Marvel Movies & Comics: Loki+

[formerlyfreedom]

The spot to discuss already released MCU movies and comics, as well as the source material. Spoiler tags are NOT required here; you enter this topic at your own peril! Thanks

[Captain Carrot]

I'm putting this speculation here as it's based on the comics. If I remember correctly, in the comics the Time Keepers were created at the end of a timeline and created the TVA to ensure that there creation occurred. Any change in history that affected their creation was dealt with.

Based on that and the mention of a previous multiverse war I'm thinking that the Time Keepers were the winners of that war, and all of this is to ensure that they're never challenged again. There's nothing altruistic in it.

[Kel Varnsen]

Are the TVA a new thing. I read Avengers Forever and the Time Keepers are in that but I don't remember the Time Variance Authority.

[Captain Carrot]

The TVA has been around since the 80's, but they haven't been used too much recently

[paigow]

A version of Enchantress also appeared on Agents Of SHIELD... Sif was sent to recapture her on Earth... but that is not MCU canon

ETA: Sif called her a dangerous criminal, but never discussed any connection [as a co-conspirator or variant] to Loki with Coulson

Edited June 17, 2021 by paigow

[tv echo]

Quote

WHAT IS THE TVA?
...
The Time Variance Authority (TVA) works tirelessly to prevent and/or minimize temporal interferences. Time cannot be tampered with in their endless offices out of the Null-Time Zone dimension, making it an ideal space-time locale to escape notice. They have also been known to hire bounty hunters to combat or arrest time-travelers, such as Immortus and the Fantastic Four of Earth-616, like when the latter explored a mysterious time bubble that was causing a chronal loop! See how Marvel’s First Family escaped the TVA’s custody.
*  *  *
BUT… WHAT ARE THEIR TIME LAWS?
...
I mean, you have to know them so you don’t violate them, right? Right...?

Stealing time, temporal misconduct, or time jumps that can destabilize the continuity are just a few of the myriad of crimes punishable by the TVA. From what we can gather, here are the laws: Don’t mess with the timestream, avoid traveling through time, don’t contact people in the past to save them from their future, and maybe don’t explore/implode time bubbles like the Fantastic Four did in FANTASTIC FOUR (1961) #341!

FYI, all questions answered in this Marvel.com article:

• WHAT IS THE TVA?
• WHO LEADS THE TVA?
• WHAT MOTIVATES MR. MOBIUS "MOBY" M. MOBIUS?
• WHO ELSE WORKS FOR THE AGENCY?
• DO THEY HAVE AN ARMY?
• HOW MUCH AUTHORITY DO THEY HAVE?
• BUT… WHAT ARE THEIR TIME LAWS?
• WHO ARE THE TIME-KEEPERS?

Edited June 17, 2021 by tv echo

[paigow]

The Lady Loki origin story that I heard about was:

A new body was created for Sif to be reincarnated in, but Loki hijacked it before her soul could move in

[Terrafamilia]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:23 PM, paigow said:

A version of Enchantress also appeared on Agents Of SHIELD... Sif was sent to recapture her on Earth... but that is not MCU canon

That was Lorelei, who in the comics is the younger sister of the Enchantress.

[swanpride]

And there is nothing in the MCU which refutes the story. 

[Morrigan2575]

On 6/17/2021 at 12:03 PM, paigow said:

The Lady Loki origin story that I heard about was:

A new body was created for Sif to be reincarnated in, but Loki hijacked it before her soul could move in

That was the one I'm familiar with as well.

[Spartan Girl]

So this is episode called bullshit on Loki dying because he tried to stab Thanos instead of using his magic. Hell, I fully expected him to take Classic Loki’s path of faking his death. It’s not like he didn’t do it before!!

[JustHereForFood]

Between Loki and WandaVision, I appreciate that Marvel is showing us how some of the classic costumes look in live action. They may not be practical, or turn the character into the sexiest person ever, but they are definitely fun to look at!

[Kel Varnsen]

From the latest episode thread.

Quote

Kang references do seem to be showing up a lot (kind of like Thanos did).

Re: a Loki Variant as the TVA head - literally anything is possible in the MCU (whether it makes sense or not!! LOL), but probably the biggest thing that leads me away from that possibility is that one of the main, defining characteristics of a Loki is that they are undisciplined.

They are survivors (which is a defensive stance, not an offensive, organized one), not leaders (even President Loki didn't fare well). And while Sylvie seems different, even she is more of a survivor than an activist. She's obviously been hiding a long time (like Classic Loki), but the TVA would have caught her and neutralized her when she made her attack if it wasn't for the existence of our Loki and Mobius changing the playing field. 

So whoever is behind the TVA, they are methodical and focused. Those really aren't Loki traits.  

Kang references could also suggest Immortus references. He is the future old man version of Kang. He lives at the end of time. In the comics he is an agent of the Time Keepers, but perhaps he is instead their master/creator. In Avengers Forever he and the Time Keepers were pruning the various alternate timelines that were a threat to them.

Edited July 8, 2021 by saoirse
Per request of poster, changed spoiler box to quote box

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

From the latest episode thread.

  Reveal spoiler

 

Kang references do seem to be showing up a lot (kind of like Thanos did).

Re: a Loki Variant as the TVA head - literally anything is possible in the MCU (whether it makes sense or not!! LOL), but probably the biggest thing that leads me away from that possibility is that one of the main, defining characteristics of a Loki is that they are undisciplined.

They are survivors (which is a defensive stance, not an offensive, organized one), not leaders (even President Loki didn't fare well). And while Sylvie seems different, even she is more of a survivor than an activist. She's obviously been hiding a long time (like Classic Loki), but the TVA would have caught her and neutralized her when she made her attack if it wasn't for the existence of our Loki and Mobius changing the playing field. 

So whoever is behind the TVA, they are methodical and focused. Those really aren't Loki traits.  

 

Kang references could also suggest Immortus references. He is the future old man version of Kang. He lives at the end of time. In the comics he is an agent of the Time Keepers, but perhaps he is instead their master/creator. In Avengers Forever he and the Time Keepers were pruning the various alternate timelines that were a threat to them.

Ah!! Thank you!! That is intriguing... I will have to do some googling!! 

[Captain Carrot]

One interesting thing about Kang is that in the comics he has a tendency to succeed....then get bored and starting over. (At least he succeeds when he's not facing the Avengers). So I think it would be kind of interesting if they get to the home of the big bad, and it's empty. Kang has moved on, and the TVA is continuing out of inertia. (This would fall in line with when Mobius asked Loki what he would do if he ever won. The victory might be fun, but governing would be boring).

[Wynterwolf]

6 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

So I think it would be kind of interesting if they get to the home of the big bad, and it's empty. Kang has moved on, and the TVA is continuing out of inertia.

Interesting idea. I could see that if Kang's goal had been to eliminate the Infinity Stones and decimate the Avengers, he would have succeeded in that with Endgame and then once he won, he got bored? And I could see one of the Lokis taking over an abandoned Castle, assuming the superficial glory without having to do any of the work. But then that would make the more important conflict happen at the TVA itself, between Ravonna and Mobius, so there'd have to be a way and a reason to get our Loki at least, back to the TVA, I'd think.... hmmm. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Wynterwolf

[tv echo]

Was Captain America's Avengers: Endgame Ending a Nexus Event? Loki Director Responds (Exclusive)
By Liam Crowley Posted: July 26, 2021
https://thedirect.com/article/avengers-endgame-captain-america-loki-nexus-event-exclusive 

Quote

Speaking in an exclusive interview with The Direct, Loki director Kate Herron offered her impassioned perspective on Steve Rogers' potential breach of the Sacred Timeline.

"So! I’ve been thinking about this (laughs). I’m just like [so excited]... People are going to be annoyed because it’s not a definitive answer, but also I can only really answer as a fan, right? My theory is this: It comes down to if you’re an optimist or a pessimist. If you’re an optimist, maybe it was okay [for] them living that way, and the branch wasn’t so severe that it didn’t need to be pruned, and that meant that they could stay together. Maybe the romantics can say somehow that managed to exist. And then the pessimists [think], ‘They probably got pruned (laughs).'"

Herron elaborated on her theory, noting there's a real chance that Cap and Peggy's marriage was able to stay below the TVA's breach threshold.

"It depends on how people fall on that side of things, because in my head I guess it would be... generally branches have to be pruned and then maintained, right? But it depends. Like if it’s alternate, it would imply that it’s running alongside our main timeline, so yeah. I don’t want to definitively say that they were pruned, but by our logic in the TVA, probably. But maybe where there’s a will there’s a way, and they weren’t too disruptive and managed to live happily ever after."

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by tv echo

[Dame sans merci]

I appreciate that Herron's been put on the spot there...but that branch can't have been pruned, or we wouldn't have had old Steve visiting Sam in the present day time frame. 

 

[johntfs]

On 7/29/2021 at 4:50 AM, Dame sans merci said:

I appreciate that Herron's been put on the spot there...but that branch can't have been pruned, or we wouldn't have had old Steve visiting Sam in the present day time frame. 

 

It probably wasn't pruned.  Quite a few "alternate timelines" probably weren't pruned.  In episode 6 we learn the real underlying criteria for pruning (which not even the TVA itself knows) - and it has little to do with "varying from the Sacred Timeline."  The thing that gets a timeline pruned is if it leads to another version of "He Who Remains."  That's it.

Alligator Loki got pruned because he ate the wrong neighbor's cat and somehow that opened the way for a version of He-Who-Remains. 

If the Peggy/Steve happy ending had caused another HWR, it'd have been pruned.  It didn't so it wasn't.

[tv echo]

FYI, Tom Hiddleston is part of the voice cast list for Marvel's What If...? animated series...

Here's the link to the What If...? forum here:
https://forums.primetimer.com/forum/4565-what-if/ 

[tv echo]

In this interview about the new Doctor Strange movie, Michael Waldron explained why the Loki series was not connected to that movie...

‘Doctor Strange 2’ Screenwriter Defends Wanda’s Evolution, Talks Cameos and His ‘Star Wars’ Script
By Adam B. Vary    May 10, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/doctor-strange-2-spoilers-scarlet-witch-cameos-1235263318/

Quote

You were instrumental in creating the Disney+ series “Loki” and establishing the multiverse as a force within the MCU. Did you ever look at connecting that show with this film in any way?
If it had been necessary, I think we would have. But as it was, it felt, even to me, like we were just reaching. Nothing would have made me happier than to get to write dialogue for Tom or Owen or Sophia. But it felt like this was a story happening separate of that TVA purview. And that might have complicated things. You know, this movie was already handling a lot, and that might have just confused things even further. So I think we were okay without it.

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

How ‘Loki’ Led Us to the ‘Multiverse of Madness’
BY CHRISTINE DINH   MAY 12, 2022
https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/loki-led-us-to-doctor-strange-multiverse-of-madness

Quote

The question on everyone’s mind going into the film: Who Really Broke The Multiverse?
*  *  *
However, as revealed at the Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness World Premiere Red Carpet, Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige shared it was events earlier than No Way Home that brought us to the current state of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. “There’s always a method to the madness even in the Multiverse,” promised Feige. “The Marvel.com fans know that Loki and Sylvie did something at the end of [Loki] that sort of allowed all of this to be possible. He Who Remains is gone, and that allowed a spell to go wrong in Spider-Man: No Way Home, which leads to the entire Multiverse going quite mad in this film.”

Speaking to Marvel.com, producer Richie Palmer elaborated even further for us. “If the events of Loki never took place, if Sylvie didn’t do what she did, this movie and the events of Spider-Man: No Way Home wouldn’t have been able to happen,” explained Palmer. “It was the activation of the Multiverse, or maybe the reactivation of the Multiverse at the end of Loki that really led to the possibilities that you see in What If…?, Spider-Man: No Way Home, and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.”

“At that moment, the Multiverse expanded indefinitely forward into the future, back into the past, sideways, left and right, to alternate realities we can’t even comprehend,” continued Palmer. “If it wasn’t for Sylvie, we wouldn’t be here right now.”
*  *  *
Does that mean that Strange and Peter are completely blameless? No, not really.

“What Kevin was referring to about that spell at the end of Spider-Man is if that spell had just gone the way that Doctor Strange thought it would, even if Peter Parker messed it up so horribly like he did, it really still would have only affected people within our Universe,” added Palmer. “Doctor Strange wasn’t considering that he had to, in doing that spell and setting it up, worry about all the infinite other universes out there that are filled with people that know who Spider-Man is. That shouldn’t have been a factor. That was something that’s not known to Strange and Wong at that point that they have to be factoring in all these alternate realities in the Multiverse.”

Edited May 13, 2022 by tv echo