazon spent millions for these rights, and I strongly suspect that they've told the showrunners to use things from the books - and someone seems to have encouraged the directors to use shots from the films.

And that, I think, might be part of the issue here? Because instead of creating some sort of original magic item that could cure the Elves, they had to work with something from Tolkien - while at the same time not using anything from Tolkien that they didn't have the rights to, and not irritating New Line by using something from the films that they also don't have the rights to (like, say, athelas, which was in the films, so they probably have to be very cautious with it.) And at the same time, ensuring that whatever that magic item was isn't too close to the films - thus a much brighter mithril. It's not cavalier or casual, even though the results might be, shall we say, mixed.

[PeterPirate]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, fortunately enough, my intellect, psyche and soul aren't dependent upon this show.  Nor am I expecting everything to line up with the books - because again, they don't have the rights to all the books.

(I've also pointed out the Earendil/mithril bit before.)

But it is fairly easy for me to explain how Gil-galad and Elrond knew some but not all of the First Age lore. They would know some just by virtue of actually witnessing it - Gil-galad was born in Valinor and was part of the whole Exile of the Noldor. Elrond was kidnapped by Maedhros and Maglor. So, yeah, these are people they personally knew. But that does not mean that they necessarily knew all of the lore of the First Age, including what happened to all three Silmarils other than, whoops, lost. With Maedhros in particular, since no one was there when he fell into the earth, no one would have known the specifics until Maedhros came out of the House of Mandos to tell them, or they received word from a Valar. And just when did one of the messengers start explaining interesting little details like this? Only after the One Ring was destroyed.  It's quite possible that the one message that they got from the Valar was just, yeah, they're gone. Or they heard something from Maglor (who is still alive), and pieced together other details. 

Tolkien is even pretty explicit here: the Wise do not know everything, and are often wrong. So although this mithril story doesn't appear in Tolkien's works, the idea of Gil-galad and Elrond not knowing the details of what happened to the Silmarils, or precisely where they are, does.

But I think a more important note here is your statement here:

This was a $1 billion show even before Covid raised production costs. All indications are that multiple Amazon executives, right up to Jeff Bezos, are taking a major interest in this show.

So I doubt anything on this show is done casually or cavalierly - including the fidelity to the source material. And not just because of hopes that fans of the Tolkien books will tune into the show (though probably that too.)  The threat of having to shut down a production at the cost of several thousand per day because of a rights issue is a very, very real one - along with the threat of having to remove material after filming. And in terms of picking apart the source material - Amazon spent millions for these rights, and I strongly suspect that they've told the showrunners to use things from the books - and someone seems to have encouraged the directors to use shots from the films.

And that, I think, might be part of the issue here? Because instead of creating some sort of original magic item that could cure the Elves, they had to work with something from Tolkien - while at the same time not using anything from Tolkien that they didn't have the rights to, and not irritating New Line by using something from the films that they also don't have the rights to (like, say, athelas, which was in the films, so they probably have to be very cautious with it.) And at the same time, ensuring that whatever that magic item was isn't too close to the films - thus a much brighter mithril. It's not cavalier or casual, even though the results might be, shall we say, mixed.

You and I are using two different metrics.  You are saying that Payne and McKay were neither casual nor cavalier in writing that mithril story without violating any legal obligations.  I am not disputing that.  

What I am saying is that they were casual and cavalier about respecting the source material.  If they had such respect they would not have touched the lore of the Silmarils at all. 

There is another aspect to consider.  Now that episode 7 has aired, it turns out the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true.  This contradicts--albeit indirectly--the reference to mithril in the Song of Earendil that Bilbo recited in FOTR.  If Payne and McKay were serious about the lore they would have thought through the implications of what they were writing.  But they didn't have to be serious, as long as what they wrote was legal.  

Edited October 10, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

You and I are using two different metrics.  You are saying that Payne and McKay were neither casual nor cavalier in writing that mithril story without violating any legal obligations.  I am not disputing that.  

What I am saying is that they were casual and cavalier about respecting the source material.  If they had such respect they would not have touched the lore of the Silmarils at all. 

There is another aspect to consider.  Now that episode 7 has aired, it turns out the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true.  This contradicts--albeit indirectly--the reference to mithril in the Song of Earendil that Bilbo recited in FOTR.  If Payne and McKay were serious about the lore they would have thought through the implications of what they were writing.  But they didn't have to be serious, as long as what they wrote was legal.  

I understand that the next season may not come out for two or three years and that some of us may not live to see the end of the show. However. there is a strong connecting theme of leaves/trees/true paths that runs through this season. The Harfoots follow the path and rely on the health of the trees, and the stranger seems to be good because he heals the trees. Because, see! Adar's Orcs not only cut down trees, as one might for wood, they cheer when a tree is destroyed. Going back to the beginning there is the endless tree that provides light, destroyed by Morgoth, and it's cuttings, the tree in Numenor. The tree in Numenor is losing leaves because Numenor has turned away from its responsibilities. Turned from the West. "Stop Looking to the West!"  So Gil Galad has a tree blight, himself, and I bet it is because he has wilfully turned from fighting evil on middle earth (hence his decision, perhaps not his to make, to let the soldiers back to the  blessed land, to get rid of them and Galadriel). He keeps Elrond from the council and the council decides to manipulate Elrond into getting Mithril for them, because he is greedy.

I think these various tree issues are connected and have nothing to do with mithril at all. The story Gil Galad tells is meant to flamboozle Elrond and the dwarves into giving the Elves mithril. He may actually be in denial about the growing evil, but he clearly suspects it is there, because he says so. Anyway, he pays the price.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Affogato

[quarks]

13 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

You and I are using two different metrics.  You are saying that Payne and McKay were neither casual nor cavalier in writing that mithril story without violating any legal obligations.  I am not disputing that.  

What I am saying is that they were casual and cavalier about respecting the source material.  If they had such respect they would not have touched the lore of the Silmarils at all. 

There is another aspect to consider.  Now that episode 7 has aired, it turns out the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true.  This contradicts--albeit indirectly--the reference to mithril in the Song of Earendil that Bilbo recited in FOTR.  If Payne and McKay were serious about the lore they would have thought through the implications of what they were writing.  But they didn't have to be serious, as long as what they wrote was legal.  

Again, not what I said. I said that nothing on this show, including respect for the source material, is done casually or cavalierly, despite all the myriad changes. Indeed, they've gone out of their way in some respects to reference the source material when it wasn't necessarily needed and arguably even took away needed time for character and plot development. 

But while we're chatting, no, episode 7 didn't confirm that the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true. It confirmed three things:

1. During the Second Age, mithril was capable of healing tree leaves. 

2. A Balrog is under Khazad-dum - which is faithful to the source material.

3. The Balrog is a very light sleeper, which is probably faithful to the source material.

But we still don't know, for certain, that the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true. It may be! But Gil-galad has been acting, how to put this, rather suspiciously (which right there is, I think, a greater deviation from canon than this), and I can think of several other explanations which would not contradict what we've seen on the show or the books:

1. Mithril does not come from the Silmarils at all, but has a power and magic infused by one of the Valar. (I'm assuming Aule, who has been name-dropped suspiciously often on this series.) Gil-galad and Celebrimbor want this magic, but know that if they tell Elrond the truth, Elrond will argue that Aule clearly meant this power for the Dwarves, not the Elves, and refuse to help them. And since Elrond is their only real way to get into Khazad-dum without fighting, they have chosen to manipulate him with this legend, playing on his feelings/fears about his father.

Or, alternatively, Sauron knows full well that mithril doesn't come from the Silmarils at all, but made up this legend so that Elves would feel they had a right to mithril - after all, the Elves made the Silmarils - and would fight with the Dwarves for it on that basis, weakening both races, and giving Sauron the chance to obtain this power for himself by just stealing it later.

Given 

2. Mithril does come from the Silmarils - but from when they were in Morgoth's crown, presumably near a couple of Balrogs. The legend later sprang up in the Second Age, from muddling together accounts of Elves fighting Balrogs, sometimes over Silmarils, and sometimes near trees that resembled the White Tree (as in Gondolin.) Once again, Sauron is pushing this legend for his own purposes.

3. Mithril does come from a Silmaril - but the one that eventually ended up with Earendil. We know that after Beren obtained this Silmaril it traveled around a lot, was briefly in the possession of Dwarves, and was in a number of battles. Various things could have happened with it.

But let's say that none of these explanations are true, and that the whole story of the Silmaril, the tree and the battle is true. In which case, I would still not describe this as a "casual" or "cavalier" approach to the canon (even leaving the production stuff aside). Why? 

Because Gil-galad says that the entire purpose here is to save the Elves in Middle-earth. And since this is all happening on a show called The Rings of Power, it's a pretty safe bet that at least one ring - presumably Galadriel's - will be made of mithril, as it was in the books. And what does Galadriel do with that Ring? She specifically uses it to save Elves - and create an Elven stronghold in Lothlorien.

Meanwhile, a few words from Tolkien on the subject, as he tried - after the publication of The Lord of the Rings - to make his earlier myths fit with modern astronomy:

"What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions....handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas."

Which is to say, Tolkien himself is on record as saying that the Silmarillion is not entirely accurate or canonical. 

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

Again, not what I said. I said that nothing on this show, including respect for the source material, is done casually or cavalierly, despite all the myriad changes. Indeed, they've gone out of their way in some respects to reference the source material when it wasn't necessarily needed and arguably even took away needed time for character and plot development. 

Fair enough.  But I stand by my opinion.  

7 hours ago, quarks said:

But while we're chatting, no, episode 7 didn't confirm that the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true. It confirmed three things:

1. During the Second Age, mithril was capable of healing tree leaves. 

2. A Balrog is under Khazad-dum - which is faithful to the source material.

3. The Balrog is a very light sleeper, which is probably faithful to the source material.

The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir speaks of large quantities of mithril under the Misty Mountains.  Episode 7 showed the presence of large quantities of mithril under the Misty Mountains (in a pattern that looks like roots as well).  I call that "confirmation".  

7 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Mithril does come from a Silmaril - but the one that eventually ended up with Earendil. We know that after Beren obtained this Silmaril it traveled around a lot, was briefly in the possession of Dwarves, and was in a number of battles. Various things could have happened with it

...

Meanwhile, a few words from Tolkien on the subject, as he tried - after the publication of The Lord of the Rings - to make his earlier myths fit with modern astronomy:

"What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions....handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas."

Which is to say, Tolkien himself is on record as saying that the Silmarillion is not entirely accurate or canonical. 

Here is part of the Song of Earendil that Bilbo wrote and recited in FOTR:

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame

Yes, one can come up with all sorts of ways to explain the contradictions between the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir and the Song of Earendil.  It is still, textually, a contradiction.  Just the fact that a person needs to explain the contradiction proves that the contradiction exists.  

And again, you and I are using different metrics.  To me it does not matter how much work they did to make the Song of Hithaeglir fit into the source material.  The fact that they messed with the lore of Silmarils at all shows they lack a sense of fidelity to the source material.

Edited October 11, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

7 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir speaks of large quantities of mithril under the Misty Mountains.  Episode 7 showed the presence of large quantities of mithril under the Misty Mountains (in a pattern that looks like roots as well).  I call that "confirmation".  

It's confirmation that large quantities of mithril exist under the Misty Mountains, and confirmation that mithril heals tree leaves.

It is not confirmation - yet - that the song is an accurate description of how the mithril got there in the first place. We know - it's canon from the script - that Gil-galad is not always entirely truthful. Nor is Elrond, who has confessed twice so far this season to misleading friends - first Galadriel, then younger Durin. 

Which fits right into this show, where virtually everyone other than the cultists (who haven't said anything) and the Stranger (who hasn't said much) has told at least one lie or concealed information or both.  We've seen at least one character conceal the truth from an entire country. We saw Durin make up a legend about certain type of stone in order to get a nice table in that same episode.

And before that, in episode two, we saw Celebrimbor see just how Elrond responded to the thought of the Silmarils. We later saw Celebrimbor use Earendil to persuade Elrond to do something about the mithril situation - even if this meant betraying his friend.

We also know that the followers of Sauron in the Southlands

It also seems that Sauron planted at least one or two prophecies in the Southland - and set up a secret cult there - presumably not telling the entire truth.

So what's more likely? This Song, which contradicts a couple of things in Tolkien's texts, is accurate description of how mithril got under Khazad-dum, is accurate, or that, like many other things on this show, it's wrong?

So, yes, we have evidence in the show to suggest that the song is not an accurate description of how mithril got there. But if it is, it's describing an alternate version of the story of Maedhros, whose Silmaril fell into the earth. 

21 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is part of the Song of Earendil that Bilbo wrote and recited in FOTR:

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame

Yes, one can come up with all sorts of ways to explain the contradictions between the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir and the Song of Earendil.  It is still, textually, a contradiction.  Just the fact that a person needs to explain the contradiction proves that the contradiction exists.  

(nods) I previously quoted this part of the song in this forum. But I don't think that it proves that the contradiction exists. Because, sure, it could be a direct contradiction of the books - or it could be proof that the Song isn't true, and someone is lying or mistaken or both.  As Tolkien said, the true stories - whatever they were - got blended and confused.

[PeterPirate]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

(nods) I previously quoted this part of the song in this forum. But I don't think that it proves that the contradiction exists. Because, sure, it could be a direct contradiction of the books - or it could be proof that the Song isn't true, and someone is lying or mistaken or both.  As Tolkien said, the true stories - whatever they were - got blended and confused.

Well, I won't argue over the meaning of the word "confirmation".  Because ultimately it does not matter if the story is true.  What matters is that Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor thought it might be true, and took the story seriously enough to send Elrond to the Misty Mountains to see if mithril was there.  

And they could not believe the story might be true and simultaneously believe Elrond's father was sailing the heavens in a ship made of mithril, and was carrying one of the Silmarils as he did so.

In other words, if they believed Elrond's father was sailing the heavens with a Silmaril in a ship made of mithril, they could not even entertain the notion that it took a Silmaril to create mithril and/or that the location of the mithril created by a Silmaril was unknown to the Elves.  

Yes, one can say the that lore of the Elves changed over time.  But that is not showing fidelity to the lore (according to my definition of "fidelity" and the manner in which I choose to apply it in this context).  

Edited October 12, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, I won't argue over the meaning of the word "confirmation".  Because ultimately it does not matter if the story is true.  What matters is that Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor thought it might be true, and took the story seriously enough to send Elrond to the Misty Mountains to see if mithril was there.  

And they could not believe the story might be true and simultaneously believe Elrond's father was sailing the heavens in a ship made of mithril, and was carrying one of the Silmarils as he did so.

In other words, if they believed Elrond's father was sailing the heavens with a Silmaril in a ship made of mithril, they could not even entertain the notion that it took a Silmaril to create mithril and/or that the location of the mithril created by a Silmaril was unknown to the Elves.  

Yes, one can say the that lore of the Elves changed over time.  But that is not showing fidelity to the lore (according to my definition of "fidelity" and the manner in which I choose to apply it in this context).  

And that's the thing, isn't it? Your entire argument that the showrunners have been casual/cavalier and so on with the source material rests on the belief not just that Gil-galad and Celebrimbor know the story is true, but that the story is true - despite several indications on this show that suggest otherwise:

1. Numerous Dwarves, Numenoreans, and Southlanders expressing distrust of the Elves. 

2. Gil-galad not being entirely truthful with Galadriel (episode 1), asking Elrond to manipulate her (also episode 1), and then following this up with not being entirely truthful with Elrond for several episodes. Add in that he announced that the war had ended despite knowing that the tree was showing signs of poison/death, and that he has not been entirely truthful about just why he was summoning home the Elf scouts/guards - and, as far as we can tell so far, hasn't bothered to see why so many of them haven't returned to Lindon - and I think we are meant to eye him at least somewhat suspiciously.

(That, by the way, I would take as a larger break with canon than some of the concerns you've raised.  Granted, we don't see much of Gil-galad in the books, so it's hard to get a firm grasp on his character, but nothing that we do see of him suggests that he would be this manipulative or shortsighted.)

3. Celebrimbor also not being fully honest with Elrond and rather blatantly manipulating him with memories of his father.

4. The myriad fake-outs/deceptions on this show.

5. The way this story feels virtually tailor-made to convince Elrond to go get mithril from the Dwarves instead of focusing on other potential solutions to the tree problem.

6. The fact that someone - or someones - planted several prophecies and stories in the Southlands to manipulate the humans there. 

Here's what we do know: Gil-galad and Celebrimbor have reasons to suspect that a magical, powerful metal is underneath Khazad-drum. Possibly from the story. Or, possibly, from some sort of Elven magic of seeing at great distances - something similar to the Mirror of Galadriel or a palantir. Or, possibly because one or both of them witnessed Maedhros falling into a crack in the earth  Or, possibly from prior visits to Khazad-dum. Or, possibly from Sauron. They use this story to convince Elrond to convince the Dwarves to mine mithril and hand it over. 

And several sections of the internet immediately squawk "BUT THIS STORY IS ALL WRONG!"

And, you know, it is! To the point where it feels more wrong than some of the other changes - the major time compression, the way Mount Doom can apparently be activated by an Evil Sword (I mean, ok, that's not not in the books and we can probably assume that something has changed Mount Doom given that Frodo, Sam and Gollum are all able to just....walk right up the volcano part, but still), Galadriel apparently spending centuries if not longer thinking that Celeborn is dead, the way Gil-galad seems to be claiming that he had the right to choose who could return to Valinor, and so on. Granted, some of this - notably the time compression - can be explained away by "television," and I think it's increasingly likely that Gil-galad was not entirely truthful about the Valinor thing, either (well, we know that he and Elrond had other reasons for wanting Galadriel to leave besides rewarding her). All changes. None, I think, feel as wrong.

Maybe, just maybe, because - as many of the camera angles and the way Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are acting -  it is wrong? A lie? 

(looks at clock) I guess we might know in another hour or so....or in the next season.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

And that's the thing, isn't it? Your entire argument that the showrunners have been casual/cavalier and so on with the source material rests on the belief not just that Gil-galad and Celebrimbor know the story is true, but that the story is true

Well, no.  My opinion is based on the fact that Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor believe it might be true.  I even underlined "might" in my previous post.  

Consider this exchange from episode 5:  

Gil-Galad:  Are you familiar with the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir?  Recite it for me please.  
Elrond:  An obscure legend regarded by most to be apocryphal.  

So not only had Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor heard the story, so had Elrond and, apparently, other Elves.  

And none of them--especially Elrond--could entertain the notion the story might be true if they already believed Elrond's father was sailing the heavens in a sky-ship made from mithril.  

[RobertDeSneero]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:15 AM, quarks said:

1. Mithril does not come from the Silmarils at all, but has a power and magic infused by one of the Valar. (I'm assuming Aule, who has been name-dropped suspiciously often on this series.) Gil-galad and Celebrimbor want this magic, but know that if they tell Elrond the truth, Elrond will argue that Aule clearly meant this power for the Dwarves, not the Elves, and refuse to help them. And since Elrond is their only real way to get into Khazad-dum without fighting, they have chosen to manipulate him with this legend, playing on his feelings/fears about his father.

I think it's implied that mithril's qualities stem from "light".  Gil-Galad seems to believe that the existence of mithril proves that a Silmaril was hidden in the tree, suggesting that the key ingredient is the light of the Two Trees contained within the Silmaril.

Elrond's retelling says merely that some claimed it was hidden there, but the song says that a mighty elf poured "all of his light"--his life?--into the tree, so maybe it doesn't come from a Silmaril.  Whichever explanation, it makes sense that this light captured by mithril could be helpful to replenish the "fading light of the Eldar".

Maybe this leads to Sauron crafting the One Ring by stealing the light within an elf, killing them.

It is also possible that the mithril in the show has a unique origin due to the Balrog and the lightning --what if the Valar sent special lightning?--and that there previously had been some sort of mithril, called something else at the time, that was made directly from the light of the Two Trees rather than indirectly, so had different qualities and may not have been obviously recognized as the same substance.

[quarks]

18 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

And none of them--especially Elrond--could entertain the notion the story might be true if they already believed Elrond's father was sailing the heavens in a sky-ship made from mithril.  

Unless, that is, someone was manipulating their minds and bending their thoughts.

Which we just saw Sauron/Halbrand do to both Celebrimbor and Galadriel in the season finale.

And possibly also to all of the humans who were "healing" him in the previous episode and to the Elves who were "healing" him in this episode. And quite possibly to Gil-galad and Elrond, as well, who were both surprisingly "Sure, let's let this strange guy accompanying Galadriel into our city just as we are rapidly losing our power without asking why I mean it's only Galadriel, the person we were trying to get out of here not all that long ago because we thought she would bring evil to us."

It also seems at least possible that the cultists have a similar ability, so although they are very bad at identifying specific Maiar, they might be better at spreading the lies of a certain Maiar.

[quarks]

12 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think it's implied that mithril's qualities stem from "light".  Gil-Galad seems to believe that the existence of mithril proves that a Silmaril was hidden in the tree, suggesting that the key ingredient is the light of the Two Trees contained within the Silmaril.

Elrond's retelling says merely that some claimed it was hidden there, but the song says that a mighty elf poured "all of his light"--his life?--into the tree, so maybe it doesn't come from a Silmaril.  Whichever explanation, it makes sense that this light captured by mithril could be helpful to replenish the "fading light of the Eldar".

Maybe this leads to Sauron crafting the One Ring by stealing the light within an elf, killing them.

It is also possible that the mithril in the show has a unique origin due to the Balrog and the lightning --what if the Valar sent special lightning?--and that there previously had been some sort of mithril, called something else at the time, that was made directly from the light of the Two Trees rather than indirectly, so had different qualities and may not have been obviously recognized as the same substance.

I like this - yet more ways for "light" to be mithril without needing to come from a Silmaril at all.

Though I rather hope this doesn't lead to Sauron killing Arondir in order to create the One Ring. 

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

Unless, that is, someone was manipulating their minds and bending their thoughts.

Which we just saw Sauron/Halbrand do to both Celebrimbor and Galadriel in the season finale.

And possibly also to all of the humans who were "healing" him in the previous episode and to the Elves who were "healing" him in this episode. And quite possibly to Gil-galad and Elrond, as well, who were both surprisingly "Sure, let's let this strange guy accompanying Galadriel into our city just as we are rapidly losing our power without asking why I mean it's only Galadriel, the person we were trying to get out of here not all that long ago because we thought she would bring evil to us."

It also seems at least possible that the cultists have a similar ability, so although they are very bad at identifying specific Maiar, they might be better at spreading the lies of a certain Maiar.

Well, let's understand the implications of this theory:  

1.  Sauron has implanted the Song of the Roots of Hithaelglir into the minds of Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Elrond, and any number of other Elves.  This includes Galadriel, who is now in Lindon and is aware that rings of power are being fashioned from mithril.  

2A.  Sauron has erased from their minds knowledge of the materials used to create Earendil's sky-ship, or
2B.  Sauron has erased from their minds the ability to recognize the contradiction; 

3.  The power of mithril to heal the leaf from the Great Tree--and its explosive resistance to being alloyed with lesser metals--comes from an alternate source instead of a Silmaril.  

4.  Sauron's power to warp Elven minds, and the alternate source for the power of mithril, has to be revealed in the show at a later date.  This will also reveal that much of season 1 was a massive fakeout.    

Barring all of these conditions happening, the remaining interpretation is that Payne and McKay came up with what they thought was a cool way to explain how the power got into the rings of power.  And since it did not directly contradict the canon (ie, "Tolkien never said that mithril didn't come from a Silmaril"), they were legally allowed to put the story into the show.  

Edited October 15, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

17 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, let's understand the implications of this theory:  

1.  Sauron has implanted the Song of the Roots of Hithaelglir into the minds of Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Elrond, and any number of other Elves.  This includes Galadriel, who is now in Lindon and is aware that rings of power are being fashioned from mithril.  

2A.  Sauron has erased from their minds knowledge of the materials used to create Earendil's sky-ship, or
2B.  Sauron has erased from their minds the ability to recognize the contradiction; 

3.  The power of mithril to heal the leaf from the Great Tree--and its explosive resistance to being alloyed with lesser metals--comes from an alternate source instead of a Silmaril.  

4.  Sauron's power to warp Elven minds, and the alternate source for the power of mithril, has to be revealed in the show at a later date.  This will also reveal that much of season 1 was a massive fakeout.    

Barring all of these conditions happening, the remaining interpretation is that Payne and McKay came up with what they thought was a cool way to explain how the power got into the rings of power.  And since it did not directly contradict the canon (ie, "Tolkien never said that mithril didn't come from a Silmaril"), they were legally allowed to put the story into the show.  

Or alternatively:

1. Sauron or someone else wrote the song thousands of years ago - thus why the Elves are familiar with it.  But as Elrond said, they also dismissed it as a legend. That is, the Elves knew the song. They just didn't believe it until recently.

2. Again, they may genuinely not know at this particular point in time that mithril was used to create Earendil's ship. You keep stating this knowledge as a fact, but both the books and the show suggest the exact opposite. 

Earendil's mithril ship was built in Valinor, a place that Gil-galad has not visited since the Noldor left it at the start of the first Age. Neither Gil-galad nor Elrond has seen the ship up close, and as Elrond reminded us several times this season, his knowledge of his father is pretty incomplete. Gil-galad seems to have very little interest in metallurgy and forging (consistent with the texts).

And although this hasn't been said explicitly on the show, all indications are that Gil-galad does not have a consistent, reliable way to communicate with Valinor. That's part of the tree problem right there - Gil-galad is guessing, because he can't ask the experts. This is very consistent with the texts, where Gil-galad, again, does not have a consistent, reliable way to communicate with Valinor. All he can do is relay the occasional messages back and forth to Tol Eressea - and hope those messages are passed on to Valinor. Communications take hundreds to thousands of years.

Under the circumstances, it frankly would be surprising to find out that Elrond and Gil-galad know what metals were used to build Earendil's ship. They didn't see it built. It's not something that would interest Gil-galad. But do you know who would have been very interested and quite possibly witnessed the shipbuilding process, or even helped?

Saruman, who is not going to be showing up until the Third Age, but who will, when he does, spend significant time talking to Elrond and other Elves at Rivendell.

Another possible if less likely informant could have been Glorfindel - who, again, isn't going to be showing up (again) in Middle-Earth until the Third Age. But once he does, hmm. He's right there at Rivendell, able to give Bilbo some insider knowledge.

3. Or, again, that there are several potential sources for mithril's power. A Valar (Aule was frequently name-dropped this season.). The life force of an Elf. Or a Silmaril - either when it was in Morgoth's crown (which would actually explain how mithril ended up in Valinor - it was created while Morgoth was holding the Silmarils in Valinor), or when one was in the possession of Beren/Dior/Maedhros.

4. We....literally just saw Sauron's power to warp Elven minds in this last episode. Not just with Galadriel, but with Celebrimbor. It's not clear what happened with Adar, but Adar has at least been successfully deceived.

And although this hasn't been confirmed, the show has also very strongly hinted that Sauron has warped the minds of the Southlanders, Bronwyn, the Elven healers in Eregion, Pharazon, and Gil-galad.

5. We also literally just saw New Line exercise their copyright/trademark rights over the show, forcing the show to redesign three new Elven Rings of Power because New Line still holds the trademarks (read, merchandising rights) over the versions that appeared in the Jackson films. That is, lawyers are paying very, very close attention to this.

Given all this, and bearing in mind that this was all scripted/filmed while Priscilla Tolkien was still alive, and the fact that Simon Tolkien continues to appear in the credits, what is more likely:

A: The story, which contradicts the texts, is true.

B: The story, which contradicts the texts, is not true, but the showrunners and Sauron have found it useful for their purposes, and thus, are using it. And in doing so - showing Sauron deceiving people - they are showing a surprising fidelity to the source material, at least on this point.

[PeterPirate]

13 hours ago, quarks said:

1. Sauron or someone else wrote the song thousands of years ago - thus why the Elves are familiar with it.  But as Elrond said, they also dismissed it as a legend. That is, the Elves knew the song. They just didn't believe it until recently.

If Elrond knew his father's ship was made of mithril, he would have dismissed the story as impossible, not apocryphal.  

13 hours ago, quarks said:

2. Again, they may genuinely not know at this particular point in time that mithril was used to create Earendil's ship. You keep stating this knowledge as a fact, but both the books and the show suggest the exact opposite. 

Earendil's mithril ship was built in Valinor, a place that Gil-galad has not visited since the Noldor left it at the start of the first Age. Neither Gil-galad nor Elrond has seen the ship up close, and as Elrond reminded us several times this season, his knowledge of his father is pretty incomplete. Gil-galad seems to have very little interest in metallurgy and forging (consistent with the texts).

And although this hasn't been said explicitly on the show, all indications are that Gil-galad does not have a consistent, reliable way to communicate with Valinor. That's part of the tree problem right there - Gil-galad is guessing, because he can't ask the experts. This is very consistent with the texts, where Gil-galad, again, does not have a consistent, reliable way to communicate with Valinor. All he can do is relay the occasional messages back and forth to Tol Eressea - and hope those messages are passed on to Valinor. Communications take hundreds to thousands of years.

Under the circumstances, it frankly would be surprising to find out that Elrond and Gil-galad know what metals were used to build Earendil's ship. They didn't see it built. It's not something that would interest Gil-galad. But do you know who would have been very interested and quite possibly witnessed the shipbuilding process, or even helped?

Saruman, who is not going to be showing up until the Third Age, but who will, when he does, spend significant time talking to Elrond and other Elves at Rivendell.

Another possible if less likely informant could have been Glorfindel - who, again, isn't going to be showing up (again) in Middle-Earth until the Third Age. But once he does, hmm. He's right there at Rivendell, able to give Bilbo some insider knowledge. 

All lore is subject to change over time.  But using that argument acknowledges the lore has been broken.  

13 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Or, again, that there are several potential sources for mithril's power. A Valar (Aule was frequently name-dropped this season.). The life force of an Elf. Or a Silmaril - either when it was in Morgoth's crown (which would actually explain how mithril ended up in Valinor - it was created while Morgoth was holding the Silmarils in Valinor), or when one was in the possession of Beren/Dior/Maedhros.

If this comes to pass, it will mean much of what we were presented season 1 was untrue.  It will be a Pam-finds-Bobby-in-the-shower level in-show retcon.  There will be little reason to be invested in the storylines because everything will be subject to change from one season to the next.  

13 hours ago, quarks said:

4. We....literally just saw Sauron's power to warp Elven minds in this last episode. Not just with Galadriel, but with Celebrimbor. It's not clear what happened with Adar, but Adar has at least been successfully deceived.

And although this hasn't been confirmed, the show has also very strongly hinted that Sauron has warped the minds of the Southlanders, Bronwyn, the Elven healers in Eregion, Pharazon, and Gil-galad.

If this comes to pass it will mean everything Gil-Galad, Elrond, Celebrimbor, and Galadriel say and do for the rest of the series can be attributed to Sauron.  There will be less reason to be invested in the characters because they will have no real agency.  

13 hours ago, quarks said:

5. We also literally just saw New Line exercise their copyright/trademark rights over the show, forcing the show to redesign three new Elven Rings of Power because New Line still holds the trademarks (read, merchandising rights) over the versions that appeared in the Jackson films. That is, lawyers are paying very, very close attention to this.

As I have indicated before, the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir creates an indirect conflict with the existing lore.  It does not refer to Earendil's ship, so it does not directly contradict Bilbo's Song of Earendil.  One has to think carefully about the two songs to see that a contradiction exists.  

The lawyers may be paying very, very close attention to these matters, but apparently they can only react to copyright infringements after they have occurred, not prevent them from occurring in the first place.  

13 hours ago, quarks said:

A: The story, which contradicts the texts, is true.

B: The story, which contradicts the texts, is not true, but the showrunners and Sauron have found it useful for their purposes, and thus, are using it. And in doing so - showing Sauron deceiving people - they are showing a surprising fidelity to the source material, at least on this point.

Until Payne and McKay craft a new story that fits Scenario B, Scenario A is what stands right now, which means the show contradicts the texts, the lore has been broken, and the showrunners have not shown surprising fidelity to the source material.  

I would also add that if Scenario B comes to pass, and Payne and McKay intend to fundamentally change the story presented in the first season (as opposed to being forced to change things by the lawyers) it will an acknowledgement on their part that the first season was severely flawed.  

Frankly, I find it unfathomable that they wrote season 1 with the intention of throwing out half of it in later seasons.  That's more than showing a lack of fidelity to the source material, it's showing a lack of fidelity to their own material and to the people who have thus far invested their time and energy watching it.  

Edited October 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

On 10/16/2022 at 1:24 AM, PeterPirate said:

If Elrond knew his father's ship was made of mithril, he would have dismissed the story as impossible, not apocryphal.  

And again, all indications from the show and the texts are that Elrond did not know his father's ship was made of mithril - and had no way of knowing this until the Third Age, when Saruman and Glorfindel came from Valinor to Middle-earth. Something reaffirmed in the season finale, which reminded us this episode that Elrond has not seen Earendil since he was a young boy. This is consistent with the texts, which state that Maglor, not Earendil, raised Elrond and Elros, and consistent with the many texts noting that communications between Middle-earth and Tol Eressea (let alone Valinor) 

Which is to say, your argument that this all shows lack of fidelity to the source material shows....lack of fidelity to the source material.

On 10/16/2022 at 1:24 AM, PeterPirate said:

All lore is subject to change over time.  But using that argument acknowledges the lore has been broken.  

Again, there's nothing in the lore that indicates that Elrond and Gil-galad would have any idea what materials were used to build Earendil's ship until the Third Age.

And there's quite a few things in the show that indicates that this story is not true - and therefore, hasn't broken the lore at all.

And, since we're talking canon, and changing over time, the source texts for The Silmarillion include several bits like this:

"This have I, Pengolod, added here, for it was not known until Rumil."

Which is to say, Tolkien's own writings use the conceit that the original writers (Rumil, Bilbo, Frodo, and so on) did not know the full story, requiring later historians to add comments/full paragraphs/more information.

On 10/16/2022 at 1:24 AM, PeterPirate said:

If this comes to pass, it will mean much of what we were presented season 1 was untrue.  It will be a Pam-finds-Bobby-in-the-shower level in-show retcon.  There will be little reason to be invested in the storylines because everything will be subject to change from one season to the next.  

Well, no. The Pam/Bobby moment eliminated an entire season of Dallas, including stuff that had nothing to do with Pam and Bobby. It was also something that the soap opera had never done before.

Revealing that the Silmaril/Balrog story is untrue? Doesn't change anything that happened on the show outside of that one five minute scene. Everything else remains the same: Mount Doom still blows up; the Rings still get made; Miriel still becomes blind; Alondir and Bronwyn still fall in love; Nori and the Stranger still become friends. All it does is allow viewers to perceive some things that happened in the first season differently. 

Pretty much the exact same thing that happened with the Halbrand/Sauron reveal - which this would, not incidentally, be a natural follow-up to.

On 10/16/2022 at 1:24 AM, PeterPirate said:

If this comes to pass it will mean everything Gil-Galad, Elrond, Celebrimbor, and Galadriel say and do for the rest of the series can be attributed to Sauron.  There will be less reason to be invested in the characters because they will have no real agency.  

Again, no? As Sauron just pointed out, Galadriel went against his wishes several times this season - he wanted to stay in Numenor. She didn't. Gil-galad left Eregion 

Sauron is deceiving the Elves and in a couple of very specific moments doing something to their minds. It doesn't mean that they lack agency.  We saw that with Smeagol/Gollum and Frodo - they both were under the influence of the Ring, but that didn't mean that they lacked agency.

On 10/16/2022 at 1:24 AM, PeterPirate said:

Until Payne and McKay craft a new story that fits Scenario B, Scenario A is what stands right now, which means the show contradicts the texts, the lore has been broken, and the showrunners have not shown surprising fidelity to the source material.  

I would also add that if Scenario B comes to pass, and Payne and McKay intend to fundamentally change the story presented in the first season (as opposed to being forced to change things by the lawyers) it will an acknowledgement on their part that the first season was severely flawed.  

Frankly, I find it unfathomable that they wrote season 1 with the intention of throwing out half of it in later seasons.  That's more than showing a lack of fidelity to the source material, it's showing a lack of fidelity to their own material and to the people who have thus far invested their time and energy watching it.  

It might surprise you to learn that I, too, find it unfathomable that they would write season 1 with the intention of throwing out half of it in later seasons. 

Which is why I don't think that they did. 

All reporting - including stuff released well before the first episode - indicates that the showrunners not only have a five season commitment from Amazon, but have all five seasons of the show planned out and approved of by Amazon and the Tolkien Estate. 

That would include a later reveal (possibly in the Sauron-centric second season, possibly later) that Sauron came to Lindon and poisoned the tree (as speculated by numerous fans), and while there tries (and fails) to get his worst enemy, Galadriel, out of the way by suggesting that she's just as likely to stir up evil as to destroy it if she stays in Middle-earth (also as speculated by numerous fans), and, by the way, does anyone remember that old song about the Elf and the Balrog fighting in a tree? Oh, discounted, of course, but it's very pretty. Let me sing it to you now. 

This not only fits with the show's whole mystery box/shocking reveal J.J. Abrams narrative structure (which, incidentally, is considerably more against Tolkien's work than anything we are discussing here), and its ongoing desire to do the see, you THOUGHT X but actually Y, but also fits in with the canon and the lore of both the show and the texts. And it would not, as you are trying to suggest, be any sort of admission of issues with the first season - because it would have been part of the planning for the first season.

And, of course, it would show fidelity to the lore - if not to Tolkien's storytelling style.

Would I have written it this way? No. But I haven't spent the past decade working with/for Bad Robot, either.

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, quarks said:

And again, all indications from the show and the texts are that Elrond did not know his father's ship was made of mithril - and had no way of knowing this until the Third Age, when Saruman and Glorfindel came from Valinor to Middle-earth.

Again, you and I are using different metrics to define what it means to break the lore.  

The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir contradicts the Song of Earendil.  In my definition of breaking lore, that is breaking lore.  

Any logical argument that relies on the fact that lore can change over time is invalid to me.  You have your standard, I have mine.  

Or, to put it another way, your mileage may vary.  

15 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, no. The Pam/Bobby moment eliminated an entire season of Dallas, including stuff that had nothing to do with Pam and Bobby. It was also something that the soap opera had never done before.

Revealing that the Silmaril/Balrog story is untrue? Doesn't change anything that happened on the show outside of that one five minute scene.

Except that they showed the leaf from the Great Tree healed by the mithril.  If they are going to throw away the Silmaril story they are going to have to come up with another reason for how mithril gets its power.  And explain how the Elves come to learn the truth.  I'd like to see someone try to come up with a scenario that will work.  

Even the "It's magic" explanation will be problematic, because it will mean the rings of power get their power from magic that the Elves have, but don't know they have.  

Considering that mithril is the source of power for the rings of power, and this show is titled Rings of Power, I would consider such a change to be as significant as the Dallas switcheroo. 

15 hours ago, quarks said:

Quote

If this comes to pass it will mean everything Gil-Galad, Elrond, Celebrimbor, and Galadriel say and do for the rest of the series can be attributed to Sauron.  There will be less reason to be invested in the characters because they will have no real agency.  

Sauron is deceiving the Elves and in a couple of very specific moments doing something to their minds. It doesn't mean that they lack agency.  We saw that with Smeagol/Gollum and Frodo - they both were under the influence of the Ring, but that didn't mean that they lacked agency.

I used the phrase "no real agency".  Meaning that if your proposition is true we will have to watch the show and wonder if anything they say and do has been caused by Sauron's mind-control powers.  Why didn't Galadriel tell the others that Halbrand was Sauron?  Was it a choice she made, or did Sauron make it for her?  What's the point in thinking about Galadriel's choices if in the end it was really Sauron who was controlling her?  

15 hours ago, quarks said:

That would include a later reveal (possibly in the Sauron-centric second season, possibly later) that Sauron came to Lindon and poisoned the tree (as speculated by numerous fans), and while there tries (and fails) to get his worst enemy, Galadriel, out of the way by suggesting that she's just as likely to stir up evil as to destroy it if she stays in Middle-earth (also as speculated by numerous fans), and, by the way, does anyone remember that old song about the Elf and the Balrog fighting in a tree? Oh, discounted, of course, but it's very pretty. Let me sing it to you now. 

This not only fits with the show's whole mystery box/shocking reveal J.J. Abrams narrative structure (which, incidentally, is considerably more against Tolkien's work than anything we are discussing here), and its ongoing desire to do the see, you THOUGHT X but actually Y,

No, according to your proposition, we were TOLD and SHOWN X, but later on we will be TOLD and SHOWN Y.  If that happens it will be throwing out half of the first season.  And the most important part, too--how the rings of power get their power.  I don't know of another instance of this except for the Bobby Ewing thing. 

Frankly, I think this "They are going to change things in later seasons" rationale is a response to feeling that the rings-of-power-get-their-power-from-mithril-that-gets-its-power-from-a-Silmaril story line isso, well, unfathomable that Payne and McKay could not have possibly intended to stick with it.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

12 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Frankly, I think this "They are going to change things in later seasons" rationale is a response to feeling that the rings-of-power-get-their-power-from-mithril-that-gets-its-power-from-a-Silmaril story line isso, well, unfathomable that Payne and McKay could not have possibly intended to stick with it.  

Well, I wouldn't say unfathomable, but I would agree that Payne and McKay aren't intending to stick with it - at least not entirely. And my "They are going to do twist reveals in later seasons" frankly comes a lot less from my response to/feeling about this mithril story and a lot more from watching a number of Bad Robot productions - the company that Payne and McKay worked with prior to working on this show. 

But I'd like to deviate for just a moment - it will be relevant, I promise - to a passage from Unfinished Tales:

"The Numenoreans in their own land possessed horses, which they esteemed. But they did not use them in war; for all their wars were overseas. Also they were of great stature and strength, and their fully-equipped soldiers were accustomed to bear heavy armour and weapons. In their settlements on the shores of Middle-earth they acquired and bred horses, but used them little for riding, except in sport and pleasure. In war they were used only by courtiers, and by bodies of light-armed archers (often not of Numenorean race)."

Tolkien never updated this passage, or disputed it in later writings, unlike, say, some of the lore this show has chosen to run with - including, hilariously enough, much of the story of Earendil). 

And yet what did we see on the show?

Numenoreans, fighting on horseback. Not just the Elf and the fallen Maia, but multiple Numenoreans.

Pretty straightforward contradiction of the text there. And sure, this is a text that the show doesn't technically have rights to - but Peter Jackson didn't have rights to this text either, and yet, in his films, the Numenoreans are fighting on foot.

Ok, let's go back to mithril. 

For the record, "The Song of Hithaeglir" only breaks canon/lore if the story is true and if the canon/lore is consistent.

So let's talk about the canon/lore one more time.  Bilbo's song states that Earendil's mithril ship was built in Valinor. Gandalf tells us, in that same book, that Moria is the only place in the entire world where mithril can be found. 

If both of these statements are true, it raises a very real question: how, exactly, did that mithril get to Valinor?

After all, according to the lore, the Eldar left Middle-earth for Valinor before the Dwarves awoke and began mining anything. So they couldn't have taken it to Valinor. And also, according to the lore, none of them returned - even the Teleri on their ships - until the Darkening of the Trees. And we know that no one sailed to Tol Eressea or Valinor after that - until Earendil. 

Kinda a canonical muddle, wouldn't you say? And that's before we get into the whole problem that in Bilbo's song - the one you are claiming as absolute canon lore - states "A ship then new they built for him," ["they" being the people in Tol Eressea and Valinor], but in other versions, including the one in the published Silmarillion, they just used the old ship, which wasn't built of mithril, but wood:

"...golden were its oars and white its timbers, hewn in the birchwoods of Nimbrethil, and its sails were as the argent moon."

After that ship arrived in Valinor, the Valar took it, "and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world.....Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Earendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with the dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world."

No mention of mithril. 

And that's before we mention the version written in the late 1960s, and reprinted in The Nature of Middle-earth, which states that the Elves first saw the Morning/Evening Star well before Earendil was even born. 

So, to recap: the canon lore about mithril/Earendil, muddled; the Numenorean horses, not muddled.

And yet the squawking here - and to be fair, elsewhere - isn't about the real, unquestioned break with canon - the horses - but with mithril, where there is no consistent canon.

Interesting.

Some of this is, I suspect, because this show has contained a number of misconceptions and lies - not all, I should note, stemming from Sauron. After all, one very solid reason to doubt this entire story and the mithril/health of the Elves connection is that in that very same episode, Durin lied - quite convincingly - about the table, and Isildur concealed the truth - a lot less convincingly - about Kemen, and a good half of the villagers were like, yeah, we're going to go off with the Clearly Evil Folks instead of the Elves. It was not exactly an episode designed to inspire confidence. Beyond that, none of the Elves in the show, including the background extras, appear to be suffering from any sort of illness at all - one very significant reason to doubt that this entire story is true.

But I suspect that at least some of the reaction is because the story feels wrong. And that's because, although it may include some true elements (Balrog evil, Silmaril light, mithril definitely exists), it is wrong.

On 10/18/2022 at 7:20 AM, PeterPirate said:

I don't know of another instance of this except for the Bobby Ewing thing. 

St. Elsewhere rather infamously threw out its entire six season run, as did Newhart. 

Examples of the "So, you thought X, but it turns out it was Y the whole time," include, but are not limited to, Westworld (which, not coincidentally, the Rings of Power showrunners worked on); Fringe, The Good Place, Revenge, the second season of American Horror Story, the second season of Nancy Drew, Wandavision, seasons 4/5 of the recent Voltron reboot, and several individual episodes of various genre TV shows. It's a pretty common technique.

[PeterPirate]

8 hours ago, quarks said:

After all, according to the lore, the Eldar left Middle-earth for Valinor before the Dwarves awoke and began mining anything. So they couldn't have taken it to Valinor. And also, according to the lore, none of them returned - even the Teleri on their ships - until the Darkening of the Trees. And we know that no one sailed to Tol Eressea or Valinor after that - until Earendil. 

Kinda a canonical muddle, wouldn't you say? And that's before we get into the whole problem that in Bilbo's song - the one you are claiming as absolute canon lore - states "A ship then new they built for him," ["they" being the people in Tol Eressea and Valinor], but in other versions, including the one in the published Silmarillion, they just used the old ship, which wasn't built of mithril, but wood:

Yes, I agree.  The show does not break canon if the canon itself is inconsistent.  Regardless of what it means to "hallow" a ship, Earendil's ship could not be made from mithril if the only source of mithril was Moria.  

Using that template, to my knowledge the lore the Silmarils has no inconsistencies.  And the show refers to the "last", "lost" Silmaril.  

8 hours ago, quarks said:

St. Elsewhere rather infamously threw out its entire six season run, as did Newhart. 

Those shows didn't throw out anything.  They just wrapped up their fiction by having creative ways to explain the source of the fiction.  Dallas produced threw out a part of their fiction.  

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Examples of the "So, you thought X, but it turns out it was Y the whole time," include, but are not limited to, Westworld (which, not coincidentally, the Rings of Power showrunners worked on); Fringe, The Good Place, Revenge, the second season of American Horror Story, the second season of Nancy Drew, Wandavision, seasons 4/5 of the recent Voltron reboot, and several individual episodes of various genre TV shows. It's a pretty common technique.

I can't speak to the other shows you mentioned,  But I still hold there is a difference between what we think and what we are shown.  Or, to put it another way, there is a difference between what is inferred and what is definitive.  Whatever twist they might come up with will have to incorporate the power of mithril to heal the leaf from the Great Tree.  That was shown and definitively so.  

And in the end, while it is possible there might be a significant change to the story line in later seasons--and I would be interested in reading others' speculations--I think it best to analyze what we were presented.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Affogato]

It occurred to me that a psychic link of some sort would explain why Haldbrand knew that Galadriel was going to jump into the ocean and where he could fish her out of the ocean. Carrying it further, he probably planted the bits of evidence that kept her obsessively searching for him, the signals and signs, and might even have been able to push her to jump into the water, through a mental connection,  when she was in danger of being carried out of his reach.

My impression is that Sauron had access to Galadriels mind later as a function of the One Ring (and the ring she wore).

So, just an idea.

I don't know if we have figured out exactly why Sauron would want Galadriel, but even after the reveal if he has entrance to her mind he will have information from the elven and human camp.

So stories tend to point to a direct connection between some trauma and the making of a hero, and while women get stories where they lose a child and take in a bunch of orphans, men take up a cause no one believes in, gather armies, and lead them against the threat no one accepts until it is to late. At the beginning Galadriel has presented as the latter sort of hero, but now we learn she is a victim of a stronger minded man. I suppose she will, after she waffles a bit, return to beg help from the elven patriarchy and learn to resist Sauron's mind probes. Meanwhile Adar will be the true leader of the resistance in the second season, as is only proper. Another traumatized elf, but a boy elf.

Have we seen any other female elves in speaking parts? I don't remember any in the outpost in the southlands, or in Gil-Galad's circle.

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

  Whatever twist they might come up with will have to incorporate the power of mithril to heal the leaf from the Great Tree.  That was shown and definitively so. 

Well, if the tree is faltering because the elves are turning away from their path, like errant Harfoots, then the leaf could have healed as a sign they had moved in the right direction. The mithril could be a coincidence.

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

Examples of the "So, you thought X, but it turns out it was Y the whole time," include, but are not limited to, Westworld (which, not coincidentally, the Rings of Power showrunners worked on); Fringe, The Good Place, Revenge, the second season of American Horror Story, the second season of Nancy Drew, Wandavision, seasons 4/5 of the recent Voltron reboot, and several individual episodes of various genre TV shows. It's a pretty common technique.

The trope of 'lucifer, isn't who you think he is' is also very popular these days, sometimes actual lucifer.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

My impression is that Sauron had access to Galadriels mind later as a function of the One Ring (and the ring she wore).

The Elves didn't wear their rings while Sauron held the One.  They only "took them up again" (to use Tolkien's words) after the One was lost.

[quarks]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:20 AM, PeterPirate said:

Using that template, to my knowledge the lore the Silmarils has no inconsistencies.  And the show refers to the "last", "lost" Silmaril.  

Well, as we've noted before, technically all three Silmarils are lost - in the sense that they aren't something the Elves own anymore.  And none of the characters involved here - Gil-galad, Elrond, Sauron and whoever wrote this song - would have any way of knowing what order the Silmarils were lost in. Again, it is more than likely - and fitting with the lore - that none of them - including Sauron, who is not 100% all-knowing, in the books, films, or this show - know precisely what happened to the Silmarils.

Regardless, in an interesting twist, the lore of the Silmarils does have inconsistencies!

This is not entirely surprising, given that Tolkien started writing the stories back in 1917 and continued to revise them right up until his death in 1973.  One or two things did remain consistent - the Silmarils were created by Feanor; he made three of them - but other things did not. Indeed, things were so inconsistent that at one point while writing The Hobbit, the stone that Smaug held and the dwarves wanted wasn't the Arkenstone - but a Silmaril. One of three, but still, a Silmaril.  Tolkien wavered on this for some time before finally deciding to pull the Silmarils (and Elwe Thingol) out of The Hobbit, because he was still working on the texts that would eventually become The Quenta Silmarillion.

The big shift, however, came after The Lord of the Rings, when Tolkien realized that the Elves of his revised conception, Elves who had lived with angelic powers who had seen the creation of the universe, would know full well that the Earth went around the Sun, not the other way around, and that the Evening/Morning Star is a planet, not a mariner flying through the skies wearing a Silmaril. Which meant that the stories in the mythos about the Sun, the Moon and at least one Silmaril could not possibly be true - and the Elves knew this. In his very latest texts, Tolkien specified that the Evening Star was not a Silmaril, and that the name "Earendil" had only been assigned to Venus in, well, the same way the name "Venus" was assigned to the planet Venus. 

Tolkien "explained" this by noting that the tales as we have them were filtered to us through mortals - scholars in Numenor, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, other hobbits, the scholars in Gondor who went through the hobbit books and added comments, and Elfwine - who worked with texts originally assembled by Rumil, then edited/added to by Pengolodh. This was all similar to what happened with multiple medieval manuscripts as they were copied over the years, a practice Tolkien was familiar with. The mortals, Tolkien noted, changed/adjusted the tales to fit with their more limited knowledge.

As far as I can tell, the showrunners are....being kinda cagey with this; they've made a couple of references to Earendil as the Evening Star and to the Sun starting out as something that could be held in someone's hand, but....in a cagey kinda way of "they say," with the Evening Star, and letting the whole Sun thing be kinda open to interpretation.

And, of course, they've also had one of the Istari travelling on a meteor.

On 10/20/2022 at 5:20 AM, PeterPirate said:

Those shows didn't throw out anything.  They just wrapped up their fiction by having creative ways to explain the source of the fiction.  Dallas produced threw out a part of their fiction.  

(blinks)

If we are saying that Newhart just wrapped up their fiction by having a creative way to explain the source of the fiction, then Dallas, too, just had a creative way to explain the source of that one season's fiction.

Seriously, it was the identical explanation. The only difference is that Newhart, a sitcom comedy, played the explanation for laughs, and Dallas, an evening soap drama, played it for drama.

St. Elsewhere used a different technique/explanation, but yes, in their final scene, they told viewers that they had not been watching a realistic medical drama for the last six years, as they'd thought, but something else entirely.  One episode of Buffy did something very similar, to get viewers to question what exactly they'd been watching. 

On 10/20/2022 at 5:20 AM, PeterPirate said:

I can't speak to the other shows you mentioned,  But I still hold there is a difference between what we think and what we are shown.  Or, to put it another way, there is a difference between what is inferred and what is definitive.  Whatever twist they might come up with will have to incorporate the power of mithril to heal the leaf from the Great Tree.  That was shown and definitively so.  

And in the end, while it is possible there might be a significant change to the story line in later seasons--and I would be interested in reading others' speculations--I think it best to analyze what we were presented.  

Well, sure. So, without going over the various alternative ways for mithril to get its power, let's look at what we have been shown:

1. Multiple characters failing to tell the truth throughout the show. 

This includes everyone involved with the mithril/ring plotline other than Celebrimbor and the older Durin. Gil-galad starts off being less than forthright with Galadriel, and continues with Elrond. Elrond then lies to Durin about his reasons for coming to Khazad-dum and lies about his physical prowess - as we learn later. Durin initially lies to Elrond, as does Disa, and then Durin lies to Gil-galad about the table.  Galadriel fails to tell Elrond and Celebrimbor about Sauron. Sauron is, well, Sauron.

Not a very trustworthy group there.

2. None of the Elves knowing enough about what is under a mountain, or mining, to be able to challenge Durin on the table story.

3. Sauron absolutely lying to everyone (especially Adar and Galadriel), but often using elements of the truth to persuade people (not exactly successfully with Adar, but successfully with Galadriel and Pharazon.)

4. Any number of remarkably healthy looking Elves - both the speaking parts and the background extras, plus Adar - none of whom are showing a single sign of losing their light.

5. The two Elves not involved in the mithril story (Adar and Arondir) planting something before a battle. 

6. One tree, descended from trees in Valinor, that according to faith/legend loses its leaves when the Valar are upset.

7. Another tree, burned by Mount Doom, restored by one of the Istari.

8. One dying tree in Lindon, surrounded by several other perfectly healthy trees.

9. One dying leaf, notably not healed when Elrond was carrying both it and the nugget of mithril, but restored after the younger Durin tossed the piece of mithril in its direction.

And also, after Elrond told the truth to the Dwarves and accepted their decision.

10. Rings made with mithril - and Galadriel's dagger, which contains metal made in Valinor - that are Rings of Power.

11. One evil sword, apparently made by Sauron (but quite possibly someone else), that has the ability to burst into flame, but does not, as far as we know, have any mithril.

12. Some mystics who are able to do all kinds of things without mithril.

Quite a lot going on here with trees, the Valar, the Maiar, the Elves, and power. Mithril does seem to have some sort of power - Sauron certainly seems quite interested in it. But even leaving aside for now the question of the accuracy of the story, mithril doesn't seem to be sufficient - or, for that matter, necessary.

Suggesting that something else is going on here. 

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, as we've noted before, technically all three Silmarils are lost - in the sense that they aren't something the Elves own anymore.  And none of the characters involved here - Gil-galad, Elrond, Sauron and whoever wrote this song - would have any way of knowing what order the Silmarils were lost in. Again, it is more than likely - and fitting with the lore - that none of them - including Sauron, who is not 100% all-knowing, in the books, films, or this show - know precisely what happened to the Silmarils.

Regardless, in an interesting twist, the lore of the Silmarils does have inconsistencies!

This is not entirely surprising, given that Tolkien started writing the stories back in 1917 and continued to revise them right up until his death in 1973.  One or two things did remain consistent - the Silmarils were created by Feanor; he made three of them - but other things did not. Indeed, things were so inconsistent that at one point while writing The Hobbit, the stone that Smaug held and the dwarves wanted wasn't the Arkenstone - but a Silmaril. One of three, but still, a Silmaril.  Tolkien wavered on this for some time before finally deciding to pull the Silmarils (and Elwe Thingol) out of The Hobbit, because he was still working on the texts that would eventually become The Quenta Silmarillion.

The big shift, however, came after The Lord of the Rings, when Tolkien realized that the Elves of his revised conception, Elves who had lived with angelic powers who had seen the creation of the universe, would know full well that the Earth went around the Sun, not the other way around, and that the Evening/Morning Star is a planet, not a mariner flying through the skies wearing a Silmaril. Which meant that the stories in the mythos about the Sun, the Moon and at least one Silmaril could not possibly be true - and the Elves knew this. In his very latest texts, Tolkien specified that the Evening Star was not a Silmaril, and that the name "Earendil" had only been assigned to Venus in, well, the same way the name "Venus" was assigned to the planet Venus. 

Tolkien "explained" this by noting that the tales as we have them were filtered to us through mortals - scholars in Numenor, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, other hobbits, the scholars in Gondor who went through the hobbit books and added comments, and Elfwine - who worked with texts originally assembled by Rumil, then edited/added to by Pengolodh. This was all similar to what happened with multiple medieval manuscripts as they were copied over the years, a practice Tolkien was familiar with. The mortals, Tolkien noted, changed/adjusted the tales to fit with their more limited knowledge.

As far as I can tell, the showrunners are....being kinda cagey with this; they've made a couple of references to Earendil as the Evening Star and to the Sun starting out as something that could be held in someone's hand, but....in a cagey kinda way of "they say," with the Evening Star, and letting the whole Sun thing be kinda open to interpretation.  

Well, what you call "cagey", I call "a casual and cavalier sense of fidelity to the source material".  

5 hours ago, quarks said:

If we are saying that Newhart just wrapped up their fiction by having a creative way to explain the source of the fiction, then Dallas, too, just had a creative way to explain the source of that one season's fiction.

Seriously, it was the identical explanation. The only difference is that Newhart, a sitcom comedy, played the explanation for laughs, and Dallas, an evening soap drama, played it for drama.

St. Elsewhere used a different technique/explanation, but yes, in their final scene, they told viewers that they had not been watching a realistic medical drama for the last six years, as they'd thought, but something else entirely.  One episode of Buffy did something very similar, to get viewers to question what exactly they'd been watching.  

It depends on the framework used to analyze the shows.

In terms of story line, if people are discussing Dallas they can talk about how "Kristin shot J.R." or any number of other story arcs they found engaging.  But they can't talk about how "Bobby died".  That part of the show was erased and replaced with "Pam dreamed that Bobby died".  Nothing in the endings to Newhart or St. Elsewhere erased what happened during those shows' runs.  People can still talk about the story lines as they wish.  Sure, on a purely intellectual plane one can begin the story of Newhart with "Bob Hartley dreamed...", but nobody is actually going to think that when they are talking about, say, how hilarious Larry, Daryl, and Daryl were.  Just because St. Elsewhere finished up as the dream of a child does not change how I feel about what happened to Mark Harmon's character.  

On the other hand, all three shows do have in common a significant viewer response to their retcons.  So there's that.  

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, sure. So, without going over the various alternative ways for mithril to get its power, let's look at what we have been shown:

1. Multiple characters failing to tell the truth throughout the show. 

This includes everyone involved with the mithril/ring plotline other than Celebrimbor and the older Durin. Gil-galad starts off being less than forthright with Galadriel, and continues with Elrond. Elrond then lies to Durin about his reasons for coming to Khazad-dum and lies about his physical prowess - as we learn later. Durin initially lies to Elrond, as does Disa, and then Durin lies to Gil-galad about the table.  Galadriel fails to tell Elrond and Celebrimbor about Sauron. Sauron is, well, Sauron.

Not a very trustworthy group there.

2. None of the Elves knowing enough about what is under a mountain, or mining, to be able to challenge Durin on the table story.

3. Sauron absolutely lying to everyone (especially Adar and Galadriel), but often using elements of the truth to persuade people (not exactly successfully with Adar, but successfully with Galadriel and Pharazon.)

4. Any number of remarkably healthy looking Elves - both the speaking parts and the background extras, plus Adar - none of whom are showing a single sign of losing their light.

5. The two Elves not involved in the mithril story (Adar and Arondir) planting something before a battle. 

6. One tree, descended from trees in Valinor, that according to faith/legend loses its leaves when the Valar are upset.

7. Another tree, burned by Mount Doom, restored by one of the Istari.

8. One dying tree in Lindon, surrounded by several other perfectly healthy trees.

9. One dying leaf, notably not healed when Elrond was carrying both it and the nugget of mithril, but restored after the younger Durin tossed the piece of mithril in its direction.

And also, after Elrond told the truth to the Dwarves and accepted their decision.

10. Rings made with mithril - and Galadriel's dagger, which contains metal made in Valinor - that are Rings of Power.

11. One evil sword, apparently made by Sauron (but quite possibly someone else), that has the ability to burst into flame, but does not, as far as we know, have any mithril.

12. Some mystics who are able to do all kinds of things without mithril.

Quite a lot going on here with trees, the Valar, the Maiar, the Elves, and power. Mithril does seem to have some sort of power - Sauron certainly seems quite interested in it. But even leaving aside for now the question of the accuracy of the story, mithril doesn't seem to be sufficient - or, for that matter, necessary.

Suggesting that something else is going on here. 

Many people have pointed out the legion of logical fallacies and inconsistencies in the show.  That doesn't mean the rings-of-power-get-their-power-from-mithril-which-gets-its-power-from-a-Silmaril story line is going to be erased.  And if the story line is to be erased, it will have to be replaced with something else.  Without proposed alternate story lines that incorporate what we have been shown thus far to consider, the show should be analyzed on the presumption that the current story line is going to stand over time.  Or, at the very least, the show should be analyzed on the presumption that the current story line might stand over time. 

Frankly, I don't see why all that effort was necessary to theorize Payne and McKay plan to change things up.  For my money it is sufficient to say "Almost everyone survived a pyroclastic flow" to explain how casually and cavalierly they take consistency in their work.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by PeterPirate