House Stark: Winter Is Coming

[bijoux]

I ran across the battle at the Tower of Joy on TV the other night and after appreciating how big of a BAMF Arthur Dayne was, something left me uneasy. Howland Reed saves Ned by stabbing Dayne in the back. Which makes sense because they stood no chance otherwise. What caused unease is that Ned witnessed his friend stabbing a dude in the back and didn't seem to hold that against him, yet never once did he pause to think, hey, maybe Jaime didn't just stab Aerys for shits and giggles. Come on, Ned. 

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I ran across the battle at the Tower of Joy on TV the other night and after appreciating how big of a BAMF Arthur Dayne was, something left me uneasy. Howland Reed saves Ned by stabbing Dayne in the back. Which makes sense because they stood no chance otherwise. What caused unease is that Ned witnessed his friend stabbing a dude in the back and didn't seem to hold that against him, yet never once did he pause to think, hey, maybe Jaime didn't just stab Aerys for shits and giggles. Come on, Ned. 

I don’t think it was the stabbing in general. It was the oathbreaking—Jaime was sworn to protect Aerys. 

[WindyNights]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:52 PM, Umbelina said:

That was the least of his idiocies.

I could not stand Ned, actually thought he was the most unbelievable character in the books, and on the show. 

It always bothered me that the entire series kicked off because of someone so completely unbelievably stupid, and it took me a while to get past that nonsense and go with the story.

From the moment he killed that guy who was bringing IMPORTANT INFORMATION for the entire Kingdom and for the North of course, the place Ned was duty bound to protect, until each and every idiotic decision he made in KL? 

You want to do your duty and show off your morals for your kids, dumbbell?  At least LISTEN to the dude before chopping off his head, and you know, check out his information either before or after that.

Dude was a fool.  Unbelievably idiotic, honestly, how did he live to be middle aged without a brain in his head?

On 5/25/2019 at 12:32 PM, Umbelina said:

OK, I will give you that one, except?  Ned sees the honor in the man he beheads, and if he had listened to him further?  The rest of the plot would not have happened, so again, contrivance.

Oh, and it might have ended the story much earlier...

Still Ned went on to prove himself a bigger idiot as time went on.

It's hard to understand how he could tie his own shoes. 

I just found him ridiculous and unbelievable from the beginning (not as much in the show as in the books.)  I get that most people adored his "honor" and of course 😉  Sean Bean! 

He just annoyed me to no end, I rolled my eyes so many times I probably began to look like Bran when reading the Ned story.  I even put the book down, unsure if I would continue with such a (to me) bad and unbelievable beginning to the story.  It was that jarring to me, the hero/idiot juxtaposition and stupidity of that as a plot device to get this story going.   

The writing got better after Ned was gone, but it was quite a while before I could get past that this whole tale was built on a pile of nonsense, with a rather worldly character, who had been in wars, who supposedly ran the North well, was that impossibly naive.  I began to hate Ned though, because I did care about his children, and I blamed him for everything that happened to them.

I never believed it.  I got past it.  His death was sad.  Still, every single thing that happened to his family and his country stemmed from that.  When you can't believe that Ned could possibly be that stupid though, which I could not, at least as written?  It was nearly laughable.

Obviously, eventually I went with it, but I never really got over it.  I wish GRRM had made him less of a fool, but oh well.

The Night Watch deserter never talked about the White Walkers in the books. That’s show-only. 

He just says nothing most of the time because he’s still in shock. So Ned didn’t hear squat about the White Walkers in the books from him.

[WindyNights]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:46 PM, bijoux said:

Come on, now, he 23andme-d the shit out of bastards and incest babies. I always found that shit hilarious. Yup, definitive proof right there. All Cersei could have done was say, Yeah, and all the Lannisters are blonde, so effing what? I guess my genes trump thosemof your potbellied friend. 

 

To be fair though, I think Ned was perfectly fine up in the North, he just didn't have a clue about living in King's Landing. I used to think he was an idiot not to tell Cat about Jon, but he turned out to be right in the end IMO. 

But as Ned saw, Baratheon genes trump everything  including Lannister genes every time that they’ve mated with each other so that wouldn’t fly with him. 

Every Baratheon has had dark hair and Ned had a book on it proving it.

[bijoux]

I’ve started rereading the books, so I guess I’ll have confirmation of that soon enough, but on the show it really looked like, one, two, three dark haired Baratheons. Aha! J’accuse!

 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Night Watch deserter never talked about the White Walkers in the books. That’s show-only. 

He just says nothing most of the time because he’s still in shock. So Ned didn’t hear squat about the White Walkers in the books from him.

Ned didn't give him a chance to talk.  "You deserted, therefore, off with your head!"

I honestly don't remember if he told about the white walkers, I read it years ago...so, I'll accept your word on it.  Still, OBVIOUSLY that is why is was scared, and had he been allowed to gather his thoughts and explain his terror, it would have gone there.

Even so, that doesn't explain away his endless "duh" nativity in Kings Landing, where every single step he makes is that of an incredibly dull imbecile.  In spite of the warnings he gets, he's simple minded over and over again.

Detailing it all would require me to read it again though, and was was annoyed enough the first time.  "Honor" doesn't require stupidity and blindness to what is happening around him.  He walked into a viper pit with a jaunty "dum de dum dum dum" tune on his lips.  No, I didn't find it believable.

[slf]

Ned made a ton of mistakes because the show/book needed him to. GRRM and the writers couldn't figure out a more believable way to progress the King's Landing plot. For the books, I always considered it just early series roughness. I have no clue why they didn't smooth that over in the show.

Edited July 21, 2019 by slf

[shireenbamfatheon]

Ned wasn't dumb. He was a man of integrity whose trauma following the deaths of most his family and his participation in Robert's Rebellion affected him to such a degree that he jeopardized his own safety to ensure innocent children wouldn't be murdered as long as he could do anything about it. That and he was completely isolated from his allies and friends. He had no one trustworthy in King's Landing to back him up which limited his options on whom to trust and which actions. It was either sacrifice everything he believed in and stood for or put his own life on the line. Really, the biggest mistake he made was to take his daughters with him to King's Landing despite his suspicions that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. 

[slf]

I disagree. Ned made several mistakes, including not delegating important tasks to his own household. As Hand of the King, he had the right to replace small council members, guards, etc., with people he actually trusted. He knew there was a conspiracy in KL, knew he didn't know who all the players were, but left pretty much everyone in their positions.

Ned wasn't dumb but he wasn't able to survive in that kind of environment.

Edited July 22, 2019 by slf

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, slf said:

Ned wasn't dumb but he wasn't able to survive in that kind of environment.

I think that's at the heart of it. Ned may appear dumb for the environemnt of King's Landing, but for all that the North is one of the Seven Kingdoms, they're a completely different culture. Ned really had nowhere to learn the skills needed to navigate the viper's pit that is KL. Sansa's youth was actually probably beneficial to her, she had fewer deeply entrenched ideas and beliefs that were a hindrance. 

[Umbelina]

As I said, I found his profound naiveté completely unbelievable, and the idea that he had absolutely no idea what it was like in Kings Landing?  Ridiculous.  As you said, packing up the whole family and going there, also unbelievable.  His wife certainly knew the dangers there, and I'm supposed to believe he had absolutely no travelers or word from KL all these years that might help him buy a vowel?  He has traveled the country, certainly during the war at least.

It was just a silly way to begin the book, and over and over again he was (his character) doing one stupid thing after another.  Obviously the books improved after Robert was killed, but then his idiotic son decides to try to be as stupid as his father.  Now I can believe Robb was stupid, he actually was young and naive, and had been more sheltered and with less responsibility than Ned, but still...both fools.

[slf]

I think for both Ned and Robb part of the problem was trying to live up to their morals and ideals while at war against people who had none.

Sansa and Jon are similar to Robb and Ned in that respect but are ultimately better able to adapt.

[glowbug]

Ned spent a large portion of his formative years in the Eryie as a ward of Jon Arryn. He wasn’t someone who was isolated in the North all his life. That said, I never had a problem with the mistakes Ned made. I always saw it as a consequence of his unyielding code of honor and his inability to read people. It’s not that he never did anything dishonorable but it was usually during times when he was caught between a rock and a hard place (e.g. lying about Jon’s parentage). And he consistently underestimated both his friends and enemies, and was also consistently bad at dealing with situations where people were being dishonest, including when he was the dishonest one. He handled the situation with Catelyn and Jon terribly. Maybe there would always have been tension but his way or dealing with it, which was basically pretending it didn’t exist, made things worse. He didn’t really deal particularly well with dishonest/manipulative northern characters like Roose Bolton either. It’s been a while since I read the books but I don’t really recall an instance where Ned displayed much interpersonal intelligence. He was really bad at reading people for the most part. He had other skills that made him a good ruler in the north, including military intelligence. It also didn’t hurt that the majority of northern lords were unquestionably loyal to the Starks so those who weren’t, like the Karstarks and Boltons, didn’t have much of an opening to attack him politically. 

[Smad]

On 7/23/2019 at 7:03 PM, Umbelina said:

Now I can believe Robb was stupid, he actually was young and naive, and had been more sheltered and with less responsibility than Ned, but still...both fools.

And yet Sansa is the family member who is both accused of being the one to bring her family down and being the dumbest Stark (and Cat of course). Which does not compute for me. What did people expect from a 11/13 year old girl who had limited information because her father tells her nothing and who has been brainwashed/groomed since coming out of the womb? I personally found the men in the family way worse (Jon in show only not so much the books). Robb was worse in the show as well. I attribute that to D&D's hatred of House Stark (they love the Lannisters only hence all the whitewashing). Jon too was dumbed down to staggering degrees in the show. In the books you can excuse some of Robb's or Jon's mistakes with their age. But in the show, where they are clearly pushing 20, it's hard to fathom how they could be so stupid. And Ned couldn't even fathom the basics. LF flat out tells him to his face not to trust him, yet he does so anyway. Not getting his daughters out of KL before going up to Cersei and flat out telling her what he knows. A rigid sense of honor and past trauma with children are no excuse for me. So Cersei's children where more important than his own? Get stuffed Ned. Leaving his daughters completely in the dark about anything when they are the ones there with him. And people are more angry at Sansa for running to Cersei, in the books (which changed nothing as Ned already talked to Cersei), when she has no idea what is happening and just trying to live according with what she was groomed to do. It doesn't shock me anymore that men are given much less flack in books/show compared to female characters. Unless those women are stereotype busters and are more in line with the time the reader/audience lives in (ala Arya or Brienne).

Edited August 3, 2019 by Smad

[bijoux]

Very few people can keep up with Littlefinger, so I don't think Ned taking note of his warning would have meant much. He'd have played him differently. And taking LF's warning to heart again means he trusts the bastard. 

Regardless of how readers took Sansa going to Cersei, I firmly believe the purpose of putting that in was so that Sansa feels guilty, not that anyone else views her as such. She doesn't know that Ned has doomed himself. Because, yes, I do agree that not getting the girls out before going to Cersei was idiotic. 

[Smad]

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

Very few people can keep up with Littlefinger, so I don't think Ned taking note of his warning would have meant much. He'd have played him differently. And taking LF's warning to heart again means he trusts the bastard.

His freaking daughter, at age 11 I might add, noticed that LF's smile doesn't reach his eyes. I think that was during the tourney.

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

Regardless of how readers took Sansa going to Cersei, I firmly believe the purpose of putting that in was so that Sansa feels guilty, not that anyone else views her as such. She doesn't know that Ned has doomed himself. Because, yes, I do agree that not getting the girls out before going to Cersei was idiotic.

Yet people blame her more than Ned, that's the problem for me. Ned had talked to Cersei days before and Sansa ran to Cersei the morning on the day when Jamie and Ned had it out (from what I remember). Ned said nothing to his daughters as to why they were leaving and Sansa's betrothal was canceled. He didn't tell them about his investigation either. Considering the grooming had worked well on Sansa, if Ned had told her that Joff is actually an inbred bastard, Sansa probably would have lost interest in Joff on the spot. Also who in their right mind doesn't get his children out of the line of fire FIRST before going up to Cersei to spill the beans? For a guy with a supposedly serious hangup about child murder, his disrespect, disregard and lack of concern for his own children is staggering. He showed more concern for Cersei's children, whom he knew Robert would kill, than his own daughters. That's what's so aggravating. Ned is the one the most responsible for what happened to him and his children in KL (and what his children had to endure as a result) yet everyone blames Sansa. And lets not forget that he was the stellar father who betrothed Sansa to that psycho family in the fist place. His fat, drunk and douchbag of a best friend wanted them to join the families together and you don't check out first what you betroth your child to? And you don't call it off when you see your best friend is ineffectual and a douchbag and his wife is a biatch who will have an innocent killed? That the son has already shown himself to be an ass. So much for Ned having hangups about bad things happening to children. I guess it doesn't extend to his own children.

[bijoux]

If anything, I think Ned should actually have lied to the girls, because, yes, them being in the know was a liability. Oh, yeah, you two are just going to visit house so and so, amazingly enough, they have both daughters interested in embroidery and songs like Sansa, AND sons who'd love to spar against Arya and take her hunting. They'd also love to train with Syrio. It's just a short visit, you'll be back in a jiff. See you soon. Toodles. And then he packs them onto a boat taking them unknowingly and circuitously home. 

[Umbelina]

Yeah, Ned was the most poorly written character imaginable from GRRM. 

It's almost like he just wanted to get this story going, and get on to his vikings and other huge cast, and didn't pay much attention at all to what would start it all off.

I rolled my eyes so much in that first book, wondering why in hell anyone thought this guy was a "great writer" and were such sycophantic fans.  Then, GRRM hit his stride in places, and I got it more.  I always thought his best writing was about the "small folk" and it's a shame almost none of that made it into the show.

[Smad]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, Ned was the most poorly written character imaginable from GRRM.

I'm not sure I would call him poorly written. I just think that people come in all forms, including their hangups and psychological problems. I think a character like Ned is infuriating and aggravating because he makes so many mistakes. Whether those are because of his rigid sense of honor, his loyalty to a 'best friend' who has long ceased to be the guy he knew, his own personal wants (investigating the death of his father figure), his inability to read people at all or expect them to act as honorably as he does.

I really like this video which details 'political' Ned as far as the show is concerned at least.

When you think about the fact that his rigid sense of honor caused the Wot5K and cost tens of thousands their life it's a mystery to me how this guy has so many fans/defenders. People rather blame an 11 year old girl. Btw I'm not sure if you have read this but you would probably get a kick out of it. It was an April's Fools post but really it isn't. But it sure is a fun read...

Edited August 3, 2019 by Smad

[Umbelina]

No.

It was shit writing, and contrived as hell, just to get the book started.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for anyone to change my mind.

I was endlessly rolling my eyes, and probably said out loud "OH COME ON NOW" several times as well.  I nearly put the book down as poorly written nonsense that a decent high school fiction writer could have done better. 

I was convinced by friends to stick with it, so I did, and yes, the book and logic VASTLY improved (until the vikings/pirates nonsense which annoyed the fuck out of me) and by reading the later books by character voice in one go, and he never fell to that level of idiocy again.

Still, I hated the organization of the book, and it was much better, for example, reading all of one character's "chapters" together, which was a pain in the ass because of no index or table of contents.

All of the history bullshit (with few exceptions) should have been put in supplemental material as well, IMO.  It was, in places, like reading the bible, Bon begat Han, who begat (continue back to the dawn of time, and include wives, children, wars, lands, and every other damn thing about them until one's eyes glaze over.)  Several hundred pages later we MIGHT get back to the character's story we were interested in before he went on another tangent.

He's a great world builder, but a lousy writer with an even worse editor.

[bijoux]

Okay, that tl; dr post is hilarious throughout and I was chuckling at the description of the Starklings (possibly the best description of Jon) and then I lost it when I came to the other one. 🤣🤣🤣 Ned being to blame for Theon isn’t that wrong, but man, I have no idea what he’d have turned into if he had stayed with his own psycho dad. Probably dead by the age of 15 when either Balon or one of his brothers drowned him. It is a really good character study of a kid left rudderless, though.

Quote

Ned listens to Sansa closely enough to pick up on the whole epiphany about the incest, but he completely ignores Arya warning him about foreign wizards out to kill him. Okay, yeah, that sounds crazy except that YOU LIVE IN A WORLD WITH DRAGONS AND YOU HAVE A SWORD MADE OF MAGIC BY ACTUAL WIZARDS, NED.

While I can see reasoning behind some of Ned’s actions, this one is truly mindboggling. Like, okay, you don’t pay much attention to Arya’s story, but once you’ve realized something huge based off Sansa’s off the cuff comment, you never go back to lions and wolves? It really shouldn’t be that tough of a code to crack for you, dude.

But whatever, Ned and Cat were supposed to die anyway, because GRRM needed that to have the kids grow.

ETA: I’m just reading a Sansa chapter of ACOK, and man is that thing about 900 dudes perving on her true. Currently, it’s Dontos. I am so glad this was dialed back about a thousand in the show. I’m glad this fucker was killed later on.

Edited August 3, 2019 by bijoux

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

I'm not sure I would call him poorly written. I just think that people come in all forms, including their hangups and psychological problems. I think a character like Ned is infuriating and aggravating because he makes so many mistakes. Whether those are because of his rigid sense of honor, his loyalty to a 'best friend' who has long ceased to be the guy he knew, his own personal wants (investigating the death of his father figure), his inability to read people at all or expect them to act as honorably as he does.

I really like this video which details 'political' Ned as far as the show is concerned at least.

When you think about the fact that his rigid sense of honor caused the Wot5K and cost tens of thousands their life it's a mystery to me how this guy has so many fans/defenders. People rather blame an 11 year old girl. Btw I'm not sure if you have read this but you would probably get a kick out of it. It was an April's Fools post but really it isn't. But it sure is a fun read...

Love it!

I agree with every single word except for "April fools." and I could probably add stuff to this thing.

[Smad]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He's a great world builder, but a lousy writer with an even worse editor.

He might have prioritized world building over characters in the first book. When you have so many elements in your story, it's easy to lose track of certain things. It could also have been him trying to make it clear, via Ned, that what works in the North doesn't in the South.

I think however that GRRM being a 'gardener' is both his curse and his blessing. It allowed him to change his story from the set goal he had, especially for characters. His story grew and changed. That IMO is a good thing. But all he did was keep planting seeds, widening the world and character pool to the point where there is too much to harvest now and he has no clue how to do it. And that's the main reason why he won't finish this series. He simply can't. He's old now, his memory isn't the best and he only has two more books to finish a story, which with all the characters and plots should realistically take way more than 2 books to wrap up. Too many POVs, too many plots, too many conflicts (several Targs conquering, The Others, every Kingdom has it's own plot).

And lets not forget that he's been doing so much on the side that has nothing to do with finishing his main series. He wrote side stories (Dunk&Egg), involved with history books, Fire&Blood, GoT the TV show and prequels, video games and conventions. Eventually his reputation will probably be that of a writer who bit off more than he could chew. After all there are plenty of writers who had book series and they managed to finish them off. And he's had plenty of time to do so. Too bad his publisher didn't put more fire under his ass.

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

Okay, that tl; dr post is hilarious throughout and I was chuckling at the description of the Starklings (possibly the best description of Jon) and then I lost it when I came to the other one.

I think my fave was the description of the Hound and Night's Watch.

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

ETA: I’m just reading a Sansa chapter of ACOK, and man is that thing about 900 dudes perving on her true. Currently, it’s Dontos. I am so glad this was dialed back about a thousand in the show. I’m glad this fucker was killed later on.

I think the rampant pedophilia that 90% of the men in his books seem to be inflicted with would not have been possible with the show being produced in the West due to our laws. In other parts of our world however, that part of the story probably could be adapted. They were pushing it with LF in S4 (they really dialed him down previously considering how much he touches Sansa all the way back to the tourney). They really lucked out with aging up the kids and they were lucky Sophie Turner was an early developer who looked older than her age. Not that it excuses anything D&D did, like adding an attempted gang rape during the King's Landing riots that wasn't in the books.

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I agree with every single word except for "April fools." and I could probably add stuff to this thing.

I'm sure we all could. But the person touched most of the basics. Ned's children, Robert, Cersei, him being a judgemental ass. You could double that in words by just talking about Ned's 'political' conduct in KL.

Personally I was done with Ned long before he even reached KL. The incident at the Tridant was my breaking point. Anyone who kills an innocent is not a person worthy of my support. Honor my ass. His utter failure to watch his children is what started everything. Arya shouldn't have been playing with Mycah. Why was no one watching her? Allowing Sansa to be alone without a few guards with a boy who is an ass (hello he could rape her or beat her) and get drunk. Dragging your drunk and tired 11 year old daughter before everyone to be questioned and ask her to either betray her future family by telling the truth (great way to start a future marriage with a known asshole and witch of a mother) or betray the family she was born into by lying. Then your fat, drunk, abusive douchbag of a 'best friend' can't be bothered with children drama and his wife's nagging so he tells you to kill an innocent just to get it over with. The innocent being in this case was his own daughter's pet who didn't do anything wrong. And he doesn't think that would traumatize his daughter? Jesus Christ man.

[merrick715]

17 hours ago, Smad said:

And lets not forget that he was the stellar father who betrothed Sansa to that psycho family in the fist place. His fat, drunk and douchbag of a best friend wanted them to join the families together and you don't check out first what you betroth your child to? And you don't call it off when you see your best friend is ineffectual and a douchbag and his wife is a biatch who will have an innocent killed? That the son has already shown himself to be an ass. So much for Ned having hangups about bad things happening to children. I guess it doesn't extend to his own children.

Finally, I can come out of the anti-Ned closet! I'm going to focus on Ned's relationship with Sansa, and how fails her at every turn, once they leave Winterfell. Ned used Sansa, his eleven-year-old daughter, as bait so he can investigate the Lannister involvement in Jon Arryn's death. Does Ned consider what Joffrey and Sansa's marriage would be like if he could prove that Cersei killed Jon Arryn? Nope. I find it doubtful that Robert wouldn't kill Cersei.  Even if Joffrey wasn't a psychopath, Sansa would still be stuck in a miserable marriage. Joffrey would blame Ned for Cersei's death, and since husbands basically own their wives, Joffrey probably would have displaced his anger at Ned onto his new wife.

Ned didn't break Sansa's betrothal; to Joffrey until he found out Joffrey was an incest baby. I seriously think if Joffrey had the Baratheon look, Ned would have gone through with betrothal, even if "Baratheon" Joffrey would have had the same personality as book Joffrey. 

3 hours ago, Smad said:

Why was no one watching her? Allowing Sansa to be alone without a few guards with a boy who is an ass (hello he could rape her or beat her) and get drunk.

Probably the same reason book Joffrey told Sandor to walk Sansa back to the Red Keep, after the Hand's Tourney. Ned didn't even provide Sansa with a guard to keep her safe when she had to walk back to the Red Keep.  Who doesn't let their eleven-year-old walk around in a strange city alone at night? Septa Mordane did accompany Sansa, but she ended up passed out drunk during the feast. When Joffrey shows more concern about Sansa's safety than Ned, you know that's fucked-up.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Ned used Sansa, his eleven-year-old daughter, as bait so he can investigate the Lannister involvement in Jon Arryn's death.

I have been deliberately avoiding thinking about that, much less writing about it. This sets my blood boiling like you wouldn't believe and it's summer here and it's hot and I'm sweating enough as it is.😜

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Does Ned consider what Joffrey and Sansa's marriage would be like if he could prove that Cersei killed Jon Arryn? Nope.

It doesn't look like Ned had much of a relationship with his eldest daughter. He apparently doesn't seem to love her beyond the kind of love where you are obligated to have for family. He has a relationship with Arya, mostly just because she reminds him of Lyanna. Her he talks to, Sansa is not someone he seems to consider much. The show, due this being actual people rather than words, seemed to make that painfully clear, clearer than the books which lacks in pre-story House Stark family dynamics (other than Arya/Jon and Ned/Cat and maybe Cat/Jon and Cat/Sansa I have no idea how the individual relationships are like between the family members). But when Ned gives his daughter a doll and she tells him she hasn't played with dolls in the last 5 years...good grief man. When was the last time you even actually talked to your daughter? Did you ever? But what stayed the same was Ned keeping up the betrothal for his own selfish reasons which just infuriated me. You know this is a psycho family, from your abusive asshole of a friend to his mega-bitch wife to their psycho son and you don't get your daughter of that arrangement first thing? I have much less issues with Ned's political conduct (even though I want to facepalm every Ned chapter or TV episode) but with the way he puts his children, especially his eldest daughter, in the line of fire like that. Like I said before, he shows more concern for Cersei's inbred bastards by warning her beforehand than he does his own children when he doesn't get them out FIRST before even approaching Cersei.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Ned didn't break Sansa's betrothal; to Joffrey until he found out Joffrey was an incest baby. I seriously think if Joffrey had the Baratheon look, Ned would have gone through with betrothal, even if "Baratheon" Joffrey would have had the same personality as book Joffrey.

If Joff had the Baratheon look Ned would never have found out about the incest, since Joff's Lannister looks is what tipped him off (even though it makes no sense but hey they don't understand genetics) so who knows where the story would have gone. Nowhere good for Sansa, that's for sure. But it's not like the actual story got her anywhere good either.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Who doesn't let their eleven-year-old walk around in a strange city alone at night? Septa Mordane did accompany Sansa, but she ended up passed out drunk during the feast. When Joffrey shows more concern about Sansa's safety than Ned, you know that's fucked-up.

I don't understand how or why they kept that Septa for as long as they did. Why do you charge an alcoholic with watching your children? Someone who is constantly drunk and lets strange old dudes like LF feel up an 11 year old, basically the woman can't do her job. Why did they never get another? Why did none of them ever educate Sansa on the real world and what it's like for a woman in Westeros? They raised her in a bubble with nothing but Disney princess movies and then threw her to the lions. What kind of parent that actually loves their children would do that?

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

Not that it excuses anything D&D did, like adding an attempted gang rape during the King's Landing riots that wasn't in the books.

Not to Sansa, but Lollys was rapred fifty times over during the riot in the book. It’s not that it didn’t happen, only that it was repurposed.

[Smad]

19 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Not to Sansa, but Lollys was rapred fifty times over during the riot in the book. It’s not that it didn’t happen, only that it was repurposed.

Oh I know but it was about the pedophilia being dialed back in the show. I still don't get why they added that to happen to Sansa since it's not in the books. But it's probably for the same reason they replaced Jeyne with Sansa later on. It wouldn't be shocking and we wouldn't care to see it happening to someone we don't know.

[bijoux]

I actually find the show's version of these events easier to deal with than the books. Sansa's attempted rape isn't as systemic as dudes way older than her is in the books. It's horrifying and brutal, but it felt more the result of people being brought to the edge and a reaction to her being one of the nobles, whereas the perving in the book was more a part of her daily routine. Oh, here's a pretty pre-teen, why shouldn't we, men with more power than her routinely be sleezy scumbags to her? 

And I frankly found Jeyne's situation even more horrifying than Sansa's, because I felt at the time that one of the messages transmitted to me was that I should feel relieved because it wasn't one of the Starks and I really didn't know her aside from minor mentions in Sansa's and Arya's chapters. Which was very much not how I felt. It may not have been what GRRM intended, but there you go. 

[Smad]

But here is the thing a narcissist like Benioff doesn't understand. I don't have to know someone to feel empathy. I felt for Lollys in the books to the point that I wanted to punch Shae's face every time she complained about her because god forbid someone goes through that and has trauma because of it. Because I can empathize with Lollys. Same with Jeyne Poole. I've felt more sorry for Jeyne than 99.9999% of any of the other book characters. And I barely know her either. D&D can't seem to grasp that simple concept because they are literally incapable of it themselves. Also it's way more shocking to have it happen to a bigger character and shock gets them more attention.

PS: Of course Jeyne's situation is way worse but again, you can't put that on screen in this day and age. Not in the West at least.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Smad

[merrick715]

19 hours ago, Smad said:

It doesn't look like Ned had much of a relationship with his eldest daughter. He apparently doesn't seem to love her beyond the kind of love where you are obligated to have for family. He has a relationship with Arya, mostly just because she reminds him of Lyanna. Her he talks to, Sansa is not someone he seems to consider much. The show, due this being actual people rather than words, seemed to make that painfully clear, clearer than the books which lacks in pre-story House Stark family dynamics (other than Arya/Jon and Ned/Cat and maybe Cat/Jon and Cat/Sansa I have no idea how the individual relationships are like between the family members).

That old saying the squeaky wheel gets the oil epitomizes the way Ned parents Sansa. She does what is expected of her, and she does it well, and part of being a Lady is obeying your father. He assumed Sansa would just do what she's told without question because that is what she usually does.

I do think he was closer to Arya than Sansa. Ned took time from his schedule to find a teacher, so  Arya can learn water dancing, bit couldn't bother to find a teacher for Sansa's harp lessons. I wonder which is more prevalent in King's Landing, the first sword of Bravos, or a music teacher? 

I think it was a missed opportunity to not flesh out Cat's relationship with Sansa and Arya. Speaking of Arya, I have no clue why Cat and Ned didn't get rid of Septa Mordane much earlier. She was a shitty teacher for Arya. Who thinks it's a great idea to compare one of your students to another? They should have looked for a Septa who could teach Arya, and not compare her to Sansa. She helped to make Arya and Sansa's relationship worse.

17 hours ago, bijoux said:

And I frankly found Jeyne's situation even more horrifying than Sansa's, because I felt at the time that one of the messages transmitted to me was that I should feel relieved because it wasn't one of the Starks and I really didn't know her aside from minor mentions in Sansa's and Arya's chapters. Which was very much not how I felt. It may not have been what GRRM intended, but there you go. 

  Jeyne's storyline is horrifying partially because of what she endures, but also because it feels like, on a subtextual level, he was punishing Jeyne for the way she treated Arya.

Edited August 5, 2019 by merrick715

[Smad]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Jeyne's storyline is horrifying partially because of what she endures, but also because it feels like, on a subtextual level, he was punishing Jeyne for the way she treated Arya.

If that really was GRRM's point with Jeyne's story then I don't know what to say. Except he would fit right in with the toxic fandom he supposedly hates, the ones who think Sansa's beatings in KL were deserved as well as all the creepy pedos she had to deal with all the time. Or those that think she deserved Ramsey and worse. Because the punishment does not even in the slightest fit the crime. Though I'm still unsure what either Jeyne's or Sansa's crimes even were. It would also fly in the face of a point GRRM is making, that it sucks for the smallfolk, big time. Is this what little girls deserve because they are mean to another girl which is freaking NORMAL? Then where the hell is Arya's punishment then? Girl gave as good as she got.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I think it was a missed opportunity to not flesh out Cat's relationship with Sansa and Arya. Speaking of Arya, I have no clue why Cat and Ned didn't get rid of Septa Mordane much earlier. She was a shitty teacher for Arya. Who thinks it's a great idea to compare one of your students to another? They should have looked for a Septa who could teach Arya, and not compare her to Sansa. She helped to make Arya and Sansa's relationship worse.

The whole Septa system is creepy to no end. It's basically a woman hired for grooming/brainwashing. Isn't the Septa thing a Southern custom though (I don't remember right now)? Maybe Ned should have vetoed that. And that still doesn't answer my question really (not a question for you but the books/show) as to why Ned/Cat/Septa thought it was a good idea to let Sansa be raised so naively. They all know what it's like for a highborn woman in Westeros. They know the world is full of vile people. At the very least you'd expect them to give her a dose of reality when it was decided to betroth her, at freaking age 11 (or 13 in the show) and taking her to completely different culture with very different people. Cat herself knows what it's like both in regards to the South and what highborn women awaits.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Smad

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Isn't the Septa thing a Southern custom though (I don't remember right now)?

I assume so since septas and septons follow the Faith of the Seven, which isn't the religion of the North.

[Umbelina]

This has been so cool!

I've mentioned my dislike of how Ned Stark was written so many times, even before the show started or was a gleam in anyone's eye.  I've been shut down every single time.

It's good to have company!

[Smad]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

This has been so cool!

I've mentioned my dislike of how Ned Stark was written so many times, even before the show started or was a gleam in anyone's eye.  I've been shut down every single time.

It's good to have company!

It always depends on where you try to share your opinion. Most boards or reddits or whatever are biased towards certain characters so it's hard to make yourself heard without being bullied by the masses that tell you how wrong you are. People sometimes just see the surface of 'oh hey, good guy with honor' (see also show!Jon Snow) and that's enough for them. Despite the fact that they get thousands killed with their honor. Doesn't matter to the audience/reader, they can always blame someone else (usually a female character) that has nothing to do with it.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Smad

[Umbelina]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

It always depends on where you try to share your opinion. Most boards or reddits or whatever are biased towards certain characters so it's hard to make yourself heard without being bullied by the masses that tell you how wrong you are. People sometimes just see the surface of 'oh hey, good guy with honor' (see also show!Jon Snow) and that's enough for them. Despite the fact that they get thousands killed with their honor. Doesn't matter to the audience/reader, they can always blame someone else (usually a female character) that has nothing to do with it.

Yes, the bias to love Ned was very strong, and even stronger after Sean Bean was cast.

However, the strongest bias I felt was about GRRM.  He's a "genius" don't you know, and how dare you question his choices?  That man has a dedicated and loyal fandom, and frankly, in many ways, thank God for that, because I doubt I could have even finished the books without them.  The Westeros and ASOFAI websites saved me many times.

For example, and I'll make up names/situations here.  I'd be reading along, obviously sometimes YEARS and hundreds of pages later, to another piece of the story about Annabelle.

When we left off, Annabelle was about to be killed, having been betrayed by a "friend" (30 pages about the friend's family and location history, will we ever see her again, do we need to know any of this, who knows???)  and near starving, hiding in precarious location surrounded by enemies, with only her wits to save her.  Let's make her an orphan and 11 years old.  Roaming bands of villains have just eaten her horse.

In the subsequent pages (lets say 900 or so spread over 12 years of wait time) Bertrum, Castillain, Damnation, Eversongable, Fazombalz the 3rd, Gettanablia, and on and on up to the Zephariah have been introduced and faced their own perils, oh, and we also learn the complete family histories of each one of them in long boring detail.  We've nearly forgotten Annabelle by this time.

Suddenly, WE ARE BACK to Annabelle's storyline, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything in the subsequent pages, quite possibly not even location!  

Fazombalz's 3rd cousin's bastard son Taggovala Waters suddenly appears to help Annabelle!  However, before Taggovala can actually interact with Annabelle?  We must hear all about his complicated family story, especially of course, since his mother had been a fishwife to Vac Vallaive, a noted smuggler (10 pages about Vac Vallaive next) and then of course about his kidnapped fishwife Mad Missallia, who was only 14 when imprisoned and impregnated by Taggovala's father Taggmatiazia!  It turns out Mad Missallia has quite a family of her own, and a story to tell, which we will hear all about now.

Now who the hell was Fazombalz again?  Off to Westero's amazing character search engine, since suddenly, because of the hundreds of names I've read since we last left Annabelle, suddenly one of them is apparently going to actually matter to the story.  Or, at least to Annabelle's story.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Umbelina
typos of course and an ETA

[merrick715]

On 8/5/2019 at 10:16 AM, Smad said:

They all know what it's like for a highborn woman in Westeros. They know the world is full of vile people. At the very least you'd expect them to give her a dose of reality when it was decided to betroth her, at freaking age 11 (or 13 in the show) and taking her to completely different culture with very different people. Cat herself knows what it's like both in regards to the South and what highborn women awaits.

From the books, it seems like most high ranking noblewomen marry between the ages of sixteen to twenty so I can understand why Cat and Ned thought the had more time with.  Even at eleven Sansa understands what her duties are as the wife of a high ranking lord, her problem is that romanticizes them. I feel like she would have grown out of that fantasy life as she got older if shit didn't hit the fan in Westeros. 

I still don't understand why Ned and Cat didn't realize that Sansa would probably marry Joffrey. Seriously, how did they miss  Robert " I've carried a torch for a dead woman", Baratheon wouldn't snatch up the first Stark daughter for his own heir? 

[bijoux]

41 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

I still don't understand why Ned and Cat didn't realize that Sansa would probably marry Joffrey. Seriously, how did they miss  Robert " I've carried a torch for a dead woman", Baratheon wouldn't snatch up the first Stark daughter for his own heir? 

I imagine the time and geographical distance made them sort of ignore that and Ned to idealize Robert. And while Robert had doubtlessly been chewing off the ears of everyone he had contact with about Lyana, he didn't seem like much of a correspondent, so there was a bubble. 

However, it is odd that there had been no marriage negotiations for at least Robb and Sansa by this point. It seems pretty common for these to take place many years before the actual weddings in Westeros. 

[Smad]

4 hours ago, merrick715 said:

From the books, it seems like most high ranking noblewomen marry between the ages of sixteen to twenty so I can understand why Cat and Ned thought the had more time with.  Even at eleven Sansa understands what her duties are as the wife of a high ranking lord, her problem is that romanticizes them. I feel like she would have grown out of that fantasy life as she got older if shit didn't hit the fan in Westeros.

But Sansa romanticizing the life she will lead didn't come from nowhere. It's similar to our modern age. It's fine to let your kid watch Disney movies but it's your job to prepare your child for the actual, real and sometimes ugly world out there. Because that's the reality your child will live in, not a Disney movie. So it's fine to let Sansa have her entertainment and fantasies as long as she is in an environment where that isn't a problem. Like living in the North in WF, protected among her family while still being really young. But once it was not only decided to betroth her so young but they were going south where a viper pit is, you'd think they would have at least tried to impart some harsh doses of reality. Because it was needed. Poor girl was not prepared for the 900 pedos each day that want her, killers everywhere and schemers and assholes en masse. Nevermind an asshole of a prince betrothed to her and a witch of a future step mother.

I just can't hate a little girl for what she is considering it's her parents who so massively failed her. And I can't blame her for her actions either for the same reason, sucky parents.