Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[SusanM]

5 minutes ago, supposebly said:

The point was that my uncle is an extreme case of a man baby who had to move into a retirement home instead of living out his days at his house because he can't take care of himself. And he's still healthy enough at the age of 85. Just probably not able to learn at this age.

No idea if this is the case in his retirement home but the one my parents live in, men are pretty thin on the ground.  My dad moved in there with his wife and he still gets ladies flirting with him and bringing him cookies etc.  He's flattered but also finds this annoying.  You can just imagine how my Mom feels!

 

[peacheslatour]

41 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

No idea if this is the case in his retirement home but the one my parents live in, men are pretty thin on the ground.  My dad moved in there with his wife and he still gets ladies flirting with him and bringing him cookies etc.  He's flattered but also finds this annoying.  You can just imagine how my Mom feels!

 

Yep. It wasn't a month before we moved my dad into the care facility that he had a girlfriend. They held hands all the time. Although tbf, my dad has Alzheimer's and he thought this old lady was my mom. One day we were visiting and she would just blurt out "Happy Birthday!" out of the blue.  She was just as loopy as he was.

[isalicat]

20 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I do on the other hand adore baking. Perhaps I get more excited about baking because I like sweets more than meal food. It's also easier to make sweets beautiful. But not as healthy a hobby as cooking. :(

Frittatas are your friend! If you like to bake and want a healthy main course meal you can make on any given day and eat for three or four meals, investigate frittatas. They are an egg-based dish, but after that you can throw in whatever you are in the mood for and if you don't want to wash and chop, buy the pre-done stuff - its in every single grocery greens section I go to and if you are making a big pan (with like 6 servings) you won't be throwing anything out, so not wasteful in terms of ingredients. Just a suggestion.

[PRgal]

45 minutes ago, isalicat said:

Frittatas are your friend! If you like to bake and want a healthy main course meal you can make on any given day and eat for three or four meals, investigate frittatas. They are an egg-based dish, but after that you can throw in whatever you are in the mood for and if you don't want to wash and chop, buy the pre-done stuff - its in every single grocery greens section I go to and if you are making a big pan (with like 6 servings) you won't be throwing anything out, so not wasteful in terms of ingredients. Just a suggestion.

Yes.  Another easy thing to make is 2+ ingredient banana and oatmeal cookies.  Two mashed bananas and 1 heaping cups of rolled oats.  Mix and add mix-ins if you feel like it (this the plus).  Bake at 350 for 15-18 minutes.  This also works with applesauce or pumpkin purée (but you’ll have to add some sweetener if your use the latter).  

[Jane Tuesday]

RE: older couples... this will probably be an unpopular opinion here, but I'm fine with an old-fashioned division of labor, if that's what works for them. My grandpa likely never washed an item of clothing or a dirty dish. (He did feed himself breakfast and lunch on days grandma was working.) But grandma never, ever, mowed the lawn or did anything involving automobiles. He kept her car fueled, and every day he would start her car and check the oil and tires so it was warm and ready to go for her.

(Of course, all adults should be capable of taking care of their basic needs, and should be respectful of their partner's effort - if your partner does all the vacuuming, don't leave your shit in the way, etc.)

I guess my point is, I'm less concerned with HOW the work is divided than I am with WHERE it's divided. If it's 50/50, does it really matter so much what the tasks are? I'm single, and so I'm responsible for all the "woman's" AND "man's" work at my house, and I'm here to say, it all sucks. Sure, there are some things I like more than others, but it's all boring and tedious and I'd love to not be responsible for any of it. There's no glory in cleaning gutters, or shoveling sidewalks, or raking leaves or whatever.

That's one thing that irks me about modern conversations about gender. There's an implication - even among feminists - that everything traditionally female is inferior and should be avoided, and everything traditionally male is superior and should be celebrated. With housework, men should "have to" clean, while women "get to" do handyman tasks. Society cheers when a girl joins Boy Scouts, but assumes boys would never want to be in Girl Scouts (implying Girl Scouting is inferior and was just a placeholder). There's this weird dichotomy that's very "girl power", but only celebrates women for doing masculine things.

The underlying feeling it creates is that men are right and we should seek to be more like them. It's never suggested that men should want to be more like women. Even negative things, like smoking, swearing, heavy drinking, fighting wars, etc., there's a feeling that "we can do it, too!", instead of thinking, "should anyone be doing it?" Women will fight tooth and nail to "get to" work long hours or travel all the time "like a man", and the whole conversation will center around whether she should, how her career will suffer if she doesn't, or her family will suffer if she does. Shouldn't the conversation be about ALL people, and why overwork and excessive travel are seen as necessary sacrifices to be successful?

I feel like there are important conversations happening where women's voices should be heard, but we're drowning ourselves out with "be like a man" thinking. The things women are generally given credit for being better at - empathy, listening, communicating, building community, nurturing relationships - wouldn't the world be a better place if those things were elevated and celebrated?

Just my five cents of rambling this morning. If you got this far, thanks for reading! 🤣

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Jane Tuesday said:

RE: older couples... this will probably be an unpopular opinion here, but I'm fine with an old-fashioned division of labor, if that's what works for them. My grandpa likely never washed an item of clothing or a dirty dish. (He did feed himself breakfast and lunch on days grandma was working.) But grandma never, ever, mowed the lawn or did anything involving automobiles. He kept her car fueled, and every day he would start her car and check the oil and tires so it was warm and ready to go for her.

(Of course, all adults should be capable of taking care of their basic needs, and should be respectful of their partner's effort - if your partner does all the vacuuming, don't leave your shit in the way, etc.)

I guess my point is, I'm less concerned with HOW the work is divided than I am with WHERE it's divided. If it's 50/50, does it really matter so much what the tasks are? I'm single, and so I'm responsible for all the "woman's" AND "man's" work at my house, and I'm here to say, it all sucks. Sure, there are some things I like more than others, but it's all boring and tedious and I'd love to not be responsible for any of it. There's no glory in cleaning gutters, or shoveling sidewalks, or raking leaves or whatever.

That's one thing that irks me about modern conversations about gender. There's an implication - even among feminists - that everything traditionally female is inferior and should be avoided, and everything traditionally male is superior and should be celebrated. With housework, men should "have to" clean, while women "get to" do handyman tasks. Society cheers when a girl joins Boy Scouts, but assumes boys would never want to be in Girl Scouts (implying Girl Scouting is inferior and was just a placeholder). There's this weird dichotomy that's very "girl power", but only celebrates women for doing masculine things.

The underlying feeling it creates is that men are right and we should seek to be more like them. It's never suggested that men should want to be more like women. Even negative things, like smoking, swearing, heavy drinking, fighting wars, etc., there's a feeling that "we can do it, too!", instead of thinking, "should anyone be doing it?" Women will fight tooth and nail to "get to" work long hours or travel all the time "like a man", and the whole conversation will center around whether she should, how her career will suffer if she doesn't, or her family will suffer if she does. Shouldn't the conversation be about ALL people, and why overwork and excessive travel are seen as necessary sacrifices to be successful?

I feel like there are important conversations happening where women's voices should be heard, but we're drowning ourselves out with "be like a man" thinking. The things women are generally given credit for being better at - empathy, listening, communicating, building community, nurturing relationships - wouldn't the world be a better place if those things were elevated and celebrated?

Just my five cents of rambling this morning. If you got this far, thanks for reading! 🤣

This!!!!  It’s bugged me since I was old enough know what “feminism” means.  Why can’t we celebrate men who choose to teach elementary school (for example…I get many are creeps but we seem to only think that part)?  Boys don’t see themselves at lower grade levels, and they need to think about a diverse range of careers as much as girls.  Plus many boys live in homes where there are NO male role models.  School might also be the only place they see the same adult on a daily basis.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by PRgal

[SusanM]

2 hours ago, Jane Tuesday said:

That's one thing that irks me about modern conversations about gender. There's an implication - even among feminists - that everything traditionally female is inferior and should be avoided, and everything traditionally male is superior and should be celebrated. With housework, men should "have to" clean, while women "get to" do handyman tasks. Society cheers when a girl joins Boy Scouts, but assumes boys would never want to be in Girl Scouts (implying Girl Scouting is inferior and was just a placeholder). There's this weird dichotomy that's very "girl power", but only celebrates women for doing masculine things.

Absolutely agree with every word of your post but wanted to highlight this.  It's the same with "girl" toys and "boy" toys.  It's all well and good to give a boy a Barbie (let's celebrate how cool we are with this) but it's also, apparently, ok to sneer at "the pink aisle" in a toy store and give a girl lego when she wants a Barbie because "we're not going to fall into the traditional female girl toy trap".  Nevermind if she wants a Barbie and he doesn't.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

Absolutely agree with every word of your post but wanted to highlight this.  It's the same with "girl" toys and "boy" toys.  It's all well and good to give a boy a Barbie (let's celebrate how cool we are with this) but it's also, apparently, ok to sneer at "the pink aisle" in a toy store and give a girl lego when she wants a Barbie because "we're not going to fall into the traditional female girl toy trap".  Nevermind if she wants a Barbie and he doesn't.

Or sneer at giving boys cars and trucks.  My guy happens to LIKE cars and trucks.  I've tried the "girl stuff" thing with him - I bought two books from the Once Upon a World collection (princess stories from western Europe set in other parts of the world) and he had ZERO INTEREST.  He DOES like to play kitchen though.  I think we might have a future chef in our hands.....One who likes cars and trucks. 

[BlackberryJam]

I’m so damn glad I’m not a parent because I don’t care what toys children play with as long as they are age appropriate. I played with a cardboard box as a child and loved that damn thing.

I understand about “oh, doing the traditional male jobs somehow makes women cooler because traditional female jobs are uncool” and how that line of thinking can devalue women who like traditional female tasks. 

My issue, personally, with that division of household labor is not which job is cool or uncool. Traditional female tasks are the MUCH harder tasks. For example, if I need to say…replace the inner workings of six toilets. I can watch a youtube video, buy the items, and depending on my struggles with upper body strength, get that task done in 2-3 hours. 

If I’m prepping a dinner party for six, I have to clean the house, make sure the there is clean and matching dinner and flatware, choose and prepare the meal, and then clean up afterwards. That’s a six hour job. Miss me with that one.

Female tasks are hard work. I’m lazy. I’ll do the toilets, thank you. It’s not that plumbing is cool. It’s gross. 

[RealHousewife]

8 hours ago, Jane Tuesday said:

I guess my point is, I'm less concerned with HOW the work is divided than I am with WHERE it's divided. If it's 50/50, does it really matter so much what the tasks are? I'm single, and so I'm responsible for all the "woman's" AND "man's" work at my house, and I'm here to say, it all sucks. Sure, there are some things I like more than others, but it's all boring and tedious and I'd love to not be responsible for any of it. There's no glory in cleaning gutters, or shoveling sidewalks, or raking leaves or whatever.

That's one thing that irks me about modern conversations about gender. There's an implication - even among feminists - that everything traditionally female is inferior and should be avoided, and everything traditionally male is superior and should be celebrated. With housework, men should "have to" clean, while women "get to" do handyman tasks. Society cheers when a girl joins Boy Scouts, but assumes boys would never want to be in Girl Scouts (implying Girl Scouting is inferior and was just a placeholder). There's this weird dichotomy that's very "girl power", but only celebrates women for doing masculine things.

Yes, I don't care who does what, as long as there's a fair distribution of work. 

Exactly. It's cool if a girl does martial arts, but it's lame if a boy does ballet. 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I’m so damn glad I’m not a parent because I don’t care what toys children play with as long as they are age appropriate. I played with a cardboard box as a child and loved that damn thing.

I understand about “oh, doing the traditional male jobs somehow makes women cooler because traditional female jobs are uncool” and how that line of thinking can devalue women who like traditional female tasks. 

My issue, personally, with that division of household labor is not which job is cool or uncool. Traditional female tasks are the MUCH harder tasks. For example, if I need to say…replace the inner workings of six toilets. I can watch a youtube video, buy the items, and depending on my struggles with upper body strength, get that task done in 2-3 hours. 

If I’m prepping a dinner party for six, I have to clean the house, make sure the there is clean and matching dinner and flatware, choose and prepare the meal, and then clean up afterwards. That’s a six hour job. Miss me with that one.

Female tasks are hard work. I’m lazy. I’ll do the toilets, thank you. It’s not that plumbing is cool. It’s gross. 

I personally prefer to cook or clean than to do a lot of the stuff considered a man's job, but you're right that the traditional female tasks take more energy. Cooking and cleaning have to be done every day. How often do you need the "handy man" stuff done? Not all that often. 

[SusanM]

35 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

I personally prefer to cook or clean than to do a lot of the stuff considered a man's job, but you're right that the traditional female tasks take more energy. Cooking and cleaning have to be done every day. How often do you need the "handy man" stuff done? Not all that often. 

That gets me so angry!  "Women's work" is done daily or certainly weekly, as in every single day you cook the meals, clean the kitchen, tidy the house and at least a few times a week you are doing laundry, vacuuming and the like.  Yeah doing all that is totally equal to mowing the typical suburban size lawn in the summer and raking the leaves once or twice in the fall.  Sure.

Edited January 24, 2022 by SusannahM

[JustHereForFood]

9 hours ago, Jane Tuesday said:

That's one thing that irks me about modern conversations about gender. There's an implication - even among feminists - that everything traditionally female is inferior and should be avoided, and everything traditionally male is superior and should be celebrated. With housework, men should "have to" clean, while women "get to" do handyman tasks. Society cheers when a girl joins Boy Scouts, but assumes boys would never want to be in Girl Scouts (implying Girl Scouting is inferior and was just a placeholder). There's this weird dichotomy that's very "girl power", but only celebrates women for doing masculine things.

The underlying feeling it creates is that men are right and we should seek to be more like them. It's never suggested that men should want to be more like women. Even negative things, like smoking, swearing, heavy drinking, fighting wars, etc., there's a feeling that "we can do it, too!", instead of thinking, "should anyone be doing it?" Women will fight tooth and nail to "get to" work long hours or travel all the time "like a man", and the whole conversation will center around whether she should, how her career will suffer if she doesn't, or her family will suffer if she does. Shouldn't the conversation be about ALL people, and why overwork and excessive travel are seen as necessary sacrifices to be successful?

I feel like there are important conversations happening where women's voices should be heard, but we're drowning ourselves out with "be like a man" thinking. The things women are generally given credit for being better at - empathy, listening, communicating, building community, nurturing relationships - wouldn't the world be a better place if those things were elevated and celebrated?

Just my five cents of rambling this morning. If you got this far, thanks for reading! 🤣

I agree with everything you said. And to get maybe a bit off-topic regarding what you mentioned about work - I hate when the conversation about women working is often also centered about only 2 options - a woman either wants to have children, or if she doesn't, she just has to plan a great career and be a workoholic. It's much more often on TV, but I've also seen a lot of conversations regarding children and parental leave centered about that. Hello, I don't want children, but I also don't plan any huge career for myself. I work because I have to and I hate it. I would not want to be financially dependent on a partner, but if I inherited money or won a lottery or whatever, you bet I would not work, or would only have a part-time job. Because I don't have that money, I have to have a full-time job, but I try my best to only do the exact amount of what is required of me. I've already had enough experience with getting pressured into working overtime, being so stressed from work that I developed health problems and had to take a leave inbetween jobs so that I would not have some sort of breakdown. I don't need any societal pressure to be successful, have it all, make a great career or any of that, just because I don't want to have any children. I want to have my free time, as much as I can get.

And obviously, it should work the other way as well, women who decide to have both careers and children should not be made to think that they have to choose. If they manage it, good for them. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Cooking and cleaning have to be done every day. How often do you need the "handy man" stuff done? Not all that often. 

As someone who does all of it, this is completely true.  In the past couple of months I have had to replace a dimmer switch, unjam the stuck flywheel in my garbage disposal, and troubleshoot which component of my refrigerators's defrost system needs to be replaced (I still need to get that part and replace it).  And that's more fix-it work than is normally required in that time span, I just went through a period where more things crapped out than usual.

Setting that aside and just looking at routine maintenance, the time spent on tasks stereotypically assigned to men is still far below that spent on "women's work" chores.  I'm going to do this in ascending order of frequency:

-Changing the oil in my car: every six or 12 months
-Cleaning the AC filters: every six months (yeah, the manufacturer says three; the manufacturer can send someone over every three months then)
-Washing the car: every few months
-Yard maintenance (other than mowing, which I pay someone to do weekly): once a month
-Mopping the floors: once a month
-Grocery shopping: once a week or bi-weekly
-Laundry: weekly
-Vacuuming and dusting:  weekly
-Meal planning, preparation, and clean-up: other than the occasional order in, every fucking day.  That's cooking or assembling something simple for lunch, prepping and cooking a full dinner, washing the dishes, and cleaning off the counter and stove.

It is not a coincidence that list got more "feminine" as it went on. 

And, contrary to popular belief, the "manly" maintenance items aren't any more skilled labor or physically demanding than the "women's work" ones.  The fix-it items, yes, those require additional knowledge - just as it does when I go select fabric and sew a set of curtains because I don't like what I found pre-made.  I know how to do all those things because I learned how; none of this knowledge comes embedded in a chromosome.

In a heterosexual partnership, if the division of labor is equitable and who does what based on skill, interest, and availability winds up looking pretty stereotypical in terms of gender, groovy.  But if it's not equitable, or hews to stereotypical gender lines out of a belief women are "supposed to" do all the cooking, for example, so it's a default assumption from which you deviate only if there's a reason to, that's a problem.  And that's still happening in way too many households. 

And in way too many jobs.

[Annber03]

On 1/23/2022 at 3:45 PM, peacheslatour said:

My dad was taught to do a lot of cleaning in the Air Force. He just brought it with him when he left the service. He had no problem cleaning, bed making, laundry, even the bathrooms. He used to say "gotta make sure to polish up the brass."

Good on him. That's the part that I find most bizarre about the "that's women's work!" attitude when it comes to doing all the chores you mention here. If it was okay for men to do this stuff when they were in the military, why does it suddenly revert back to "women's work" when they're out of the military? They wouldn't have gotten away with that excuse as a reason not to do any of that stuff when they were in the service, why do they get to get away with it any other time? 

[peacheslatour]

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Good on him. That's the part that I find most bizarre about the "that's women's work!" attitude when it comes to doing all the chores you mention here. If it was okay for men to do this stuff when they were in the military, why does it suddenly revert back to "women's work" when they're out of the military? They wouldn't have gotten away with that excuse as a reason not to do any of that stuff when they were in the service, why do they get to get away with it any other time? 

IKR? He just did it as a matter of course. My mom had her own business and eventually, so did my dad. I ran a little experiment when I was in my very early twenties, based on the hypothesis that men who grew up with mothers who worked outside the home are more independent and able to look after themselves than men whose mothers didn't. It almost ran a binary path.

[Annber03]

21 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

IKR? He just did it as a matter of course. My mom had her own business and eventually, so did my dad. I ran a little experiment when I was in my very early twenties, based on the hypothesis that men who grew up with mothers who worked outside the home are more independent and able to look after themselves than men whose mothers didn't. It almost ran a binary path.

That makes sense. My dad was raised by a single mom, after his dad died when he was eight years old, and she, obviously, had to work outside the home as a result. 

And I definitely remember my dad doing his part to help out around the house when I was a kid. My mom's told me before about how her co-workers were shocked to find out that my dad would take care of me when I was a baby, and go to the grocery store, and so on and so forth, while my mom was at work. She'd be sitting there thinking, "...yeah, he's her dad, that's kind of his job, isn't it?" 

[Bastet]

10 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

My mom's told me before about how her co-workers were shocked to find out that my dad would take care of me when I was a baby, and go to the grocery store, and so on and so forth, while my mom was at work. She'd be sitting there thinking, "...yeah, he's her dad, that's kind of his job, isn't it?"

Ugh, yes - the people who refer to a dad taking care of his kid alone for a time as "babysitting".  No.  Babysitting is something you do to someone else's kid, either for money or as a favor.  Taking care of your own kid is simply parenting.

[theredhead77]

Regardless of how families want to split the household duties, all members of the family should know how to follow a recipe, regardless of gender. 

I'm working on getting my brother from another cooking. He is a year older than I am and got out of an LTR a few years ago. His "I'm a single guy, I don't need to cook" mantra was fine for a bit but I explained he will attract a woman better suited for what he wants from life, if he can cook, and cooking is just following a recipe.

I won't date a man who can't cook or clean, or doesn't have a bedroom set and a furnished home. It can be shit from IKEA but you're a grown-ass man, get a bedroom set and a couple actual bookcases.

[Annber03]

I'd love to learn to cook more stuff that isn't in a box, but it's hard to do that in our place 'cause we don't have a lot of counter space. 

But yeah, if I had more room I'd definitely love to learn to make more foods. Even then, though, there are a few things I do know how to make, and I can make stuff from a box (I just made some Rice a Roni for dinner, in fact). I agree that whatever food you're making, so long as you follow the recipe you should be fine. And in this day and age there's really no excuse to not learn that kind of skill, because there's all sorts of sites with recipes and how to videos showing how to cook things and whatnot. 

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I'd love to learn to cook more stuff that isn't in a box, but it's hard to do that in our place 'cause we don't have a lot of counter space. 

But yeah, if I had more room I'd definitely love to learn to make more foods. Even then, though, there are a few things I do know how to make, and I can make stuff from a box (I just made some Rice a Roni for dinner, in fact). I agree that whatever food you're making, so long as you follow the recipe you should be fine. And in this day and age there's really no excuse to not learn that kind of skill, because there's all sorts of sites with recipes and how to videos showing how to cook things and whatnot. 

I love Rice A Roni.  My fav is the fried rice one.  But oy, the salt. I have learned it's better to only add half the flavor packet and add your own stuff like scallions or finely chopped carrots.

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

I love Rice A Roni.  My fav is the fried rice one.  But oy, the salt. I have learned it's better to only add half the flavor packet and add your own stuff like scallions or finely chopped carrots.

Oh, I've never tried that, that's a good idea. I like carrots, so that might be a good thing to add in sometime. 

[theredhead77]

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I'd love to learn to cook more stuff that isn't in a box, but it's hard to do that in our place 'cause we don't have a lot of counter space. 

But yeah, if I had more room I'd definitely love to learn to make more foods. Even then, though, there are a few things I do know how to make, and I can make stuff from a box (I just made some Rice a Roni for dinner, in fact). I agree that whatever food you're making, so long as you follow the recipe you should be fine. And in this day and age there's really no excuse to not learn that kind of skill, because there's all sorts of sites with recipes and how to videos showing how to cook things and whatnot. 

I am hooked on sheet pan meals. Most are super easy to make and don't take up much space to prep.

[peacheslatour]

7 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I am hooked on sheet pan meals. Most are super easy to make and don't take up much space to prep.

Excellent suggestion.

[RealHousewife]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:39 PM, theredhead77 said:

Regardless of how families want to split the household duties, all members of the family should know how to follow a recipe, regardless of gender. 

I'm working on getting my brother from another cooking. He is a year older than I am and got out of an LTR a few years ago. His "I'm a single guy, I don't need to cook" mantra was fine for a bit but I explained he will attract a woman better suited for what he wants from life, if he can cook, and cooking is just following a recipe.

I won't date a man who can't cook or clean, or doesn't have a bedroom set and a furnished home. It can be shit from IKEA but you're a grown-ass man, get a bedroom set and a couple actual bookcases.

Agree about the cleaning.

Regarding cooking, for me it depends on why the guy doesn't cook. Does he have an incredibly busy life and relies primarily on salad, sandwiches, and takeout? That's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm picky enough on other things many women don't care about. Or is he plain lazy or thinks cooking is woman's work? I've complained about him on here before, but my sister's boyfriend is like a child in a grown man's body. He hasn't worked since God knows when, and he doesn't cook anything beyond ramen noodles either. I'm really scared for her future. I just see her having to do everything. 

I will say it is definitely a nice bonus for me if a guy can cook well though and gets into it. There's something beautiful about feeding people no matter your gender.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Quote

I will say it is definitely a nice bonus for me if a guy can cook well though and gets into it. There's something beautiful about feeding people no matter your gender.

 

Agreed.

[theredhead77]

To me, it's important that he can cook. It doesn't have to be gourmet but he has to be able to follow a recipe, make something that seems hard but isn't, like eggplant parmesan or lasagna for example. It shows effort.

As much as I love cooking I don't want to be the only one doing it and I don't want to be eating sandwiches, salads and canned soups because he can't cook. I'd happily eat a homemade muffuletta.

[PRgal]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:05 PM, theredhead77 said:

To me, it's important that he can cook. It doesn't have to be gourmet but he has to be able to follow a recipe, make something that seems hard but isn't, like eggplant parmesan or lasagna for example. It shows effort.

As much as I love cooking I don't want to be the only one doing it and I don't want to be eating sandwiches, salads and canned soups because he can't cook. I'd happily eat a homemade muffuletta.

My husband says he's going to make me pasta soon but "needs help."  I told him to read the instructions on the package. 

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

My husband says he's going to make me pasta soon but "needs help."  I told him to read the instructions on the package. 

"The pots are here, the strainer is in this cabinet. You know where the faucet and plates are".

[SoMuchTV]

Replying to the pasta issues in Chit-Chat.

[RealHousewife]

Anyone here familiar with Camille Paglia or Christina Hoff Sommers? Both consider themselves feminists but get lots of pushback from other feminists. I don't know if I agree with everything either one says, but thy both seam reasonable and well-intentioned to me. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by RealHousewife

[isalicat]

1 minute ago, RealHousewife said:

Anyone here familiar with Camille Paglia or Christina Hoff Sommers? Both consider themselves feminists but get lots of pushback from other feminists. I don't know if I agree with everyone either one says, but thy both seam reasonable and well-intentioned to me. 

I'm very familiar with Camille Paglia, not at all with the other person. Be aware that feminism, like bloody everything else, is now quite factional - you have first wave, second wave, third wave feminism and pro-trans and TERF and God knows what else. So "pushback" is to be expected...but I would agree that Ms. Paglia is very reasonable in my opinion.

[BlackberryJam]

I encountered my first TERF in real life, not just internet. Apparently, my support of trans girls using girl’s restrooms at school makes me a misogynistic tool of the patriarchy. I just blinked, repeatedly, and moved on.

Edited February 6, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[Bastet]

30 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Anyone here familiar with Camille Paglia or Christina Hoff Sommers? Both consider themselves feminists

I could consider myself a cat, but I wouldn't actually be one.

[RealHousewife]

4 hours ago, isalicat said:

I'm very familiar with Camille Paglia, not at all with the other person. Be aware that feminism, like bloody everything else, is now quite factional - you have first wave, second wave, third wave feminism and pro-trans and TERF and God knows what else. So "pushback" is to be expected...but I would agree that Ms. Paglia is very reasonable in my opinion.

True. I'm still trying to learn. I know I'm a feminist in the classical sense/by definition, but I'm not so sure about modern feminism. I agree about certain issues, but not everything. 

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I encountered my first TERF in real life, not just internet. Apparently, my support of trans girls using girl’s restrooms at school makes me a misogynistic tool of the patriarchy. I just blinked, repeatedly, and moved on.

Ugh I'm so sorry! This is actually one of the issues I don't see eye to eye on with a large number of feminists. I bat very hard for the transgender community. If whoever that was truly loved and supported women, she wouldn't have been such a jerk to you. 

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

I could consider myself a cat, but I wouldn't actually be one.

Do you mind sharing what views they espouse you disagree with? I'm trying to see if there's a place for me in 2022 feminism because of the very fact the least popular feminists resonate with me. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Do you mind sharing what views they espouse you disagree with?

Oh, let's see, pretty much every claim in Paglia's Sexual Personae for starters, followed by her ongoing dismissal of any allegation of sexual assault that is not immediately reported, and then we can get into her embrace of Hugh Hefner's ideas of masculinity and sexual relations.  And of Hoff Summers's many offenses, I'd put dressing up MRA bullshit as "equity feminism" near the top of the list, delve further into her "war against boys" nonsense (her Gamergate comments and buddying up to Milo are just the tip of the iceberg), and then move to her Paglia-like claims about false allegations of rape (which are, of course, actually only slightly more common than unicorn sightings) and denying the wage gap.

And then they have the nerve to call it feminism, which is right up there with Phyllis Schlafly calling herself a housewife in the "alternative facts" section of women's history.

[RealHousewife]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Oh, let's see, pretty much every claim in Paglia's Sexual Personae for starters, followed by her ongoing dismissal of any allegation of sexual assault that is not immediately reported, and then we can get into her embrace of Hugh Hefner's ideas of masculinity and sexual relations.  And of Hoff Summers's many offenses, I'd put dressing up MRA bullshit as "equity feminism" near the top of the list, delve further into her "war against boys" nonsense (her Gamergate comments and buddying up to Milo are just the tip of the iceberg), and then move to her Paglia-like claims about false allegations of rape (which are, of course, actually only slightly more common than unicorn sightings) and denying the wage gap.

And then they have the nerve to call it feminism, which is right up there with Phyllis Schlafly calling herself a housewife in the "alternative facts" section of women's history.

Thank you for the informative response. I definitely did not know that Paglia was dismissive of sexual assault that isn't immediately reported, yikes! I will research that along with everything else. To be honest, I didn't think the wage gap was as wide as we've heard for years, that it was due to a number of variables. I've absolutely seen men promoted for mediocrity more often than I've seen women promoted for being average, but would you say the wage gap is along 77 cents to a dollar, or is it the smaller difference that we still need to combat because of how much it adds up throughout a lifetime? It's sad fields dominated by women tend to be underpaid. I considered being both a teacher and a social worker, but I knew the money wouldn't be enough for me. 

I don't think I've mentioned it yet in this thread, but one thing that hurt me at one job was trying to avoid a certain man. He was the worst person I ever worked with. I was offered a promotion, but it would have meant I'd work with this individual again. This man did not rape me, but he was extremely pushy about wanting a relationship with me, sent texts that were very inappropriate, was really cruel dealing with rejection. He was initially a friend of mine, and it was all so hurtful and difficult to deal with. I wonder how much things like this affect women and what % of men deal with it. 

[JTMacc99]

On 1/23/2022 at 3:52 PM, Bastet said:

Like all those awful commercials where a man is horrible at some domestic task, so the woman has to take over, and this product makes it nice and easy for her - domestic tasks are an insult to the wonderful capabilities of the male brain, so they're just not suited for it; leave that stuff to the little woman, since she knows how by virtue of being born a woman. 

I always see this trope in commercials as particularly insulting to men. At least to those of us who aren't bumbling idiots but are painted as such by the broad brush of people wanting to sell products. 

It reinforces gender stereotypes for the purpose of getting the purchaser of the product to think "Yes, my husband does do a terrible job cleaning the floor!" as a way to build a bond between the product and the consumer. And it's pretty damn effective or they wouldn't do it.

 

Advertisements pointed at male consumers use the same technique of gender stereotyping. It's not helping us get anywhere closer to gender equality, but it does a great job of selling your crap.

I've seen a commercial for a car cleaning products where a family is driving when the toddler in the back seat spills a bunch of food and drink. When they get home, the wife takes the child out of the car seat and the dad, deeply concerned, immediately hops to it with the car cleaning products where he restores the back seat to factory conditions. 

Is this reinforcing gender stereotypes? Yes. Is it targeted to make a connection with the consumer who is going to buy car cleaning products? Also yes. And lastly, is it effective? Hell yes. 

[peacheslatour]

Advertising...effective?

 

[BlackberryJam]

21 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

I always see this trope in commercials as particularly insulting to men. At least to those of us who aren't bumbling idiots but are painted as such by the broad brush of people wanting to sell products. 

It reinforces gender stereotypes for the purpose of getting the purchaser of the product to think "Yes, my husband does do a terrible job cleaning the floor!" as a way to build a bond between the product and the consumer. And it's pretty damn effective or they wouldn't do it.

 

Advertisements pointed at male consumers use the same technique of gender stereotyping. It's not helping us get anywhere closer to gender equality, but it does a great job of selling your crap.

I've seen a commercial for a car cleaning products where a family is driving when the toddler in the back seat spills a bunch of food and drink. When they get home, the wife takes the child out of the car seat and the dad, deeply concerned, immediately hops to it with the car cleaning products where he restores the back seat to factory conditions. 

Is this reinforcing gender stereotypes? Yes. Is it targeted to make a connection with the consumer who is going to buy car cleaning products? Also yes. And lastly, is it effective? Hell yes. 

So, in this commercial, the woman is concerned with the health and wellbeing of the child, while the man is concerned with the appearance and condition of the car. *sigh* This just reinforces minimizing the paternal role in the care of children.

Advertising sucks. And yes, it works. Hell, how often do we see that “sex sells”?

[PRgal]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:17 PM, BlackberryJam said:

So, in this commercial, the woman is concerned with the health and wellbeing of the child, while the man is concerned with the appearance and condition of the car. *sigh* This just reinforces minimizing the paternal role in the care of children.

Advertising sucks. And yes, it works. Hell, how often do we see that “sex sells”?

This is EXACTLY one of the reasons why it's so hard for us to break the glass ceiling/why there aren't more of us in the C-suite.  Or on boards.  And the fact that we focus so much on our own rights (which is very much needed), minimizing the reality that we also need to encourage MEN to contribute (we don't put enough effort on that.  At least that's how I feel) is just going to continue this very issue.  I don't want my son to grow up in this kind of world.  However, men's passive roles in childcare (my husband is more likely to sit in his room, playing with his phone while I'm on the floor, actively playing with the kid) seems to continue, even now, in 2022.  I think my dad was more active with me.  In 1983 (using that year because that was when I was 3 1/2, same age as my son now).  THIRTY-NINE YEARS AGO.  

[isalicat]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:35 PM, PRgal said:

However, men's passive roles in childcare (my husband is more likely to sit in his room, playing with his phone while I'm on the floor, actively playing with the kid) seems to continue, even now, in 2022.

And so, what are you doing about this? You have mentioned before that your husband doesn't make dinner. Our homes are tiny worlds, in which we model for our children what values we want them to take out into the larger world as they become older and more independent. My husband did 90% of daily childcare as I was the "breadwinner", and cooked and cleaned as much if not more than I did. By the time my son was 10 he was doing his own laundry and making dinner for all of us once a week. Get on it, PR Gal! Its time to make the change you want to see.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, isalicat said:

And so, what are you doing about this? You have mentioned before that your husband doesn't make dinner. Our homes are tiny worlds, in which we model for our children what values we want them to take out into the larger world as they become older and more independent. My husband did 90% of daily childcare as I was the "breadwinner", and cooked and cleaned as much if not more than I did. By the time my son was 10 he was doing his own laundry and making dinner for all of us once a week. Get on it, PR Gal! Its time to make the change you want to see.

Therapist said to just bring it up naturally.  The only time we actually talk is either at mealtimes (not appropriate to talk about these things with a toddler at the table) or around bedtime.  These days, he's all about watching the playoffs.  Yep...

[isalicat]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Therapist said to just bring it up naturally.  The only time we actually talk is either at mealtimes (not appropriate to talk about these things with a toddler at the table) or around bedtime.  These days, he's all about watching the playoffs.  Yep...

Sorry but IMO your therapist is not doing you any favors by advocating such a passive approach. Nothing is going to change without a "come to Jesus" sit down with your husband...either in couples therapy or just the two of you - make an appointment for some time when your kid is doing something else (I assume there is some time that your son is at a play date or school or somewhere outside the home without you?) and start hashing out a schedule to divide the household responsibilities (including child care/development) like two equal adults. If he doesn't want to do this then at least you know what bed you have made and will be lying in for the rest of your marriage.

[peacheslatour]

23 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Therapist said to just bring it up naturally.  The only time we actually talk is either at mealtimes (not appropriate to talk about these things with a toddler at the table) or around bedtime.  These days, he's all about watching the playoffs.  Yep...

Maybe it you were to take a short trip with some girlfriends or family members and leave your son home with his father for a few days? Like the saying goes "walk a mile in my shoes."

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

Maybe it you were to take a short trip with some girlfriends or family members and leave your son home with his father for a few days? Like the saying goes "walk a mile in my shoes."

I don't actually have friends outside of family and my husband, so probably with my parents (though that isn't always pleasant either).  Maybe an alone trip.  LOL.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I don't actually have friends outside of family and my husband, so probably with my parents (though that isn't always pleasant either).  Maybe an alone trip.  LOL.

Even just spending a weekend in a hotel to recharge and rejuvenate would help a little.

[RealHousewife]

What do you all think of places like Hooters? The concept has always bothered me. There are people a lot more conservative than I am who don't have an issue with it. Strip clubs honestly don't bother me nearly as much. I think part of what makes Hooters so gross to me is how it's seen as just another place to eat and people take their kids there. A tit-themed restaurant shouldn't be considered family-friendly. I don't have kids, but I'd never want my son to think objectifying women is cool. Men seem to get admiring women's beauty confused with objectifying. And I'd never want my daughter to work somewhere she had to show cleavage and wear booty shorts and have men twice her age ogle her. All of this feels very patriarchal and wreaks of toxic masculinity to me. 

As gross as I find breastaurants, to be clear, I am not judging the young women who work there. I understand it can be hard to make good money, and many of them don't love working there themselves, which is just sad. 

[peacheslatour]

^^^^^ I agree. I don't know how they became acceptable for "normal" families to go to these places. I had a friend that I met at flower school who was just working there to get by until she could get a job in a flower shop. You wouldn't believe the horror stories she told me. Men playing grab ass in front of their wives and kids, groups of men coming in  to harass one waitress or another just to make them uncomfortable, often leading to the women being reduced to tears. They are terrible places and I don't think nice people should patronize them.

[RealHousewife]

5 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

^^^^^ I agree. I don't know how they became acceptable for "normal" families to go to these places. I had a friend that I met at flower school who was just working there to get by until she could get a job in a flower shop. You wouldn't believe the horror stories she told me. Men playing grab ass in front of their wives and kids, groups of men coming in  to harass one waitress or another just to make them uncomfortable, often leading to the women being reduced to tears. They are terrible places and I don't think nice people should patronize them.

I'm so sorry your friend went through that, but not surprised! I know lots of people who go to Hooters, and I don't want to paint them with the same brush. But I definitely think you're going to run into harassment more in such a sexualized environment. I don't think nice people should give their business to these places either. 

[Bookworm 1979]

11 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

^^^^^ I agree. I don't know how they became acceptable for "normal" families to go to these places. I had a friend that I met at flower school who was just working there to get by until she could get a job in a flower shop. You wouldn't believe the horror stories she told me. Men playing grab ass in front of their wives and kids, groups of men coming in  to harass one waitress or another just to make them uncomfortable, often leading to the women being reduced to tears. They are terrible places and I don't think nice people should patronize them.

Stuff like that happens in "respectable" places, too, not just places like Hooters.  These men are going to be disgusting no matter where they are.  I know people who have worked in restaurants, and I've worked retail and... it's ALL bad.