The Books, The Movies, The Show: Compare And Contrast

[PeterPirate]

Disparu reacts to the showrunners' podcast.  

At one point Payne and McKay suggest that what we see on the screen is not what happens, but is only an interpretation of what happens in the eyes of one of the characters in the screen.  The only thing Halbrand did that was definitive was throw the crest on the table and then pick it up.  

So maybe the mithril did not heal the leaf.  Durin only thought that's what happened.  

Quite a different way to have to watch a TV show, I must say.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The showrunners' podcast.  

I haven't listened to it yet, but maybe this is one of those shows where listening to the showrunners' thoughts is actually not a good idea.  🤨

[PeterPirate]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:42 PM, Camera One said:

I haven't listened to it yet, but maybe this is one of those shows where listening to the showrunners' thoughts is actually not a good idea.  🤨

Yeah.  I'm glad there are people out there who are willing to listen to them for us.  Disparu is a very sharp guy and I'm glad he's used that to make a successful channel.  

He also agrees with me about Galadriel's lack of agency.  That's why I put the video here instead of the Media thread.  

Edited October 29, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Camera One]

From article: 

Quote

In the show, the Elven rings are made first, not last as they are in Tolkien's legendarium. Now, writer Gennifer Hutchison has explained why the change was necessary.

"So much of the season was about the Elves and their journey, and Galadriel’s journey, and the fading [of Eregion]," she recently told Inverse(opens in new tab). "So, we wanted to tie those rings into that story. It was about narrowing our focus down on them and having those rings cap off the season. Because we had to make rings. It felt like the climax of that arc, as opposed to trying to manage the timeline in a different way."

I really didn't get the sense that "so much of the season" was about the Elves.  The realm of the Elves was hardly explored except they had one dying tree.  

I just didn't find this explanation very satisfactory. 

[Camera One]

If they wanted the rings being forged to "cap off" the end of Season 1, why didn't they just tweak the sequence of what happened?  They could have Halbrand giving the smiths of Eregion/Celebrimbor the idea to forge a bunch of rings with a single drop of mithril in each.  For this, it would have been ideal if they changed the pacing of the whole season and have Halbrand arriving in Eregion one episode earlier to provide a bit more time for him to gain the trust of Celebrimbor.

After that, Galadriel deduce his identity and can confront Halbrand/Sauron, who leaves. 

Then, Galadriel actually tells Elrond and Celebrimbor that Halbrand = Sauron, and that's when they create the 3 rings in secret with the rest of Elrond's mithril sample (which Halbrand did not see, so he assumed they used up all the mithril already). 

Then at the end of Season 2, Halbrand/Sauron attacks the Dwarves to get mithril (if they must do this mithril plot), and then forges the One Ring at Mount Doom.  Then in Season 2 or 3, he can attack Eregion to steal the lesser rings and distribute.

That would have kept a bit more of the books while not changing what the show writers seem to want to do.  Unless the entirety of Season 2 relies on Galadriel keeping everything secret from Elrond and Celebrimbor.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Camera One

[SueB]

I started watching The Rings is Power but couldn’t give it my full attention so I just finished my binge watch of S1.  It was spectacular.  
 

My POV on ‘canon’ for ‘The Rings of Power’: this series is ‘canon consistent’ but not always ‘canon compliant.’  I’m cool with it. 
Canon compliant is frankly difficult to achieve for any story-teller.  It depends on the import of the canon details.  Example: We never even saw Glorfindel in Jackson’s trilogy, he gave the chase to the ford to Arwen.  An Alternate Universe is where Aragon marries Eowyn (for example). This series is not an AU IMO. 
 

Elements I loved:

- S1 did a good job of of making Sauron sympathetic til he was revealed.  I did not suspect until he was talking with Celebrimbor about how to make the rings of power. THEN, and only then, was I suspicious.  And I like Galadriel’s culpability.  
- How Mordor was made.  (Caveat: Mt Doom is not geologically correct - but then the world starting out flat is also a stretch). Loved the toxic fume and ash pouring out as a logical backstory.  
- Gandalf being first found by Halflings. 
- Foretelling of Numenor’s destruction.  Epic. 
- Durin & Disa and Elrond’s friendship.  It shows Elrond was always more I don’t care there are no beards. 
 

Liked:

- Galadriel starting off not so wise.  She’s got a long journey ahead to being the regal queen.  
- Creation of Arondil/Browyn/Theo and the family they form.  I enjoyed the noticeable difference between Silven and Nordor Elves.
- Muriel turning into a wise leader.  
 

Dislikes:

- Isildur is a brat.  Realistic, but a brat none-the- less
- Gil-Galad being so sketchy.  His ego is a good issue to explore but his motives too vague. 
-   Meeting of Galadriel and Halbeand at sea. Seems to too convenient 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I started watching The Rings is Power but couldn’t give it my full attention so I just finished my binge watch of S1.  It was spectacular. 

Meeting of Galadriel and Halbeand at sea. Seems to too convenient 

There's a few suspicious coincidences all through Tolkien lore. Gollum losing the ring just in time for Bilbo to find it? Surely that's a big one. :)

[Camera One]

It can still be later revealed in later seasons that Halbrand's meeting with Galadriel at sea was not a true coincidence.

I do think though, that when you are writing a prequel, coincidences need to be put under a microscope more than "coincidences" in the original story. 

If nothing coincidental happened in stories, there would often be no interesting premise to build upon.  Why did Dorothy's house happen to land on the Wicked Witch of the East?  Heck, why was her house the one that got lifted up by the tornado.   Well, it did, and that's what made the story interesting.   If Gollum lost his ring, someone else could have conceivably found it, especially if The Ring wants to be found.  It just so happened that in this story, it turned out to be Bilbo.

On the other hand, if you are making characters meet when they didn't in the original, it better be under believable circumstances, and it better make sense given the later canonical events and characterization.

[PeterPirate]

In the chapter Shadow of the Past in FOTR, Gandalf is explicit about how the One Ring "abandoned" Gollum in an attempt to re-unite with its master.  He goes on to say that another power was at work which caused it to be picked up by Bilbo Baggins.  

Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.

I fully expect that next season we will see Sauron use his powers to maneuver his way into meeting with Galadriel.  And probably the encounter with Elendil's ship as well.  

[Anduin]

You can certainly get away with one or two, I feel. If they propel the plot. You need something to kickstart the action. But unless you're actively going for a chain of coincidences or the hand of god, it's best to leave it as one or two.

[SueB]

I’m pretty sure ‘Halbrand’ and Galadriel both remarked on the momentous nature of their first meeting.  Both had a sense of destiny in their remarks.  
 

I just am struggling with Sauron getting on a boat in the first place. 

[Anduin]

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

I’m pretty sure ‘Halbrand’ and Galadriel both remarked on the momentous nature of their first meeting.  Both had a sense of destiny in their remarks.  
 

I just am struggling with Sauron getting on a boat in the first place. 

He can't fly. Yeah, he could ride or hike overland, but he chose to sail instead. My best guess, he was sailing from one place to another when a sea monster attacked.

Of course, given my track record of predictions, he may well have fallen out of the sky onto the ship or caused the sea monster to attack. I dunno. :)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Anduin

[PeterPirate]

It's not unfathomable to think Sauron was in control of the sea monster.  In Appendix A it is revealed that Gandalf helped Thorin and his company take back Erebor because Sauron might use the Dragon "with terrible effect".

Edited December 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[akiss]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

It's not unfathomable to think Sauron was in control of the sea monster.  In Appendix A it is revealed that Gandalf helped Thorin and his company to take back Erebor because Sauron might use the Dragon "with terrible effect".

This is what I think, as well. I think their meeting was a coincidence but the sea monster attacking was not.

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Anduin said:

Of course, given my track record of predictions, he may well have fallen out of the sky onto the ship or caused the sea monster to attack. I dunno. :)

In modern showrunner mindset, just pick what you think viewers would be least likely to expect.

Aka Sauron put a mithril-infused homing device on Galadriel's dagger and it sent him a message just as the mean, mean Valar rejected him causing his inner demons to manifest as a sea monster while his humanity manifested as Halbrand and that's why the sea monster was hunting Halbrand in a metaphorical battle of wills when Galadriel showed up and tipped in favor of Humanity Halbrand over Sinful Sea Serpent aka Sauron. 

We will soon see Halbrand acting like Gollum talking to himself as his inner battle continues to rage on!  Now you know why there was the Gollum/Smeagol split because this facet of Sauron was cast into the One Ring after Galadriel rejected him for the last time (watch for this in the final 5 minutes of Season 2 right after Nori teaches Gandalf how to read).

Edited December 28, 2022 by Camera One

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, Anduin said:

He can't fly. Yeah, he could ride or hike overland, but he chose to sail instead. My best guess, he was sailing from one place to another when a sea monster attacked.

Of course, given my track record of predictions, he may well have fallen out of the sky onto the ship or caused the sea monster to attack. I dunno. :)

He needed to learn Gandalf’s nifty trick of travel by meteorite.

I received The Fall of Numenor for Christmas. It will be interesting to see how much it influenced the show. 

[Anduin]

25 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I received The Fall of Numenor for Christmas. It will be interesting to see how much it influenced the show. 

Me too! And I suspect not at all. The writers didn't have access to last years book, the Nature of Middle-earth. I think it's the same go here.

[BookEater]

I loved this so I thought I'd share it here. John Rhys-Davies recites the Song of Durin. 

 

[quarks]

I'm genuinely fascinated by the approach to Tolkien's lore in this second season.

Because on the one hand, the show is still, shall we say, tinkering with things, while at the same time making multiple references to lore that it technically doesn't have the rights to. So we have Gil-galad still insisting that the elves can just, you know, return to Valinor without, say, checking with the Valar first, the one thing from the first season that I thought was a huge change not just from the mythos, but from Tolkien's entire concept of mercy and grace. And then, just as this is going on, we have Elrond divebombing off the cliffs just as his mother, Elwing did. Sure, that could have been just a coincidence - diving off cliffs is kinda dramatic - but this was later followed by that boat rocking Cirdan at just the right moment - a probable reference not just to the role of water in The Lord of the Rings, but also, I think, intended as a visual reference to either Ulmo or Osse.

Over in Rhun, we have Tom Bombadil quoting The Fellowship of the Ring pretty much word for word, but also apparently serving as some sort of wizard trainer - not remotely his role anywhere in Tolkien. It's not bad and I'm not against it, but it's another major mix of lore and lore defiance. 

Other cases, like the Entwives, are more arguable - it's not exactly clear WHEN the Entwives left the Ents, but it could have happened at the end of the Second Age or the beginning of the Third Age. So we can - probably - let this one go. Probably. After all, we don't really know how old Treebeard is, and he seems to think - and a conversation early in The Fellowship of the Ring seems to confirm - that it's at least possible that the Entwives are still around somewhere in the Shire, and the Shire wasn't settled until the Third Age.

And then we have the end of episode four, which proves that the person doing the Quenya translations, at least, has read the full History of Middle Earth series and in particular, the Shibboleth of Feanor, which requires major dedication to the Tolkien lore -

In a line spoken by an Elf who has apparently decided to, you know, just keep hanging out with his Orc descendants, something that is not exactly in the lore.

Fascinating.

[Affogato]

I think as a child, when I read the books, I always thought the lands in the West were just that, an actual place. 

It seems hard that we saw the race of elves go extinct at the beginning of the fourth age. I guess, that is what happens. Which makes Gil-Galad sending the Elves on that boat somewhat like forcing poisoned Koolade on them for political reasons. Death with the promise of heaven. 

[Anduin]

18 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think as a child, when I read the books, I always thought the lands in the West were just that, an actual place. 

It seems hard that we saw the race of elves go extinct at the beginning of the fourth age. I guess, that is what happens. Which makes Gil-Galad sending the Elves on that boat somewhat like forcing poisoned Koolade on them for political reasons. Death with the promise of heaven. 

No, Valinor is there. At this point, you can sail there. Be welcome, not so much. When Pharazon and his posse go west, the valar are so pissed off that they bend the world into a sphere. Then you need to find the straight road to get there. Galadriel being sent west was more like going to heaven without dying first, or perhaps the ultimate kicked upstairs.

[Affogato]

I think my impression of theology has not improved with age. Are they living in the Americas, do you suppose? When people need more room do they go to other planets like in that CS Lewis series where Venus is Eden? Middle earth is moving towards monotheism. So eventually, maybe, Jesus will be born and all of the rest will need to move on , all the other peoples.

I don’t think Galadriel would have been happy in heaven. Maybe something she shares with Sauron. Diminish and go to the West…..maybe she never is fully onboard with heaven. 
 

i’ll stop now. 
 

 

Edited September 8 by Affogato

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think as a child, when I read the books, I always thought the lands in the West were just that, an actual place. 

It seems hard that we saw the race of elves go extinct at the beginning of the fourth age. I guess, that is what happens. Which makes Gil-Galad sending the Elves on that boat somewhat like forcing poisoned Koolade on them for political reasons. Death with the promise of heaven. 

It's a real place. During the First and Second Ages, it's a real place on our planet. Tolkien kinda wavered on exactly where it as - in some early drafts, he identified Tol Eressea, which is off the shores of Valinor, with the physical country of England.

He later abandoned this idea after realizing that it didn't quite work with his frame story, and placed Valinor more or less in the area of North American/Greenland - with the general idea that, during the First and Second Ages, the Pacific Ocean was much narrower and the Americas were closer to Asia, though he never worked out the specifics. The idea was that during the First Age, people could take boats back and forth from Valinor to Middle-Earth, although they didn't do that very often, or they could even walk across the polar regions from Valinor to Middle-Earth, which a group of Noldor Elves did exactly once and never again.

During the Second Age, boats did sail back and forth between Tol Eressea/Avallone to Numenor - though mortals couldn't sail to to Tol Eressea/Avallone or step on that island. They could just look at it. Boats from Numenor then sailed back and forth to Middle-Earth. Not on a daily basis or anything, but it did happen. For whatever reason Rings of Power is choosing to leave out the whole bit about the Teleri Elves sailing to Numenor with their swan ships, even though that kinda ties in to a concept that they are working with - the Palantir.

(The Seven Stones that Elendil saved and brought to Middle-Earth were connected to an eighth stone in Avallone, allowing a certain degree of communication between Numenor and Tol Eressea. In the Third Age of Middle-Earth, the Elves sometimes used one of the palantir to communicate with their kin and friends in Tol Eressea.)

In the Second Age, the Valar realized that letting mortals glimpse Tol Eressea and Valinor but not actually get there was maybe not working out all that well, so they separated Valinor and Tol Eressea from the rest of the planet. After that, the trip to Tol Eressea was one way only, and could for the most part only be done by Elves - with the exceptions of Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Gimli and Eriol. And those exceptions apparently never went to Valinor: they just visited/rested/stayed with the Elves on Tol Eressea.

But it was still a very real place.

In terms of the Elves going extinct - yes and no.  Many of them did leave Middle-Earth - but not all of them. The ones who refused to go to Valinor are still in Middle-Earth (technically here). It's just that, over the millennia, their bodies (hroa) have burned out and faded, so at this point, most of them are basically just unhoused spirits, so mortals (we humans) pretty much can't see them, unless, like Eriol, we get on a ship, head into the Atlantic, get thoroughly lost, and then end up on Tol Eressea - but that's not something that happens all that often.

[Haleth]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

placed Valinor more or less in the area of North American

Guess Tol Eressëa = Long Island. 🤣

When I first read the Sil as a kid and came across the alternate name for Tol Eressëa being Avallonë (and Numenor = Atalanta) my jaw dropped. 

Edited September 8 by Haleth

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

It's a real place. During the First and Second Ages, it's a real place on our planet. Tolkien kinda wavered on exactly where it as - in some early drafts, he identified Tol Eressea, which is off the shores of Valinor, with the physical country of England.

He later abandoned this idea after realizing that it didn't quite work with his frame story, and placed Valinor more or less in the area of North American/Greenland - with the general idea that, during the First and Second Ages, the Pacific Ocean was much narrower and the Americas were closer to Asia, though he never worked out the specifics. The idea was that during the First Age, people could take boats back and forth from Valinor to Middle-Earth, although they didn't do that very often, or they could even walk across the polar regions from Valinor to Middle-Earth, which a group of Noldor Elves did exactly once and never again.

During the Second Age, boats did sail back and forth between Tol Eressea/Avallone to Numenor - though mortals couldn't sail to to Tol Eressea/Avallone or step on that island. They could just look at it. Boats from Numenor then sailed back and forth to Middle-Earth. Not on a daily basis or anything, but it did happen. For whatever reason Rings of Power is choosing to leave out the whole bit about the Teleri Elves sailing to Numenor with their swan ships, even though that kinda ties in to a concept that they are working with - the Palantir.

(The Seven Stones that Elendil saved and brought to Middle-Earth were connected to an eighth stone in Avallone, allowing a certain degree of communication between Numenor and Tol Eressea. In the Third Age of Middle-Earth, the Elves sometimes used one of the palantir to communicate with their kin and friends in Tol Eressea.)

In the Second Age, the Valar realized that letting mortals glimpse Tol Eressea and Valinor but not actually get there was maybe not working out all that well, so they separated Valinor and Tol Eressea from the rest of the planet. After that, the trip to Tol Eressea was one way only, and could for the most part only be done by Elves - with the exceptions of Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Gimli and Eriol. And those exceptions apparently never went to Valinor: they just visited/rested/stayed with the Elves on Tol Eressea.

But it was still a very real place.

In terms of the Elves going extinct - yes and no.  Many of them did leave Middle-Earth - but not all of them. The ones who refused to go to Valinor are still in Middle-Earth (technically here). It's just that, over the millennia, their bodies (hroa) have burned out and faded, so at this point, most of them are basically just unhoused spirits, so mortals (we humans) pretty much can't see them, unless, like Eriol, we get on a ship, head into the Atlantic, get thoroughly lost, and then end up on Tol Eressea - but that's not something that happens all that often.

Thanks. Still confused, but that is okay. I’ve been confused before. I still am not sure how middle earth becomes us or why the Valar are so elf forward, stuff, but thanks. That makes things clearer. 

9 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Guess Tol Eressëa = Long Island. 🤣

When I first read the Sil as a kid and came across the alternate name for Tol Eressëa being Avallonë my jaw dropped. (Not sure I’m using the right diacritic marks but they are fun.) 

Yeah. I kind of picture it as  Ireland and iceland? Or is iceland numenor? Not really a full correspondence for any of them. But bits I suppose sneak into our stories.  

[quarks]

43 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Thanks. Still confused, but that is okay. I’ve been confused before. I still am not sure how middle earth becomes us or why the Valar are so elf forward, stuff, but thanks. That makes things clearer. 

The show is pretty much skipping over this, but not all of the Valar are all that enthusiastic about bringing all of the Elves over to Valinor or Tol Eressea, for various reasons - even the ones who are particularly interested in saving/preserving the Elves, like Ulmo. Many of them, like, again, Ulmo, think that the Elves should stay in Middle-Earth. 

We may have seen a bit of this in the first episode - yes, I think that was partly Ulmo or Osse saying, hey, these rings are YOUR problem, not OURS, but I also think that might have been Ulmo or Osse believing that the Elves should remain in Middle-Earth - in a slight nod to this disagreement among the Valar. 

That goes back, incidentally, to my one real issue with this show: Gil-galad's ongoing "I get to decide who gets to sail to Valinor and when." He doesn't. That's both an individual choice (the Elf has to want to go to Valinor, and for various reasons not all of them do) and the choice of the Valar. At this point, Galadriel is not allowed to return to Valinor or visit Tol Eressea, even though she has family there, regardless of what she does or doesn't want, and regardless of which version of her history we're going with (Tolkien kept changing it.)

Regardless, when Elves are physically killed (as opposed to just having their bodies slowly fade away), their spirits usually do go to Valinor, so it's possible that one reason why Manwe and Varda are so YAY ELVES COME OVER AND PARTY WITH US is that they figure the Elves are going to end up there anyway so why not live in joy?

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Yeah. I kind of picture it as  Ireland and iceland? Or is iceland numenor? Not really a full correspondence for any of them. But bits I suppose sneak into our stories.  

Tolkien was at least partly inspired by various legends of saints and princes and other explorers who headed out to the Atlantic and claimed to have landed on various islands. It's at least possible that one of these islands was Iceland.  Or the Faroe Islands. Or Greenland. Or Nova Scotia. Or Long Island.  I don't think that anyone knows for sure. At least one of these legendary explorers, St. Brandon the Navigator, was apparently born in Ireland, though, so in his case, at least, Ireland isn't the mysterious island he traveled to. But it might have been one of the islands the other legendary explorers visited. Maybe. As you say, not an exact correspondence, but bits and pieces probably sneaked in.

[quarks]

Book nitpicks from season 2, episode 5:

1.  Remember back in the first season, when the Elves of the Southlands apparently had never heard about Tuor and Idril? And yet, in this last episode, Sauron just nonchalantly name drops Tuor?

And it's not so much that Sauron knows most of the major human heroes of the First Age - after all, he met a couple of them in person - but he expected the Eregion Elves to know those names as well, and yet for whatever reason, the Southland Elves apparently....didn't.

2. Speaking of those names, though, I appreciated the Beren name drop, kinda, but given just how many other names Sauron could have used there, I can't help but feel he would have used pretty much any other name than Beren.

3. Also while I'm discussing this little speech, Tuor is mentioned in the Appendices, and I believe Turin gets a mention in the main book, but I'm mildly surprised that they got Hurin in there.

4. I did love that moment when Pharazon mentioned Avallone. It's about time that the show clarified that the Numenoreans do have a genuine reason for resentment here - they can sometimes see the island just off the coast of Valinor, and speak to Elves who travel back and forth from Valinor, but they can't get there themselves.