Thelma & Louise (1991)

[Hiyo]

Saw this article today, and thought this classic movie deserved it's own thread. And the issues regarding the movie are probably just as relevant today as they were 30 years ago.

Thelma & Louise at 30: a groundbreaking road movie that still strikes a nerve.

[JustHereForFood]

Absolutely. I saw it only a couple years ago and thought how timeless it was, in both good and bad way.

Love the ending.

[enoughcats]

I almost wish it weren't getting PR for it anniversary.  I don't want it to be discovered by a bright young producer with more money than taste who will decide it needs to be remade.

[Bastet]

I've seen this film so many times I can recite along verbatim when watching, and I'm always left with so many complicated emotions afterward.  It's really great.

I recommend Becky Aikman's book Off the Cliff: How the Making of Thelma & Louise Drove Hollywood to the Edge.

[Dr.OO7]

On 5/25/2021 at 1:33 PM, enoughcats said:

I almost wish it weren't getting PR for it anniversary.  I don't want it to be discovered by a bright young producer with more money than taste who will decide it needs to be remade.

And "fix" things.

[raven]

Thanks for bumping this up, it inspired me to re-watch and it is still excellent.

One detail I appreciated is how both women become sunburned and messier the longer the ordeal goes on.  Very realistic when ordinarily Hollywood would want them still looking as fresh and full of make up as when they started their trip.

Odd to see Harvey Keitel as a good guy.  There's a longer ending which shows the car pretty much crashing and then Harvey's character watching at the edge of the cliff.  Sooo glad they chose the ending with the car suspended in the air - it's perfect as is and the longer ending puts the focus on the male characters, which is not the point of the movie.

[Hiyo]

Here is that ending for anyone interested (not really an alternate ending, more like an extended one):

 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, raven said:

Odd to see Harvey Keitel as a good guy. 

When this came out, I didn't really know of him.  Especially because this film became an immediate favorite (I saw it twice in the theatre, wrote a paper on it*, etc.), I closely associated him with Hal.  So when, in the next several years, I saw him in many more things and registered him as that guy who goes all Harvey Keitel on someone's ass in every film, for a long time it was a disconnect for me.

I still use one of his quotes from this movie (I say a shit ton of things from this movie on the regular, but lines from the women); I've rarely directly threatened someone with it, but I've said in many times in describing to others how I'm going to take some asshole down:  His miseries will be my goddamn mission in life.

I still remember my friend getting ticked at me for thinking aloud (and not using my inside voice) during this film, but when Louise declared she wanted an escape route from Oklahoma to Mexico that didn't go through Texas, I exclaimed, before Thelma could, "The only thing between Oklahoma and Mexico is Texas!"

Of course, I continue to quote and/or paraphrase Louise's reasoning, "You shoot off a guy's head with his pants down, believe me, Texas is not the place you want to get caught."

*I think I still have that paper (it was for an Anthropology Through Film course, and I argued this movie was a study of the white working class woman in the American South [got an A]), and now I kind of want to pull that old box out from the back of the closet and find it.

[Hiyo]

The score in that final scene and during the end credits was also really great. Hans Zimmer knocked it out of the park for that one.

 

[Sarah 103]

On 5/31/2021 at 1:42 PM, raven said:

Sooo glad they chose the ending with the car suspended in the air - it's perfect as is and the longer ending puts the focus on the male characters, which is not the point of the movie.

It also reminds me of the freeze frame at the end of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. You know the heroes are doomed and are not going to make it out alive, but at least you are spared the visual and can remember them alive. I liked the women sort of trade idealogical positions and views as the story progresses. Each one ends up with a different point of view from where they started. 

I know this is going to sound crazy, but the first time I saw Thelma and Louise it reminded me of a Western movie. 

[JustHereForFood]

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I know this is going to sound crazy, but the first time I saw Thelma and Louise it reminded me of a Western movie. 

I believe it was compared to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, especially the ending.

[paramitch]

I love this movie. I think it's incredibly brave, strange, and visionary, and I love the journey it gives Thelma and Louise as women.

I saw Thelma & Louise in the theatre with a bunch of friends when it first came out, and it's one of the most memorable moviegoing experiences of my life, because we went to see it because of the kind of lighthearted kickass trailer. So two hours later, we all stumbled out of the theatre looking stunned and shell-shocked, like we'd just been through a war. In the best way.

I think the performances are terrific, and it's perfectly cast. I also think Callie Khouri's script is almost perfect. The entire movie feels like a kind of fever dream in the desert, a spiraling nightmare that's also beautiful. A boyfriend of mine once complained that it was misandrist. He said, "Come on, that's not what it's like to be a woman." I remember looking at him and going, "It's what it FEELS like to be a woman. It's the nightmare version."

Which is why I love the witty script and love how every single man Thelma and Louise encounter is a male archetype being called into account (most of them toxic): The asshole husband. The rapist. The weak boyfriend. The good cop. The gawking trucker. The lover/thief. And Ridley Scott's direction emphasizes this. Each man they encounter is always framed by Scott at some point in this fantastic way, heavily foregrounded, filling the frame, almost like a statue. Each of these men is like an obstacle the women have to overcome to keep going -- it's like a version of The Odyssey for women, but because they are women, they have nowhere to land, no safe haven to return to.

My one complaint about Thelma and Louise is one single logistical plot point that drives me bonkers: It's when Louise's boyfriend Jimmy (oh, pretty Michael Madsen in his prime) brings her her money — they're at the dive motel, and Louise inexplicably hands over to THELMA her goddamn life savings in cash as Thelma is about to go off to her solo room, and says, "Now, you guard this money." Thelma looks a little befuddled, takes the cash, goes off to her room, and of course, is then seduced and robbed by the charming thief J.D.

Plotwise, this necessarily dooms the women, and sends them off on the final desperate crime spree with the trap tightening, etc.

And it drives me batty. Why on earth would Louise hand her cash to ditzy sweet unreliable childlike Thelma, who cannot even hold onto their spare cash next to an open window in an earlier scene? ("We have sixty dollars... um, forty dollars...") Still one of my favorite darkly funny moments. So why does Louise say "guard this money," when it's LOUISE'S own money? Guard it from who? Not from Louise's boyfriend Jimmy, since he's already proven trustworthy enough to withdraw it and then drive hundreds of miles with the cash to hand it right into Louise's hands personally?

And still -- beyond that -- even if we accept that Louise gives Thelma all her money? Even for sweet, dumb Thelma, it's a stretch to believe she would leave a stack of cash in the hotel room when she goes to breakfast with Louise, especially knowing J.D. is a thief. GAH.

The only reason Louise hands Thelma her life savings is because the script needs that to happen so that the two women are trapped and the final act can start (with Thelma's convenience store robbery, which dooms them as established criminals and also tells the police exactly where they are).

So that will always bug me. I wish Callie Khouri had come up with another less obvious option. Like maybe Louise gets the money from Jimmy but J.D. steals it in a sleight of hand, either when they're at breakfast (a trip to the bathroom with her purse), or when she goes to the car, etc. Or he even straight-up charmingly (apologetically) robs them in the diner or in the car, just like he robbed the convenience stores. This would have also added heft to Thelma doing the exact same thing in the next scene, etc.

Anyway.

But despite my wall of text, this is a minor thing for me. I love the movie (and Khouri's script), I love the risks it takes, I love Thelma and Louise as characters, and the way their relationship changes and evolves. I love that Thelma's asshole husband Daryl isn't just one-dimensional but genuinely devastated and grief-stricken in the final act, for instance, as he realizes that she was unfaithful, robbed, and almost certainly doomed. I love the way the entire thing is a road trip that traps and frees them at the same time. I love the incredibly beautiful final moments in which the two women are now so close they are almost the same person in the end, so that by the time "The Ballad of Lucy Jordan" plays, their faces dissolve back and forth between one another, each almost melding into the other. I love the fact that by the time they kiss before driving off that cliff their relationship is indefinable; it's not exactly romantic, but the love there is so huge, so completely absolute, it defies simplistic definition. And I love that Harvey Keitel's sweet cop understands the fates that are driving them, and intuitively knows Louise from the first moment -- and yet cannot save her.

It's a great movie, one of my all-time favorites.

On 5/31/2021 at 10:42 AM, raven said:

One detail I appreciated is how both women become sunburned and messier the longer the ordeal goes on.  Very realistic when ordinarily Hollywood would want them still looking as fresh and full of make up as when they started their trip.

I love that too. I think it's not only important to their character journeys -- because they are each implied to be curling their hair and wearing that lipstick for the men in their lives and then they stop because they don't need to adhere to those standards anymore -- but it's also so beautiful antithetical to most Hollywood films.

Ironically, I still remember a movie review (by a male reviewer) of Thelma & Louise who went out of his way to bitchily comment in his review that "the actresses have never looked worse." It was such a typical sexist asshole take on the movie -- like the only purpose for Sarandon and Davis to be onscreen was for them to always look pretty for the audience. He was so personally offended that they end the movie sunburnt and unglamorous and stripped-down. Gah.

Quote

There's a longer ending which shows the car pretty much crashing and then Harvey's character watching at the edge of the cliff.  Sooo glad they chose the ending with the car suspended in the air - it's perfect as is and the longer ending puts the focus on the male characters, which is not the point of the movie.

I think this was such a smart move by Scott and editor Thom Noble, and I don't think the film would have become a hit or a classic with this original cut. The final edit with the women free, the Thunderbird suspended in midair over the canyon, is so gorgeous. Somehow it gives them a mythic near-happy ending. Because we do not see them die, they live forever.

On 5/31/2021 at 12:39 PM, Hiyo said:

The score in that final scene and during the end credits was also really great. Hans Zimmer knocked it out of the park for that one.

Yeah, I love the score too -- I wore it out when I bought it at the time on CD (a great mix of songs, plus "Thunderbird" is so haunting and beautiful). Back when Zimmer was still writing his scores by himself and not via an underpaid committee of underlings who will never get credit (sigh).

On 6/3/2021 at 7:41 PM, Sarah 103 said:

It also reminds me of the freeze frame at the end of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. You know the heroes are doomed and are not going to make it out alive, but at least you are spared the visual and can remember them alive. I liked the women sort of trade idealogical positions and views as the story progresses. Each one ends up with a different point of view from where they started. 

I know this is going to sound crazy, but the first time I saw Thelma and Louise it reminded me of a Western movie. 

First, great observation! It absolutely is a Western, right down to the dusty beautiful desert landscapes, the bandannas, the stickups, the pistols, and the shootouts. 

And I 100% agree on the freeze frame at the end and how important it is. For me it's the key to the entire film as a classic. Just as with Butch and Sundance, the fact that we don't see them die means they never die. They somehow live forever, high above that canyon, untouchable and uncatchable.

And I love the journeys of both women so much. I love how Thelma believably evolves from a sweet, abused, and childlike wife to a hard, strong, loving mature woman who takes care of Louise and tells her on that final drive of their journey. "I can't go back. Something's crossed over in me, and I can't go back." It's such an incredible evolution.

And Louise starts out so buttoned-up and tidy, hair in a tight twist, everything immaculate inside and out -- but by the end she is sunburned and wind-tossed in faded jeans and a loose tank top and she has given away all of her jewelry to the poor people she encountered on the way.  She has cast away everything material. And she is also somehow younger; she's not the leader anymore, Thelma is. It's wonderful.

I really think it's actually underrated in so many ways. It's a gorgeous movie about what happens when you dare to ask too many questions about why things are the way things are. What if you stop living by the rules? Thelma and Louise find out. And it's amazing.

Edited March 31, 2022 by paramitch
clarified toxic comment

[Shannon L.]

@paramitch I agree with just about everything you said (especially the part about handing over the money!), but I was wondering why you think the good cop (Harvey Keitel) was toxic?  He wasn't perfect, but I believe he genuinely wanted to get to the bottom of what happened and was willing to hear their story and didn't want them to get hurt.  As for JD, I appreciated the direction Brad was given to make him look shook about what happened after he left.  Brad played that really well.  No matter how brief the reaction was, JD had an instant of understanding how he's hurting people, even if it's not physically. 

And screw that male critic.  With the exception of the dirt on them, I thought they got better looking by the end. 

 

I mean, come on. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Shannon L.

[Spartan Girl]

57 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

@paramitch I agree with just about everything you said (especially the part about handing over the money!), but I was wondering why you think the good cop (Harvey Keitel) was toxic?  He wasn't perfect, but I believe he genuinely wanted to get to the bottom of what happened and was willing to hear their story and didn't want them to get hurt. 

I agree, he was pretty much the only decent male character in that whole movie.

[Sarah 103]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Like maybe Louise gets the money from Jimmy but J.D. steals it in a sleight of hand, either when they're at breakfast (a trip to the bathroom with her purse), or when she goes to the car, etc.

I love this idea. It works perfectly and solves the problem you pointed out. Narratively (I think that's the word/the right word), the movie still gets where it needs to go but not at the expense of one or two of the lead characters acting like total idiots. 

[festivus]

I saw this at the theater with my best friend. I totally agree with @paramitch about the ending shot. It's stayed with me all this time. I haven't seen this movie in 30 years and I still remember everything about it.

[Bastet]

I'm sure I've posted this before, but since discussion has been renewed ... All of you who love this film, especially the great ending, do yourselves the favor of reading Becky Aikman's Off the Cliff: How the Making of Thelma & Louise Drove Hollywood to the Edge.  She scored interviews with everyone involved, so is able to give a detailed account* of what it took to get this film made (and to hang onto that ending) and the process of shooting it.  This from the introductory chapter, about Callie Khouri deciding to write the script, sets the stage:

Quote

Callie tuned out the reality that no one who worked in movies would care about her and her half-formed vision.  Why should they?  Callie was a Hollywood nobody who knew nobody outside her circle of relative nobody friends; she was a woman in a man's town; she had no credits, no bona fides, no cred, no hope.  In a business full of boy wonders with filmmaking degrees, she was a college dropout who had never written anything more than a few unfinished short stories and a rejected TV script she had spitballed with a friend.  She had this embryonic idea for a screenplay, but unlike every film school grad trying to peddle a high-concept action picture about two guys who ... (fill in the blank), she had come up with the kind of movie that nobody actually made, that nobody had ever made.  Two women in a car--so elementary it was groundbreaking.

*But Geena Davis still will not say anything more about the re-shoot of the rape scene beyond being terrified:

Quote

"They didn't tell me to be rougher in so many words," ["Harlan" actor Timothy] Carhart says.  "Ridley gave me a certain allowance to go for it.  He did it with a wink and a nod.  It went beyond the action to a realm that was a really ugly part of humanity."  He saw how it affected Geena.  "Geena is really brilliant at the kinesthetic part of acting.  She's really emotionally vulnerable to suggestion.  I guess it was pretty rough for her."

So much so that she walked off the set, clearly upset, a stunning departure for the usually accommodating actress.  All these years later, she is still reluctant to discuss it, beyond saying that she felt genuinely terrified, and Carhart still expresses regret that she was placed in such a hostile scenario.  They parted without speaking after the scene.  He called her later to apologize.

To get back to the positive, I'll end with Geena's first time meeting Susan, when Ridley had asked them to the production office for an in-depth discussion of what felt right and what didn't in the script:

Quote

Geena bound into the room thoroughly prepared to play the flaky Thelma but still thinking she could have been right for Louise.  She thought the script was so first rate that there were only a few adjustments she wanted to suggest, a slight rewording of a sentence here or there, and she had a game plan in her notes for presenting each of them indirectly, so as not to offend.  One she decided to postpone and bring up later on the set.  Another she would toss off as a kind of throwaway joke.  "I had all these girly ways," she says.  "I would disguise each one and make it as non-threatening as possible."

Susan blew Geena's approach out of the water.  The New York actress strode into the meeting, sat down at the conference table, opened her copy of the script and said, "On page one, I don't think I would do that."  Boom ... no  nonsense, just like that.  And "Maybe we could take out this line or move it to a later scene".  Pleasantly, but with authority, Susan dissected the entire script and made pointed suggestions while Ridley listened agreeably.

Geena's jaw was on the ground.  She would never forget the way first female costar handled herself.  People can be like her?  Geena gaped.  God, what a way to be.  "There is nothing calculated about the way Susan is in the world," Geena says now.  "She just ... is.  She's not going to equivocate or be coy.  She just says what she wants, and people go ... oh, okay."
<snip>
It hit Geena like the beam of a klieg light from the moment she and Susan met: Are you kidding that I could play Louise?  Susan was so self-possessed, so mature and centered.  She was Louise and then some.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Bastet

[paramitch]

10 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

@paramitch I agree with just about everything you said (especially the part about handing over the money!), but I was wondering why you think the good cop (Harvey Keitel) was toxic?  He wasn't perfect, but I believe he genuinely wanted to get to the bottom of what happened and was willing to hear their story and didn't want them to get hurt.  As for JD, I appreciated the direction Brad was given to make him look shook about what happened after he left.  Brad played that really well.  No matter how brief the reaction was, JD had an instant of understanding how he's hurting people, even if it's not physically. 

And screw that male critic.  With the exception of the dirt on them, I thought they got better looking by the end. 

 

I mean, come on. 

Oh, no -- apologies! I didn't think Keitel was toxic. I thought he was an archetype ("The Good Cop"). But not toxic -- I loved his character. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. But yeah, everybody else was pretty much toxic! Except Michael Madsen -- Jimmy's not really a bad guy. He's just a little unwilling to commit, has a little bit of a temper, a little weak.

And I agree, I think they both look so real and gorgeous by the end. I love the way the artifice is stripped away and they are just who they are, no more lipstick or jewelry or adornment.

That's interesting about Pitt -- I do think he's an incredibly charming thief in this. He's basically a textbook rogue archetype.

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I love this idea. It works perfectly and solves the problem you pointed out. Narratively (I think that's the word/the right word), the movie still gets where it needs to go but not at the expense of one or two of the lead characters acting like total idiots. 

Thanks! Now where's my Oscar, darn it... 😁

4 hours ago, festivus said:

I saw this at the theater with my best friend. I totally agree with @paramitch about the ending shot. It's stayed with me all this time. I haven't seen this movie in 30 years and I still remember everything about it.

Me too! Although I've seen it several times since.

What's haunting for me on rewatch is that gorgeous long slow opening shot of the empty road and the mountain ahead -- and that's their final stretch at the very end of the film. The end of the road.

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm sure I've posted this before, but since discussion has been renewed ... All of you who love this film, especially the great ending, do yourselves the favor of reading Becky Aikman's Off the Cliff: How the Making of Thelma & Louise Drove Hollywood to the Edge.  She scored interviews with everyone involved, so is able to give a detailed account* of what it took to get this film made (and to hang onto that ending) and the process of shooting it.  This from the introductory chapter, about Callie Khouri deciding to write the script, sets the stage:

*But Geena Davis still will not say anything more about the re-shoot of the rape scene beyond being terrified:

To get back to the positive, I'll end with Geena's first time meeting Susan, when Ridley had asked them to the production office for an in-depth discussion of what felt right and what didn't in the script:

I love that anecdote from Geena Davis about Sarandon! That's wonderful. I'll check out that book -- it looks fabulous!

The attempted rape scene is really hard to watch, and I'm sorry to hear that it was a deliberately hostile filming situation for Geena (AGHGHG, not cool, Ridley or Timothy). My one minor complaint about the way Ridley handles that scene is that there is a prurient element to it to me -- it's horrifying but it's also kind of male-gazey, if that makes sense? The way it's shot and framed, with so much focus on half-naked Thelma, has always bothered me a little. But I don't know if I'm being oversensitive or it's just me.

But on the positive side -- some favorite aspects of the movie for me:

1. Dramatically, I love so much that we never do find out what happened to Louise in Texas. It's so much better that we don't know. So many screenwriters would have had the Big Reveal, the big monologue about What Happened in Texas. So I absolutely love that Louise is pure iron and will never discuss it. The moment she tells Thelma "I won't talk about that" -- it's so incredibly powerful.
2. I always love the relationship between Louise and Hal the cop. There's just this instant, warm connection. He instantly seems to understand her, and the scene of him walking around her empty home is always curiously poignant for me. He really cares about her, and Keitel does a great job of showing that.
3. Lucinda Jenney (a terrific character actress) is great as Lena the waitress (from the bar). I love the fact that she's so smart and observant, and then absolutely spot-on about both Harlan the rapist AND about Louise's personality. (Timothy Carhart is another Hey It's That Guy character actor that I love, and he was terrifying and so slimy as Harlan).
4. The scene of the last dawn, when we realize that Louise has pulled over from their long night drive just to stand and watch the sun rise, always gives me goosebumps. It's just such a lovely moment and also breaks my heart because I think Louise knows they're not getting away.
5. Thelma's journey is incredible. The person she is in the beginning is an infant compared to the strong woman she is at the end, and yet they are both believably the same person.
6. There's this gorgeous subtle detail to Thelma that she seems sort of starved for treats and sweetness but she hides it -- the way she keeps taking little nips of the candybar in the first scene then putting it away -- and then later, she does similar things with the little tiny bottles of booze. There's just something kind of childlike and wonderful about that to me.
7. Louise looking at the old woman through the window of the store/diner is another moment that always gets me. And then, later, her giving away her jewelry to the old man. There's such a powerful sort of big picture sense of the mystical to this movie to me -- like the women are ascending in this mythic way.

Thanks for the conversation! I was just thinking about the movie the other day, so I was tickled to find the topic here.

Edited March 31, 2022 by paramitch
Clarified bullet list

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I love that anecdote from Geena Davis about Sarandon!

Here's another good one:

Quote

When the crew broke for lunch [before shooting the scene where they bop along to "The Way You Do The Things You Do"], Ridley pulled Geena aside.  "This afternoon," he said, "you two are driving along and listening music and you are feeling just great.  This is the time when it all feels right.  So what would you think if your character just sat up on the back of the seat, and you took your top off?  You're exhilarated and you're throwing your shirt around or something."

"You know what?" Geena fumbled.  "I think they need me at lunch.  Ah ... I think I better go."  She cleared her throat.  "I think they want me to eat.  Yes!  They want me to eat."  She kicked herself that she'd bungled the moment, that she couldn't come up with a better excuse to avoid the question, let alone answer it.

Geena found Susan at a picnic table.  "Susan!" she said in an exaggerated whisper.  "Ridley says for this scene he wants me to take my top off."

Susan stopped midbite.  "Oh, for heaven's sake," she said.  "Can you think of any reason why you should?"

"No," Geena gulped.

"Then that's exploitation," Susan said.  She marched over to Ridley and said flatly, "Ridley, Geena is not taking her top off."  That was that.

Susan walked straight back, and Geena thanked her.  But she kicked herself again for not finding a way to stand up for herself.  "As it turned out, he was not bothered by the answer," she says.  "It was just so built in for me to be worried about offending anybody, or somebody not liking me because I said no."
<snip>
After eight years in the business, this was the first time Geena had found herself every day on a movie set with another woman, an equal, someone to emulate.  "I wanted people to like me, above everything," Geena says.  "I always had to make sure to dance around to get what I want.  Ever since Susan, I've always tried to be like her."

 

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

The scene of the last dawn, when we realize that Louise has pulled over from their long night drive just to stand and watch the sun rise, always gives me goosebumps. It's just such a lovely moment and also breaks my heart because I think Louise knows they're not getting away.

That scene was Susan's idea.  She wanted a moment out of the car, a little bit of quiet reflection on what's happening.  To her surprise, Ridley agreed and set up a night shot in Arches National Park.  "Actors offer suggestions all the time, but lighting something in the desert that takes seven hours was a huge thing," she says.  "Ridley could be a great collaborator."

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

Louise looking at the old woman through the window of the store/diner is another moment that always gets me. And then, later, her giving away her jewelry to the old man. There's such a powerful sort of big picture sense of the mystical to this movie to me -- like the women are ascending in this mythic way.

Those were also added on set; Louise trading away her jewelry was Susan's idea, and adding the old women in the diner window was Ridley's (the script just had the part where she starts to put lipstick on and changes her mind).

Edited March 31, 2022 by Bastet

[Hiyo]

Quote

I agree, he was pretty much the only decent male character in that whole movie.

Possibly also the only one who at least seemed to acknowledge how much the legal system was stacked against these women. 

[paramitch]

11 hours ago, Bastet said:

Here's another good one:

That scene was Susan's idea.  She wanted a moment out of the car, a little bit of quiet reflection on what's happening.  To her surprise, Ridley agreed and set up a night shot in Arches National Park.  "Actors offer suggestions all the time, but lighting something in the desert that takes seven hours was a huge thing," she says.  "Ridley could be a great collaborator."

Those were also added on set; Louise trading away her jewelry was Susan's idea, and adding the old women in the diner window was Ridley's (the script just had the part where she starts to put lipstick on and changes her mind).

I'm conflicted on Susan as a person a little bit but will always love her as an actress. (I'm super-liberal, but she's challenging — a friend of a good friend worked for her about 20 years ago for a few years in their inner household, before her split from Robbins, and let's just say, she's one of those people utterly oblivious to their privilege. Like, she'd picket about workers' rights but not tip, or complain about why the family needed to be vaccinated, etc). Not in an evil way, just in a very celebrity way -- they were getting ready for a trip to Africa with the kids, and let's just say that Robbins was easygoing but Sarandon was a nightmare. The friend's stories were both hilarious and maddening.)

Regardless, she's a brilliant actress, and I really love so many of the thoughtful little moments that turned out to be directly from Susan's input. Her love for Louise as her character is palpable and made this movie special in so many ways. I also adore that she and Sheena are still friends.

24 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Possibly also the only one who at least seemed to acknowledge how much the legal system was stacked against these women. 

Oh, that's such a good point. And that's one of the most heartbreaking things about this movie to me. And there's that added punch that Louise (it seems clear) was victimized twice -- someone (or someones) hurt or victimized her, and it's heavily implied that law enforcement was zero help and may have even further victimized her.

But as a woman who lived in Texas for several years... if I ever end up in Thelma & Louise's shoes (fingers crossed I don't), I'd still skip Texas 20+ years later. If you're female and at the mercy of more powerful men, it's just not a state to roll the dice in, even today.

[Bastet]

Yeah, I know that about Susan Sarandon, so I feel the same way - have a few issues with her as a person (but also absolutely love some things about her as a person), but outright adore her as an actor.  The way she invests herself in her characters and stands up for them is wonderful and paid off so well here.  Same with her standing up for and supporting Geena.  And Lucinda Jenney noted how great it was that Susan hung out with her between takes, something she wasn't used to with lead actors.

Trivia re. Detective Slocumb:  Scott Glenn was offered the role, but decided to do Backdraft instead (this was a recurring theme; every woman in Hollywood wanted the title roles, but a lot of male actors they auditioned opted for Backdraft).  Sam Elliott was considered but ultimately not approached.  Hector Elizondo, Robert Forster, and Clarence Williams III read for it.  Harvey Keitel's agent called Ridley after Harvey saw the script when a friend up for one of the parts shared it with him.  Ridley loved the idea of him playing against type -- "The perception of Harvey was the antithesis of what I wanted him for."  Harvey drove some people nuts (most notably Stephen Tobolowsky), but he took seriously his responsibility to represent some decency and caring and he acknowledged some of the things this script was saying really needed to be said.

Also, Slocumb laughing at Darryl was because Harvey kept cracking up at Chris McDonald (as did Ridley; he'd pretty much fall off the dolly after every take).  So Ridley just decided to use the takes, figuring that works for how the detective would react to such a dunderhead.  "You're standing in your pizza" was an ad-lib (Keitel is famous/infamous for improvisation).  As was Slocumb beating J.D. with his own hat.

[JAYJAY1979]

I remember my mom remarking how stupid Thelma was...had she has common sense...they wouldn't have needed to go on the run.

 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

I remember my mom remarking how stupid Thelma was...had she has common sense...they wouldn't have needed to go on the run.

Wow, way to miss the entire point.

Beginning of the film:

Louise: If you weren't concerned with having so much fun, we wouldn't be here right now.
Thelma: Just what is that supposed to mean?
Louise: It just means shut up, Thelma.
Thelma: So this is all my fault, is it?

End of the film:

Thelma: I know this whole thing was my fault, I know it.
Louise: Dammit, Thelma, if there's one thing you should know by now, this wasn't your fault!

[paramitch]

Thank you so much for sharing all the wonderful anecdotes, @Bastet! It's so special and has really spotlighted how much the actresses and their intelligence brought to the film.

On 3/31/2022 at 5:22 PM, Bastet said:

Yeah, I know that about Susan Sarandon, so I feel the same way - have a few issues with her as a person (but also absolutely love some things about her as a person), but outright adore her as an actor.  The way she invests herself in her characters and stands up for them is wonderful and paid off so well here.  Same with her standing up for and supporting Geena.  And Lucinda Jenney noted how great it was that Susan hung out with her between takes, something she wasn't used to with lead actors.

I think Susan is a brilliant and timelessly beautiful actress. And I respect her social activism and think her heart is usually in the right place, let's just put it that way. Sometimes I think she gets in her own way, especially in public, but hey, this is my thing when people expect actors to be perfectly serene, sedate, well-behaved, people -- when that is their antithesis! They are artists first and foremost. I love that and enjoy the unpredictability of it. Some of my best friends are working actors, and they are smart, vibrant, driven, and so much fun. And never boring. 

I absolutely love hearing that Susan hung out with Lucinda Jenney! That's wonderful to hear (and she's such a good actress -- she was incredible in a guest stint on "Homicide: Life on the Street").

Meanwhile, do not get me started on how much I adore Geena Davis (and how much she has done for women in film). She's a brilliant, kind, incredibly cool person. I've always loved her. And I love that she was inspired and galvanized by Susan and how she stood up for her.

Quote

Geena found Susan at a picnic table.  "Susan!" she said in an exaggerated whisper.  "Ridley says for this scene he wants me to take my top off."

Susan stopped midbite.  "Oh, for heaven's sake," she said.  "Can you think of any reason why you should?"

"No," Geena gulped.

"Then that's exploitation," Susan said.  She marched over to Ridley and said flatly, "Ridley, Geena is not taking her top off."  That was that.

Susan walked straight back, and Geena thanked her.  But she kicked herself again for not finding a way to stand up for herself.  "As it turned out, he was not bothered by the answer," she says.  "It was just so built in for me to be worried about offending anybody, or somebody not liking me because I said no."
<snip>
After eight years in the business, this was the first time Geena had found herself every day on a movie set with another woman, an equal, someone to emulate.  "I wanted people to like me, above everything," Geena says.  "I always had to make sure to dance around to get what I want.  Ever since Susan, I've always tried to be like her."

This is one of the best stories I never heard about Thelma & Louise -- thank you so much for sharing it! I love how fierce, kind and supportive Sarandon comes off  in these stories, and love how she protected Geena. (I mean, Ridley's idea here? EYE-ROLLINGLY SEXIST AND BAD. Jesus H. Christ.) The funny thing is, the "The Way You Do the Things You Do" moment that made it on film, with just Thelma singing along happily in the moment is so sweet and charming.

Quote

Trivia re. Detective Slocumb:  Scott Glenn was offered the role, but decided to do Backdraft instead (this was a recurring theme; every woman in Hollywood wanted the title roles, but a lot of male actors they auditioned opted for Backdraft).  Sam Elliott was considered but ultimately not approached.  Hector Elizondo, Robert Forster, and Clarence Williams III read for it.  Harvey Keitel's agent called Ridley after Harvey saw the script when a friend up for one of the parts shared it with him.  Ridley loved the idea of him playing against type -- "The perception of Harvey was the antithesis of what I wanted him for."  Harvey drove some people nuts (most notably Stephen Tobolowsky), but he took seriously his responsibility to represent some decency and caring and he acknowledged some of the things this script was saying really needed to be said.

This is fascinating as always.

I love Keitel, and he's another great example of someone who is an absolute live wire wild card and unpredictable artist. This can also lead to some really goofball stuff but he's really passionate about what he does and it shows.

I know he's supposed to be eccentric and slightly challenging to work with though. My favorite story ever about Harvey is from when he was working on Jane Campion's Holy Smoke with Kate Winslet (after his absolutely lovely work in Campion's The Piano).

Here's what Winslet had to say -- it's too good not to quote verbatim.

Quote

To facilitate a certain scene during the production of Jane Campion's Holy Smoke!, Harvey Keitel, famed for his love of improvisation, asked co-star Kate Winslet to pretend that she was the owner of a dying dog played, of course, by Harvey Keitel. 

"Jane Campion, who's the only other person in the room, is going, 'Oh my god, that is fantastic. Okay, so, okay, let's get a bit of music,'" Winslet later recalled. "She runs over - Enya, guys... So Enya's going in the background and I'm standing there like this, and Harvey goes [whining, whimpering]. At this point, I'm standing there. I'm literally peeing my pants. I get down on my knees and 'Shhh,' and I'm kind of laughing, 'Shhh, it's going to be okay.' And then Jane suddenly goes, 'Use your dialect.' So I'm going [as a Kiwi], 'Oh, it's going to be okay, Harvey. Shhhh - not Harvey, a dog. Dog...'

"This, I kid you not, goes on for about five tracks of Enya, and I'm just thinking, 'Look, just die, will you? Just die!' 

"But I was still kind of battling with these inner feelings of self-doubt, like, 'Kate, you're so cynical, don't laugh at this. This is Harvey Keitel for God's sake! Stop laughing, take this seriously.' And I just couldn't. 

"I'm going, 'Oh, shhhh.' Harvey's still going. still dying, and then eventually he just died. He went like this [whimper, thump]. and then I sort of went, 'Okay, so, um, I think he's dead.' Jane got up and Harvey stands up and dusts himself off and goes, 'That was interesting, that was interesting.' And I went, 'Yeah, it was. Can I just go to the bathroom?' And I left the room and I just fell about laughing."

So now every time I hear about Harvey Keitel I think about him pretending to be Kate Winslet's dying dog, and her almost peeing herself laughing while going, "Just die! Just DIE!"

But I think he's a brilliant actor, and he was wonderful here. I almost always love it when actors are cast against type (well, talented ones) -- Keitel conveyed a lot of warmth and sensitivity here (I absolutely adore him in The Piano as well). His "Happy birthday, lady," in Louise's empty kitchen is always so quietly sad for her. And he's also really funny and charming throughout as well (I love his "My lord" when viewing Thelma's robbery video).

Quote

Also, Slocumb laughing at Darryl was because Harvey kept cracking up at Chris McDonald (as did Ridley; he'd pretty much fall off the dolly after every take).  So Ridley just decided to use the takes, figuring that works for how the detective would react to such a dunderhead.  "You're standing in your pizza" was an ad-lib (Keitel is famous/infamous for improvisation).  As was Slocumb beating J.D. with his own hat.

I love McDonald and he's such a good actor (and reportedly a delightful human being). I remember hearing that his tripping on the stuff in his driveway wasn't planned and he just went with it. I thought he was so good in the film because there is a sense that this silly, pompous man-child is acting a role -- he is acting like the kind of person he thinks he is supposed to be.

I read an interview with him on a Thelma & Louise retrospective where he admitted that even all these years later, sometimes he will pull up to a light, and a woman pulls up in a car next to him, looks over, and GLARES at him, and he's all, "OH GOD, she's thinking of Thelma & Louise!")

On 3/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

I remember my mom remarking how stupid Thelma was...had she has common sense...they wouldn't have needed to go on the run.

Hmm. I don't think Thelma is actually stupid, so much as very young, vulnerable, insecure, and unaware of herself.

In the beginning, she is the classic example of someone who went from daughter to wife with zero transition. She is childlike and insecure and constantly seeking her husband's approval. I don't think she's abused (although it's arguable), but I do think she has a miserable life with Daryl. But as Louise points out, "You get what you settle for." There is the sense that Thelma has done this to herself -- she has choices but refuses to act on them, that she is sort of actively colluding in this life she has built for herself. She only rebels in tiny ways -- little nips of a candybar, a weekend trip with Thelma, etc.

And I don't think what happened was remotely her fault. She has some drinks and dances in public with a guy. She's there with her friend and wants to let her hair down. She doesn't expect anything bad to happen. She's naive to think that (and it's so upsetting to watch her let this man subtly maneuver her for his own satisfaction and eventually out the door so he can rape her uninterrupted). But she did NOTHING WRONG. And I think that kind of victim-blaming is really harmful.

Thelma doesn't know herself or her own mind at all. Is she stupid? I don't think so. I think her brain is simply unused. Look at what happens when events push the women to dig down within themselves.

When J.D. steals their money, Thelma digs down and manages to be strong for the first time. She galvanizes Louise to keep going and then goes in and (sigh) robs the convenience store. And hey, on the positive side -- she does an incredible job. Based on her one conversation with J.D., she effortlessly recites his script and robs the store calmly, coolly, and like an old pro.

She continues to evolve quietly the farther they journey from there. To the point that she tells Louise, quietly, "Something's crossed over in me, and I can't go back. I mean, I just couldn't live." She isn't the sweet little girl willing to put up with Daryl's bullshit anymore.

And it's Thelma who is willing to keep on driving -- who's willing to go off the edge of the Grand Canyon rather than return to a world of Daryls and rapists and male cops who will victimize her a second time.

On 3/31/2022 at 8:12 PM, Bastet said:

Wow, way to miss the entire point.

Beginning of the film:

Louise: If you weren't concerned with having so much fun, we wouldn't be here right now.
Thelma: Just what is that supposed to mean?
Louise: It just means shut up, Thelma.
Thelma: So this is all my fault, is it?

End of the film:

Thelma: I know this whole thing was my fault, I know it.
Louise: Dammit, Thelma, if there's one thing you should know by now, this wasn't your fault!

100% agreed. It wasn't Thelma's fault. It was Harlan's fault. The rapist.

And speaking of Thelma's smarts, to bring it back to a happier moment, let's not forget my favorite Thelma moment ever:

Louise: Thelma, listen up, now. If you even think he knows, I mean, even if you're not sure, I want you to hang up, you understand?
Thelma: [dials the number]
Darryl: [exchanges looks with police, then answers phone] Hello.
Thelma: Darryl, it's me.
Darryl: [with forced cheer] Thelma, hello!
Thelma: [hangs up and faces Louise soberly] He knows.

It was just SO SMART and wonderfully written! So many scripts would have had us tensely waiting for some stupid conversation where Thelma doesn't know they're being traced, etc. Instead, Callie Khouri gives us THAT. It's fantastic.

Edited April 2, 2022 by paramitch
Fixed Geena's name as NOT Thelma! :D

[Shannon L.]

Thelma was a little too trustworthy, too. She wanted to see the good in people.  I know she just had a really bad encounter with a man, but JD was nice to her and because of that (and other things ;) she momentarily slipped back into that trusting, naive person she started out as.  That was the last straw-the trigger that flipped the switch on her finally becoming her own person--a strong, fearless, self confidant woman.  That scene needed to happen, not just because it sets up the rest of the movie, but because it completes her transformation.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Shannon L.

[Hiyo]

Also, he looked like Brad Pitt.

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

His "Happy birthday, lady," in Louise's empty kitchen is always so quietly sad for her.

That was another of Harvey's ad-libs.

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

Thelma was a little too trustworthy, too. She wanted to see the good in people.  I know she just had a really bad encounter with a man, but JD was nice to her and because of that (and other things ;) she momentarily slipped back into that trusting, naive person she started out as.  That was the last straw-the trigger that flipped the switch on her finally becoming her own person--a strong, fearless, self confidant woman.  That scene needed to happen, not just because it sets up the rest of the movie, but because it completes her transformation.

Oh, definitely. And I agree that JD was a step forward AND back. (Loved Louise going, "You finally got laid proper!")

I mean, there's a point where she's back there canoodling like a high school kid and Louise and Jimmy catch them. Because she IS a kid at heart. She never evolved. She was one of those heartbreaking girls who married straight out of high school to the first guy who was nice to her and who seemed "strong" or "like daddy." Gah.

I agree on all counts -- she needed to be betrayed to come into her own. She's not someone's wife or a thief's side-piece. She's more than that. beautifully put.

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

Also, he looked like Brad Pitt.

Like, yeah, there's that. Although I am weird because Brad is TOO beautiful for me (I just don't go for buff skinny guys) but I would have done very naughty things to both Keitel or Madsen.

2 minutes ago, Bastet said:

That was another of Harvey's ad-libs.

Oh, man. Of COURSE it was. That's just beautiful. I love that he was that connected and thoughtful about his character. 

[Bastet]

Yeah, I think almost all the changes the actors and director made to the script made it better.  Callie is really snarky about Susan's role in making changes - "Susan saved the picture.  We've marveled for years at what kind of a ham-fisted mockery we would have made of it if it had not been for Susan" - but I think the original script was something wonderful and necessary, and the finished product became something even better with the actors' input. 

I understand Callie's general frustration, like any writer's -- she lives and breathes it for months or years on end, and then has to turn it over and wait to see what all the people who actually get to be on the set do with it.  Add in the special circumstances, where she's made a movie about women, and not only gets told she can't direct it, but Ridley Scott of all people is going to be in charge of these women?  And then when it's a hit, more publications interview the stars than the writer, so there's disproportionate coverage of Susan's role in shaping the story.

I get it.  But several crew members (and, remember, these are men) thought Susan's shadow direction kept the performances just where they needed to be.  "Because this was a women's film, and Ridley is about as far from a feminist as you could get," says one, "Susan was leading the way."

[paramitch]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Yeah, I think almost all the changes the actors and director made to the script made it better.  Callie is really snarky about Susan's role in making changes - "Susan saved the picture.  We've marveled for years at what kind of a ham-fisted mockery we would have made of it if it had not been for Susan" - but I think the original script was something wonderful and necessary, and the finished product became something even better with the actors' input. 

I understand Callie's general frustration, like any writer's -- she lives and breathes it for months or years on end, and then has to turn it over and wait to see what all the people who actually get to be on the set do with it.  Add in the special circumstances, where she's made a movie about women, and not only gets told she can't direct it, but Ridley Scott of all people is going to be in charge of these women?  And then when it's a hit, more publications interview the stars than the writer, so there's disproportionate coverage of Susan's role in shaping the story.

I get it.  But several crew members (and, remember, these are men) thought Susan's shadow direction kept the performances just where they needed to be.  "Because this was a women's film, and Ridley is about as far from a feminist as you could get," says one, "Susan was leading the way."

Yeah, I agree.

I respect Khouri a lot-- I've read her interviews and retrospectives, I follow her on social media, and have always respected her so much. She always comes across as a smart, passionate woman who's committed to enacting social change, especially for women.

BUT. My impression from that limited perch is that she can be very married to her own POV, and that this can be a tremendous strength or asset depending on the project. And she was going in as someone without the credentials.

She seems defensive in retrospect about that but it's not a diss, just the situation. She was someone who had  a few connections (mostly Pam Tillis) and was coming in pretty blind. And she wrote a wonderful script.

But it's interesting. I'm also a big fan of SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, her big follow-up project -- it's charming, witty, and sweet, but I think it's pretty demonstrative -- central character is very meek and childlike, with a very Southern paternalistic father. It more deeply explores that sort of Thelma-character as a woman sort of built/trapped by a smothering southern dad. It's fun, great dialogue, superb cast, but for me Kyra Sedgwick is the bomb as the heroine's sister, and she honestly almost kills the movie (in the best way) because I wanted it to be about HER, not the slightly wimpy Julia Roberts heroine. What's interesting about that though is the family is very affluent, and I missed the connection to working-class characters that she gave to Thelma and Louise.

So -- I think the film needed Susan (and Geena and many others) and honestly probably wouldn't have been a pop culture blip without the perfect combination we got here. It needed these people to blossom the way it did.

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by paramitch

[Hiyo]

Callie learnt the hard way I guess, that in Hollywood, in the movie, the director rules (as opposed to TV, where the writer(s) rule there).

[Bastet]

In promoting her memoir, Dying of Politeness, Geena Davis talked with NPR about what we already knew from her interviews for Becky Aikman's book discussed extensively above:  Susan Sarandon "had the largest impact on my life of anyone that I've known":

Quote

"Watching the way Susan walked through the world, how she said what she thinks without any qualifiers in front of it," she adds. "Everything I said started with, 'This is probably a bad idea ... You're going to hate it. Probably. But what would you think? Possibly?' And she never did that. And somehow I'd never been exposed extensively to a woman who moves through the world like that. And it was like a lesson every day in how to speak up for yourself."

She reiterated this in a Vanity Fair interview as well:

Quote

Vanity Fair: The title really encompasses your personality throughout the book and the way you tried to placate other people’s emotions over the years. Do you feel like you’ve gotten to a place where you’ve been able to prioritize your own feelings?

Geena Davis: I’m definitely much better at it. In fact, 10 years ago, Susan Sarandon and I were doing a photo shoot for the 20th anniversary of Thelma & Louise, and we stepped onto the set and in unison, we said, “Could you raise the camera, please?” [To focus on their faces instead of on their chests.] And I was like, “Oh, I’ve finally become you,” [to Susan]. Because I would never have said something like that without “I’m sorry, would you mind?” But Susan never uses qualifiers before what she says, and that’s my goal. I had never spent any time around a woman who moves through the world like that, where she feels very comfortable saying what she thinks, what she wants and also seeing that nobody’s reacting. That also proved not only can you do that stuff, but the world isn’t going to end if you actually say what you want or think.

I don't know if we'll learn anything new about the film, but I always enjoy hearing/reading what Geena or Susan have to say about it.

[paramitch]

Thanks to YouTube creepy AI intuitiveness, I've just watched several interviews with Sarandon and Davis about Thelma & Louise and man, I have a really hard time with how Susan Sarandon talks about the script! I mean, she is visibly dismissive and sort of rude about the script, and keeps pushing at this idea of how she saved the movie at all these moments that discount the script entirely.

Sure, I absolutely believe that this is possible, but it definitely changes the Hollywood vision of Thelma & Louise. Thoughts?:

She does it a few times again here:

I don't have a particular favorite here (beyond Davis, because, come on), but Sarandon and Khouri proceed to passive-aggressively get points off each other going forward.

I mean, this script won an Academy Award and was a groundbreaker for women. Sarandon's treatment (much as I love her, despite some of her politics, which I do think have come from privilege and hurt women) is something I respect but regret. She over and over again dismisses Callie Khouri's script. And is fairly referenced as adding:

• Louise's Character and POV      
• Louise's handling of the shooting
• Louise's handling of the final scene with her boyfriend
• The quiet Thelma sunrise scene
• The final kiss with Thelma (which I love so much)

I mean, the script has been analyzed, discussed, etc. What I find interesting is -- did Callie deserve that Oscar? If all these elements came from Susan, that's ... frustrating and vindicating at the same time.

PS -- Full disclosure that I don't think changes this, but just FYI, I know someone who worked for Susan (and Tim) late 90s/early 00s, an experience that was both humbling (they both want to make the world better) and frustrating (they both have no concept of real life anymore and expect 1st class every step of the way). 

[EtheltoTillie]

Just catching up on this now.  These are great posts, @Bastet and @paramitch.  lots of interesting background.  I also tried watching Rocky Horror for the first time the other day, and well, the less said the better.  I'm too old for that.

I have seen this movie only once, back when it came out, but it sticks with me.  But it seems like it would be worth rewatching now.   After I finish with the new season of The Crown, maybe.  (OT:  Which is fantastic so far--three episodes in for me.)

Edited November 10, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[Ms Blue Jay]

There's a documentary about this movie:

Thelma & Louise: The Last Journey - 2003 Directed by Charles de Lauzirika

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Sure, I absolutely believe that this is possible, but it definitely changes the Hollywood vision of Thelma & Louise. Thoughts?

I haven't yet watched the interviews in order to comment on the way Susan discusses the changes to the script (but I have no trouble believing she's overly dismissive of Callie; Callie resents her for a reason beyond her own myopia about the script), but the book about the making of this film makes clear, from everyone (well, other than Callie, heh) that Susan indeed made a lot of changes for the better, both in her initial meeting with Ridley and then during filming.  She also got Ridley to change his mind on some of his worst impulses; when even the crew guys are proud to say an actor - particularly a female actor - made the film better with their input, it's not just a tinker here and there.  Like all great films, Thelma & Louise needed a whole bunch of things to come together just right to be the classic it is, but Susan Sarandon is one of the most important of those things, for reasons beyond her performance.

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

What I find interesting is -- did Callie deserve that Oscar?

A lot of the best little moments in the film were not scripted, they came from Ridley or, usually, the actors.  But that's just true of filmmaking; there's a reason directors generally keep writers off the set (indeed, Callie was only allowed to be present one day).  But, a long time ago, I read the script as Callie wrote it, and still liked it a lot; the overall story and characterization were something sadly lacking in American cinema, and powerful just on the page.  That's Oscar worthy. 

Callie knew virtually nothing about the industry, which helped her write without second-guessing herself, knowing studios would object to x,y, and z when it came time to pitch this.  But it also left her in for a rude awakening about the bitter experience of handing over your art to other artists, with no control over how they alter it.

[paramitch]

Thanks, @Bastet! I misinterpreted it and was being a bit hasty there -- I wasn't thinking clearly enough about it and was sort of taking it as shallow digs, when she's simply taking credit for what she actually did, and she's certainly allowed to do that. 

I feel a little bad for Khouri, but on the other hand, everything Sarandon did absolutely did enrich and deepen the film, and make it better, and I respect that a lot. (Louise giving her jewelry to the old people near the end was another Susan moment, right?)

I also respect the fact that Sarandon advocated constantly for Geena Davis. One of my favorite anecdotes above is when Davis describes this day when Ridley sort of airily decided that Thelma should exuberantly take her top off while they were driving and wave her shirt around or something. And Geena was appropriately horrified but didn't know how to say no to this legendary director-guy, so she kind of goes and whispers it to Susan, like, "Oh my God, he wants me to take my shirt off!" and Susan reacted instantly with, "You are not doing that," and basically goes and tells Ridley it's not happening. And Ridley just kind of shrugged and went, "Oh, okay."

I mean, that's the side of Susan that I love hearing about. It's just so interesting to see Geena describe herself as this rather shy, timid person because she is so brilliant, and she has done so much since for women in film.

[Bastet]

18 hours ago, paramitch said:

(Louise giving her jewelry to the old people near the end was another Susan moment, right?)

To the old man, yes, Susan came up with that.  (I remember my friend was sad her engagement ring was in there, and I just looked at her like how the hell are we friends?)

18 hours ago, paramitch said:

I mean, that's the side of Susan that I love hearing about. It's just so interesting to see Geena describe herself as this rather shy, timid person because she is so brilliant, and she has done so much since for women in film.

I have a longstanding affection for when shows/movies featuring female friendships I like result in friendships between the women playing those characters that last long after the project is done -- seeing Sharon Gless and Tyne Daly (Cagney & Lacey) together makes me downright giddy (and when I saw them together in person at a Feminist Majority event, I absolutely freaked my shit).  So for Geena Davis to say Susan Sarandon "had the largest impact on my life of anyone that I've known" really moves me.  Because the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media is so incredibly important -- I don't know that most understand its impact, but its research has resulted in so many specific, identifiable changes in projects -- and there's a degree to which Geena's fortitude to launch that tremendous project starts back in that production office, with her watching in awe as Susan simply and firmly expressed what she thought and wanted and realizing a woman can do that in this industry, and it works.

[BetterButter]

Amanda Seyfried and Evan Rachel Wood Workshopping a ‘Thelma & Louise’ Musical Adaptation