TWD Women Who's the bigger threat: Walkers or Writers?

[kj4ever]

Yeah, but how is she a prop for Rick when we have, and he has, seen her three whole times for a sum of a few minutes? And when they are nothing more than friendly aquaintances?

I can see fearing she might become a prop, but at this point there's nothing to be propped.

I totally agree!  I wonder how some people would see this character if the media hadn't been all "Meet the new Mrs. Rick Grimes!"  Would they think it was just another new character, or would they be all woman-talk-to-Rick-woman-is-bad!

[Caelicola]

From what little we've been shown of Jessie, I actually really like her. She immediately understood that Rick was having some real trouble adjusting to a somewhat regular life, she immediately got why he freaked out when Carl and Judith were out of his sight for one minute and took him to them right away, without judgement, she knew what to tell him at the party to make him see the situation as less disquieting and creepy.

She's nice, and kind, and clearly understands, on some level, PTSD; I don't know if it will evolve in a squicky adultery storyline, or an abused wife scenario, or whatever else, but so far what a lot of people has seen as blandness I mainly saw as prettiness and cleanliness of body and spirit, and I understand why Rick would be attracted to that. She's like an oasis of loveliness after years spent wandering through a broken, dirty desert.

That said, there's no doubt in my mind that, if it came down to choosing between her and anyone of his family (except FPP, who I don't think is part of the family just yet), Rick would personally feed her to walkers.

[nodorothyparker]

I wonder how some people would see this character if the media hadn't been all "Meet the new Mrs. Rick Grimes!"  Would they think it was just another new character, or would they be all woman-talk-to-Rick-woman-is-bad!

 

I've wondered this too because right now I don't feel like we've seen enough of anything to really get that worked up about.  Had she just been another new character we just met like Olivia, what would we be saying about her?  She's generically nice and clearly making an effort to be empathetic, even if some if it like her speech at the party is coming across as kind of hamfisted.  She has two kids, gives out haircuts when she's so inclined, and apparently enough time on her hands to make owl sculptures.

 

Rick's reaction to her at the end of this last episode is more than a little concerning, but that's about Rick and his ongoing wheel of insanity.

[chlban]

Well, I'm personally going to give Jessie more than 15 minutes of screen time before I write her off as anything.  

As a newbie to the series, I am kind of shocked at the reaction to Jessie. I got most of my viewing in, by ways of a marathon, so I may not have attached the way others have, that have been in from the start, but I find it interesting. Although the shows are nothing alike, the reaction seems a bit like what we Mad Men long term fans went through when Don married Megan.  Since I am an absolute Megan Hater, I am not passing judgment on any fans that are put off by Jessie, but I just don't have a strong reaction to her one way or the other.

 

Even in watching via marathon I had a really solid Lori hate by the time she met her end, so the bar is really low, IMO.  But I am open to see where the story line leads and go from there.

 

I sort of feel like they are throwing in a character that we probably aren't going to care much about in order for the dramatic response from Rick when she somehow becomes Zombie chow.  I wish the zombies would do a "cross over" and get rid of Megan for us.      

[tennisgurl]

I wonder how much of the intense reaction to Jessie is to her right now, or how people see she will be used later. I admit, my first reaction to her was "oh good lord, already a love interest? Come on! We ll know she`s zombie chow for Rick to angst about", but that really wasn't fair. If I don't look at her as a possible love interest, or even a future main character, she seems just fine. Not super exciting, but a nice enough person.

 

Add to that, the fact that female characters are, unfortunately, very strongly criticized, especially when they are introduced as a possible romance for the main character. If shes not a badass, shes a wimp. If shes too much of a badass, shes a Mary Sue. Its hard to win, and I admit I can be just as guilty about quickly judging characters as anyone else.

 

I`ll give her a few more episodes before I dub her Lori 2.0, is what I mean.  

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I wonder how much of the intense reaction to Jessie is to her right now, or how people see she will be used later. I admit, my first reaction to her was "oh good lord, already a love interest? Come on! We ll know she`s zombie chow for Rick to angst about", but that really wasn't fair. If I don't look at her as a possible love interest, or even a future main character, she seems just fine. Not super exciting, but a nice enough person.

 

Add to that, the fact that female characters are, unfortunately, very strongly criticized, especially when they are introduced as a possible romance for the main character. If shes not a badass, shes a wimp. If shes too much of a badass, shes a Mary Sue. Its hard to win, and I admit I can be just as guilty about quickly judging characters as anyone else.

 

I`ll give her a few more episodes before I dub her Lori 2.0, is what I mean.  

 

I don't read the comics and do my best to avoid spoilers, so the reason I dislike all the Jessie "hate" is because how can you feel so strongly against someone who might not even survive past this seasons' finale??

 

(I really probably should read the comics, but I love the feeling of not having background and not really knowing for sure what to expect next or soon, when watching the show.  And I do sometimes think it'd be nice to know, but that's the beauty of it;  waiting to see if my guesses are right or totally wrong.)

Edited March 11, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Pete Martell]

Add to that, the fact that female characters are, unfortunately, very strongly criticized, especially when they are introduced as a possible romance for the main character. If shes not a badass, shes a wimp. If shes too much of a badass, shes a Mary Sue. Its hard to win, and I admit I can be just as guilty about quickly judging characters as anyone else.

 

One of the problems is that viewers have little choice but to make a snap judgment on Jessie, because of how she's been sold. She's gotten heavy media attention. She got the "mystery guest" treatment on Talking Dead, which is pretty big. We've heard the actress say she should be in the central role that Andrea has in the comics (the lead female and one of the most popular characters in the comics for its entire run). Those are huge expectations. 

 

When we're getting that, it's difficult to just wait and see, because they aren't inviting us to wait and see, they're inviting us to be impressed and delighted.

[BrokenRemote]

Alexandra Breckenridge said she ought to have the central role in the show? When and where was this?

[Iguessnot]

I don't have much of any impression of Jessie right now, except as another member noted, that she seems to be in Rick's space too much. However my dislike of the kiss is on Rick's shoulders. He's the one that overstepped the boundaries.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Maybe it makes me a "head in the sand" type of entertainment viewing person, but this is why I stay away from the social media aspect [ie, Twitter/Facebook or other 'direct access' to cast/crew] of shows/actors.  And also I do my best to avoid spoilerish (towards future eps or future storylines) reviews and interviews.  I don't believe we can take a lot of things said as "written in stone" 110% factual.  For one thing, I would believe that most these people are under contract to not give away too many big or obvious spoilers, be it in interviews/guest appearances on talk shows, etc.

 

I thought I remembered it mentioned AB wished her character would become the 'Andrea' of the comics.  That's not exactly demanding anything;  she just wants her character to take on a bigger role and/or more important part of a good successful venture.   I'd be unhappy and questioning her casting if she answered interview questions with answers like "Yeah... I actually think they should reduce my screen time.  I have other things to do.  I could make even briefer appearances than usual, only once per every few eps as I grace them with a cameo, just to basically 'say hi.".

Edited March 11, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Pete Martell]

Maybe it makes me a "head in the sand" type of entertainment viewing person, but this is why I stay away from the social media aspect [ie, Twitter/Facebook or other 'direct access' to cast/crew] of shows/actors.  And also I do my best to avoid spoilerish (towards future eps or future storylines) reviews and interviews.  I don't believe we can take a lot of things said as "written in stone" 110% factual.  For one thing, I would believe that most these people are under contract to not give away too many big or obvious spoilers, be it in interviews/guest appearances on talk shows, etc.

 

I thought I remembered it mentioned AB wished her character would become the 'Andrea' of the comics.  That's not exactly demanding anything;  she just wants her character to take on a bigger role and/or more important part of a good successful venture.   I'd be unhappy and questioning her casting if she answered interview questions with answers like "Yeah... I actually think they should reduce my screen time.  I have other things to do.  I could make even briefer appearances than usual, only once per every few eps as I grace them with a cameo, just to basically 'say hi.".

 

I don't think anyone said AB "demanded" she be given a big role, but saying she wished Jessie would be Andrea (the lead female of the comic series) means she's putting that line of thinking out there. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's one of the reasons why some fans haven't been able to just wait and see.

 

I can see where one could avoid all social media, all interviews, all behind the scenes features, and every moment of Talking Dead, but there are many people who don't. And when a new actress is treated as an extremely important and potentially game-changing creation in a slew of press interviews, behind the scenes features, and on Talking Dead, then it's not easy for people to just say, "She's only been in a few scenes. I have no right to judge."

 

The show wants viewers to judge. The show wants viewers to have an opinion of her. And as a result, many viewers do. It's just that in some cases, it's not necessarily the one the show may have anticipated.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Pete Martell

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I do agree with the thinking that they [whoever 'they' are] shouldn't have (immediately) called Jessie "the new Mrs Rick Grimes".  That's either a leak of a major spoiler or if not, of course its going to make people think that's what Show's tptb endgame is (while JA still lives on TWD, that is).

[Luckylyn]

I think the writers made three mistakes with Jessie's introduction.  Rick answering the door shirtless fresh from the shower and her giving him the haircut screamed love interest first meet.   The other mistake is that so far her only significant interactions have been with Rick, and they really should have let her interact with the others too because it makes her seems as only purpose is to be an appendage to Rick's story.  The third mistake and the one that bothers me most is that's she's married.   If she wasn't married I'd have more of a wait and see attitude.   I just hated the Rick/Lori/Shane stuff so much and that's affecting my opinion of a possible Rick/Jessie/Dr. Pete triangle.

 

Jessie as a character doesn't bug me.  I haven't seen enough of her to like or dislike her.  The writers chose to showcase her through Rick's eyes exclusively so far which I think limits her character.    If they intend her to be long term, than they have to let her have interactions with others, form platonic bonds, and let the audience get to know her as a person and not just the love interest.

 

Another issue I have is the lack of female friendships.  The episode where Sasha got to interact with both Michonne and Maggie was great because female friendships don't seem to get showcased that much.   Carol's closest bonds have been with Daryl, Rick, and Tyreese.   I think Andrea was the last woman she had one on one interactions with.   I'm not counting Carol's scenes with Alexandrian women because she's scamming them and no true bonds have developed.  Have Carol and Michonne ever even spoken to each other on screen?  I've been dying for those two to have any sort of conversation.

[kj4ever]

I do agree with the thinking that they [whoever 'they' are] shouldn't have (immediately) called Jessie "the new Mrs Rick Grimes".  That's either a leak of a major spoiler or if not, of course its going to make people think that's what Show's tptb endgame is (while JA still lives on TWD, that is).

It was all over the web after her first appearance.  Lots and lots of articles asking if she was the new Mrs.  I didn't even think about them in a romantic way until I saw that.  I just thought she was a nice lady who volunteered to cut his hair because he said they were just trying to clean up.

[ghoulina]

See, I watch TD and I follow a few things on FB, but I never saw anything calling her the New Mrs. Grimes. I don't pay a ton of attention to media and fan crap, mostly because comic readers are always posting spoilers. And I am very very careful to avoid spoilers. So was it just news outlets dubbing her the New Mrs. Grimes, or was that something put out by the network? Unless AMC themselves, or someone working on the show says something, I don't really pay it any mind. 

 

But, with none of that coloring my view, I can see just from the show that they're possibly paving the way for Jessie to be a new love interest for him. But I could also see it being just a little lust, a little flirtation, that is never seen through. She could die by the end of this season. She could be scared of her husband and never let anything happen.  I am with those who think we need more time before we paint her into any corners. 

[Nashville]

It was all over the web after her first appearance.  Lots and lots of articles asking if she was the new Mrs.  I didn't even think about them in a romantic way until I saw that.  I just thought she was a nice lady who volunteered to cut his hair because he said they were just trying to clean up.

Total agreement. Jessie was a hair stylist pre-ZA, and Rick looked like neglected shrubbery.

Most stylists I know would look upon his tangled mess as equal parts affront/challenge.

[Ocean Chick]

Have Carol and Michonne ever even spoken to each other on screen?  I've been dying for those two to have any sort of conversation.

 

 

They've had a couple of hugs in the background since Terminus.  And they've had a few scenes around campfires with Rick and Daryl, I believe.  Nothing of significance though.

[BrokenRemote]

Yes the "new Mrs Grimes" stuff was all over the web, but every article I read said they were basing the story off comic book spoilers. I never saw anyone from the show quoted. So I don't think it's fair to blame the show for those. The show has deviated a fair bit from the books. That's why I stand by my "wait and see" stance.

Edited March 12, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[editorgrrl]

TPTB have a long history of viewing their characters way differently than we the viewers. The character page for Lori begins:

Lori is Rick’s wife and the emotional center of the group of survivors, fighting to maintain their decency and rituals. “We’re providing stability,” Lori tells Andrea, summing up her M.O. “Trying to build a way of life worth living.”

Edited March 15, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Pete Martell]

I guess they aren't even trying to write Jessie as a character beyond the battered wife in need of saving? One scene in the entire episode - all about Rick (once again) - as she just stands there awkwardly prattling on. 

 

Three episodes now where her story is a focal point and she's barely an afterthought. 

 

The owl statue gets more prominence.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I guess they aren't even trying to write Jessie as a character beyond the battered wife in need of saving? One scene in the entire episode - all about Rick (once again) - as she just stands there awkwardly prattling on. 

 

Three episodes now where her story is a focal point and she's barely an afterthought. 

 

The owl statue gets more prominence.

 

Sadly, I agree.

 

I don't get it.  Why did they push this on us so fast?  Why couldn't they be friends that bonded over Judith first?  Then it comes out that Pete is hurting her??  Then either CDB 'takes care' of her problem or he dies in some other 'righteous' way, and then Rick/Jessie could develop in the future. 

 

Instead, this way makes it look like their both nothing more than homewreckers, even if her home life is horrible.  Hard to root for either character, as the storyline stands right now.

Edited March 16, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Pete Martell]

Sadly, I agree.

 

I don't get it.  Why did they push this on us so fast?  Why couldn't they be friends that bonded over Judith first?  Then it comes out that Pete is hurting her??  Then either CDB 'takes care' of her problem or he dies in some other 'righteous' way, and then Rick/Jessie could develop in the future. 

 

Instead, this way makes it look like their both nothing more than homewreckers, even if her home life is horrible.  Hard to root for either character, as the storyline stands right now.

 

It's not even that I see her as a homewrecker, as she hasn't really done anything...it's just that she has literally done nothing for me to care about her. I've heard many fans over the years of many shows call a character a potted plant, but I've never fully understood it until now. I'm supposed to adore her and want her to be with Rick 5ever, or whatever, and she just randomly appears for Rick to leer at like Christie Brinkley in National Lampoon's Vacation. She's being abused terribly by her husband, so much so that he has to die now, and even then, she just shows up to wear pseudo-sexy tank tops and get Rick's motor running.

 

Even Christie at least got a nice car. 

 

(NSFW)

 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Caelicola]

Wow, Pete Martell, it really fascinates me how radically different our interpretation of the same material can be.

It's very possible, if not actually likely, that I'll end up being proven dramatically, spectacularly wrong, given this show's track record with romantic entanglements, but I'm not trying to make any predictions, I'm just going by what I've gotten from the show so far, and I really didn't get the romance for the ages thing AT ALL. I don't think we're supposed to adore her, or to want her with Rick for ever and ever, I think we're supposed to see her as a very pretty girl who made Rick go "oh, right, I have a dick, I had forgotten all about that". Am I going to be very wrong? Likely, to be honest.

We're just on completely different pages about the whole thing, and that is so interesting to me (way more interesting than the actual plot in the show!).

I don't mean to antagonize you, but what is it that makes you think the point of Jessie's plot and character is to see her as the perfect romantic match for Rick? I really, really don't see that, so I'm super curious to know why you do.

I'm actually interested in Carol's place in all this, because I'm not sure how much of her intervention is a former abused woman wanting to save another woman from abuse and how much is Ruthless!Action!Hero! Carol willing to do whatever it takes to eliminate an unpredictable, potentially dangerous variable before it affects her group. In either case, she might be prone to jump the gun, so to speak, and we might end up finding out the situation is actually less sinister than she thinks. I don't know, that's the only part of that particular plotline that really interests me, because everything else I just see as a mutual, somewhat inconvenient fancy between two attractive adults, just really not a big deal to me at all.

[Pete Martell]

I don't mean to antagonize you, but what is it that makes you think the point of Jessie's plot and character is to see her as the perfect romantic match for Rick?

 

The press focus and the Talking Dead focus, including the comments the actress herself made. The need to make sure we see her almost solely through Rick's eyes, complete with the "moment" and "connection" of him kissing her and watching her from afar.

 

Nothing about his behavior suggests to me that she just gets him hard. He has her on a pedestal and needs to "save" her, which was now ramped up through Carol's fears.

 

I've never gotten the impression from these three episodes that Jessie herself has any opinion, any voice, or any life of her own. It's all about what suits Rick and his storyline. If this happens again next week I'm going to start assuming we're deliberately being kept from her and she's supposed to just be an object, a blank canvas. If so, then it's just not something I'm all that interested in seeing, mostly because I think the development has been poor.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm not yet convinced I'm supposed to feel anything about Jessie other than noting that Rick seems to be projecting something a little inappropriate on her.  At least not from the show itself.  Yes, the actress herself seems to be pushing her character and her "amazing connection" with Rick and the press is going along with it, but it's hardly surprising that a new actress on a ratings monster with a crowded cast would be trying to convince us of her specialness rather than saying "yeah, I'm playing this new character and she's not terribly defined yet.  She's actually pretty bland."

 

I am a little concerned at this point that they seem to be going full steam ahead with an abused wife story that doesn't seem to be at all about the wife.  We saw Carol's perspective as she started filling in the blanks.  We saw Sam's panic as he realized he'd given away his secret without actually saying it.  We saw Pete brusquely shutting the door in Carol's face when she started asking questions.  We saw Rick sniffing around and then reacting to Carol's pronouncement.  What we didn't see was Jessie herself beyond one brief scene with her fretting about a damn owl sculpture.  It's a story about her that doesn't seem to require her at all.

[Pete Martell]

If it were the actress going on Twitter frenzies, I would agree it's just her, but the interviews and the Talking Dead promotion is what makes me feel that the show is also pushing it. And that's where I start to get really annoyed, because they are doing nothing (so far, anyway) to establish Jessie as a character. Mrs. Morales in the first season had more characterization than this. It's one of the most base portrayals of a woman that I can remember seeing on any TV show, especially if they do go forward with this abuse storyline with her barely actually being a part of it. 

[kj4ever]

Wow, Pete Martell, it really fascinates me how radically different our interpretation of the same material can be.

It's very possible, if not actually likely, that I'll end up being proven dramatically, spectacularly wrong, given this show's track record with romantic entanglements, but I'm not trying to make any predictions, I'm just going by what I've gotten from the show so far, and I really didn't get the romance for the ages thing AT ALL. I don't think we're supposed to adore her, or to want her with Rick for ever and ever, I think we're supposed to see her as a very pretty girl who made Rick go "oh, right, I have a dick, I had forgotten all about that". Am I going to be very wrong? Likely, to be honest.

We're just on completely different pages about the whole thing, and that is so interesting to me (way more interesting than the actual plot in the show!).

I don't mean to antagonize you, but what is it that makes you think the point of Jessie's plot and character is to see her as the perfect romantic match for Rick? I really, really don't see that, so I'm super curious to know why you do.

I'm actually interested in Carol's place in all this, because I'm not sure how much of her intervention is a former abused woman wanting to save another woman from abuse and how much is Ruthless!Action!Hero! Carol willing to do whatever it takes to eliminate an unpredictable, potentially dangerous variable before it affects her group. In either case, she might be prone to jump the gun, so to speak, and we might end up finding out the situation is actually less sinister than she thinks. I don't know, that's the only part of that particular plotline that really interests me, because everything else I just see as a mutual, somewhat inconvenient fancy between two attractive adults, just really not a big deal to me at all.

Count me in, I don't get it.  I really like her character so far.  She's nice and compassionate.  She took the time to make sure Carl got to know some kids his own age.  Not everyone has to be a bad ass to be a good character, and I don't understand where people think that they are supposed to be this love for all time?  I must be watching a different show, or perhaps haters gonna hate the pretty blonde.

[Pete Martell]

Count me in, I don't get it.  I really like her character so far.  She's nice and compassionate.  She took the time to make sure Carl got to know some kids his own age.  Not everyone has to be a bad ass to be a good character, and I don't understand where people think that they are supposed to be this love for all time?  I must be watching a different show, or perhaps haters gonna hate the pretty blonde.

 

In my case, it has nothing to do with her not being a bad ass, or being blonde. I notice that there's this idea that if people dislike this storyline or the writing for Jessie, it's often boiled down to being about jealousy, or being about somehow having a prejudice against a woman who isn't kicking ass. I liked Beth just fine, even before they had her killing walkers, because, even with weak writing or nonexistent writing, I thought she still had a few moments here and there that showed her in her own light and hinted at who she was. And she was a paper-thin supporting character at that point, not thrust into the middle of what is supposed to be an epic storyline with the show's leading man.

 

To me, the way that people who don't like this storyline always need to explain themselves just shows how much of a focus she and the storyline have had and how big it's been hyped as something important. 

 

I don't need cool walker kills. I don't need her to dye her hair. What I need is a basic characterization. What I need is to not have an entire episode where everyone in her life is talking about her, putting claims on her, and plotting to kill a man for her, while she has one bizarre, awkward scene chatting about an owl statue. 

 

I don't think that's asking a lot.

[Caelicola]

 

To me, the way that people who don't like this storyline always need to explain themselves just shows how much of a focus she and the storyline have had and how big it's been hyped as something important. 

...it's kinda the opposite, in my case? Like, what I'm genuinely baffled about is how what I saw as almost innocent, pretty irrelevant flirting got to others as something important, to the point of making them dislike a character they liked through machetes to the head, banishments, jugular bites, running over of cops and whatnot.

(And I'm not referring pointedly to you, or judging; I liked Rick pretty much since day 1, and never truly stopped, so I have no problem at all with accepting and even enjoying his batshittery; I've just seen a few Rick fans absolutely outraged by this storyline, and I just don't get it, and that titillates me).

 

Sorry, I wandered a bit off-topic.

To keep it about women and this show: it is bothersome and a bit worrying that so far she hasn't had a voice in the telling of her own story, and I can only hope we'll get to see her being an actual character.

They've done ok by some of the women, unfortunately not all of them, and I hope that getting Carol involved in her storyline will lend her a bit of complexity and just care from the writers, since I think Carol -and to a lesser extent Michonne- is the woman the writers care the most about.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Caelicola

[Pete Martell]

...it's kinda the opposite, in my case? Like, what I'm genuinely baffled about is how what I saw as almost innocent, pretty irrelevant flirting got to others as something important, to the point of making them dislike a character they liked through machetes to the head, banishments, jugular bites, running over of cops and whatnot.

(And I'm not referring pointedly to you, or judging; I liked Rick pretty much since day 1, and never truly stopped, so I have no problem at all with accepting and even enjoying his batshittery; I've just seen a few Rick fans absolutely outraged by this storyline, and I just don't get it, and that titillates me).

 

Speaking as a Rick fan, I'm very put off by the storyline because I think there's a huge leap from the brutal, damaged, dark Rick we saw in the first 3/4 of this season to the Rick who is creepy and obsessive with a woman and whose entire identity is wrapped up in a woman. I don't recognize Rick as a character anymore, and that makes it difficult for me as a viewer, because I literally stare at the screen during his scenes and have no idea who he is. It's not even about Rick being a precious woobie who wouldn't do wrong. I think he would do wrong. I think he has. I just don't think he would be this. 

 

Making it worse is that the storyline is so vague and confused, shoehorning in an abuse element that seems to involve everyone but the woman being abused, perhaps to tell Rick and/or us that it's fine to act the way he's acting, because she needs to be saved. So whatever point this story had is diluted even further. This has been Rick's main story for 2-3 episodes, at a time when the show is undergoing huge changes. It's essentially removed him from every relationship that makes him interesting as a character, and last night in particular, stopped the episode dead for me every time it appeared onscreen.

 

There's a lot of fan talk about "hating" Jessie and why do people "hate" Jessie. And yes, some fans do hate Jessie, but - I'll be honest with you. I did expect to hate Jessie. I expected to resent her for coming in and taking away airtime from my favorites, and to hate the idea that she was the ideal while Michonne was shipped off to supporting character status.

 

Instead of hating her, I just don't feel anything. In some ways I pity her, because every man in her life treats her as an object, and even Carol sees her as a mirror, and an attempt to heal her past. She is a woman who has no one in her corner, because no one actually wants to know her, not their idea of her. 

 

It's sad. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Caelicola]

I think I'm gonna take it to the Rick thread, if you don't mind and are interested in continuing the conversation? Because I don't want talk of a male character to hijack the thread about wd women...it happens enough on the show itself :)

[Pete Martell]

If the mods need to move my post there, I totally understand, and apologize. Unfortunately I can't discuss her story because I don't feel she has one, so it became about Rick. 

[Caelicola]

Oh, no, I wasn't saying that your post was off-topic and should therefore be moved, just that I was gonna answer your points about Rick's storyline in Rick's thread, as to not be off-topic myself!

[kj4ever]

Speaking as a Rick fan, I'm very put off by the storyline because I think there's a huge leap from the brutal, damaged, dark Rick we saw in the first 3/4 of this season to the Rick who is creepy and obsessive with a woman and whose entire identity is wrapped up in a woman. I don't recognize Rick as a character anymore, and that makes it difficult for me as a viewer, because I literally stare at the screen during his scenes and have no idea who he is. It's not even about Rick being a precious woobie who wouldn't do wrong. I think he would do wrong. I think he has. I just don't think he would be this. 

 

Making it worse is that the storyline is so vague and confused, shoehorning in an abuse element that seems to involve everyone but the woman being abused, perhaps to tell Rick and/or us that it's fine to act the way he's acting, because she needs to be saved. So whatever point this story had is diluted even further. This has been Rick's main story for 2-3 episodes, at a time when the show is undergoing huge changes. It's essentially removed him from every relationship that makes him interesting as a character, and last night in particular, stopped the episode dead for me every time it appeared onscreen.

 

There's a lot of fan talk about "hating" Jessie and why do people "hate" Jessie. And yes, some fans do hate Jessie, but - I'll be honest with you. I did expect to hate Jessie. I expected to resent her for coming in and taking away airtime from my favorites, and to hate the idea that she was the ideal while Michonne was shipped off to supporting character status.

 

Instead of hating her, I just don't feel anything. In some ways I pity her, because every man in her life treats her as an object, and even Carol sees her as a mirror, and an attempt to heal her past. She is a woman who has no one in her corner, because no one actually wants to know her, not their idea of her. 

 

It's sad. 

The only way Michonne would be shipped off to supporting character status would be is if she did get with Rick, which is why I oppose Richonne with ever fiber of my being.  Michonne is my favorite character on the show and I just know the writers would destroy her if they put her in a relationship with Rick.  She is like the only female on the show that they have been point on with, and that's probably because she hasn't been in a relationship. 

[nodorothyparker]

Just guessing but maybe Pete Martell means Michonne is getting shuffled off to the side with little to do except modify her constable windbreaker while the story of Rick nosing around Jessie has now eaten a fair portion of the three episodes they've been in the ASZ.  

 

I'm not one who thinks every character has to be in every single episode or even prominent in every single episode.  Michonne's not even my favorite character, but it's hard not to notice that she's been mostly background if not absent from the story inside the walls thus far after she was the one who pushed them all so hard to keep heading toward Washington and then to take Aaron up on his offer.

Edited March 16, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[editorgrrl]

People have strong feelings about Jessie, but there are other women on the show. I don't read the comics but I know the leader of the ASZ was a man. I applaud TPTB for making Deanna Monroe the TV equivalent.

Francine rocks (so far), and we heard of some new female characters, including Holly & Rosemary (aka strawberry church lady).

Is Carol so cold to Sam because she lost Sophia, Mika, and Lizzie—or because he's a boy? Is Holly meant for Tara? Is Enid meant for Carl? Is Tobin meant for Carol?

[kj4ever]

Just guessing but maybe Pete Martell means Michonne is getting shuffled off to the side with little to do except modify her constable windbreaker while the story of Rick nosing around Jessie has now eaten a fair portion of the three episodes they've been in the ASZ.  

 

I'm not one who thinks every character has to be in every single episode or even prominent in every single episode.  Michonne's not even my favorite character, but it's hard not to notice that she's been mostly background if not absent from the story inside the walls thus far after she was the one who pushed them all so hard to keep heading toward Washington and then to take Aaron up on his offer.

it's still better than the first half where she was regulated to being the Nanny.  That scared the crap out of me.  Michonne has had some awesome scenes this back half and even though I'd like to to be I know she can't be the focal point of every episode.

People have strong feelings about Jessie, but there are other women on the show. I don't read the comics but I know the leader of the ASZ was a man. I applaud TPTB for making Deanna Monroe the TV equivalent.

Francine rocks (so far), and we heard of some new female characters, including Holly & Rosemary (aka strawberry church lady).

Is Carol so cold to Sam because she lost Sophia, Mika, and Lizzie—or because he's a boy? Is Holly meant for Tara? Is Enid meant for Carl? Is Tobin meant for Carol?

I want to punch Deanna in the face.  I can't stand her mugging she does, it drives me nuts.  But like my issues I have with Carol, I think she's a great character and am so glad she's on the show.

[ghoulina]

It's not even about Rick being a precious woobie who wouldn't do wrong. I think he would do wrong. I think he has. I just don't think he would be this.

 

But what's the "this"? What has he actually done as of yet? He kissed a woman on the cheek. Now, I'm not going to go so far as to say it was completely innocent, like how a grandma would kiss her grandson. But it was still just a kiss on a cheek to a woman who had been very friendly and welcoming to not only Rick, but his children as well. Other than that, I do not see him going after her or obsessing about her. I surely think he caught her eye. And vice versa. But is there anything inherently wrong in that? How many married couples have never thought someone outside their marriage was attractive? How many have never flirted a bit with someone besides their spouse? Rick isn't married. And Jessie is very likely in a marriage with a POS who treats her very badly. Would it be that odd, or unforgivable, if she likes some attention from another guy? But right now, all it is is smiles and chit-chats. Until they actually lay down in bed together, I'm just not willing to act like Rick has committed some horrible atrocity. (And maybe not even then.)

 

 

 

Making it worse is that the storyline is so vague and confused, shoehorning in an abuse element that seems to involve everyone but the woman being abused,

 

But is that really all that odd for a woman being abused? Very often they are ashamed, scared, and secretive. They try so hard to put up a good front, so as not to anger their abuser, or bring embarrassment upon themselves. I don't find it odd at all to see Jessie going around town trying to be friendly and polite, whilst only learning about her potential abuse from her Porch Dick husband and scared child's behaviors. 

Carol so cold to Sam because she lost Sophia, Mika, and Lizzie—or because he's a boy?

 

Oh, I didn't think it was because he was male at all. I just thought it was because she didn't want to get close to another child, after losing so many. Also, I think Carol has little patience for children with first world cookie problems. But it does seem like children are drawn to her, despite her tough exterior. Remember, she even tried being cold to Lizzie back at the prison, when she called her mom. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by ghoulina

[Pete Martell]

But is that really all that odd for a woman being abused? Very often they are ashamed, scared, and secretive. They try so hard to put up a good front, so as not to anger their abuser, or bring embarrassment upon themselves. I don't find it odd at all to see Jessie going around town trying to be friendly and polite, whilst only learning about her potential abuse from her Porch Dick husband and scared child's behaviors. 

 

Her behavior isn't odd. It's that we see almost none of her behavior. We have no idea what she is thinking or feeling because everything we see of her is from Rick's POV and everything about whether she's being abused is from the POV of everyone but her.

 

Let's say that someone remade The Burning Bed, and it was about everyone but Francine Hughes. We hear people talking about her. We see people wonder what's going on with her. We occasionally see her show up to talk with a handsome guy who thinks she's real cute. 

 

If this was the main plot, would people really know what was going on in her life, or invest in her fate? 

But what's the "this"? What has he actually done as of yet? He kissed a woman on the cheek. Now, I'm not going to go so far as to say it was completely innocent, like how a grandma would kiss her grandson. But it was still just a kiss on a cheek to a woman who had been very friendly and welcoming to not only Rick, but his children as well. Other than that, I do not see him going after her or obsessing about her. I surely think he caught her eye. And vice versa. But is there anything inherently wrong in that? 

 

"This" is a single-minded focus on wanting Jessie, to the point where he kissed her (and the look on his face did not seem like an innocent kiss to me) in front of the whole town, to the point where seeing her with her husband gave him an itchy trigger finger, to the point where his only story in Alexandria is about her. His relationships with everyone else in his life have dwindled, because this is all the show seems to want us to see for him.

 

If this were about a lonely man who has a crush, I'd buy it.

 

To me that isn't what this is about. It is, to me, a story about a borderline obsessive man whose need to see her separated from her husband is now justified in the writing because he's an abuser. 

it's still better than the first half where she was regulated to being the Nanny.  That scared the crap out of me.  Michonne has had some awesome scenes this back half and even though I'd like to to be I know she can't be the focal point of every episode.

 

I don't think anyone expects Michonne to be the focal point of every episode. I just think that when she was the one that was the most insistent on going to Alexandria, it's unfortunate that she has had such limited airtime upon arrival. It comes across to me as if they felt that once her role in pushing Rick to go there was over, her services were no longer of use. There were plenty of small scenes they could have given Michonne last week to show us more of what she was feeling, and instead they just had her standing around talking with Abraham.

 

I don't like the possibility that she's only going to get real focus if it's about moving story for Rick, especially since nothing I have seen of him lately suggests he has any great respect for her at all.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kj4ever]

Her behavior isn't odd. It's that we see almost none of her behavior. We have no idea what she is thinking or feeling because everything we see of her is from Rick's POV and everything about whether she's being abused is from the POV of everyone but her.

 

Let's say that someone remade The Burning Bed, and it was about everyone but Francine Hughes. We hear people talking about her. We see people wonder what's going on with her. We occasionally see her show up to talk with a handsome guy who thinks she's real cute. 

 

If this was the main plot, would people really know what was going on in her life, or invest in her fate? 

 

"This" is a single-minded focus on wanting Jessie, to the point where he kissed her (and the look on his face did not seem like an innocent kiss to me) in front of the whole town, to the point where seeing her with her husband gave him an itchy trigger finger, to the point where his only story in Alexandria is about her. His relationships with everyone else in his life have dwindled, because this is all the show seems to want us to see for him.

 

If this were about a lonely man who has a crush, I'd buy it.

 

To me that isn't what this is about. It is, to me, a story about a borderline obsessive man whose need to see her separated from her husband is now justified in the writing because he's an abuser. 

 

I don't think anyone expects Michonne to be the focal point of every episode. I just think that when she was the one that was the most insistent on going to Alexandria, it's unfortunate that she has had such limited airtime upon arrival. It comes across to me as if they felt that once her role in pushing Rick to go there was over, her services were no longer of use. There were plenty of small scenes they could have given Michonne last week to show us more of what she was feeling, and instead they just had her standing around talking with Abraham.

 

I don't like the possibility that she's only going to get real focus if it's about moving story for Rick, especially since nothing I have seen of him lately suggests he has any great respect for her at all.

I LOVED her scene with Abraham, and how she hung up her katana.  I thought they were both intense, and like she always dones with everyone, she had mad chemistry with Abraham.

 

I hope Jessie really does get some sexy time with Rick so that the world can see Michonne has no fucks given about it.

[Pete Martell]

I LOVED her scene with Abraham, and how she hung up her katana.  I thought they were both intense, and like she always dones with everyone, she had mad chemistry with Abraham.

 

I hope Jessie really does get some sexy time with Rick so that the world can see Michonne has no fucks given about it.

 

The scene was decent enough, but when she was the one who wanted to come to Alexandria, it was the perfect time to show us more of her doubts, more of her attempts to fit in that didn't quite work. We should see more of this through her eyes.

 

Even if Jessie and Rick had sex right in front of her, I doubt she'd care, as she has more important priorities, but again it's unfortunate to me that this is what the show has reduced a woman who is suffering serious physical and psychological abuse to - a countdown clock for when the pants and panties drop.

[kj4ever]

The scene was decent enough, but when she was the one who wanted to come to Alexandria, it was the perfect time to show us more of her doubts, more of her attempts to fit in that didn't quite work. We should see more of this through her eyes.

 

Even if Jessie and Rick had sex right in front of her, I doubt she'd care, as she has more important priorities, but again it's unfortunate to me that this is what the show has reduced a woman who is suffering serious physical and psychological abuse to - a countdown clock for when the pants and panties drop.

Michonne had that clock put on her by the Richonne shippers, so i'm glad it's gone :)  Put it on the nice sweet lady who might be able to help Rick regain an ounce of his humanity, and he might be able to help her regain some of her dignity.  It has such potential as a story!

 

I'm seriously wondering where Maggie's head is right now.  She was upset at the church slaughter, and now he has drank the whole god damn pitcher of kool aid Deanna served her.  I bet she doesn't tell the others about FPP because she'll be afraid they'll go thermo nuclear and get kicked out.  That, or because they like to keep secrets from each other so bad things can happen in the next episode...lol

[mightysparrow]

Michonne had that clock put on her by the Richonne shippers, so i'm glad it's gone :)  Put it on the nice sweet lady who might be able to help Rick regain an ounce of his humanity, and he might be able to help her regain some of her dignity.  It has such potential as a story!

 

I'm seriously wondering where Maggie's head is right now.  She was upset at the church slaughter, and now he has drank the whole god damn pitcher of kool aid Deanna served her.  I bet she doesn't tell the others about FPP because she'll be afraid they'll go thermo nuclear and get kicked out.  That, or because they like to keep secrets from each other so bad things can happen in the next episode...lol

 

I agree 100% about Michonne and the corner she's been painted in by Richonne fans.  I'm ride or die Michonne and I don't know how or when it happened but suddenly the idea has sprung up that if Michonne isn't Rick's 'First Lady of Alexandria', she's nothing.  I've fought against Michonne's absorption into the Grimes family fold and I look at Jessie as the saviour of my favourite character.  Turning Michonne into the children's nursemaid (while others went off to do the fighting) was bad enough.  I wouldn't be able to sit through watching Michonne make goo-goo eyes and bat her eyelashes at Rick, since that seems to be the required behaviour of a woman who wants to be on Rick Grimes' arm.  Let Jessie have his power mad ass and god bless her. Michonne used to be an interesting character with lots going for her before and I'm hoping that the writers can remember the amazing character they have and the brilliant and talented artist they are blessed to have playing her.  I wondered if the scene with Abraham was a chem-test, but I also realized that it was so nice to see Michonne talking to someone other than Rick.  I look forward to Michonne interacting with other members of the group she busted her ass to get to Alexandria.

[kj4ever]

I agree 100% about Michonne and the corner she's been painted in by Richonne fans.  I'm ride or die Michonne and I don't know how or when it happened but suddenly the idea has sprung up that if Michonne isn't Rick's 'First Lady of Alexandria', she's nothing.  I've fought against Michonne's absorption into the Grimes family fold and I look at Jessie as the saviour of my favourite character.  Turning Michonne into the children's nursemaid (while others went off to do the fighting) was bad enough.  I wouldn't be able to sit through watching Michonne make goo-goo eyes and bat her eyelashes at Rick, since that seems to be the required behaviour of a woman who wants to be on Rick Grimes' arm.  Let Jessie have his power mad ass and god bless her. Michonne used to be an interesting character with lots going for her before and I'm hoping that the writers can remember the amazing character they have and the brilliant and talented artist they are blessed to have playing her.  I wondered if the scene with Abraham was a chem-test, but I also realized that it was so nice to see Michonne talking to someone other than Rick.  I look forward to Michonne interacting with other members of the group she busted her ass to get to Alexandria.

I don't care who they put her with, she always has chemistry with the other actor.  Jesus she had chemistry with MERLE of all people!  I've never liked Abraham until that scene.  She just shines a light not only on herself but the other actor in her scenes.  Jessie couldn't be more Anti-Michonne and I love the contrast, and the fact that Michonne won't be absorbed (yet, you never know) by the Supr Nova that is Rick Grimes.

[BrokenRemote]

I said this in the Tara thread, but I'll say it here because it's really more about this discussion. When Tara was first brought on she didn't have much going on for her first 3 episodes even though she was on screen most of the time.  She was only there to tell "Brian's" story and only existed as part of that.  It was several episodes before she had any story that wasn't to do with "Brian".  And yet people didn't hate her or complain that she was only there as part of a man's story or that she hadn't been given enough characterization or backstory.  Can that be because there wasn't a man who was attracted to her?

 

They went on to give Tara a lot of characterization, but if I compare her and Jessie in each of their first 3 episodes I don't really know much more about Tara than I do about Jessie--they both had a family, Ta was a cop (that's what we thought in her first 3 episodes), Jessie had "12 jobs" including hairdresser.  They were both part of a story about a man.  Tara went on to be a great character; it just took a few episodes before she was part of her own story.   So if the problem with Jessie really is that she only exists as part of Rick's story, then why wasn't everyone mad about Tara (and her sister)?

I don't care who they put her with, she always has chemistry with the other actor.  Jesus she had chemistry with MERLE of all people!  I've never liked Abraham until that scene.  She just shines a light not only on herself but the other actor in her scenes.  Jessie couldn't be more Anti-Michonne and I love the contrast, and the fact that Michonne won't be absorbed (yet, you never know) by the Supr Nova that is Rick Grimes.

 

I've said this time and again.  Girl has chemistry with her sword, for god's sake!  I've said it a lot on twitter as well, probably more than here, but she can elevate any scene and bring out the best in any actor.

[ghoulina]

I said this in the Tara thread, but I'll say it here because it's really more about this discussion. When Tara was first brought on she didn't have much going on for her first 3 episodes even though she was on screen most of the time.  She was only there to tell "Brian's" story and only existed as part of that.  It was several episodes before she had any story that wasn't to do with "Brian".  And yet people didn't hate her or complain that she was only there as part of a man's story or that she hadn't been given enough characterization or backstory.  Can that be because there wasn't a man who was attracted to her?

They went on to give Tara a lot of characterization, but if I compare her and Jessie in each of their first 3 episodes I don't really know much more about Tara than I do about Jessie--they both had a family, Ta was a cop (that's what we thought in her first 3 episodes), Jessie had "12 jobs" including hairdresser.  They were both part of a story about a man.  Tara went on to be a great character; it just took a few episodes before she was part of her own story.   So if the problem with Jessie really is that she only exists as part of Rick's story, then why wasn't everyone mad about Tara (and her sister)?

 

I couldn't agree with you more. It's kind of hard to give a character a "story" in just three episodes, especially when they're on a show with such a large cast and a ton going on. It can take time to develop, and some have gotten a quicker development than others, that's true. But I can't really make a strong statement about what they're doing with Jessie, because I just don't feel like I know yet. 

 

And a LOT of characters are initially introduced to be part of other people's stories (Noah for Beth, Maggie for Glenn) and then go on to have their own story and a stronger character, etc. So I'm content to just wait and see. 

[Nashville]

The press focus and the Talking Dead focus, including the comments the actress herself made.

I think this is where the perceptions diverge. The press, Production, the actors and actresses themselves can write/say/tweet/blog/etc. anything they wish, and I may read it, enjoy it, and even use it for post fodder - but when I'm watching the show, I totally divorce from the extraneous commentary. Because to me, it's not canon until it appears in the show. Particularly the actor/actress-stated backstories, because some past statements have given me the impression the performers come up with at least some of that on their own to fill in backstory gaps left (intentionally or unintentionally) by TPTB.

[kj4ever]

I said this in the Tara thread, but I'll say it here because it's really more about this discussion. When Tara was first brought on she didn't have much going on for her first 3 episodes even though she was on screen most of the time.  She was only there to tell "Brian's" story and only existed as part of that.  It was several episodes before she had any story that wasn't to do with "Brian".  And yet people didn't hate her or complain that she was only there as part of a man's story or that she hadn't been given enough characterization or backstory.  Can that be because there wasn't a man who was attracted to her?

 

They went on to give Tara a lot of characterization, but if I compare her and Jessie in each of their first 3 episodes I don't really know much more about Tara than I do about Jessie--they both had a family, Ta was a cop (that's what we thought in her first 3 episodes), Jessie had "12 jobs" including hairdresser.  They were both part of a story about a man.  Tara went on to be a great character; it just took a few episodes before she was part of her own story.   So if the problem with Jessie really is that she only exists as part of Rick's story, then why wasn't everyone mad about Tara (and her sister)?

Because Tara wasn't standing in the way of The Ultimate True Love Of All Time that is Richonne and their coronation as King and Queen of Alexandria :)

 

Now if we can get away from all this Jessie stuff...I do wonder about Michonne's transformation and how she might move towards some type of relationship with a man.  Her last one ended pretty badly considering she drug him around in chains for the what, better part of a year?  I know she is opening up to people - admitting that she needs people again but I wonder if she is even in a place where she would want to go there with a man.

 

I was also really glad to see she hasn't completely drank the kool aid, ala her blatant WTF when Deanna said they don't keep a regular guard in the watch tower.  I think that even though she wants to believe, she is smart enough to keep her eyes wide open.

[editorgrrl]

I do wonder about Michonne's transformation and how she might move towards some type of relationship with a man.  Her last one ended pretty badly considering she drug him around in chains for the what, better part of a year?  I know she is opening up to people - admitting that she needs people again but I wonder if she is even in a place where she would want to go there with a man.

 

Maybe Michonne and Carol can go on a double date with Tobin and his friend from the armory? Since they're redshirts (the latter doesn't even have a name), it's a low stakes way to re-enter the dating scene. And a great opportunity to collect some Alexandrian intel.

 

I hope Enid's dating life is written better than Beth's.

[Pete Martell]

I said this in the Tara thread, but I'll say it here because it's really more about this discussion. When Tara was first brought on she didn't have much going on for her first 3 episodes even though she was on screen most of the time.  She was only there to tell "Brian's" story and only existed as part of that.  It was several episodes before she had any story that wasn't to do with "Brian".  And yet people didn't hate her or complain that she was only there as part of a man's story or that she hadn't been given enough characterization or backstory.  Can that be because there wasn't a man who was attracted to her?

 

They went on to give Tara a lot of characterization, but if I compare her and Jessie in each of their first 3 episodes I don't really know much more about Tara than I do about Jessie--they both had a family, Ta was a cop (that's what we thought in her first 3 episodes), Jessie had "12 jobs" including hairdresser.  They were both part of a story about a man.  Tara went on to be a great character; it just took a few episodes before she was part of her own story.   So if the problem with Jessie really is that she only exists as part of Rick's story, then why wasn't everyone mad about Tara (and her sister)?

 

The main difference is the perspective of scenes. Let's compare Tara's relationship with her family to Jessie's relationship with her family.

 

Tara - shown being protective of her sister and niece and father (during the scene where she awkwardly tried to remind Philip of his place), even though the scene was about Philip getting to know the family. Then shown trying to show Philip her support with the fist bump scene.

 

Jessie - shown standing around with her husband as Rick looks on 

 

Tara - shown awkwardly flirting with Alisha

 

Jessie - shown standing around with her husband as Rick looks on; shown saying "nice" things to Rick so that Rick can kiss her and make "property of Rick Grimes" eyes at her

 

Tara - shown saying goodbye to her dying father, even though the scene was about Philip saving her from the walker form of him

 

Jessie - rarely if ever shown with her son, who instead talks about her to Carol; shown with her husband only from Rick's POV, so that Rick can obsess over her 

 

Technically we "know" as much about Jessie as we knew about Jacqui - we know she's a nice person, we know her job. Yet Jacqui spent 4 episodes almost entirely in the background before killing herself. Jessie, on the other hand, is supposed to be a central part of one of the show's most integral stories at the moment. 

 

If Jacqui was in Jessie's place, do you think she'd be called "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" by the press, or have Talking Dead interviews about a special connection with Rick?

Edited March 16, 2015 by Pete Martell