Timey-Wimey: MCU Funky Fallacies

[swanpride]

The place to discuss how time travel and multiverses in the MCU actually work, and what the implications are. All time travel which happened in the MCU goes, but naturally the focus is on Loki. 

[swanpride]

To start this: What I find confusing is that there is supposedly one sacred timeline, but as far as we know, there are already multiple timelines split due to the actions of the Avengers. I mean, even if Cap was meant to go back (which...yeah, terrible notion of him pretending to be a nobody in a timeline knowing fully fell that at the same time Bucky gets tortured somewhere), even if Tony talking to his father or Thor talking to his mother didn't have a ripple effect, and even if they somehow deleted the Timeline Loki created by escaping, there is STILL a timeline which now has no Thanos and his army. How do you clean THAT up? 

 

And that is before we get to AoS, which also created a second timeline for sure. 

 

Also, if the world of the Time Keepers is basically happening out of time and they are travelling around in time, wouldn't all variants happen at the same time for them? Or is their world basically happening parallel to the main timeline and there is a point to which they can't travel? 

[SnarkShark]

Perhaps a timeline that eventually returns it's original agent of change to the original place automatically collapses back into (or totally replaces) the original?   In other words, it always inevitably became a world where Steve went back to Peggy, and any version where that DIDN'T happen was always meant to exist, then go away. 

Where that leaves Steve In The Ice is the main thing to work out.  He'd have to have been left there until the same time he always was.  Any different spouses or family members from Version 1 of events are the main losers here.  It's unclear if dupes of them just magically go away if there's a replacement or merging, or if the TVA has to clean that mess up. 

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, swanpride said:

which...yeah, terrible notion of him pretending to be a nobody in a timeline knowing fully fell that at the same time Bucky gets tortured somewhere

Cap hiding out and being a nobody and being Peggy's husband all along doesn't make sense even based on what we saw in Endgame. Because if he just his out and did nothing then where did the new shield he gave Sam come from (it's made from the rarest material on earth)?  Because I don't see how it is possible to get it without altering the timeline. Does Peggy just ask Howard if he has any more vibranium shields lying around without giving any reason why she is asking?

Edited June 12, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[swanpride]

And even if we explain Steve away somehow, there is still the "no Thanos" timeline. How is THAT now a huge variant? 

[Kel Varnsen]

22 hours ago, swanpride said:

To start this: What I find confusing is that there is supposedly one sacred timeline, but as far as we know, there are already multiple timelines split due to the actions of the Avengers. I

If you watch the Miss Minutes video there is a red dashed line above the sacred timeline and in the scene in France one of the TVA dudes says they are approaching the redline. That says to me that as long as a timeline doesn't vary too much from the sacred line it can keep on existing. Which makes sense since if all the timeless are very similar they probably aren't going to go to war with each other.

[SnarkShark]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

If you watch the Miss Minutes video there is a red dashed line above the sacred timeline and in the scene in France one of the TVA dudes says they are approaching the redline. That says to me that as long as a timeline doesn't vary too much from the sacred line it can keep on existing. Which makes sense since if all the timeless are very similar they probably aren't going to go to war with each other.

I don't read the situation that way at all. 

They're fanatics. All powerful ones, admittedly. 

I think every alternate timeline is expected to go. Because even if flat now, they could in turn develop time travelers and split off more realities. 

It's just that ones across that red line perhaps are dangerous in some other way. Perhaps those lines can't simply be reset with one of their doohickeys. Or those lines have their own version of the TVA, so not just time travelers, but their own time enforcers. Or across the red line maybe they can't transport out back to their core reality. Or lots of other possibilities. 

[swanpride]

Or whoever is in charge dropped the ball...I mean, they decided on one timeline and basically created one where half of the universe (does this include them?) got destroyed, and there was only one way to fix it, which was the one which would destabilise the timeline.

[minamurray78]

I think that the cartoon at the TVA showing the white timeline as steady and therefore being the sacred one and the red ones being the branches that must be erased is misleading, and that is the reason why it was ok for the avengers to go back to get the stones creating other timelines. I think sometimes a branch is created and its future events are considered more beneficial for the time keepers than what was going on in the original timeline, and so then what was considered the main timeline gets cut and that new branch becomes the “sacred timeline”. In other words a red line becomes white. The Avengers weren´t just “meant to do what they did”; it just worked out better for the time keepers down the road and thus they decided to go that way and snuff everything else.

Did that make sense or is it just wrong? Or was it meant to be obvious from the beginning for everyone and I just got it? Last time travel I tried to understand was from Back to the Future…

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/13/2021 at 1:37 AM, SnarkShark said:

I don't read the situation that way at all. 

They're fanatics. All powerful ones, admittedly. 

I think every alternate timeline is expected to go. Because even if flat now, they could in turn develop time travelers and split off more realities. 

It's just that ones across that red line perhaps are dangerous in some other way. Perhaps those lines can't simply be reset with one of their doohickeys. Or those lines have their own version of the TVA, so not just time travelers, but their own time enforcers. Or across the red line maybe they can't transport out back to their core reality. Or lots of other possibilities. 

Even in the scene in Mongolia with Loki one of the TVA people looks at their little computer screen and says something about how the slope of the timeline is too steep and the visual on the screen is similar to what was in the Miss Manners cartoon. To me the slope is the rate of change of the alternate timeline from the sacred timeline. Why would the TVA care about the slope if every timeline gets wiped? 

[SnarkShark]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Why would the TVA care about the slope if every timeline gets wiped? 

Urgency.   When it's over that line something changes. 

[tv echo]

In episode 2, Miss Minutes said that, if the Nexus Event branches past the red line, the TVA can no longer reset the Nexus Event, leading to the destruction of the timeline and the collapse of reality "as we know it." And Mobius talked about "chaotic alterations" to the sacred timeline. 

I think the sacred timeline is like the speed limit. If you're driving 5 miles over the speed limit, you are technically breaking the law, but you are unlikely to be stopped by the police. However, if you are recklessly driving 30 miles over the speed limit, you are significantly more likely to cause a catastrophic accident and you will be stopped by the police if spotted.

Edited June 16, 2021 by tv echo

[swanpride]

At this point I am officially confused...I thought that they would explain how there could be that many vastly different Lokis despite them sweeping up every variant which strays apart from the "right" path pretty much the moment he goes in the wrong direction, but now we have a Loki with an entirely different childhood...how does this work?????

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

but now we have a Loki with an entirely different childhood...how does this work?????

Alternate Universe.

[swanpride]

But the show claims that there aren't any alternate universes but one sacred timeline they protect. Like, the moment one Loki strays of his path, he should be picked up and deleted (or whatever they do with variants). 

[Ailianna]

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

But the show claims that there aren't any alternate universes but one sacred timeline they protect. Like, the moment one Loki strays of his path, he should be picked up and deleted (or whatever they do with variants). 

The show doesn't claim that. The TVA claims that. I don't know any reason to uncritically accept their claim.

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

The show doesn't claim that. The TVA claims that. I don't know any reason to uncritically accept their claim.

The TVA also claimed that everyone working at the TVA was created there.  Turns out that is probably not true either.

So what else is the TVA lying about ?

[Megras]

Well if you capture a variant, take them to the TVA, remove their personality and brainwash them into working for you, one could say that they were created there.

Note they didn't say they were born there.

[Ailianna]

And we have Sylvie as the source for the idea they are all variants. Now, I strongly suspect she's right, but she's not exactly a beacon of truthiness, so I'm still open to the idea she is wrong. It could be either or neither at this point. None of our narrators are my first choice in reliability.

[Kel Varnsen]

So if Sylvie is an Asgardian, and some of her travels have been to times before Ragnarok, how come Odin and Heimdall haven't dealt with her, or any of the many Loki variants for that matter. Heimdall is supposed to be able to see everything in the nine realms. Or when the minute mean deal with most of the Lokis do they just go get them from Asgard prison?

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So if Sylvie is an Asgardian, and some of her travels have been to times before Ragnarok, how come Odin and Heimdall haven't dealt with her, or any of the many Loki variants for that matter. Heimdall is supposed to be able to see everything in the nine realms. Or when the minute mean deal with most of the Lokis do they just go get them from Asgard prison?

Because variants weren’t a thing or known until after the movies ended? Or existed in the MCU movie universe?

And neither was her character. Only Hella, and that was when they were making Ragnorak.
 

Edited June 26, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because variants weren’t a thing or known until after the movies ended? Or existed in the MCU movie universe?

And neither was her character. Only Hella, and that was when they were making Ragnorak.
 

I am not sure I follow your explanation. In the movies yes they can't really be explaining variants because writers haven't created them yet. But in the world of the show how do they deal with Asgard?  The Sylvie variant showed up in France in the 1500's and Oklahoma in the 1800's on the sacred timeline. Doesn't Heimdall see that there is an Asgardian down on earth killing a bunch of people? And doesn't the Bifrost give him the power to do something about it?

Edited June 27, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not sure I follow your explanation. In the movies yes they can't really be explaining variants because writers haven't created them yet. But in the world of the show how do they deal with Asgard?  The Sylvie variant showed up in France in the 1500's and Oklahoma in the 1800's on the sacred timeline. Doesn't Heimdall see that there is an Asgardian down on earth killing a bunch of people? And doesn't the Bifrost give him the power to do something about it?

Except as far as we know, Sylvie isn't an Asgardian, since Loki is only one by adoption. And think about the times Loki must have been seen from the Bifrost, and yet Heimdall didn't act, he left it up to Thor to deal with him. Even if he could do something, that doesn't mean he would.

[swanpride]

I guess this episode made it a little bit clearer...apparently it is not about how a Loki looks like, there can be multiple timelines which exist beside each other but the moment they stray too far from the so called original, they get deleted (which must have happened a lot of times, apparently...I guess they deleted every timeline which might have avoided the destruction of Asgard). 

[Spartan Girl]

I guess Ravonna being evil and the Time Keepers being fake can mean that her explanation that everything the Avengers did was “supposed to happen” was a bunch of hooey. They just let Steve do whatever he wanted because they couldn’t risk him getting involved. 

[swanpride]

Or because deleting half of the universe didn't fit their plans...

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:14 PM, swanpride said:

I guess this episode made it a little bit clearer...apparently it is not about how a Loki looks like, there can be multiple timelines which exist beside each other but the moment they stray too far from the so called original, they get deleted (which must have happened a lot of times, apparently...I guess they deleted every timeline which might have avoided the destruction of Asgard). 

That was my take away, especially since a Sylvie who looks about 7 is actually probably at least a few hundred years old.

[swanpride]

Who knows...it isn't really clear how Asgardians age. Based on all the dates given so far, the most logical explanation for who did what when would be that they go through their early years pretty fast but then get stuck in puberty for quite some time. 

Maybe the difference was simply that Odin never did the "both of you are meant to be king" speech. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

New question: When Kid Loki was erased from existence in his timeline, did that bring "his" Thor back to life?  Because killing his brother was his nexus event, and he said it like it was a done deal. After the TVA pruned him and sent him to the Void, did they also resurrect Thor?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Spartan Girl]

Omg you guys I just thought of something!

Classic Loki followed the MCU timeline down to a T except for faking his death by Thanos. And Loki’s faked his death before, it wouldn’t have been completely out of character to do it again. He was completely under the TVA’s radar until he tried to go find Thor, which was when he got caught. But if he hadn’t done that, the TVA would never have known. Which gives us two possibilities:

Classic Loki was our Loki (from the future)

Or (and I’m grasping at straws here)…

Our Loki might still be alive!!!!

[JustHereForFood]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Omg you guys I just thought of something!

Classic Loki followed the MCU timeline down to a T except for faking his death by Thanos. And Loki’s faked his death before, it wouldn’t have been completely out of character to do it again. He was completely under the TVA’s radar until he tried to go find Thor, which was when he got caught. But if he hadn’t done that, the TVA would never have known. Which gives us two possibilities:

Classic Loki was our Loki (from the future)

Or (and I’m grasping at straws here)…

Our Loki might still be alive!!!!

You mean the one who died in Infinity War?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

You mean the one who died in Infinity War?

Yeah, I took Classic Loki surviving Thanos as solely because he didn't try to stab him, he used his powers of illusion to fake his death and then hid for however many years (decades? even centuries?)  before the TVA found him. He specified that he was only caught because he tried to leave the planet he took refuge on, that he wanted to find Thor and probably try to make peace. Our Loki, as far as we know, is still dead in the prime timeline, since his "I can't go back, can I?" from the first episode has yet to be refuted. If Sylvie hangs around after the show ends, he might sacrifice himself to save her, the way Classic Loki found his own purpose in doing the same for them, but that's just speculation on my part.

[JustHereForFood]

11 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yeah, I took Classic Loki surviving Thanos as solely because he didn't try to stab him, he used his powers of illusion to fake his death and then hid for however many years (decades? even centuries?)  before the TVA found him. He specified that he was only caught because he tried to leave the planet he took refuge on, that he wanted to find Thor and probably try to make peace. Our Loki, as far as we know, is still dead in the prime timeline, since his "I can't go back, can I?" from the first episode has yet to be refuted. If Sylvie hangs around after the show ends, he might sacrifice himself to save her, the way Classic Loki found his own purpose in doing the same for them, but that's just speculation on my part.

I get it, I just got a bit confused who is "our" Loki here, since I started to separate the one we see on the show (that I refer to as Our Loki in my head), from the one who died in IW, since that one got a separate development after the first Avengers movie. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Yeah, I took Classic Loki surviving Thanos as solely because he didn't try to stab him, he used his powers of illusion to fake his death and then hid for however many years (decades? even centuries?)  before the TVA found him. He specified that he was only caught because he tried to leave the planet he took refuge on, that he wanted to find Thor and probably try to make peace. Our Loki, as far as we know, is still dead in the prime timeline, since his "I can't go back, can I?" from the first episode has yet to be refuted. If Sylvie hangs around after the show ends, he might sacrifice himself to save her, the way Classic Loki found his own purpose in doing the same for them, but that's just speculation on my part.

I thought Classic Loki created a copy of himself that stabbed Thanos as part of his fake death; he just wasn’t stupid to do it himself.

Anyway, either Classic Loki was able to avoid the TVA/Time Keepers/whoever because they thought he was dead, or they knew and were fine with it as long as he was no longer in their preferred narrative for the timeline—they only arrested and pruned him when he tried to get back to Thor after thousands of years.

Fans have cried foul for years that it was OOC for Infinity War Loki to stab Thanos when he could have used his magic, not to mention that his didn’t turn back into a Frostgiant when he died. All these things are definitely examples of the Russos and their shitty writing, but it also leaves plenty of room for the fan theory that IW Loki faked his death after all. If Classic Loki almost got away with it, then maybe IW Loki is still alive? 

It would be an interesting twist, but then again, I was holding out hope for Power Broker Sharon to be a Skrull all along. Anything to salvage the MCU’s crappy writing lol.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Fans have cried foul for years that it was OOC for Infinity War Loki to stab Thanos when he could have used his magic, not to mention that his didn’t turn back into a Frostgiant when he died.

Did Loki turn back into a frost giant after he died the other times? I honestly don't recall, would have to rewatch some stuff. I remember that Thor really believed he was dead in Dark World, that he saw the body, but in the first movie he let go of the Bifrost on purpose, so everyone just thought he was dead. He's died at least once, so it's kind of hard to keep track. 😛

[swanpride]

If we think of "our" MCU as the main timeline, than Loki is dead, because the older Loki was okay as long as he didn't cause any ripples, but the moment he did he was removed, which means that Loki was meant to die, period. Alternate Loki was okay as long as he was sitting around on some random planet doing nothing of note, but the moment he decided to leave, he created a Nexus event because he wasn't meant to be alive. 

A better question is how time in the TVA actually works. So do we have a continuing timeline where randomly stuff splits, but not based on what happened first and what last on THIS timeline, but based on the timeline of the TVA???? Because otherwise all the splits would happen at once or they would have to happen the moment the main timeline reaches the point. 

[johntfs]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:41 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

New question: When Kid Loki was erased from existence in his timeline, did that bring "his" Thor back to life?  Because killing his brother was his nexus event, and he said it like it was a done deal. After the TVA pruned him and sent him to the Void, did they also resurrect Thor?

In a manner of speaking.  The "pruning bombs" "reset the timeline" and get rid of everything outside of the Sacred Timeline.  The TVA didn't so much resurrect Thor as make it so that he never died in the first place.