Book 8: Written in My Own Heart’s Blood

[thingamajig]

One more thing: is it just me, or is anyone else getting a little tired of Lord John? I just don't find him that interesting, and he seems to have so many scenes...

Same here.  I just downloaded The Scottish Prisoner from the library a couple days ago..as soon as I got to the first chapter that was about Lord John and his brother I literally almost fell asleep trying to get through it.  I think I'm going to end up skimming everything that doesn't have Jamie in it.  Also, while reading Book 8 I was totally lost on a lot of Lord John's backstory because either it came from his own books or I just hadn't cared enough to retain it from previous Outlander books.

[nodorothyparker]

All of his stuff with Wainwright/Beauchamp is from the Lord John books.  And Jamie's only in two of those books, I think, or that's all that I remember.  I can only read so much about depressed downtrodden Jamie from the Helwater years anyway.

 

The Lord John books tend to run to the dry English drawing room kind of humor, which can be fun, but it all blends together after awhile for me.

[thingamajig]

  I can only read so much about depressed downtrodden Jamie from the Helwater years anyway.

 

YES.  That's all so depressing.

[WatchrTina]

Well tonight's episode (108, "Both Sides Now") clarified something for me in MOBY.  Jamie's determination to hunt down and kill the guy who raped Claire really resonates now that I have been reminded of his failure to protect her only days after their wedding.  She isn't raped in Book 1 but the fact that she has to save herself (at least the first time) is probably something that has eaten at him for over 20 years. It helps explain his reaction in MOBY when he learns one of the gang-rapists escaped his vengeance the first time around.

[MedievalGirl]

I finally started reading this. I am finding that I kind of like William now. I don't know if it is because I had a kid I happened to name William since Echo or because he's less insufferable now that he knows about Jamie. 

[peacefrog]

One thing I picked up in reading again is Bree does give thought about traveling between stones as well as time. I wonder if this is how the family does it from 1739 Scotland to 1780whatever America? Did they risk it over a sea voyage or an extra trip through the stones? They knew exactly where and when Jamie and Claire were in order to focus on them. She also discusses it with Joe.

Part of me though would love it if they made the extra trip through the stones to the 1930's and visited with Frank.

[lianau]

.

 

 

 

 

John does know something evil of the sort happened to Jamie, but he's not sure to what extent, or by whom.  He realizes it after a heated conversation with Jamie in one of the Lord John books;

I believe it may be The Scottish Prisoner.

 

 

 

 I've actually come to really like William as a character, and enjoyed his (mis)adventures in this story.  I can't wait to see his and Jamie's relationship progress in the final book(s).  I like that he now suspects that Jamie is indeed an honorable man, and that being a 'traitor/outlaw' isn't a black and white situation.  Sure, he can be a hotheaded, immature douche, but I think he's growing as a character.  He's just so British about everything.  I think his character really illustrates the difference in the mindset between the English and the Rebels/Colonists/Americans.

 

The Scottish Prisoner is the John Jamie friendship rebuilding after  the Brotherhood of the Blade  fallout.

 

Sounds like Jamie , except he had the immaturity flogged out of him by Jack Randall. William is a pampered only child who just had the rug of his existence pulled from under him .And everyone has lied to him . I'd be pissed too.

 

 

 

Part of me though would love it if they made the extra trip through the stones to the 1930's and visited with Frank.

But is that possible ? In one of books Roger thinks about his first stone travel and that it almost killed him because he was thinking of his father the way he knew him   and crossing his own lifeline (nobody can be in two  places at the same time ). To meet Frank they have to travel to a time before Roger's birth and Bree has to forget about her father Frank

[CatMack]

Just finished this book.  Am all caught up now (on the main series at least).

 

I don't know what to do with my free time any more.

 

OK, first, I've been reading the title as Written in My Heart's Own Blood literally since I started reading this series until I was about halfway through the book and realized it was Written in My Own Heart's Blood.  So that made me feel smart.

 

But yeah, wow, this book man.  I really really liked this.  It's funny, because after 5 and 6 I was really ready for them to leave the Ridge because I just felt like things had become too static.  But I was practically crying with happiness when they got to go home.  I'm fickle, I guess.  I'm not sure what the best balance is.  If stuff takes place too much on the Ridge it feels cut off from everything else, but dammit I want Claire and Jamie to be happy.

 

I was on the edge of my seat for the Bree/Roger stuff in this book.  I kind of feel like that has to come back up in the next book (or later books, if the next one isn't the last).  If it had just been Rob...but we have a whole gang who's identity we don't know.  It definitely smells like a conspiracy like Frank warned about in his letter, and I feel like it's too big of a dangling plot thread to just disappear.  Whether Rob himself can travel or not, I do think we'll eventually see at least some of that group show up in the past. 

 

I liked William's chapters so much more in this book.  I liked William last book, I just didn't care about his chapter because it was so separate from anyone else most of the time.  When he was with Bree or Ian, etc, I was all for it.  So this book, now that he knew the truth, even if he wasn't physically with any of the other characters he was thinking about them a lot and that made him feel more integrated into the main story that I actually care about.  And yeah, he's a bit whiny, but I get it.  I mean, I'm not so far removed from his age group that I don't remember what it was like to deal with that part of my life without a major paternity bomb during a time period where paternity mattered so much (yeah, legally he'd still be the earl if that got out, but socially people would give him so much shit for it).  There were a couple times where I wanted to smack him hard (arresting Ian) but for the most part I understood and thought he outwardly conducted himself fairly well given the inner turmoil he was going through.  I really want him to meet Brianna again now, I think she's the one person that can even come close to understanding what he's going through right now, and it would be good for him.  I don't see him ever settling down on the Ridge as part of the permanent family group, but I really hope he eventually gets to spend some time there and gets to be on good terms with the family.  I don't think he and Jamie can ever really be father and son the way William and Lord John are (John is the one who raised him and that's a bond that can't be replicated) but I think they could, eventually, down the line, after the Revolution maybe, come to a place where William can accept that Jamie does love him and doesn't flinch from it and maybe he might start to care about Jamie too even if it's not a traditional parental bond. 

 

I just have a lot of Jamie and William feelings, apparently. 

 

And finally, I could handle the dog, but Henri-Christian?  That's some GRRM levels of fucked up, Diana Gabaldon.

[Petunia846]

Yes, this is where I really came to like William in this book. I can't wait to see him show up randomly on the ridge in a future book. I had also never cared for the "modern" time storylines until this book. Things got really interesting, and I loved it so much. I could not stop reading during those chapters and I literally cried out in shock at so many points...it was awesome. I never do that. This book felt really strong to me. Almost everything was really tight and the plot moved and characters moved. It was great.

[lianau]

Something I just thought about . Will Jenny recognize/remember Roger ? She 's seen him when he showed up at Lallybroch looking for Jemmy and with his neck scar and looking pretty much the same as he does now .

[mybabyaidan]

The part I hated?  The 10 second reunion of Roger and his dad.  Seemed really really really stupid and pointless.   Same as little Henri's death. 

 

 

And great point lianau.  That is the aspect of time travel that makes my head hurt. 

[Petunia846]

I'm looking forward to finding out, lianau. I certainly hope it gets addressed. It was be nice if Roger shared that story with Jamie. Would be nice for Jamie to have a little more story about his father to hold on to.

[WatchrTina]

 

The part I hated?  The 10 second reunion of Roger and his dad.  Seemed really really really stupid and pointless.

That scene will break your heart if you've already read the novella that tells the story from the point of view of Roger's father.  I won't say more because, spoilers.  But for me that scene was not pointless, it resonated deeply.

[bluebonnet]

Which novella was that, WatchrTina? I haven't been able to get into any of the side stories yet, but the only ones I've come across are John Grey ones.  He's great but it's hard for me to be in his head so much.  I think I would like one from the POV of Roger's father.  

[auntlada]

A Leaf on the Wind of All Hallows. It may be available for Kindle only. I'm not sure.

Edited November 9, 2014 by auntlada

[mybabyaidan]

I haven't read the novella, I didn't even know there was one.  I might feel differently after reading it if I do decide to, but I still feel like the whole Roger's dad thing was thrown in there and not really explored like it should have been.  It just seemed like a waste to me that he only got to spend like 10 seconds with him and than just shoved him back through the stones.  It seemed pointless to me to bring up a huge plot point like that and having it over in the blink of an eye.  JMO but I didn't like it.,

[MedievalGirl]

I finally finished this. As I got toward the end I slowed down my reading to savor what was left. I liked that this book seemed tighter than the last couple. There were meanderings but we got back to the main arc eventually and it was still there. 
I like the medical stuff especially dental and gynecological procedures. The fistula was important because I hope some readers have a more concrete idea of what happens with a girl when they hear about child brides and the trafficking of young women. 

As I mentioned earlier I liked William and he came into focus for me. I was so very sad for him at the end. 
I'll just make a list

Jamie POV description of Clair after she was shot. We known all too well what is going on inside her head but we rarely get a description of what she looks like.

Claire, Dottie, and Rachel discussing wedding nights. lol
Claire breathing in the scent of the Ridge. 

There is more but my little monkeys are distracting me. 
 

[lianau]

I like William too . I really never get it why some call him a brat  (same with Brianna). He's a young man trying to prove to himself and others that he's more than just a title, only to have said title sort of ripped away leaving him with no identity at all . And he has nobody to talk to because they either lied to him about his parentage or they are not allowed to know because he'd really lose everything .

[auntlada]

I like the medical stuff especially dental and gynecological procedures. The fistula was important because I hope some readers have a more concrete idea of what happens with a girl when they hear about child brides and the trafficking of young women.

 

I'm not sure I enjoyed reading that bit, but I was interested in knowing it and understanding fistulas better. I've read about them in the last few years, although I can't remember exactly where. I think it was someone nearby who was doing work or raising money or something to help women in eastern Africa, but I've never read a description of the problem that explained it quite as well as this book did.

[lianau]

What do you all want to see happening in the next book ?

[Kiwi]

I'm done! There were times I thought I might not ever finish before April 4th, I'm looking at you Fiery Cross, but I made it. And now that I'm here I feel sad, how did you all wait for years between books?!

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. William grew on me, especially when he interacted with Claire, Jamie and Ian. I could have done without Jane but it was nice when he came to Jamie for help with her and he obliged, it let William see a side of Jamie he'd not seen before.

Lord John Grey I liked more than in previous books, his family however I could have done without. I'm not looking forward to more of the endless search for Ben.

Oh and I really like Denny. It's nice Claire has someone who appreciates her medical prowess in the way he does.

A few of you mentioned you don't particularly enjoy the battle scenes, I don't mind them. Not being American there is very little I know about the revolution, so for me it is quite fascinating. Although I admit I'm still somewhat confused at how the whole thing started, and occasionally I have to go to Wikipedia to clear things up. I did know that Washington had bad dental hygiene, but have no idea why I know that.

Rogers story took me by complete surprise, when Brian Fraser opened the door it was a shock. What a great twist. Him meeting his dad felt rushed and surplus to the story, but it was nice to see Dougal again. Geillis interactions with Buck were just disturbing, ew. The 20th century story was great overall, but I'd be glad not to see Rob Cameron again.

My hope is the next book picks up where this one left of, I want to read that reunion, although maybe it will start with how the MacKenzies came to the Ridge.

Seven months that took me to read the whole series, glad the shows back soon, I won't know what to do with all my spare time otherwise.

[Petunia846]

The ending of this book always makes me cry...Claire and Jamie having their quiet time at the new house, their curiosity about the people coming up the ridge, and then that realization. Damn it, it's doing it to me now. I too hope there's a bit of good, mushy reunion time at the beginning of the next book.

Judging by the daily lines Diana's putting out, they do at least spend quite a bit of time all together on the ridge.

 

The 20th century story in this book and then Roger's wacky time travel adventures were some of my favorite stuff from the later books. There were some really good twists that I never saw coming, like the Brian Fraser stuff or just Buck showing up in the 20th century. The history stuff is fun, but I also really like all the crazy time travel stuff.

 

Have you read any of the other novels or short stories yet? There's one that deals more with Roger and his father, which is probably why it's a bit rushed in the book.

[WatchrTina]

 

Geillis interactions with Buck were just disturbing, ew. The 20th century story was great overall, but I'd be glad not to see Rob Cameron again.

 

Amen to  both of those.  

 

I really don't want any of those 20th-century losers showing up on Fraser's Ridge though I might enjoy seeing what Jamie did to them if they did show up.  The thing is . . . the gold that the "Spanish gentleman" is guarding seems too big a plot motivator for Diana to just let it go. Someone is going to come hunting it and that gang from the 20th century seems the most likely candidates (though I never really bought the idea that Rob Cameron could figure out the coded message in the letter that easily).  Arch Bug knew about it and was stalking Ian (mostly for revenge but also to find out where the gold was) but he's dead now  Those two girls who go about in boy's clothes heard a hint of it and Claire ran into them at the Trading Post so they might stir up trouble over it. If so, the threat may be more local.  But I am afraid one of those 20th century goons is going to turn out to be a time-raveler and is going to come looking for it.  I really hope not though.  If it happens, it really will feel like a recycling of the Geillis I-can-change-the-past misguided Scottish patriot story.

 

As for Geillis and Buck.  Yeah.  Ew.  I still don't trust Buck.  That man's psyche is a bit . . . damaged.  I'm glad there was only one adult man in the little group that Claire and Jamie see walking towards the house.

[Kiwi]

Have you read any of the other novels or short stories yet? There's one that deals more with Roger and his father, which is probably why it's a bit rushed in the book.

No I haven't. The only ones I've seen around here are the Lord John books and I'm not sure I like him enough to read a whole book about him. I've not even heard of these novellas before, maybe I can find them online...

[Petunia846]

Yeah, search Amazon for Diana and you'll find them. I think they're digital only and they'll be like $1.99. I think there are like three or four of them. The one with Roger's dad is, "A Leaf On the Wind of All Hallows."

[Athena]

Have you read any of the other novels or short stories yet? There's one that deals more with Roger and his father, which is probably why it's a bit rushed in the book.

 

I've read The Scottish Prisoner. It's not bad and Jamie is in it. It gives more dimensions to their already complicated friendship. I'm tempted to read the other Lord John books. I like the character, but I don't love him. I also have way too many other books to read.

[Petunia846]

I read all of them, because I just kind of felt like I wanted to, and I would say that if you're not a Lord John fan, there's no need to read his other stuff. I didn't really enjoy them other than just for the amusing way Diana can turn a phrase. You can get a bit of an introduction into John's family, though honestly not really that much, and the first one includes the back story of that guy who was around asking about Fergus, but other than that it's just John's love life, personal thoughts, and a lot of military stuff (which is yet another thing that mostly bores me).

 

If anything I'd read the short novella I mentioned above and another one called "The Space Between." Other than that, only read the other stuff if you're a big Lord John fan.

[Dust Bunny]

I was diagnosed in January with bilateral breast cancer. After seeing a tweet about the show, I checked out an episode. I then started the books and just finished book 8 on Thursday. That's over 6,700 in 9 weeks. What a wonderful distraction! I'm now going back and skimming from book 1, while waiting for the show to return. I haven't devoured a series like this since "The Three Musketeers" saga in high school in 1993 after seeing the Chris O'Donnell movie. 

 

Loved the double wedding. After reading Fergus' line that cracked up Claire and Jamie (and me), I had to go back and reread Fergus' and Marsali's wedding. I wish all weddings were as entertaining as this series' weddings are.

 

Loved how Jamie resigned his commission without a second's pause. At that moment, his involvement with the war was over. It made me think of the D-Day episode of Band of Brothers when Winters promises himself that after the war he would go live somewhere quiet in peace. 

 

I love Jamie's paternal gravitation towards Fannie. It's like he sees her as the young Brianna he never got to raise.

 

William bored me at first, but now, by the end of this book, it seems like he's come into his own as a character. I loved all his interactions with Jamie.

 

I'm looking forward to Jamie's reaction when Brianna tells him about her and Jem's encounter with Brian. That was a beautiful - and heart-wrenching - scene.

 

I kept waiting for Roger, Brianna, Jem, and Mandy to show up at the Ridge, so that ending was pretty great.

 

Major kudos to those of you who started reading the series from the get-go. I can't imagine all the waiting that was involved, from one book to the next. I'm very late to the party, but it's great to be here.

[CatMack]

From the book 2 thread, I'm replying here because spoilers past book 2.  I can't actually remember when this happened, so I'm replying in this thread so there's no chance of spoiling someone, even though it's mild.  I'm pretty sure it was actually book 7, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

Yes, she does have sex with the King to get Jamie pardoned/out of jail. It's very quick and Claire, hilariously, notes his size. Understandably, I think Claire had a lot of anxiety about it, but in the end, it wasn't that bad. She realized for him, it was a transaction and something to say "I did a witch. Cool."

 

 

During book 2 she's very blase about it, but she does have a panic attack triggered in a later book by the smell of roses (the smell of the oil he used for lubrication).  It's a very non violent form of violation compared to many of the other instances in this series, but since consent was not freely given (she didn't want to have sex with him but felt like she had to) it is technically a form of rape (not legally in the time period, obviously, but morally and ethically).  It takes a few books but Gabaldon does eventually portray it that way from Claire's POV.  There are several instances where Gabaldon goes back and references past plot points where I really wished she hadn't (like Jamie reminiscing about beating Claire, in book  5 or 6 ish).  But I actually liked this moment, because I always felt the way she handled the encounter with Louis and the aftermath was a little too...IDK, rushed, I guess?  It's been awhile since I read it but I seem to recall focusing a lot on how Jamie felt about it, and I thought coming back to it as a triggering event for Claire and giving her emotions more time gave it more weight.

[Athena]

  But I actually liked this moment, because I always felt the way she handled the encounter with Louis and the aftermath was a little too...IDK, rushed, I guess?  It's been awhile since I read it but I seem to recall focusing a lot on how Jamie felt about it, and I thought coming back to it as a triggering event for Claire and giving her emotions more time gave it more weight.

 

Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to diminish the gravity of the situation because Claire was coerced and blackmailed (this was to save the love of her life after all) into it. I think she suppressed it and Jamie's reaction was put before hers. I think Claire was in such an extreme situation that she had to dismiss it. She will never think of it fondly (nor should she), but I think she acknowledge after it could have been much worse. As I said, the King treated it almost clinically, but it was a violation to Claire even if she consented.

[WatchrTina]

Somewhere in the later books Jamie informs Claire that King Louis is dead and Claire feels a sense of relief or release.  It was a small moment in the book but I liked it because it acknowledged that she had been carrying around negative feelings about him and the "price" he charged for freeing Jamie (feelings of resentment, hatred, or disgust -- I'm not sure which) that gives her good reason to greet the news of his death with some satisfaction.  

[AD55]

I thought I would bring the discussion of William that's going on in the Echo thread over here because so much of it involves things that happen in MOBY.

 

WatchrTina wrote,

 

"I forgive William all the angst he is going through.  He is, after all, a product of his time and his entire world was blown up by Jamie's revelation.  He has known three things all his life -- that he was born the Earl of Ellesmere, that his mother and father (actually his aunt and stepfather) who raised him loved him very much, and that as a child he knew and loved (and was loved by) a groom named Mackenzie.  In rapid succession he finds out that his whole identity, his whole place in society is a lie.  That the groom he loved actually had sex with his sainted dead mother (who it seems was not so sainted after all) -- a sexual liaison that is all the more humiliating in his eyes due to the difference in their social status.  Yes, I know Jamie is actually a Scottish Laird but while he was at Helwater he was (to quote William) "the fucking groom!"  And he discovers that his "mother and father" and his step-uncle, have all lied to him his entire life.  It's a lot to take in.

 

The fact that William is so tortured by the lie -- the fact that he feels he really doesn't have the right to the title he has borne all his life -- actually reflects well on him.  A lesser man might be more focused on ensuring that no one ever found out the truth and making damn sure that his claim to the title was secure.  William doesn't know what to do with himself because he feels like a fraud and now, in his hour of greatest turmoil, he can't really turn to his loved ones for comfort or guidance because he feels betrayed by their having lied to him for so long."

 

So yeah, I forgive him for being a bit a pill."

 

This captures much of why I cut William a lot of slack. At heart, I think he's an honorable young man who doesn't know his place in the world. He's the only one I can think of in his extended family who is struggling to discover who he is. I had the impression that was true to some extent even before he found out Jamie is his biological father. To make matters worse, everyone he meets, including Rachel whom he loved, is all, "yeah, I totally knew you were Jamie's son. How awesome for you." It must be humiliating to discover everyone except him knew the truth of his paternity and in a paradoxical way galling that Ian and the others have had a close relationship with someone who abandoned him as a child, even though it was with the best of intentions. We don't get over those experiences easily. How can he even know that Jamie loves him or ever will love him the way he does Ian and Briana?

 

I think the first words Jamie says to him post-revelation is "you're a stinking papist," as though he's just been waiting to throw that in William's face. That was a chaotic scene even for the Outlander-verse, so I am not really annoyed with Jamie, but sometimes people speak the truth under duress. That this is the first thing out of Jamie's mouth indicates to me how much anger and sorrow he's been carrying knowing that he can't acknowledge his own son. He turns some of that anger against William who is the source of his sorrow even though William is blameless. I actually think that's one of DG's more psychologically astute characterizations. Anger is irrational and Jamie has been heartbroken about William for c. 20 years. Now he has to face the prospect of losing him again. I think his reaction might be compared to the anger people sometimes feel when a loved one dies. It's unreasonable but understandable. Plus, if William resents being the son of a Scot, I daresay Jamie isn't thrilled that his son is an English lord.

 

William does ask Jamie for help, but it's not on his own behalf, which I think speaks to his character as does his taking seriously that Jane and Fanny are under his protection. It's not until that point that he knows, insofar as he can trust Jamie's word, that Jamie didn't rape his mother, which is another reason why he wasn't dancing a little jig when he discovered Jamie is his father. Kudos to Jamie for not telling him what led to his conception, which I can't imagine would benefit anyone.

 

I found William's leave-taking after Jane's burial poignant, especially his telling Claire that it doesn't matter where he goes. I hope he ends up in a better place in the next book and that he and Jamie are both able to let go of their anger.

 

Perhaps I am projecting because I remember vividly how lost and uncertain I sometimes felt as an adolescent and I had a relatively stable and uneventful youth.

Edited August 7, 2015 by AD55

[WatchrTina]

I think the first words Jamie says to him post-revelation is "you're a stinking papist," as though he's just been waiting to throw that in William's face.

Oh that's not my reading of that moment at all. Almost the very last thing that Jamie does before leaving William at Helwater is to baptize him. In that scene William asks "What's that little candle for? . . . grannie says only stinking Papists burn candles in front of heathen images." And Jamie replied "Well I am a stinking Papist." Then the goodbye scene continues and Willie declares "I want to be a stinking Papist too." Jamie is reluctant but William insists and so Jamie baptizes him, gives him his rosary (which Williams caries with him always, hidden, around his neck) and he gives him his baptismal name, James.

When William sees Jamie and recognizes the truth, he asks "Who are you?" and Jamie tells him. Then William asks "Who am I" and Jamie says "You're a stinking Papist" because those words will remind William more clearly than anything else, of that last conversation with his beloved "Mac." I don't think Jamie was throwing those words in Williams face. I think he was just reminding William of that conversation, making it clear to William that he was not only the James Fraser that William knew from his visit to Fraser's Ridge, but that he was also "Mac" the groom who loved William, baptized him, and gave him the only thing he could -- his name.

Edited August 7, 2015 by WatchrTina

[AD55]

Oh that's not my reading of that moment at all.  Almost the very last thing that Jamie does before leaving William at Helwater is to baptize him.  In that scene William asks "What's that little candle for? . . . grannie says only stinking Papists burn candles in from of heather images."  And Jamie replied "Well I am a stinking Papist."  Then the goodbye scene continues and Willie declares "I want to be a stinking Papist too."  Jamie is reluctant but William insists and so Jamie baptizes him, gives him his rosary (which Williams caries with him always, hidden, around his neck) and he gives him his baptismal name, James.

 

When William sees Jamie and recognizes the truth, he asks "Who are you?" and Jamie tells him.  Then William asks "Who am I" and Jamie says "You're a stinking Papist" because those words will remind William more clearly than anything else, of that last conversation with his beloved "Mac."  I don't think Jamie was throwing those words in Williams face.  I think he was just reminding William of that conversation, making it clear to William that he was not only the James Fraser that William knew from his visit to Fraser's Ridge, but that he was also "Mac" the groom who loved William, baptized him, and gave him the only thing he could -- his name.

 

Wow, what a memory you have! I just reread the scene, which I hadn't done for some time, and I think you are probably right. I also had forgotten that it took place at the end of Echo and not the beginning of MOBY. The way it's written, Gabaldon does give the impression that Jamie thinks things through in that scene. A bit unrealistic to my mind given that he's just returned from his traditional puke-fest aboard ship and the soldiers are hammering at the door, but there you have it. I still think it's possible for there to be more than one motivation for a character's actions, so I'm not entirely convinced that Jamie's only one was to remind William of Helwater. I continue to think that it's not just William who finds the fact that the two of them are from different sides of a violent and ongoing conflict a stumbling block.

 

I should probably reread all of the William-Jamie scenes, my memory being what it is. I recall sometimes wondering if Jamie loves William in any sense other than because he's his biological child or in a nostalgic way for the boy he knew at Helwater. To the best of my recollection, they don't have any kind of personal relationship after Helwater, so it's not reasonable for me to expect that he would feel the same way about William as he does about Ian whom he's known all his life and who is more his son than William is or perhaps can ever be. Jamie does believe William is entitled to ask for his help, as he shows during the failed rescue of Jane, but sometimes I get the impression he's going through the motions. On the other hand, I did find it touching when he uses a Gaelic term of endearment in that scene and subsequently expresses sympathy for William to Claire. The thing about Jamie is that he talks to a lot of people that way.

 

On a semi-related note, I have always found it unrealistic that William wears Jamie's rosary if for no other reason than you would have to think that someone would eventually notice and ask WTF? He was just a kid when Jamie left. How did he manage or remember to keep it hidden from everyone? Children are careless. Did he have his wits about him and remember to put it in a drawer that time he came down with the measles? What about those occasions he and his friends decided to go for an impromptu swim in the lake? Was he able to surreptitiously remove the rosary and find someplace to hide it without anyone noticing. It's a nice bit of business, but each time it comes up, it takes me out of the story. I just can't imagine a protestant aristocrat wearing a rosary 24/7 for years, regardless of its sentimental associations.

Edited August 7, 2015 by AD55

[WatchrTina]

 

To the best of my recollection, they don't have any kind of personal relationship after Helwater

Well, there is that interlude when Lord John and young William are visiting Fraser's Ridge and Lord John gets the measles.  Claire tells Jamie to take William in the woods and to not come back until the danger (of William catching them) is past.  William is afraid his adoptive father is going to die.  That first night Jamie embraces him as they lay down to sleep and comforts him while William weeps.  I presume that moment and the days of hunting / fishing / camping that followed while Jamie kept William safely out of the way of the disease resulted in some bonding between the two.  And James has certainly kept tabs on William from afar via letters from Lord John.  Remember how moved he was when Lord John gave him the miniature portrait in Voyager?  Remember him and Lord John looking down from a hotel room as William and Brianna meet on the street?  And remember how horrified he was when he realized -- after the fact -- that he had nearly shot William on a battlefield (he shot his hat off.)  I think it's pretty clear that Jamie has very strong feelings about William, his only son.

 

As for the rosary -- I'm sure young William didn't wear it.  You're right -- he didn't have enough privacy to get away with that.  But adult William could always explain it away if anyone asked.  Soldiers are a superstitious lot.  He could just say it was a gift and he wears it in remembrance and as a good luck charm and no one would fault him.  They'd think he had a Catholic sweetheart somewhere in his past.

Edited August 7, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

And remember how horrified he was when he realized -- after the fact -- that he had nearly shot William on a battlefield (he shot his hat off.)  I think it's pretty clear that Jamie has very strong feelings about William, his only son.

I just read that part in Echo and I don't think it was William. It was another officer riding beside Simon Fraser--a younger cousin of Jamie's. William was up ahead involved with other folks. And there's the line about how he, Jamie wouldn't shoot Simon...looks over and sees William riding up, and thinks, and another one he will never shoot.  

 

Jamie meant to shoot the hat off, and did, but realized how close he came to putting a bullet in the man's head.  The reason why I don't think it was William, was because a few lines later, the way it's written, shows William joining the skirmish.

 

Then again, I am exhausted this morning, after having stayed up late to watch the last Daily Show with Jon Stewart live last night.

 

ETA: Never mind. It was William. Just got confirmation a few chapters later!

Edited August 7, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[lianau]

Regarding the stinking papist , I don't think Jamie was thinking much  during that scene , he just answers William's question . And Jamie rarely spoke  the word "son" out loud so stinking papist was probably a way to answer the question without using words he couldn't use for all those years..

[nodorothyparker]

Jamie's been pretty shut down and compartmentalized about William because he had to be.  He couldn't claim him.  He couldn't acknowledge him in anyway.  I read most of his interactions with William from that first "You're a stinking papist" right through his stumbling on using the word "father" in his late in book talk with William at the warehouse as him really struggling to control letting in or showing any feeling about it.  Jamie's revelation feels very much like a just the facts stating of things.  The cat's out of the bag so here's a brief summing up of the full story in terms you'll be able to place.

 

Because for all practical purposes he has forfeited the right to be anything to William.  I don't believe he ever really expects to have any relationship with William (He's spent the last 14-15 years reconciled to the fact that there wouldn't be one.), but if there is ever to be any William is going to have to decide to come to him.  Jamie can't pursue him.

 

The scene that really strikes me as far as how conflicted William is about all this is the moment when William suddenly and clearly does remember the day Jamie called him a stinking papist.  He's described as feeling like he'd just been shot in the back and is desolate that "you left me!"  He's in tears over it and it obviously both angers and confuses him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

And so I started this yesterday evening. And I was up until 3:30 this morning reading it, because I wanted to get to the part where Jamie and Claire reunite, goddammit!

 

But first--let me just get this out of the way, aye? YES! Willie shot Arch--in the heid, so there's nay chance of him resurrecting.

 

DG needs to, well, never mind, since I'm all caught up, but her epilogues and prologues, or picking up from where she left off, are very confusing.  Like, the end of Echo, we have the scene with Wee Ian and Rachel--Ian's all bandaged up, and he tells her he's killed, can she accept him, etc., etc., yet, in the prologue in this buik, we have him mourning Jenny--there is no indication of whether this happened before the epilogue in Echo or after, but then partway through Part I, we have the scene where Wee Ian tells her everything he's been through and done, and it's as if Rachel never said "I love you thee" in the epilogue in Echo, but the first time she admits it here.

 

And up until he gets all pissy and has Wee Ian arrested for "assaulting an Officer" (My ARSE), I had no problems with what Willie was feeling, or the emotions running through him or how he was handling it.  His anger should be directed at Lord John, and yes, Jamie. Not Wee Ian. And Willie did hit Wee Ian first.   In other words:

 

(putting on me wee wean hat): Willie STARTED it!!!!!

 

And now, I'm peeved at him. And totally loved and cheered Jamie pulling him aside and telling Willie what Willie was going to do.

 

I really started to like and enjoy Lord John in Echo. But who knew I would start to love him in this buik? Though, I agree, I'm not sure what he was thinking to say to Jamie that he'd had "carnal knowledge" of Claire, OR that they were both "fucking" Jamie.

 

And that reunion, just like the one in Voyager was EVERYTHING. I'm glad it wasn't just a page or two. It was so real--the emotions and feelings from both Claire and Jamie.

 

Go Jemmy!!!!!

 

I've spoilt myself reading this thread before starting the buik, so I know some of what's going to happen, but damn, RobarseholeCameron has accomplices?! How'd that ratbastardprick escape the priest hole?

 

And dammit, what is it with DG's fetish for rape? Yes, fetish.  She could have simply let it be simple greed for Rob kidnapping Jemmy. But no, she has to throw in him wanting to rape Bree as well. I will say, this is the first time I've enjoyed Bree.

 

I'm joining the chorus of "Brian Fraser!!!!

 

I hope Roger is wrong in thinking that Buccleigh and Cameron are in cahoots. I hope that he just suffers from asthma or something, like Hal.

 

Speaking of Hal--all his scenes once Claire kidnaps him--who knew he had a sense of humor? Or rather, he could be funny? And again, going back to continuity gaffes, okay, not continuity, but forgetting how a character has been described. Throughout this series and even in the two Lord John buiks I read, Hal is described to be an older version of Lord John in looks--blue eyes, blonde hair. Yet, now, while Claire is tending to him, he suddenly has chestnutty, reddish brown hair?

 

Oh Goody. Fictionalized Clinton, Lee, and Washington.

 

Me: Can we move along?

 

Mrs. Figg is starting to annoy me. Mrs. Bug levels of annoyance. And yeah, yeah, Lord John is the apple of her eye, blah, blah, blah.

 

Puir Jemmy, feeling as if Roger being gone is his fault.  And now, along with reading more of Jamie and Claire...I'm anxiously wanting Roger to either get back to his family or at least, forward to 1778. And I certainly do NOT, and I mean NOT want tae see that sadistic piece of shit, Randall.

 

And puir Jamie, wrenching his back, which delayed his reunion with Claire. But I loved his scenes with Mrs. Hardman and her children.

 

And I'm only at 25%!!!!

 

And now it's off tae work...

Edited August 10, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Laurie]

Yes! 

 

I'm at work so I don't have the books with me but I seem to recall several timeline issues with this book that had me scratching my head.

 

I think it probably stems from the way she writes.  If you've heard/read any of her interviews...and if you've heard/read one you've heard/read them all because her script doesn't change....she'll say she "doesn't write with an outline nor in a straightline" so I think she loses track of what she's already written.  Especially if it's in a previous book. Or I've also heard her say that sometimes she writes something for the book she's working on but it ultimately doesn't fit but she'll use it in a later book.  I suppose that could complicate things, too.

 

Laurie

[GHScorpiosRule]

I forgot to add, that I agree with those that said that this buik is structured much better than, say, the last two? It reads a lot more smoothly (so far!) despite the fuckery of the timelines.

 

And since I was still high on Oxy when I went to bed this morning and when I wrote my initial thoughts, I also forgot to say, that when Jamie told Willie to step aside because he had something to tell him...just the small scene, with the dialogue and Willie's reactions, one would think Willie was 12 instead of the 19? 20? year old he actually is! I'm glad Jamie didn't get too rough with him, but enough, by squeezing that nerve under his arm (thanks to his Sassenach!), it very much felt like a father scolding his son and telling said son what he better do if he kent wot was guid for him.

 

Howeverrrrr (ye all kent I couldna just leave it at that, aye?) The whole scene where Willie gets drunk and saves Arabella Jane from that pervert, Harkness, is very confusing. I mean, I know Willie wanted to go and get drunk after that set down by Jamie, but the way it was written how his friend Sandy then took him to the brothel, sat him down, and then Willie hears, or doesn't hear...voices...sees, doesn't see colors...did Sandy take him there and drop him off thinking a night having sex would make him feel better? Or was it something more sinister? Or, am I just thinking too hard about this? Or was it the effect of the Oxy?

[nodorothyparker]

I just assumed William was that stinking drunk and have never given it much thought beyond that.  Sadly, I know from my own drinking days, that you can get to a point where stuff seems to go in and out of focus and time may feel distorted to you.  I like the line about being drunk enough that you can perceive the problem but can't figure out what to do about it.  Been there.

 

I really like the whole sequence of events that starts with the William-Ian fight and ends with Jamie treating him like an errant child.  Because it's his first dealings with his biological relatives after learning the truth.  We already know he's been as pissed as hell and agonizing about it and then suddenly there's Ian, who he seemed to generally like before during their swamp adventure and was willing to look the other way for after Ticonderoga, but now he knows that Ian's his blood relative and clearly knew it but didn't bother to tell him either.  So now it's not just the Grey side of the family that lied to him.  Then in one fell swoop, he learns that not only does the woman he's attracted to prefer that cousin to him but oh yeah, the paternity he just learned about is apparently so obvious and such common knowledge that she and her brother were gossiping about it.

 

He's a right jerk to be sure letting the British take him for assaulting an officer, but he does sort of mentally struggle with it afterward.  And it sets up the wonderful Jamie-William exchange where Jamie does acknowledge William's anger before doing the fatherly equivalent of taking him by the scruff of his neck and letting him know how it's going to be.

Edited August 11, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh good; then it was just me reading that scene while being doped up on Oxy.

 

I get Willie's anger, I do; but what did he expect Wee Ian to do when he met him again as adult--'Oh aye, by the way, ye ken that we're related? That Jamie is actually yer faither?' Just when and how would have been the time to tell him?

 

And like I said, for the most part, I really like Willie, and although he's fairly young, he's really a man, considering the era and after having fought, and killed.  You know?

 

It is really very odd; I am getting the weirdest sense of deja vu as I read the scene where that arsehole Cameron comes to Fiona's house under the guise of wanting hear the stories about the stones. The fear of Jemmy, as he covers his mouth while he's hiding...the whole thing up until he holds Mandy...I feel like I've read that before, and I know I've never read this buik before getting it yesterday. I never picked up another DG after giving up on Voyager over 12 years ago.

[nodorothyparker]

Oh, he's completely in the wrong and completely irrational about all of it.  Because you're right.  While I'm guessing the subject has never come up between Ian and Jamie in all the years since John and William's visit to the Ridge, Ian is smart enough to realize that William doesn't know and that the people who do clearly want it left alone.  So what was he realistically supposed to do?  But anger is often irrational like that and you could kind of see William feeling like he'd been treated like a clueless child as he quickly realized that seemingly every single other person connected to either family already knew.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh, he's completely in the wrong and completely irrational about all of it.  Because you're right.  While I'm guessing the subject has never come up between Ian and Jamie in all the years since John and William's visit to the Ridge, Ian is smart enough to realize that William doesn't know and that the people who do clearly want it left alone.  So what was he realistically supposed to do?  But anger is often irrational like that and you could kind of see William feeling like he'd been treated like a clueless child as he quickly realized that seemingly every single other person connected to either family already knew.

 

Oh absolutely! Even as far back when Wee Ian was 17 and Willie was 12--he saw the resemblance, and I think I recall how Wee Ian looked at Claire and started to ask her, but she cut him off with a look or something.  And of course, in the past two buiks EVERYONE has been saying how it's so obvious because he's like Jamie's twin. Jamie with an English accent, except for the color of the hair. Hence Willie's "Fuck the resemblance!" he's yelling at everyone.

 

Oh and I have to say, two new favorite phrases I got from Echo:

 

"Stinking Papist" and "Ye Wee Ignorant Protestant."  Both make me giggle.

[WatchrTina]

 

I get Willie's anger, I do; but what did he expect Wee Ian to do when he met him again as adult--'Oh aye, by the way, ye ken that we're related? That Jamie is actually yer faither?

Wasn't there a moment back in the Dismal Swamp when Ian & William were talking to some Indians and Ian introduced William as "his cousin?"  Or did he send him a note that was either addressed or ended with "cousin."  Possibly both.  At any rate, William just thought Ian was being odd (or in the case of the Indians, trying to protect him by claiming kinship -- you don't fuck around with a Mohawk's kin.)

 

So . . . now I have to go back to the book and read this scene between William and Jamie that you have been describing because I have NO MEMORY of it.  It's so weird.  Parts of this book are burned into my memory and other just vanish in the ether.  I can't believe I've completely forgotten a Jamie/William scene.  Sheesh!

Edited August 11, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

So . . . now I have to go back to the book and read this scene between William and Jamie that you have been describing because I have NO MEMORY of it.  It's so weird.  Parts of this book are burned into my memory and other just vanish in the ether.  I can't believe I've completely forgotten a Jamie/William scene.  Sheesh!

 

WatchrTina, it takes place right after Jamie leaves Mrs. Hardman, and Wee Ian and Rachel see that Willie is directing the Loyalists, as they're leaving Philadelphia. Wee Ian is happy to see Willie, whereas, Willie is not happy to see him. It's in Part I of the buik if that helps.

[nodorothyparker]

Chapter 21.  Last scene of Bloody Men.

 

Wasn't there a moment back in the Dismal Swamp when Ian & William were talking to some Indians and Ian introduced William as "his cousin?"  Or did he send him a note that was either addressed or ended with "cousin."  Possibly both.  At any rate, William just thought Ian was being odd (or in the case of the Indians, trying to protect him by claiming kinship -- you don't fuck around with a Mohawk's kin.)

 

Yes, this did happen and I read it the same way.  William has a brief moment somewhere in there of thinking that this stranger (to him) has taken an inordinate amount of interest in him, but it's mostly lost in all the feverishness and his own paranoia about possibly being sent on a suicide mission by Richardson.  So of course now that he knows, the first thing he spits at Ian meeting him again is "Cousin!"

[lianau]

I love the dynamic between Ian and William . William clearly likes Ian  but he doesn't like it that he likes him so we get situations like the swamp reversal  where Ian is injured and feverish and William has to get him to a Denny .

Edited August 11, 2015 by lianau

[AD55]

Oh, he's completely in the wrong and completely irrational about all of it. Because you're right. While I'm guessing the subject has never come up between Ian and Jamie in all the years since John and William's visit to the Ridge, Ian is smart enough to realize that William doesn't know and that the people who do clearly want it left alone. So what was he realistically supposed to do? But anger is often irrational like that and you could kind of see William feeling like he'd been treated like a clueless child as he quickly realized that seemingly every single other person connected to either family already knew.

It's hard to argue with this, but if Rachel and Ian had just let William go instead of chasing after someone who clearly did not want to talk to them, that would have been the end of it. William did beg Ian's pardon for hitting him and tried to clear out knowing that he was about to pop off. While he was already angry at Ian, I think it was his betrothal to Rachel and the discovery that Rachel knew Jamie was his father (and had gossiped about it with her brother as nodorothyparker said) that set him off. His fury that everyone but him knew about his parentage combined with his feelings about Rachel were all too much for him. Again, not excusing his behavior here. I like to think that he would have freed Ian on his own before any real harm was done even if Jamie hadn't blackmailed him. Speaking of which, it's a shame that Jamie had to use William's bastardy as a weapon in this instance, though I don't know what else he could have done given that he had to think on his feet and did a pretty impressive job of doing so. He doesn't have any other threat to hold over William's head, but it's ironic that Jamie won't claim William as his son unless he has to in order to protect another family member. What an f'ed up family.

William's lived a privileged life that he now realizes he was not entitled to. I've seen some of the Daily Lines that DG posts to her twitter feed, and I'm looking forward to how he reconciles himself to this. Speaking of which, isn't it somewhat ahistorical that Hal and now William both went into the military given that they are both earls? In Hal's case, I think he was the heir when he went off to war. I always thought that was what second sons such as Lord John did since they are expendable.

Edited August 11, 2015 by AD55