Book 4: Drums of Autumn

[Petunia846]

I am about a third of the way through this book right now. I haven't read the thread yet so as not to be spoiled for upcoming events.

 

I just had to say, I am freaking out right now because Jamie and Claire are literally building a homestead exactly where I live. I had heard that they make their way to the NC mountains, so I have been looking forward to reading this book since I live there. The NC mountains extend over 200 miles, and they could be anywhere. But the more I read, the more I began to wonder if they are in my neck o' the woods. I did some searching to see if there is an exact location, and found this article from Diana about the location of "Fraser Ridge" being by Grandfather Mountain.

 

OMG, I live right by Grandfather Mountain. It truly is a magical place. We have the Highland Games that Diana mentions in that article in my town every year. It's funny, because the first time I travelled to the Scottish Highlands I was amazed at how much it looks like this area (with a lot less trees), which is why the Highland Games are so popular here. I can understand why Jamie would fall in love with it. After being fully absorbed in Jamie and Claire-land for the last few months it is quite surreal to think of them living in my neighborhood. I wish they could stay here and live happily ever after, but expect that won't happen, otherwise there wouldn't be five more books (nor would it be very much like them to stay put for long)!

I'm just across on the TN side, and I agree...it's a magical area and fun to imagine them there. Any time I go for a walk in the park I can just picture them there, building cabins, tending gardens, going fishing...I can't wait for the show to get to this part of the books.

[chocolatetruffle]

I am about a third of the way through this book right now. I haven't read the thread yet so as not to be spoiled for upcoming events.

 

I just had to say, I am freaking out right now because Jamie and Claire are literally building a homestead exactly where I live. I had heard that they make their way to the NC mountains, so I have been looking forward to reading this book since I live there. The NC mountains extend over 200 miles, and they could be anywhere. But the more I read, the more I began to wonder if they are in my neck o' the woods. I did some searching to see if there is an exact location, and found this article from Diana about the location of "Fraser Ridge" being by Grandfather Mountain.

 

OMG, I live right by Grandfather Mountain. It truly is a magical place. We have the Highland Games that Diana mentions in that article in my town every year. It's funny, because the first time I travelled to the Scottish Highlands I was amazed at how much it looks like this area (with a lot less trees), which is why the Highland Games are so popular here. I can understand why Jamie would fall in love with it. After being fully absorbed in Jamie and Claire-land for the last few months it is quite surreal to think of them living in my neighborhood. I wish they could stay here and live happily ever after, but expect that won't happen, otherwise there wouldn't be five more books (nor would it be very much like them to stay put for long)!

 

Starla, when you get 3/4 of the way through the book let me know because I have a couple of questions about some landmarks mentioned and I would love to ask a local.

[WatchrTina]

 

the first time I travelled to the Scottish Highlands I was amazed at how much it looks like this area (with a lot less trees)

Well, that makes me happy to hear because I presume the show will continue to shoot mostly in Scotland, with the Scottish Highlands doubling for North Carolina.  I'm glad to hear that if they do that it will look credible.

[Starla]

I'm just across on the TN side, and I agree...it's a magical area and fun to imagine them there. Any time I go for a walk in the park I can just picture them there, building cabins, tending gardens, going fishing...I can't wait for the show to get to this part of the books.

 

 

I had the fleeting thought that they could possibly film here. How cool would that be? I heard an interview with Ron Moore a while back, and he said they briefly considered filming the series here since it looks so much like Scotland. I doubt it would happen but it's fun to think about.

 

And hey, we're practically neighbors!

 

 

Starla, when you get 3/4 of the way through the book let me know because I have a couple of questions about some landmarks mentioned and I would love to ask a local.

 

Will do, chocolatetruffle. I could blab on and on for hours about these mountains, I love them so much!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I've just started Drums, and though it's not nearly as funny as Jamie's reaction to Claire waxing her "oxters!" in Dragonfly, Jamie's reaction and asking if Claire was masturbating when they're at the rock, did make me grin.

 

And I don't know why, but every time Young Ian says "Auntie" or "Uncle", I just smile and giggle. Because he's 16 and not 6, and I keep expecting him to say "Aunt" instead, hee!

 

And because I'm spoiled, when I learned who that criminal who escaped hanging was, I was screaming "No!! Don't save him, Jamie!! Dinna take him to his fellow smugglers!!"

 

And I'm laughing again at Claire's explanation to Jamie about the Native Americans, and his inability to think beyond their scalping.

 

And Rollo! The Wolf/Dog Rollo, who Claire hates, but Young Ian loves, and who actually does catch his own fish to eat!

 

And of course, by now, you know I have to add in my eye-roll worthy stuff:

 

Yes, yes, DIANE, I know this is 18th century American Colonies/New World, and people didn't bathe or have good hygiene, but ENOUGH with the descriptions of "thick" layers of grime on a person's neck to emphasize they probably hadn't bathed in weeks or months! Along with descriptions of how much they stink. I get it, I really do.

 

And I live in a state RIPE with humidity, and have been to my home country, where two of the cities are so HUMID in the summer, it's difficult to breathe, but the way she had Claire describe the humidity in South Carolina (I believe that's where they are right now) is, well, I'm rrrrolling me eyes. And I understand, it's probably because Claire is from England/been to Scotland/lived in Boston, and that's why she's not used to it.

 

I'm finding the Bree and Roger in '69 boring, and am pretty much skimming those, except for as it pertains to Jamie and Claire.

 

And it's nice to be back with Claire again. I didn't realize how much I'd missed her, while reading those two Lord John novels.

Edited June 18, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Petunia846]

Yeah, there's not much you really need to follow about Bree and Roger in '69.

 

And I know what you mean about Claire. I love her voice so much. It's not so much that I dislike all the other POVs Diana delves into, but I really find myself missing Claire too.

[Starla]

I just finished this book. Overall I thoroughly enjoyed it because of the location and the interactions with the native americans. I'm relieved that Jamie came around from thinking they were all heathen savages to being friends with many of them. I am glad Claire pointed out to him that their culture was destroyed and their land taken in a way similar to the Scottish, so he could begin to understand their perspective. I also kind of love the idea of Ian being a member of the Mohawk tribe, though I will miss him if he is not in future books. I hope he and Rollo are re-integrated into the story going forward, because they are a joy to have around in the midst of so much drama.

 

I had trouble with some parts of the book, mostly The Roger Situation. What a mess. The whole business was frustrating to wade through, and I spent that section of the book disliking everyone involved. As Claire said, it was everyone's fault, and no one's. I've always liked Roger, but I came out liking him even more than when I started, and I'm sorry to say, liking Bree a little less. I know she went through a lot, but wow she can be pig-headed. Hopefully she'll grow on me again going forward.

 

The letter from Frank at the end was a surprise. I had a feeling Jamie's gravestone was put there by someone, and was not his actual grave. I thought maybe Jamie and Claire put it there so future Claire would know he didn't die at Culloden. It was a surprise that Frank did it. Also, the fact that Frank said he felt like he knew Jamie, and could feel his presence, was eerie. Like he could sense BJR's interactions with Jamie through his bloodline. Super creepy. I'm still wondering how Jack Randall died exactly, and why he was buried in that kirkyard in Scotland.

 

 

Starla, when you get 3/4 of the way through the book let me know because I have a couple of questions about some landmarks mentioned and I would love to ask a local.

 

You can ask your question, chocolatetruffle. If it is about the standing stones Roger found, there are no such stones in this region. There are plenty of huge natural boulders that stand upright due to ancient continental shifts and such, but nothing man-made. So like Craigh na Dun, this circle is fictional. Based on the description of the location (8 days north of Fraser's Ridge by horse, moving at 2-3 miles per hour), I did some calculations and think the location of the stone circle would be somewhere in Virginia or West Virginia. They didn't leave the mountains so they probably travelled along the Blue Ridge, what is now the Blue Ridge Parkway. The stones are probably somewhere in the Shenandoah Valley region, or maybe a little south of it.

 

I also checked on the location of the Mohawk camp. The book mentioned it was in Upper Castle, which is in New York. See wikipedia article. That is a really long way to travel in the winter and I'm surprised they made it there and back as quickly as they did. And that Roger found the stones again by himself with a crippled foot.

 

I've managed to avoid most spoilers for the rest of the books, so I have no idea what is going to happen from this point forward. I'm currently listening to the Lord John audiobooks, but plan to take a bit of a break before moving on with the rest of the main books. It will be fun to come back to them in a few months without any sense of where it's headed.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm about a third of the way in, and am really enjoying it.  Of course, just when I think, Awesome Copy Editor got his or her hands on this book, I get smacked with details upon details that I can just do without!

 

But.  I laughed when we got Jamie's reaction to Claire rigging up a "brassiere", but especially at her wearing trousers. I love those moments.

 

I don't think it was Claire's explaining how the Native Americans were decimated just like the Scots were that got Jamie to not think of them as "bloody heathens" who did nothing more than "scalp" their victims, but meeting those first Natives when Jamie killed the bear and being able to communicate with them, and then realizing they weren't savages.

 

I will not lie. I am imagining the wolf/dog that played Sully's "Wolf" in Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman in the role of Rollo.  

 

And like I said before, I'm 99% skimming/skipping all the Bree and Roger parts. And am left confused by previous comments about how they finally tell each other how they feel at the end of the book, when clearly, in the beginning, Roger has told Bree he's in love with her and wants to marry her, and she tells him that she thinks she feels the same. So the comments about how it's great that she knows Roger's feelings is, well, head scratching.

 

So I've stopped at the part where Jamie, Ian and Rollo have found Claire, after she got tossed by a horse and was out in the rain. Well, where Jamie has just bathed her and his scolding her in Gaelic. The more I see of 40-something Jamie, the more I'm wishing and hoping the show gets past Voyager so we can see this Jamie.

 

And it doesna hurrt, that I'm envisionin' Sam's Jamie while I'm readin' and Cait's Claire.

[chocolatetruffle]

You can ask your question, chocolatetruffle. If it is about the standing stones Roger found, there are no such stones in this region. There are plenty of huge natural boulders that stand upright due to ancient continental shifts and such, but nothing man-made. So like Craigh na Dun, this circle is fictional. Based on the description of the location (8 days north of Fraser's Ridge by horse, moving at 2-3 miles per hour), I did some calculations and think the location of the stone circle would be somewhere in Virginia or West Virginia. They didn't leave the mountains so they probably travelled along the Blue Ridge, what is now the Blue Ridge Parkway. The stones are probably somewhere in the Shenandoah Valley region, or maybe a little south of it.

 

 

Really!  Because I lived in Charlottesville for 6 years - I wish I was there now so that I could explore some more of the area along the Blue Ridge Parkway.  

 

Actually my question is about the rhododendron field that Roger tried to hide in:  are there any such fields or were there ever in the region?  And my other question was about the caves described near the ridge, like where Claire spent the night when she saw the ghost of the Native American time traveler.  Are there a lot of caves near Grandfather Mountain?  

[Petunia846]

I had trouble with some parts of the book, mostly The Roger Situation. What a mess. The whole business was frustrating to wade through, and I spent that section of the book disliking everyone involved. As Claire said, it was everyone's fault, and no one's. I've always liked Roger, but I came out liking him even more than when I started, and I'm sorry to say, liking Bree a little less. I know she went through a lot, but wow she can be pig-headed. Hopefully she'll grow on me again going forward.

I think you're in good company with those feelings. I know that's how I felt too. It's such false conflict, because it's all just because Bree didn't tell everyone what was going on and Jamie and Ian didn't ask and Roger didn't speak up...just talk to each other people!

 

The letter from Frank at the end was a surprise. I had a feeling Jamie's gravestone was put there by someone, and was not his actual grave. I thought maybe Jamie and Claire put it there so future Claire would know he didn't die at Culloden. It was a surprise that Frank did it. Also, the fact that Frank said he felt like he knew Jamie, and could feel his presence, was eerie. Like he could sense BJR's interactions with Jamie through his bloodline. Super creepy. I'm still wondering how Jack Randall died exactly, and why he was buried in that kirkyard in Scotland.

I don't remember that, part but that's really interesting and yes, creepy.

 

So I've stopped at the part where Jamie, Ian and Rollo have found Claire, after she got tossed by a horse and was out in the rain. Well, where Jamie has just bathed her and his scolding her in Gaelic. The more I see of 40-something Jamie, the more I'm wishing and hoping the show gets past Voyager so we can see this Jamie.

I love that part! The ghost and how they found her and all of Jamie's scolding. Love it.

[Starla]

Really!  Because I lived in Charlottesville for 6 years - I wish I was there now so that I could explore some more of the area along the Blue Ridge Parkway.  

 

Actually my question is about the rhododendron field that Roger tried to hide in:  are there any such fields or were there ever in the region?  And my other question was about the caves described near the ridge, like where Claire spent the night when she saw the ghost of the Native American time traveler.  Are there a lot of caves near Grandfather Mountain?  

 

 

Yes to the rhododendron! I hike on Grandfather Mountain at least twice a week, and it is thick with them. That being said, this area was clearcut in the last 75-150 years ago, so all the huge trees and rhododendron groves are gone. Grandfather was clearcut in the 1920s. (sad face.... yes I'm a treehugger). But even now, 90 years later, the rhododendron patches have regrown and are at least 10 feet tall and too thick to crawl through. I sympathized with Roger during his attempted escape, but knew it was a good hiding place. As a side note... I hiked this weekend and the rhodos are just about to bloom! It's the most beautiful thing.

 

 

I think you're in good company with those feelings. I know that's how I felt too. It's such false conflict, because it's all just because Bree didn't tell everyone what was going on and Jamie and Ian didn't ask and Roger didn't speak up...just talk to each other people!

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I could NOT understand why Bree and Claire didn't mention Bonnet to Jamie, and why Roger didn't tell Jamie he loves Bree while he was getting the shite beat out of him, or why Jamie didn't tell Bree and Claire he beat up the guy who "raped" her. Ugh.

 

And while we're on the subject of Stephen Bonnet, are all Irish people total scoundrels in Outlander? I have a special fondness for Ireland and its folk, but every Irish person we've met so far in the first four books is a thief, rapist, or total douchebag. It would be nice to meet a pleasant, kind Irishman, as I know they are.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Stupid question--but Fraser's Ridge is in South Carolina or North?  And now I'm trying to remember if Last of the Mohicans was filmed in North or South--because wherever it was filmed, it was gorgeous. 

[auntlada]

I believe it is in North Carolina. I remember being all excited they were in North Carolina because my Scottish ancestors came to this country and settled in North Carolina sometime between 1758 and 1764.

Edited June 22, 2015 by auntlada

[Starla]

Stupid question--but Fraser's Ridge is in South Carolina or North?  And now I'm trying to remember if Last of the Mohicans was filmed in North or South--because wherever it was filmed, it was gorgeous. 

 

It's in northwestern North Carolina, in the Blue Ridge Mountains. According to Diana Gaboldon, it is within 10 miles of Grandfather Mountain. See info and images here and here.

 

Last of the Mohicans was filmed near Asheville, in the Smokey Mountains near Chimney Rock. It is about a two hour drive south of Grandfather Mountain.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I believe it is in North Carolina. I remember being all excited they were in North Carolina because my Scottish ancestors came to this country and settled in North Carolina sometime between 1758 and 1764.

 

 

It's in northwestern North Carolina, in the Blue Ridge Mountains. According to Diana Gaboldon, it is within 10 miles of Grandfather Mountain. See info and images here and here.

 

Last of the Mohicans was filmed near Asheville, in the Smokey Mountains near Chimney Rock. It is about a two hour drive south of Grandfather Mountain.

 

Thanks auntlada and Starla!

[chocolatetruffle]

Yes to the rhododendron! I hike on Grandfather Mountain at least twice a week, and it is thick with them. That being said, this area was clearcut in the last 75-150 years ago, so all the huge trees and rhododendron groves are gone. Grandfather was clearcut in the 1920s. (sad face.... yes I'm a treehugger). But even now, 90 years later, the rhododendron patches have regrown and are at least 10 feet tall and too thick to crawl through. I sympathized with Roger during his attempted escape, but knew it was a good hiding place. As a side note... I hiked this weekend and the rhodos are just about to bloom! It's the most beautiful thing.

 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I could NOT understand why Bree and Claire didn't mention Bonnet to Jamie, and why Roger didn't tell Jamie he loves Bree while he was getting the shite beat out of him, or why Jamie didn't tell Bree and Claire he beat up the guy who "raped" her. Ugh.

 

That is so freaking AWESOME!  They must be an amazing sight, even if the groves are diminished from their original size.  Now, spill, woman - are there caves in the area as well??

 

That whole Roger/Mackenzie/rapist section has sooooo many moments when a simple word could have stopped the ensuing fiasco it strains credibility: why didn't Roger introduce himself as "Roger" Mackenzie; why didn't Bree mention that Roger was using Mackenzie as his last name; why didn't anyone talk to anyone about what was going on?  

[Starla]

That is so freaking AWESOME!  They must be an amazing sight, even if the groves are diminished from their original size.  Now, spill, woman - are there caves in the area as well??

 

Yes there are quite a few caves and big clefts in the rocks and cliff faces that are big enough to stand or camp in. Also a few deep subterranean caverns. This book did not describe the cave at the stone circle, but the one in Voyager that Geillis tried to go through was described in detail as a deep underground cavern with multiple passageways, and there are some caverns around here like that. I find it interesting that the time portals in the Indies/American standing stones are in caves, but the Scotland one isn't. Claire did suspect there might be one under Loch Ness, where the waterhorse could have come through. I'm really curious to know more about the physics of these portals, and exactly where they are located around the earth. There is a lot of info about channels and vortexes of strong energy around the earth (the planet's "acupuncture points") and I assume the time passages are at these points.

[chocolatetruffle]

Yes there are quite a few caves and big clefts in the rocks and cliff faces that are big enough to stand or camp in. Also a few deep subterranean caverns. This book did not describe the cave at the stone circle, but the one in Voyager that Geillis tried to go through was described in detail as a deep underground cavern with multiple passageways, and there are some caverns around here like that. I find it interesting that the time portals in the Indies/American standing stones are in caves, but the Scotland one isn't. Claire did suspect there might be one under Loch Ness, where the waterhorse could have come through. I'm really curious to know more about the physics of these portals, and exactly where they are located around the earth. There is a lot of info about channels and vortexes of strong energy around the earth (the planet's "acupuncture points") and I assume the time passages are at these points.

 

Thanks starla!  Your descriptions really help give me a better image of what the area is like.  In the section where Claire gets lost and ends up so hidden or stuck that she couldn't get out, I could not visualize exactly how she got there or what the area looked like.  I also thought it interesting that the portal was in a cave and that Roger was even able to recognize it as such.  

[Starla]

It's funny, I could picture exactly what Claire went through when she was thrown off the horse down into the ravine. I have friends who volunteer to go out into the backcountry around here to help rescue hikers who have fallen into a gorge or off a steep cliff face or otherwise went into the forest and never came out. It is nearly impossible to get yourself out without help if you aren't familiar with the terrain. I always carry a whistle while hiking so I can scare off bears if needed (I can't kill them with my bare hands like Jamie) or signal for help if I fall into a crevice. Luckily I've never had to use it!

 

There were caves on Grandfather Mountain that were once filled with quartz crystal. Unfortunately they've all been mined (bummer), but I imagine they had some pretty potent energy back in Jamie and Claire's days.

[Petunia846]

There are some very extensive caverns further north, up in Virginia, that are part of the Appalachian mountains. We used to go to Skyline caverns when I was little. I know I've been in caves on the TN side of the Smokies too. We went on a trip in college, but all I really remember of it is that we were all wearing hard hats and this one big football player guy stood up too suddenly and squished a bat with his hard hat.

[lianau]

I think you're in good company with those feelings. I know that's how I felt too. It's such false conflict, because it's all just because Bree didn't tell everyone what was going on and Jamie and Ian didn't ask and Roger didn't speak up...just talk to each other people!

I think the main reason for that conflict is the Jamie-Brianna dynamic. They are father and daughter but they never lived that relationship before . They are both trying to present the best picture of themselves to each other with Claire as the translator when it gets difficult. I'm also not sure if Brianna really knows Roger went back to Mackenzie. He's called Mackenzie by one of the sailors just as he's meeting Bree in the past but they leave and have their highly emotional discussion marriage consummation fight without ever mentioning it again . Even their wedding vows are without a last name . So she told her parents that Roger came after her but skipped the finer points of how she lost her virginity to a guy she married on the spot in shack or got raped because she wanted to get Claire's old wedding ring to Frank back - Frank being a sensible topic for Jamie. That ring and Bonnet's name then ties Claire's tongue . Until it all explodes.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yuck. Eww. Just gross. Just what was the point of the snake in the privy? Or worse yet, having Willie fall down in the shit? For giggles? Ha, ha, I'm laughing so hard! That was just soooo amusing and funny! NOT.

 

And my, the Ninth Earl of Ellesmere is a spoiled little brat.

 

Finally! Two chapters from Jamie's POV.

 

My love for Ian continues to grow by leaps and bounds, and I never fail to smile or grin when "Auntie", "Auntie Claire!", "But Auntie!", or any of its variations come from his lips.  It's just so endearing.

 

Same for Rollo.

 

That skull Claire found is Geillis, right? Riiiight?

 

Do

Bree and Willie ever meet?

[Petunia846]

GHScorpios,

no, regarding Geilis, yes regarding Bree and William, but not anytime soon.

[auntlada]

Yuck. Eww. Just gross. Just what was the point of the snake in the privy? Or worse yet, having Willie fall down in the shit? For giggles? Ha, ha, I'm laughing so hard! That was just soooo amusing and funny! NOT.

 

I think the point was Ian's realization of who Willie must be and

to set up an adversarial relationship between the two in later books (although I'm not sure that Willie remembers it).

[WatchrTina]

 

 

Yuck. Eww. Just gross. Just what was the point of the snake in the privy? Or worse yet, having Willie fall down in the shit? 

And my, the Ninth Earl of Ellesmere is a spoiled little brat.

I think you just answered your own question.

 

But yeah, eww.

 

Yes, the skull is Geillis (or at least that's always been my interpretation.)

 

And to answer your question

Yes, they meet. It's a poignant scene for many reasons.

Edited June 23, 2015 by WatchrTina

[auntlada]

If you mean the skull Claire finds in the forest after being thrown from the horse, it isn't Geillis. You will find out later in the book who it is. If you mean the skull that she holds for Joe Abernathy at the beginning of Voyager, then I have always believed it is. Those bones were found in a cave on Hispaniola (or the other island, I can't remember for sure which), which is where Geillis died.

[WatchrTina]

Oh right.  There were two skulls.  Yeah I assumed the skull Claire holds in Joe Abernathy's office is Geillis' skull.  I don't specifically recall the skull in this book but aren't we supposed to believe it belongs to

Otter Tooth? Isn't that the name of the ghostly Indian she sees in this book? (Though his name may not be revealed until a later book.)

Edited June 23, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

Huh. Well I know that she saw that the skull she found in this book had silver fillings and she and Jamie talked about that he or she could have also been a time traveler.

 

I totally don't remember the skull in Voyager. I may have skimmed over that part.  Though I do remember looking for it, as I'd read the book thread before picking up the book to read again.

 

I would have much rather have had Willie and Ian fighting and rolling around amidst the dirt and leaves than to have Ian accidentally cause Willie to fall down the privy.

 

That said, I did enjoy the conversation between Claire and Lord John about why he was there.

[WatchrTina]

 

Huh. Well I know that she saw that the skull she found in this book had silver fillings and she and Jamie talked about that he or she could have also been a time traveler.

Right.  

We find out later about a 20th century Native American who traveled back in time to try to change history. That is Otter Tooth.  I think we are supposed to believe that the skull is his and that it is his spirit that Claire sees in this book. Like Geillis, his attempt to change history fails.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ah. Thanks WatchrTina.  I thought the Native was a ghost from the past, heh. Like

not a time traveler, traveling to the past to change history, but an actual ghost from the past.

Does that make sense?

[nodorothyparker]

The privy incident is certainly gross but I never not laugh at Lord John's "What news from the underworld, Persephone?"

 

In the latest book, Ian tells William at one point that the privy and the aftermath is when he definitively recognized that William was Jamie's son because of the murder in his eyes and the expression on his face.  The fact that William has just proved that he, like Jamie, seems to have some weird knack for this sort of thing just happening to him probably only furthers the case.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The privy incident is certainly gross but I never not laugh at Lord John's "What news from the underworld, Persephone?"

 

In the latest book, Ian tells William at one point that the privy and the aftermath is when he definitively recognized that William was Jamie's son because of the murder in his eyes and the expression on his face.  The fact that William has just proved that he, like Jamie, seems to have some weird knack for this sort of thing just happening to him probably only furthers the case.

 

That line was amusing.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence in the spoiler. And it was pretty clear that Ian realized who Willie was during the privy scene, from Ian's reactions.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Me: So how are you this fine morn' [insert my real name here]

 

Me: Just fine, just fine.

 

Ahem.

 

This book is really moving fast. I'm 2/3ds done.  And here are my thoughts thus far:

 

It's so odd...when we're in Claire's POV and Jamie's POV, hell, even Lord John's POV, Jamie is such a, I don't know, more intelligent character? And when Bree sees him and describes him, and the way he talks when he first sees her, he comes off like a...a...Scotland version of a Southern RUBE. I dinna like it, ye ken?

And I loved Fergus at his "trial" and the way he insulted that liar in French. And just the way he flicked out the hanky with his left hand, which has the hook to wipe his face; the point being, that the lying liar who lies, said Fergus hit him, which would be impossible, since Fergus would have had to have hit him with his hook hand and not his bare knuckles. Because if Fergus had hit him with the hook, he'd have lost more than a tooth. Half his face--on the OTHER side, would have been gone; or rather, scarred.

And why does Gabaldon insist on having Murtagh, Ian and Young Ian be ugly? I'm ignoring all her "homely' descriptions for them, and superimposing Duncan and Steven for Murtagh and Ian, and Young Ian is a good looking teenager in MY mind.

 

So, the rape took place "off-screen."  Good to know that I didn't skim over it. Not like I was looking forward to reading it, but, her fight with Roger, then recognizing Claire's wedding ring...I'm wondering (and I don't feel like going back to check) if instead of the next night, Bree saw Bonnet that same night? Just based on how Lizzie described what Bree looked like--face all white and ghostly looking, no expression in her eyes, and she spoke very flatly. That tells me she's in shock, which would be if she were raped; and not at all like anger (totally justified) toward Roger for not telling her what he found.

But their whole relationship is stupid.  And I still am left confused by other posters' comments about how they weren't sure of each other until the end of the book, when it's right there, stated clearly, that they love each other and have told each other that they love each other.

And yes, despite? in spite of? how Bree described Jamie and how he sounds when he first meets her, I'm really enjoying the reunion.  And as much as I love Young Ian, I want to see more of Fergus.  And I'm glad that Gabaldon confirmed for me, that as an adult, Fergus sounds like a Scot after all these years with Jamie. We know from Dragonfly, that he doesna speak the Gaelic and all his dialogue was in French, but it's nice to know that he learned Gaelic and English and sounds like his Da.

I really do wish we could have gotten more of a reaction from Jenny, at least, to learning that that hosebeast was responsible for Claire being tried as a witch. I hope this is the last we see of her. And I did love how Bree brought it out, in front of everyone that was there, how that beast was responsible, and who she, Bree was--meaning that Claire was her mother.

But I'm left wondering why Bree  thought it was A-Okay to be walking in her "breeks" in 1769 Scotland!

[Athena]

As someone who doesn't love Bree, to be fair to her, meeting Jamie would be an intimating and built up experience considering she's an upper middle class American girl from two hundred years in the future. Jamie is very educated and definitely a nobleman, but he has also does look like a soldier and he is a farmer. His type of person is not one Bree would have grown up with, but she learns who he is in time. It's a great reunion scene though.

 

Wait, Young Ian is ugly? I must have blocked that because he is one of my favourite characters from the series. He seems to be really attractive and has a great personality. I was really bummed out when I read him going to Mohawks this book.

 

I think Gabaladon writes so much from Claire's (and her own) POV that Jamie is the only good looking man in the series! Ha.

[GHScorpiosRule]

As someone who doesn't love Bree, to be fair to her, meeting Jamie would be an intimating and built up experience considering she's an upper middle class American girl from two hundred years in the future. Jamie is very educated and definitely a nobleman, but he has also does look like a soldier and he is a farmer. His type of person is not one Bree would have grown up with, but she learns who he is in time. It's a great reunion scene though.

To play Devil's Advocate (or me own stuborrness, take yer pick!), so was Claire. Meaning she was from the future as well, and Jamie, even when I never got a sense of who he was as a character, didn't come off as well, what I said.

But the recognition and reunion made up for it.

 

Wait, Young Ian is ugly? I must have blocked that because he is one of my favourite characters from the series. He seems to be really attractive and has a great personality. I was really bummed out when I read him going to Mohawks this book.

YES! She keeps calling Young Ian "homely" and that the only good thing about him is his pretty brown eyes. WHATEVER, Gabaldon.

 

 

ETA: And it's not just Jamie that Gabaldon sees as the only good looking guy. There's Bonnet, that thieving rapist. She's described him as a good looking guy. We can't have an ugly man rape, now can we? [/sarcasm]

Edited June 24, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Dejana]

But their whole relationship is stupid.  And I still am left confused by other posters' comments about how they weren't sure of each other until the end of the book, when it's right there, stated clearly, that they love each other and have told each other that they love each other.

 

Before she went through the stones, Bree told Roger she's worried that she might fall out of love with him, the way Claire did with Frank, in time. Not due to time travel per se, but when Bree looked at old photos of Claire and Frank in the early days, they seemed very happy together and she wouldn't have imagined Claire eventually losing interest in Frank. I think Bree's age is also a part of it: she's in her early 20s, which is a typical marriageable age for a woman circa 1970, but a person can still grow and change a lot in that time. Claire married Frank at 18 and there was a decent age difference, and Roger's at least 30 by the time he and Bree are seriously involved (not to say that 30 is old, just that it's often a different phase/mindset than 22). My sense was that she loved him but worried about being too young for marriage.

 

There also might have been an element of Bree being annoyed with the latent chauvinism on Roger's part, like how he would only sleep with her after they were married because that was more respectable in his eyes, even as it was fine for him not to be a virgin. She was furious that he didn't tell her about the the death notice to protect her delicate feminine feelings (to Bree's mind, at least).

 

I think Bree in breeks was to show her modernity and mark her as a person out of place/time in a different way than Claire.

 

Young Ian was described as having a strong resemblance to his father, who was also described as not being particularly handsome. I never think of either as being ugly, per se, just sort of average in looks.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Dejana

[GHScorpiosRule]

Before she went through the stones, Bree told Roger she's worried that she might fall out of love with him, the way Claire did with Frank, in time. Not due to time travel per se, but when Bree looked at old photos of Claire and Frank in the early days, they seemed very happy together and she wouldn't have imagined Claire eventually losing interest in Frank. I think Bree's age is also a part of it: she's in her early 20s, which is a typical marriageable age for a woman circa 1970, but a person can still grow and change a lot in that time. Claire married Frank at 18 and there was a decent age difference, and Roger's at least 30 by the time he and Bree are seriously involved (not to say that 30 is old, just that it's often a different phase/mindset than 22). My sense was that she loved him but worried about being too young for marriage.

 

There also might have been an element of Bree being annoyed with the latent chauvinism on Roger's part, like how he would only sleep with her after they were married because that was more respectable in his eyes, even as it was fine for him not to be a virgin. She was furious that he didn't tell her about the the death notice to protect her delicate feminine feelings (to Bree's mind, at least).

 

I think Bree in breeks was to show her modernity and mark her as a person out of place/time in a different way than Claire.

 

Young Ian was described as having a strong resemblance to his father, who was also described as not being particularly handsome. I never think of either as being ugly, per se, just sort of average in looks.

 

 

I get all that. But even Bree told Roger that she didn't tell him she was traveling back and didn't want him to go with her because one, supposedly, she needed someone she loved to 'go back to' or someone she cared about. Like Claire had Frank.  And that's where Roger got her to admit, yes, she did love him.

 

But now I have to retract EVERYTHING I said about the I love you/not knowing how the other felt, because I just went back and read the entire first page of this thread, and the comments actually are about Bree not telling Jamie who Roger was, and that she was handfasted/married to him, and that she was raped.  Added to that how NO ONE would talk to each other.

 

But I maintain Roger and Bree's story is still stupid.

 

"Homely" as always been defined as ugly in the books I've read and show that have used that word to describe people.  She may have not come outright and said or written "ugly," but that's what she meant. At least, that's the impression I got.

 

And now I find myself disagreeing with my yaar*, chocolatetruffle regarding this comment:

 

 

 

But mostly, I missed Claire’s point of view.  It seemed like she wasn’t in this book as much as previous ones. 

 

Because the first 50% of the book was from Claire's POV; okay, 49.8%, the other 1.2% was Roger and Bree's.  I was moaning and had pretty much decided I wasn't going to get Jamie's POV at ALL, but then we I did! When he took Willie away when Lord John and Ian got struck with Measles. Or as Ian says "The Measle." in his letter to Jenny.

 

*Hindi word for pal/buddy/mate

Edited June 24, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[chocolatetruffle]

 

And now I find myself disagreeing with my yaar*, chocolatetruffle regarding this comment:

 

 

 

 

Because the first 50% of the book was from Claire's POV; okay, 49.8%, the other 1.2% was Roger and Bree's.  I was moaning and had pretty much decided I wasn't going to get Jamie's POV at ALL, but then we I did! When he took Willie away when Lord John and Ian got struck with Measles. Or as Ian says "The Measle." in his letter to Jenny.

 

*Hindi word for pal/buddy/mate

 

Ha! That's perfectly O.K.  I think that by the time I had gotten through all the shenanigans in the back half I had forgotten that there was a lot of Claire in the first half.  I also had forgotten that this is where we meet the awesome Jocasta Mackenzie Cameron for the first time.

 

Re: Bree in breeks.  I believe (I should go back and check, but I'm too lazy) that while contemplating her situation on the road to Lallybroch she says to herself that the breeks were to deter any brigands who might attack a woman alone, because from a distance at least, they would think she was a man (remember she's very tall).  She had tried to hide her hair under a hat and her feminine figure under a coat, but she knew that up close, she wouldn't be able to fool anyone.  Then when she meets young Jamie, he at first believes she is a man, until he gets a good look at her.  Actually, their greeting is one of my favorites moments of the book.

 

And DG can call Ian and wee Ian homely all she wants, in my head they are beautiful and warm and adorable.

 

ETA:  oh, and let's not forget that Bree is meeting her biological father (a mythic figure in her mind thanks to Claire) for FIRST TIME.  That's got to cause a person to have all kinds of mixed emotions.  Then add to that she is springing this surprise on him and she wants desperately for him to like/love her, well, I see her observation as a defense mechanism to protect herself from being disappointed if he's cool to her or flat out rejects her.

Edited June 24, 2015 by chocolatetruffle

[Dejana]

"Homely" as always been defined as ugly in the books I've read and show that have used that word to describe people.  She may have not come outright and said or written "ugly," but that's what she meant. At least, that's the impression I got.

 

I believe that in British parlance, "homely" leans more to meaning plain/ordinary yet pleasant, but it's said more about places rather than  people. In the US, it does mean ugly, when said about a person's looks. Gabaldon is an American writer, but these characters are from Scotland and England... If the TV show gets a season 3 or 4, Young Ian's looks will probably be upgraded, as it tends to happen with heroic characters in screen adaptations.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Dejana

[chocolatetruffle]

And Steven Cree is not homely by any stretch of the imagination, so even though they have made him look "plain" next to Jamie, he's still got that killer smile and genuine warmth that makes you want to just hug the guy.  No wonder Jenny is constantly pregnant :-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

And while Tobias Menzies is attractive, he's not as attractive as Gabaldon describes Frank to be.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I'm looking forward to who they cast as Young-"But Auntie-Claire!"Ian and a grown up Fergus.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Holy Highlanders, Batman! Jamie really did pulverize Roger.  Stupid Lizzie.

 

And oh ewww! Yuck, blech, ptooey.  Although Brianna's rape took place "off-screen", it didn't, because it was revealed when Bree told Claire about it. Gross. Yuck. Ugh.

 

And having Jamie get rough with Bree to prove her rape wasn't her fault? Really, Gabaldon? I'm not even going to get into the conversation that led up to it, or the words exchanged. Or what I felt toward Bree when she threw his mother's dying in childbirth in his face. Or calling him a "fucking bastard."

 

And can someone explain to me, like I'm 10, why Bree doesn't want Jamie to know the name of the man who raped her? I haven't gotten there yet, and so I don't know, if Claire puts the ring Frank gave her back on. Last I read, Claire was keeping it in her pocket.  But if she does, how will she explain how she got it back?

 

I should be finished with this book by tonight.  I think.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Me: So, how are you doing today, [insert my real name here again]

 

Me:  Now that I've FINALLY fixed all the errors for the brief we're supposed to file today, which I should have gotten two days ago, so I wouldn't feel the crunch? Just dandy. So I think I'll post my thoughts on Drums, which I didn't finish last night, but I'm at 90% so I'll definitely be done tonight.

 

Ahem

 

So, here we go.  And I apologize if anything doesn't make sense--it's my anger toward Bree.

 

when Bree (that idiot and now I hate her, I don't care that she was raped. This is all HER FAULT (not her rape), and her blaming Jamie and wishing she'd never met him, calling him a bastard again, FAILING to understand that she's NOT in the 20th century! And poor Jamie, thinking Claire holds him responsible for the rape, and is angry with him--ARGH, Three's Company comparison is SO apt with those two!) starts to describe Roger, and then draws him, both Young Ian and Jamie realize who he beat up, and he confesses to both and then says he didn't kill him, but gave him away to the Iroquois. And to top if off, she BLACKMAILS Lord John?

That said, it was wrong of Jamie to call Bree a wanton. Because we know women back then, good women, let men they wanted, know how they felt. I suppose Geneva and that hosebeast are bad examples, because those two, well, never mind.

I've just read up to the part where Ian "let" himself be adopted by the Mohawks. Despite him saying he did it, I don't think he really had a choice. Even if a positive is that he'll be with Emily. 

And maybe it's my bias from having seen The Last of the Mohicans and totally remembering/picturing when they poked, stabbed, and cludgeled my poor Nathaniel's head at the end, when he went to save Cora and Alice, but I really, really HATE the Mohawks. Those ratbastards, when they did the same thing to Roger.

I am TOTALLY TEAM JAMIE with respect to his anger toward Roger and yes, Bree. And Roger, who claims to love Bree, "doesn't KNOW" if he can accept a baby that might not be his? UGH. I dinna care that his mindset is that from the '60s; he was a prude from the get go; I would think by this time, knowing she loved him, didn't set Jamie on him...but whatever.

And Bree is SO STUPID. Talking, talking, talking to Bonnet while he's in jail. That whole scene is just ridiculous, though I know

that she eventually shoots him in the balls, but doesn't kill him. How does he die? by the Noose?

 

And color me shocked, shocked that Murchison is behind all that and Bonnet's partner. What was Gabaldon trying to do? Still give us Black Jack imitations? (that's sarcasm re Murchison's involvement if it wasna clear).

But I like Roger MORE than I do Bree. Actually, I don't Like Bree. AT.ALL. Unless/Until she asks Jamie for forgiveness or says she's sorry, she's on my SHIT LIST.

 

Boy. I feel much better for having getting that off my chest.

 

Whisky, anyone?

 

ETA: great. Gabaldon insists on giving us ME

A copycat in Fucking Bonnet.

Edited June 26, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Petunia846]

I just love how animated you're getting about this one. I vaguely remember a lot of eye rolling and sighing from when I was reading the book. It's not the best.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I found, actually, that this book moved quickly for me.

 

Finished it Friday night and overall, aside from Bree's STUPIDITY and ridiculousness, rudeness, ungratefulness, self-centeredness, I like this one.

 

Oh, and I really, and I mean really did not need to read and thus put into my brain, the description of how Claire helped Bree deliver her baby, but especially the part about the afterbirth. I really didn't.

 

And how was Roger wanting to marry Bree be about obligation when he's loved her for so long? Like the separation and her being pregnant with possibly her rapist's child would erase that love? Stupid, stupid, idiot.

[WatchrTina]

 

overall, aside from Bree's STUPIDITY and ridiculousness, rudeness, ungratefulness, self-centeredness, I like this one.

LOL.

 

"But aside from all that, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

 

Hey GHScorpiosRule, you know how Jamie matures over the course of the 4 books you've read?  Have faith that Bree IS her father's daughter and will improve over time.  Which is not to say that Jamie is perfect -- especially in this book.  I just love the scene where Roger and Jamie finally have to step outside and hit each other.  I hope Roger landed some really good blows during that fight.

[lianau]

 

And how was Roger wanting to marry Bree be about obligation when he's loved her for so long? Like the separation and her being pregnant with possibly her rapist's child would erase that love? Stupid, stupid, idiot.

Brianna is a fish out of water and confused out of her mind. And I found it perfectly normal for her to be concerned about Roger , love and obligation . She grew up thinking her parents (Claire and Frank) had a good  marriage only to realize it wasn't the case. And then seeing for herself the difference while observing Claire and Jamie . She said it herself , she could have lived with obligation if she'd never seen the other . Now she 's scared  that the baby will trap her and Roger in marriage of obligation the same way she  sort of trapped Frank and Claire in theirs (even though that's up for debate , but Bree is pretty much all  black and white at this point) . And  being out of her own  time , with pregnancy/new baby hormones running through her veins ... it takes a while (and Rogers input)  for her to understand that love and obligation aren't mutually  exclusive . 

[GHScorpiosRule]

No argument that Brianna is a fish out of water; So is Roger. But her attitude toward him, and thinking that he would only want to marry her out of obligation ONLY is what I have an issue with, because it's stupid. As I've said up thread, they both love each other. They've told each other that they love each other.

 

This was all PURE contrivance that is all Gabaldon's doing. Which started with the fight that led to there separation.  Roger wanted to tell her in person.  The fact that he came after her through the stones should have clued her in about his feelings. All of this, has nothing to do with both of them being fish out of water; especially considering, at least to me, the time period they came from.

 

And now on to a major nitpick of how others see Bree. I mean, I don't understand why Gabaldon describes her as if she's got the proportions of the She-Hulk, down to the mannish hands. I find it ridiculous. Brooke Shields is also six feet tall, and I would never consider her mannish and her hands are decidedly feminine looking.

[CatMack]

The whole Roger/Jamie/rape fiasco is so stupidly plotted I can't really be mad at any of the characters about it.  It's 100% terrible, contrived writing.

 

As for the anger at her describing Ian and young Ian as homely...why is that a thing to get upset about?  Are characters only worthwhile if they're attractive?  

[Andorra]

I'm halfway through the book an I must admit, the whole Roger/Bree story is drivng me nuts.They just married and now fought and I know fro spoilers, that the worst is yet to come, but they're already gettg on my nerves so much!

 

Urgh...