S01.E12: Through The Valley Of Death

[anamika]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think with the information that "Captain Luthor" is really John Henry Irons, it was probably a bit of a false flag that the writing for the show pigeonholed people of color as villains. I assume that at the time the writer was let go, she probably had to have some idea that there was more to "Captain Luthor," and that he would ultimately be a good guy. But maybe not. Or maybe one of the pivots that was made was to turn "Captain Luthor" to a good guy.

We don't know if this is just about Luthor do we? As per Nadia Turner, the showrunners made changes in the writing after she pointed out that the only black characters were baddies. Just like Kyle was supposed to hand over his wife to Morgan Edge and take away her agency in the decision and Kyle making metoo jokes which were all changed after the writer pointed out the sexism in this writing.  I am going with believing the black writer in all this.

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Anyway, I don't know if Kyle's alcoholism is known beyond his family. He isn't just a firefighter. He's the fire chief.

He's the fire chief? lol. I thought the  whole story with his family and Sarah stems from him drinking? Sarah acts like the child of an alcoholic, is disillusioned and scolds her mom for giving her father second chances. He gets angry at not getting a job and binge drinks, missing his daughter's recital. And no one knows?  The firefighters don't want him around because he vouched for Morgan Edge and not because he's an alcoholic who could potentially endanger their lives in a risky job?!

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think there's any reasonable dispute that Kyle was a vocal supporter of Edge and helped him get a foothold on the town. Does that diminish that the Smallville residents still entered freely of their own will into Edge's machine? No. But it's only human to look at scapegoats for that sort of thing. 

Again, they got fooled by Edge and so did Kyle. They wanted jobs and so did Kyle. So, 1. Blaming Kyle so much as to paint graffiti on his walls and wanting him gone? I don't see it. and 2. the optics of the Asian family yelling at and blaming Kyle irrationally for choices they made while the white lady comes out and tells them they are not to blame does not look good. If the Phan family is still around, I hope they get better writing and more agency in season 2 than just as plot devices and pawns to be manipulated.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

We don't know if this is just about Luthor do we? As per Nadia Turner, the showrunners made changes in the writing after she pointed out that the only black characters were baddies. Just like Kyle was supposed to hand over his wife to Morgan Edge and take away her agency in the decision and Kyle making metoo jokes which were all changed after the writer pointed out the sexism in this writing.  I am going with believing the black writer in all this.

He's the fire chief? lol. I thought the  whole story with his family and Sarah stems from him drinking? Sarah acts like the child of an alcoholic, is disillusioned and scolds her mom for giving her father second chances. He gets angry at not getting a job and binge drinks, missing his daughter's recital. And no one knows?  The firefighters don't want him around because he vouched for Morgan Edge and not because he's an alcoholic who could potentially endanger their lives in a risky job?!

Again, they got fooled by Edge and so did Kyle. They wanted jobs and so did Kyle. So, 1. Blaming Kyle so much as to paint graffiti on his walls and wanting him gone? I don't see it. and 2. the optics of the Asian family yelling at and blaming Kyle irrationally for choices they made while the white lady comes out and tells them they are not to blame does not look good. If the Phan family is still around, I hope they get better writing and more agency in season 2 than just as plot devices and pawns to be manipulated.

I am not remembering any black characters with speaking roles beyond JHI. Maybe they were there in a blink-and-you'll-miss it way, but I don't think so. So while I take it at her word that she complained about the lack of nonvillain black characters and sexism, it seems doubtful anything changed because of her complaint. I mean, it's possible that they decided to make "Captain Luthor" into a good guy because of her or something, but I'd tend to bet that it would have been known among the writers before then. My point is that complaining that all the black characters in the show are villains would be disingenuous if you knew that the main black character in the show was in fact an antihero/hero. That doesn't mean that she wasn't telling the truth about it or her sexism complaints.

Yeah, Kyle was established as the fire chief. It isn't clear how well he manages to cover up his drinking problem. There are such things as functioning alcoholics and he could be one. There are also reformed/mostly reformed alcoholics, and he could be one who only relapsed the one time we saw in the series when he missed the audition. I'd assume fire chief for a town like Smallville would not be a particularly demanding job normally. We'd all just be guessing, but there's no reason to think that his firefighters or the general public in Smallville know about Kyle having a drinking problem.

[akg]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am not remembering any black characters with speaking roles beyond JHI

The football coach and Sarah's ex are both Black. Of course, the ex was pretty much an angry Black man stereotype and vanished as soon as he was no longer needed in the white characters' storylines which isn't great. Same with the coach, actually. You're definitely right that, once the twins quit football, JHI is it.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

My point is that complaining that all the black characters in the show are villains would be disingenuous if you knew that the main black character in the show was in fact an antihero/hero.

True, however, it took a few episodes before the viewers found out he wasn't a bad guy so from our point of view, 2 out of 3 Black characters were bad guys. How many people stopped watching before the Luthor reveal? If they'd had more speaking parts for POC (which is something the writer who quit had pushed for), this wouldn't be such a big deal. When the villains in Flash or Legends of Tomorrow are Black, I never think the show is being racist because the heroes are diverse and the ratio of good characters of color vs evil is much more even.

[PAForrest]

14 minutes ago, akg said:

The football coach and Sarah's ex are both Black. Of course, the ex was pretty much an angry Black man stereotype and vanished as soon as he was no longer needed in the white characters' storylines which isn't great. Same with the coach, actually. You're definitely right that, once the twins quit football, JHI is it.

True, however, it took a few episodes before the viewers found out he wasn't a bad guy so from our point of view, 2 out of 3 Black characters were bad guys. How many people stopped watching before the Luthor reveal? If they'd had more speaking parts for POC (which is something the writer who quit had pushed for), this wouldn't be such a big deal. When the villains in Flash or Legends of Tomorrow are Black, I never think the show is being racist because the heroes are diverse and the ratio of good characters of color vs evil is much more even.

IMO you can count the black coach in the "bad guy" category too given the way he has been written. Also seemingly perpetually angry, always verbally abusive with no explanation to the one Kent boy (Jon). Then the last time we see him he's hanging out in the hallway getting off listening in on the conversation between a couple of kids (again, Jon & the girl) like he's two steps away from being caught as a predator on Dateline.

I agree there are some problems in the writing with PoC on this show. I don't think they changed anything where JHI is concerned - I think his trajectory was always what it was since Edge was the real Big Bad. But you're right, how many episodes did it take to come to that reveal?

I also think writing Kyle as the half-Hispanic male with anger issues and alcoholism falls into the problematic writing category for non-lily white characters. I do think the turnabout with his character in stopping the drinking, apologizing to his family, becoming a much better father and husband almost overnight might very well have something to do with the complaints about writing for characters of color or minority. Though if Kyle suddenly gets killed off, that's again a little problematic.

So there are or have been a few problems, and I think the producers should be aware of it by now.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, akg said:

The football coach and Sarah's ex are both Black. Of course, the ex was pretty much an angry Black man stereotype and vanished as soon as he was no longer needed in the white characters' storylines which isn't great. Same with the coach, actually. You're definitely right that, once the twins quit football, JHI is it.

True, however, it took a few episodes before the viewers found out he wasn't a bad guy so from our point of view, 2 out of 3 Black characters were bad guys. How many people stopped watching before the Luthor reveal? If they'd had more speaking parts for POC (which is something the writer who quit had pushed for), this wouldn't be such a big deal. When the villains in Flash or Legends of Tomorrow are Black, I never think the show is being racist because the heroes are diverse and the ratio of good characters of color vs evil is much more even.

Thanks for the reminders. Sarah's ex turned out to not be such a bad guy past the first episode, and the football coach was not a villain -- just written bad at being a football coach (forgetting that Jonathan is a QB for example)

All I'm saying is if the writer knew that Captain Luthor was really JHI, it would be cool to push for more diverse roles for Black characters than angry dudes or antagonists, but trying to say that's all that the show had would be misleading. Of course, she could have gotten canned before that reveal was known to her (which I doubt) or she could have had enough loyalty to the show (or to some sort of non-disclosure agreement) that she didn't want to spoil the reveal for the fans. 

[bethy]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:42 AM, kickingnames said:

He’s also the youngest of the main cast, and has been saddled with the most “troubled teen angst” of the storylines (along with the lamest floppy hair). I’m hoping the show will move away from at least a couple of these things next year, although this is still the CW so I’m not betting on it. (But seriously CW, do not force this child to keep this hairstyle just to show he’s the more angsty twin. Your viewers are not too stupid to tell them apart.)

Well, evidently Jared Padalecki wasn't allowed to cut his hair for 15 years lest viewers be unable to tell the difference between Sam and Dean Winchester so . . . I don't have much hope that we'll be spared the poor kid's Mop of Angst any time soon. 

[AnimeMania]

I though Kyle and Lana's youngest kid was a snarky little brat, I wonder what changed her into the perfect kid?

[blackwing]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:27 AM, anamika said:

Again, they got fooled by Edge and so did Kyle. They wanted jobs and so did Kyle. So, 1. Blaming Kyle so much as to paint graffiti on his walls and wanting him gone? I don't see it. and 2. the optics of the Asian family yelling at and blaming Kyle irrationally for choices they made while the white lady comes out and tells them they are not to blame does not look good. If the Phan family is still around, I hope they get better writing and more agency in season 2 than just as plot devices and pawns to be manipulated.

 

On 7/17/2021 at 10:36 AM, akg said:

The football coach and Sarah's ex are both Black. Of course, the ex was pretty much an angry Black man stereotype and vanished as soon as he was no longer needed in the white characters' storylines which isn't great. Same with the coach, actually. You're definitely right that, once the twins quit football, JHI is it.

True, however, it took a few episodes before the viewers found out he wasn't a bad guy so from our point of view, 2 out of 3 Black characters were bad guys. How many people stopped watching before the Luthor reveal? If they'd had more speaking parts for POC (which is something the writer who quit had pushed for), this wouldn't be such a big deal. When the villains in Flash or Legends of Tomorrow are Black, I never think the show is being racist because the heroes are diverse and the ratio of good characters of color vs evil is much more even.

I agree that there needs to be better writing for the non-white characters, although it is good that they are writing John Henry Irons in a positive way now.  Hopefully he sticks around and stands with Superman to defeat Leslie Larr and Morgan Edge when he inevitably escapes from prison.

I'm most puzzled about the Cushing family.  It seems like they are there to be the ethnically/racially ambiguous family to prevent critics from saying the main cast of the show is all white.  The actor who plays Kyle is apparently Latino or part-Latino.  Kyle has used Spanish phrases on the show.  Kyle's last name is Cushing, so I assume the character is intended to be played as half-Hispanic, even if I think he looks mostly white.   The actress who plays Sarah looks more Latino to me than Kyle does.  No idea what race Lana is supposed to be... I know the actress is Egyptian.  And the youngest daughter looks more Asian to me than Latino.

Seems pretty par for the course for a show like this... and I always find myself having mixed feelings on treatment of minorities.  On the one hand, I like that TPTB haven't really addressed the racial issue with this family.  They are a core family on the show being treated like any other core family.  No different than anyone else.  Heck, I bailed on Smallville after the first few seasons and it never even occurred to me that Kristin Kreuk is half-Chinese, it was never addressed on the show.  Which is kind of nice.  But on the other hand, it's a bit frustrating to me to see racial minorities on TV shows without even the mention of the fact that they aren't white.   When the Cushings come home to the vandalism on their house, is it because of what he did, or is it because he isn't 100% white?  IRL, they would be wondering if there is a racial discrimination element.  I know it's too much to ask for a throwaway line from Sarah wondering about discrimination, but still.

As far as the Phan family, I was surprised they even bothered to introduce the father/husband.  There usually aren't very many Asian males on superhero shows in a heroic capacity.  So on the one hand, it was nice to see that the guy existed, but then he went into this angry rant.  And Emily blames Lana and Kyle?  How about her own actions?  She was the one feeling insecure about herself which led her to go down the path of succumbing to the temptation of Edge.  I hope there is better writing for this family although I would be surprised if we see the husband ever again.

 

On 7/18/2021 at 7:59 PM, bethy said:

Well, evidently Jared Padalecki wasn't allowed to cut his hair for 15 years lest viewers be unable to tell the difference between Sam and Dean Winchester so . . . I don't have much hope that we'll be spared the poor kid's Mop of Angst any time soon. 

Yes, the Frodo hair is extremely irritating, but I agree that they are going to make him keep it.  Annoying.  It's not doing him any favours and makes his face look very pudgy.  I would rather they have made Jonathan more blonde.

19 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I though Kyle and Lana's youngest kid was a snarky little brat, I wonder what changed her into the perfect kid?

Agreed, was there even an explanation as to where she has been recently?  Sarah was babysitting her the night of the big football game, Sarah got taken to Metropolis by Tag and the kid didn't even realise that Sarah was gone.

[cambridgeguy]

On 7/17/2021 at 11:36 AM, akg said:

True, however, it took a few episodes before the viewers found out he wasn't a bad guy so from our point of view, 2 out of 3 Black characters were bad guys. How many people stopped watching before the Luthor reveal? If they'd had more speaking parts for POC (which is something the writer who quit had pushed for), this wouldn't be such a big deal. When the villains in Flash or Legends of Tomorrow are Black, I never think the show is being racist because the heroes are diverse and the ratio of good characters of color vs evil is much more even.

This show doesn't really have many major speaking parts outside of the main cast, though, does it?  Of the ones we have: if they had made Leslie Larr a POC it wouldn't have been a good look - not only is she evil (or possessed) but she's Edge's minion.  Aside from Tag the students we've seen are walking cliches to help reinforce the idea that Jon and Jordan can't find a single friend aside from Sarah because TV high school is hell.  Chrissy could have been any ethnicity, but is it really a good look if the nominally in charge editor can't do a thing until Lois Lane swoops in and props everything up?  The holodads were stuck being white, and that's basically it.  Hopefully in S2 they can expand things a bit. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm most puzzled about the Cushing family.  It seems like they are there to be the ethnically/racially ambiguous family to prevent critics from saying the main cast of the show is all white.  The actor who plays Kyle is apparently Latino or part-Latino.  Kyle has used Spanish phrases on the show.  Kyle's last name is Cushing, so I assume the character is intended to be played as half-Hispanic, even if I think he looks mostly white.   The actress who plays Sarah looks more Latino to me than Kyle does.  No idea what race Lana is supposed to be... I know the actress is Egyptian.  And the youngest daughter looks more Asian to me than Latino.

Seems pretty par for the course for a show like this... and I always find myself having mixed feelings on treatment of minorities.  On the one hand, I like that TPTB haven't really addressed the racial issue with this family.  They are a core family on the show being treated like any other core family.  No different than anyone else.  Heck, I bailed on Smallville after the first few seasons and it never even occurred to me that Kristin Kreuk is half-Chinese, it was never addressed on the show.  Which is kind of nice.  But on the other hand, it's a bit frustrating to me to see racial minorities on TV shows without even the mention of the fact that they aren't white.   When the Cushings come home to the vandalism on their house, is it because of what he did, or is it because he isn't 100% white?  IRL, they would be wondering if there is a racial discrimination element.  I know it's too much to ask for a throwaway line from Sarah wondering about discrimination, but still.

As far as the Phan family, I was surprised they even bothered to introduce the father/husband.  There usually aren't very many Asian males on superhero shows in a heroic capacity.  So on the one hand, it was nice to see that the guy existed, but then he went into this angry rant.  And Emily blames Lana and Kyle?  How about her own actions?  She was the one feeling insecure about herself which led her to go down the path of succumbing to the temptation of Edge.  I hope there is better writing for this family although I would be surprised if we see the husband ever again.

 

Yes, the Frodo hair is extremely irritating, but I agree that they are going to make him keep it.  Annoying.  It's not doing him any favours and makes his face look very pudgy.  I would rather they have made Jonathan more blonde.

Agreed, was there even an explanation as to where she has been recently?  Sarah was babysitting her the night of the big football game, Sarah got taken to Metropolis by Tag and the kid didn't even realise that Sarah was gone.

I vaguely remember that Smallville introduced Lana's mom as Asian in flashbacks, but I haven't really gone back to watch much beyond the first couple seasons, though I think I have the first 7-8 seasons on DVD. There may have been some other minor ways that show addressed Lana being part-Chinese.

Papa Phan had popped up in a previous episode IIRC. Emily had skipped their kid's recital to be a Kryptonian drone but Papa Phan was there and said something. Like I said, it makes sense to me that Emily is in some denial that she entered into things with Edge of her own free will. IIRC, she gushed about the opportunity and thanked Lana for paving the way for it, and Lana didn't bother to correct her that Lana hadn't done anything and if anything tried to prevent her from being selected.

[Chicago Redshirt]

55 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

This show doesn't really have many major speaking parts outside of the main cast, though, does it?  Of the ones we have: if they had made Leslie Larr a POC it wouldn't have been a good look - not only is she evil (or possessed) but she's Edge's minion.  Aside from Tag the students we've seen are walking cliches to help reinforce the idea that Jon and Jordan can't find a single friend aside from Sarah because TV high school is hell.  Chrissy could have been any ethnicity, but is it really a good look if the nominally in charge editor can't do a thing until Lois Lane swoops in and props everything up?  The holodads were stuck being white, and that's basically it.  Hopefully in S2 they can expand things a bit. 

There's nothing that really forced Chrissy to be a weak character to Lois. As great as Lois is by definition, she can have flaws and blindspots. Margot Kidder Lois (and probably some others) were canonically terrible spellers. They could have made Chrissy tech-savvy in a way that Lois is not, or more properly sourced in Smallville as someone who grew up there in a way that Lois isn't, or to bring something more to the table than being a Lois stan and happening to have a newspaper platform for Lois to adopt. 

[akg]

23 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I though Kyle and Lana's youngest kid was a snarky little brat, I wonder what changed her into the perfect kid?

Sarah said she was the biggest bully in her school which should be something her parents are concerned with. Maybe Sarah shouldn't be the only Cushing in therapy?

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Agreed, was there even an explanation as to where she has been recently?

I vaguely remember someone mentioning she was at a friend's house but can't come up with more than that.

I thought of another Black speaking character! The firefighter who came to tell Kyle not to come to work. I also forgot Natalie.

Potential BIPOC speaking roles: Perry White (he's even Black in the latest movies), the mayor, the mom of the missing Edge worker and her son, Lois' therapist, Clark's parents (he was adopted).

[blackwing]

6 minutes ago, akg said:

I thought of another Black speaking character! The firefighter who came to tell Kyle not to come to work. I also forgot Natalie.

Potential BIPOC speaking roles: Perry White (he's even Black in the latest movies), the mayor, the mom of the missing Edge worker and her son, Lois' therapist, Clark's parents (he was adopted).

The Queen Bee "mean girl" that Jon is interested in is black, isn't she?  I'm kind of glad the focus has been on Clark and Lois, as it should be.  But I want to see Jon be happy... he was BMOC at Metropolis High and here he can't even buy a friend.  I would put Jon either with Queen Bee (maybe she's not at all bad like Sarah says she is) or Emily Phan's daughter.  At least show the kids hanging out with others.

[7kstar]

Quote

On 7/17/2021 at 1:27 AM, anamika said:

We don't know if this is just about Luthor do we? As per Nadia Turner, the showrunners made changes in the writing after she pointed out that the only black characters were baddies. Just like Kyle was supposed to hand over his wife to Morgan Edge and take away her agency in the decision and Kyle making metoo jokes which were all changed after the writer pointed out the sexism in this writing.  I am going with believing the black writer in all this.

 

On 7/17/2021 at 7:20 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am not remembering any black characters with speaking roles beyond JHI. Maybe they were there in a blink-and-you'll-miss it way, but I don't think so. So while I take it at her word that she complained about the lack of nonvillain black characters and sexism, it seems doubtful anything changed because of her complaint. I mean, it's possible that they decided to make "Captain Luthor" into a good guy because of her or something, but I'd tend to bet that it would have been known among the writers before then. My point is that complaining that all the black characters in the show are villains would be disingenuous if you knew that the main black character in the show was in fact an antihero/hero. That doesn't mean that she wasn't telling the truth about it or her sexism complaints.

My question isn't that what she was saying wasn't possible, but was it more of how she said it vs the complaint?  This ep sets up some things that looks like they planned all along it.    I know many times when a kid would yell at me, their point may have been valid, but because of the delivery, it couldn't be allowed or tolerated.  Sometimes when you're passionate about something, you don't use the best tact.

Not one of the strongest written ep, but there are some really great moments and for that reason, I can continue watching.

On 7/17/2021 at 11:03 AM, PAForrest said:

IMO you can count the black coach in the "bad guy" category too given the way he has been written. Also seemingly perpetually angry, always verbally abusive with no explanation to the one Kent boy (Jon). Then the last time we see him he's hanging out in the hallway getting off listening in on the conversation between a couple of kids (again, Jon & the girl) like he's two steps away from being caught as a predator on Dateline.

Thinking about the coaches, I had to work with while teaching; he was pretty average.  Those boys got yelled at all the time and so I didn't think that about him being bad, just wanting them to win.  Maybe next season they will do better at this, but many coaches are verbally abusive.  Is it right, no.  I would like them to expand on the real moments and show Jon finding his place in this town next season.  Wonder if football will even be an issue next season...I hope so because for a small town Football is a very big deal.

If they flesh out the minor characters a bit more, I think people would be happier.  Many of them have been one or barely two dimensional.  As for Frodo's hair, the actor likes it shorter in the videos I've seen so it may be what they want.  I do have a nephew with mental issues and he keeps his hair very long.  Although he will cut it and donate his hair so they can make wigs out of it.

Alex is really young and doesn't really have that much experience.  But I really like the twins relationship, and they do sell it pretty well.  Watching the actors react makes me smile.  So I can deal with their acting choices.  I've certainly seen worst.

 

[John Potts]

You know maybe Lois would have had a better chance convincing John Henry of the “possibility of hope” if she hadn’t opened with “I think Superman’s been turned”. If she’d began with “there’s another Kryptonian who is trying to take over the world!” maybe he wouldn't be all out to kill Clark. And on that subject - tactically, shouldn't General Lane concentrate on putting down Edge first? He's the one who's out to conquer Earth, Clark is (maybe) just his minion. Maybe see Clark as "acceptable collateral damage", but he definitely should not be the prime target (OK, there's also his dad's AI, but they don't know about him).

It does seem in character for Kyle to want to get right back to work – and that his co-workers would be nervous about him doing so

Good on Jonathan for pushing his brother, though I understand why Jordan felt useless.

On 7/14/2021 at 3:13 AM, jcin617 said:

Why do they always leave the bad guy who’s an existential threat to Earth alive?  If Superman couldn’t do it, John certainly would.

Because it isn’t the Finale yet!