Ratings and Scheduling: Who's the fairest of them all?

[KingOfHearts]

A&E should be more concerned with keeping their current audience. They're dropping like flies. Whenever I talk to people, what turns them off is the confusion of the plot. It's not that the show is intricately detailed and rich in worldbuilding, but it's the constant new characters with complicated new stories that really stop people from tuning in. Viewers get so lost because they originally came for the main characters, but now with the plots 4B introduced (all yuck), it's not even the same show.

 

5A is going to need the 3A effect in that it needs to slow down and regroup. Plenty of the fluff needs to be taken out and the show needs to return to its roots a bit. It doesn't need to retread its old stories, but rather bring new tales that directly involve the mains. Neverland was definitely its own thing, but because the cast was in the middle of it, the audience wasn't totally lost. It wasn't the Pan Monologue Show (3B-ish) or Darling Family Saga (4A-ish). In my opinion, the writers should shoot for steady over wowing new watchers with special effects and new iconic characters. 4B tried too hard to be appealing and over the top, leaving the loyal watchers far behind.

Edited May 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

All in all, I'm not sure ABC will bother interfering in the show. They got decent profit out of them for 3.5 seasons. I don't know that ABC will see it worthwhile to expend more money, time, and energy on a blind and lame horse that's limping towards a finish line.

This. At this point, Once is already in syndication territory, so while of course ABC hopes the show lasts as long as possible to have more episodes for syndication, it's not a great investment of time/money/energy/etc to try to massively overhaul the show to right the show for what, maybe one extra season?

 

I DO think ABC will address the sharp decline in ratings with A&E and hopefully prompt some course correction, but I think a lot of that will be on A&E (hopefully they'll be receptive as they were in 3A)--I doubt ABC will, like, assign them a watchdog or something. at this point, they'll let the show be what it will and pull the plug when the ratings go too low relative to the costs of producing the show.

 

In my opinion, the writers should shoot for steady over wowing new watchers with special effects and new iconic characters.

Agreed, but I just think they think steady is unbearably boring. sigh.

Edited May 5, 2015 by stealinghome

[Mathius]

Neverland was definitely its own thing, but because the cast was in the middle of it, the audience wasn't totally lost. It wasn't the Pan Monologue Show (3B-ish) or Darling Family Saga (4A-ish).

THANK YOU. I wanted more Neverbacks too, but whenever I hear people who say they wanted the arc to be more centered around the cast of the actual Peter Pan story and their connections to each other, I shake my head. That is NOT what the show needed at the time, and something like that isn't what it's going to need now with 5A. We need focus on the main cast and a simple plot premise with plenty of breathing room. That's it. That's literally all we need.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Mathius

[sharky]

I think all of this may be why ABC is touting this finale as a reset or something that will change the whole story. Because right now, no one wants to see the current story. It's better to entice people back by promising them that they're clearing the table and starting over sort of. But again, it will depend on how they do that. I've actually been quite confused by this Author storyline myself and I'm an avid fan. If they don't add in another villain or some weird tangent and stick to the core characters, 5A could be a success.

 

And FabulousTater -- I mentioned new showrunners a month or so ago. It's a good idea, but I was convinced otherwise. Essentially, I agreed with others who pointed out that we're too far into the series to do that. So we'll just have to wait and see what the suits do with their notes to A&E and if they even care to fix the problem or just say this is the last season and be done with it.

[Camera One]

The writers probably think their Author arc was awesome, and the ratings drop was because the plot was too clever and intricate for average dummies to comprehend.

[Souris]

All in all, I'm not sure ABC will bother interfering in the show. They got decent profit out of them for 3.5 seasons. I don't know that ABC will see it worthwhile to expend more money, time, and energy on a blind and lame horse that's limping towards a finish line.

 

 

I DO think ABC will address the sharp decline in ratings with A&E and hopefully prompt some course correction, but I think a lot of that will be on A&E (hopefully they'll be receptive as they were in 3A)--I doubt ABC will, like, assign them a watchdog or something. at this point, they'll let the show be what it will and pull the plug when the ratings go too low relative to the costs of producing the show.

 

Yes & yes to all of the above. ABC isn't going to expend much, if any, energy or money on Once. They did for Frozen, got an initial boffo return, then it fell into a hole. They desperately need to find new hits. They're probably figuring Grey's won't last past next season. Once is doing OK for them, so they'll probably leave it alone. They may send a memo that says something like, "Focus on the core characters." I think A&E may have gotten one of those memos before 4B b/c fans were already grumbling, which is why A&E started talking about focusing on the core characters. Except, of course, they already had the QOD and scripts with core characters AWOL for long stretches, so it was nothing but talk.

[FabulousTater]

I think all of this may be why ABC is touting this finale as a reset or something that will change the whole story. Because right now, no one wants to see the current story. It's better to entice people back by promising them that they're clearing the table and starting over sort of.

My response is gonna get off track from ratings talk, so I'm taking this to the All Seasons Thread.

[TheGreenKnight]

I was actually wondering the other day if the fact that the show has been basically absent of Rumbelle in 4B might also be playing its part in the ratings. The show does cater to the relationships viewers tune in for (even Regina/Emma) and they broke the most popular one coming into 4B. The viewers dropped below 6 million in the second half after the episode Will and Belle kissed, now that I look at it. This coming from someone who is decidedly NOT a Rumbelle fan, btw.

Personally, I think it is playing its part in the ratings drop. I guess I only see it that way because I haven’t found 4B anywhere near as bad as season 2, even if it’s still my least favorite arc of the others they've had. Honestly, the negative comments I’ve been reading don’t seem to be any more than the show has been receiving for what feels like 3 seasons now.

[FabulousTater]

I know season 5 is pretty much a lock, but I wonder... would ABC consider cutting the s5 episode order from 22 to say 13 episodes or something?

 

Recently, the broadcast networks are playing a lot with mini-series shows to see if they get traction, and if so they send it to second season order with built-in short seasons. Sort of like Galavant and Agent Carter (both shows I wouldn't mind getting second seasons of). The thinking is that these short run shows gives them more flexibility and variety in their programming and keeps things fresh in the face of other mediums that are sucking away at their viewership.

 

If so, I wonder if ABC will look at ONCE's numbers and think maybe a shorter season for them would work better (as would 10000% better writing) and they can schedule fresh programming in the time slot that a shorter season of ONCE would free up. I mean, the writers already treat the two half season arcs as entirely different seasons, and ONCE only needs 12 episodes to get them to the syndication 100. If the ratings perk up (ha! ya, riiiight) in a shortened s5, they could then get a s6 renewal but with similarly small episode order.

 

(Though TBH, I think this show needs to end after s5 because the writing (and ratings) has shown no signs of improvement and is only getting progessively worse. And to think, the writing has already hit the Passions level of soap opera crap with the pregnant Marian = Zelena! plot...I can't imagine the steaming pile of crap they're gonna inevitably produce as the degradation of quality continues in the season to come. It's no longer a matter of seeing if it turns into a trainwreck. Now it's a matter of how ugly the trainwreck is gonna be and the how high the body count will get)

Edited May 5, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Serena]

I don't think they'd cut the episode order because 1) they would need to find another (unproven) show to fill the Once void and 2) at this point in its life, the more episodes Once has, the more money ABC makes in syndication.

[Curio]

I know season 5 is pretty much a lock, but I wonder... would ABC consider cutting the s5 episode order from 22 to say 13 episodes or something?

 

Or maybe they can still do the split season 11-episode format, but present it as two completely different shows. In the fall, it could be Once Upon a Time: Camelot, where they only have Emma, Hook, Charming, and Will go off on an adventure for half the season. The other characters/actors who weren't involved with that arc will then be involved with Once Upon a Time: Baby Mama Drama in the spring where Regina, Robin, Snow, and Zelena can deal with the pregnancy drama. That way, the actors are only involved with the show for 11 episodes the entire year, my favorite characters can finally interact, and I can stop watching this stupid show for 11 episodes in the spring.*

 

*In no way, shape, or form is any of this plausible. But let me dream, okay?

 

In the final numbers, Secrets and Lies adjusted up and beat this show to be the top network show of the night.

 

Good.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Curio

[jjjmoss]

In the final numbers, Secrets and Lies adjusted up and beat this show to be the top network show of the night.

[Souris]

In the final numbers, Secrets and Lies adjusted up and beat this show to be the top network show of the night.

 

I figured it would. Link?

[stealinghome]

Not jjjmoss, but link here.

 

Echoing the thought that there's no way ABC reduces this show's episode order. Since we're now in syndication-land, they'll want as many episodes as possible. And as much as this show's ratings have nosedived, outside of Shondaland? It's still ABC's top-rated drama this season.

[sharky]

Maybe we just need them to replace Adam and Eddy with Shonda and we'll be good. ;)

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe we just need them to replace Adam and Eddy with Shonda and we'll be good. ;)

Then hide your faves because they ALL end up dying eventually.

[stealinghome]

But at least the soap would be much better written!

 

Granted Frozen artificially pumped up OUAT's ratings at the start of the season, but it's not just leading, it's actually kinda crushing the network's other non-Shonda dramas. We're about .6 ahead of Agents of SHIELD, which is the next highest-ranked drama.

[Souris]

Switching A&E for Shonda would be out of the frying pan, into the fire!

 

ABC needs new drama blood, stat. I should look over their pilot list again to see if they have anything that looks promising -- though it's always a crapshoot what hits.

 

They're leading the sweeps in demos, though.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Souris

[sharky]

I've decided to just wait until next week when they finalize their schedule to decide which new shows I'll watch. I've been burned a few times by pilots that never got picked up. It's definitely going to be interesting though -- upfronts are only a few days after the finale so it will be really interesting to see what they pair Once up with now that Revenge is done.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Or maybe they can still do the split season 11-episode format, but present it as two completely different shows.

Some of the stories on Once would do really well as mini-series. I'm honestly surprised it's able to pull off 22 episodes a season.

[sharky]

Well, but it's not really pulling off a story in 22 episodes a season, is it? It's pulling off a story in 11 episodes for two half seasons every season. I do think it's a good format for them, but I also think it's become a crutch. Let's bring in a random bad guy, talk about them for a half season instead of our core characters, and then kill them off so it doesn't matter anyway? Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Edited May 5, 2015 by sharky

[Mathius]

Well, but it's not really pulling off a story in 22 episodes a season, is it? It's pulling off a story in 11 episodes for two half seasons every season. I do think it's a good format for them, but I also think it's become a crutch. Let's bring in a random bad guy, talk about them for a half season instead of our core characters, and then kill them off so it doesn't matter anyway? Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse, repeat.

And it's a shame because it doesn't have to be like that. 3A was only 11 episodes and yet it pulled off a good story with the main characters actually given real insight and development. Heck, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland was only 2 episodes longer (13) and it was able to tell a satisfying story with fully developed characters in that amount of time. There is no excuse why 3B, 4A and 4B had to go down the way they did other than creative laziness.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Mathius

[Amerilla]

I was actually wondering the other day if the fact that the show has been basically absent of Rumbelle in 4B might also be playing its part in the ratings. The show does cater to the relationships viewers tune in for (even Regina/Emma) and they broke the most popular one coming into 4B. The viewers dropped below 6 million in the second half after the episode Will and Belle kissed, now that I look at it. This coming from someone who is decidedly NOT a Rumbelle fan, btw. Personally, I think it is playing its part in the ratings drop. I guess I only see it that way because I haven’t found 4B anywhere near as bad as season 2, even if it’s still my least favorite arc of the others they've had. Honestly, the negative comments I’ve been reading don’t seem to be any more than the show has been receiving for what feels like 3 seasons now.

 

I think it's one of those things that makes casual shippers less inclined to to tune in, but it's hard to say if it is, in itself, a reason. Rumbellers, in particular, are used to this pattern of separation-reunion-separation, and very few Rumbelle fans see 'Scarlet Beauty' as an actual threat (or even an actual relationship, since Belle and Will have barely had screentime or, for that matter, dialog).

 

I would say there's less excitement in the Rumbelle fandom this season for the annual final-episode reunion, even with the hints that it's going to be a biggie, and that is new.

New spoilers today that the season may not end with what many within the fandom were expecting would be a curse-breaking TLK between them has pushed even a few hardcore shippers to say they probably won't be coming back for 5a.

 

From what I've seen - and experienced - the audience erosion comes from a combination of factors. My favorite "ships" are Snowing and Rumbelle; Emma bores me and Regina irritates me. So if there's just week after week of plotting, dialog and characterization yanked from so far up the showrunners asses that they could pull out their own hearts via the anus, and the only ships I'm seeing are Captain Yawn and Outlaw Queen...eh, there are plenty more interesting things to watch. It wasn't one thing that turned this from "Must-See TV" to "Well, Maybe I'll Catch A Few Clips On YouTube And Read The Forum." It was a little of everything.  

 

 

 

Recently, the broadcast networks are playing a lot with mini-series shows to see if they get traction, and if so they send it to second season order with built-in short seasons. Sort of like Galavant and Agent Carter (both shows I wouldn't mind getting second seasons of). The thinking is that these short run shows gives them more flexibility and variety in their programming and keeps things fresh in the face of other mediums that are sucking away at their viewership.

 

There are some rumors that Fox may do this with 'Bones.' Last I heard, they haven't officially renewed for a full final season, but they might give it a short order of 11 or 12 episodes to close it out.

 

With Once, I think it would come down to revenue. Halving the episodes halves the number of advertising slots, it takes longer to get the show to syndication, etc.

 

I watch a lot of limited-run stuff, and in general I find it to be much more tightly plotted and better done than many traditional 22-episode series...but it all comes down to the writers. A lack of vision is a lack of vision.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Amerilla

[Serena]

The most watched season of Once was season 1 and Belle was in literally 3 episodes, so I don't see how Rumbelle shippers could be a big influence. Obviously, a well-written show will viewers even if there's no Rumbelle.

[FurryFury]

I'd even say no shipper fanbase could be big enough for it to influence actual ratings, unless the show was specifically geared towards shipping from the get go (Once wasn't).

[Souris]

Somebody on Twitter asked Jane Espenson how many seasons Once would run & she replied: "Feels like at least seven to me, but we'll see!"

[Camera One]

So they haven't discussed the Swan song yet.  

[RadioGirl27]

Somebody on Twitter asked Jane Espenson how many seasons Once would run & she replied: "Feels like at least seven to me, but we'll see!"

Poor, poor Emma.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the seven year is an indication of the length of the actors' contract.  But if the ratings continue the way they have this half season, they might be nudged out the door sooner rather than later.  I don't think the show should run beyond seven years anyway.  Besides, what if I have to move to Africa?  The internet was a bit of a bitch when I was there 5 years ago.  I can only imagine what a livestream would look like.

[FurryFury]

Seven years? Are they kidding? This show is already creatively dead, I can't imagine what's it going to be by then, a zombie?

[YaddaYadda]

Seven years? Are they kidding? This show is already creatively dead, I can't imagine what's it going to be by then, a zombie?

 

The thing is, it doesn't have to be the way it has been this half season.  If A&E dialed down on the arrogance and looked at the show for what it is, a train wreck, then they could fix it.  But they're arrogant and think they're the awesomest awesome that ever awesomed and that's a problem.  They can turn this around but they probably won't.

[FurryFury]

I'm not even sure they CAN. It's quite clear they are out of ideas. Maybe if they added some new writers that are actually good, and not arrogant pricks like Nimerfro. 11-episode seasons need a lot of ideas to continue feeling fresh and interesting, and I think stuff like Zelenagate and eggnapping are clear indicators there's a lack of them.

[Amerilla]

Somebody on Twitter asked Jane Espenson how many seasons Once would run & she replied: "Feels like at least seven to me, but we'll see!"

 

Ouch. I think I just blew soda through my nose.

 

I second, third, fourth all of this, and I'd add: I don't think the cast has another three years in them. I'm not sure they have another season in them.

 

When I look at clips and the occasional episode, I see two basic facial expressions: the constipated "tortured" face and the "standing around waiting for someone to finish their dialog" face. Nobody seems challenged as an actor. Even Lana and RC don't seem to be chewing the scenery with any real joy anymore. It's clear from interviews that none of them have any better idea of what the writers are doing than we do. It has to be frustrating to try to inject some sense into what is, frankly, nonsensical.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Amerilla

[Souris]

Whether the actors want to be there or not, if they're contractually obligated, they're contractually obligated -- unless they pull a David Caruso or Sherry Stringfield.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

I think RC checked out early into 4A. Ginny's acting has been quite uneven as well. But then they give her some really horrible lines to speak.

I can't imagine OUAT running for three more seasons! lol At most they have two seasons left, as long as the ratings don't drop too much in S5.

[BoPeeps]

Seven years is a possibility if Disney has some new movies/sequels to promote. Never underestimate the power of the hand that sweeps the magic walking broom!

And A&E will continue to capitalize unfairly by stringing along the many fans of their most popular *ships* like Captain Swan with two sentence dialogue and token kisses.

They play that game well.

[Lieutenant]

Well, Once is officially back next season. Big surprise.  Gotta say I'm bummed about Forever tho.  I rather liked that show overall.  Sigh.  I heard rumblings Galavant was a go for season 2, however.  Hells yeah!!

 

Edited May 8, 2015 by Lieutenant

[FabulousTater]

ABC also picked up The Muppets to series. Anyone else see The Muppets taking over ONCE's 8pm Sunday slot and ONCE bumping over to 9pm? No? Just me?

 

(*in low key voice* was anyone else secretly hoping that OUAT would get cancellled so you could be put out of your misery? No? Just me? Ah well... ;-P )

 

ETA: Link to The Muppets pick-up.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Curio]

Anyone else see The Muppets taking over ONCE's 8pm Sunday slot and ONCE bumping over to 9pm? No? Just me?

 

If anything, I think The Muppets would have to be later than Once. ABC will never move Once out of the 8/7 slot because it's a "family show." The Muppets are ironically a lot more biting and satirical, so they'd be better off in the later spot anyways.

[Mathius]

Even Lana and RC don't seem to be chewing the scenery with any real joy anymore.

I think RC checked out early into 4A.

Don't you mean 4B? I thought RC was pretty good in 4A and clearly having fun with his evil shenanigans, even if said evil shenanigans ended up recycling the word "cleave" too often. In 4B, however, there's only ever been glee in that one scene where he got to hold Eion Bailey over a fire. For the rest of the arc, his evil shenanigans have been joyless. Colin O'Donaghue playing RC was more captivating than RC himself has been for the most part. Even RC's Imp Rumple has completely deteriorated, I have no idea what accent he's even aiming for now!

Edited May 8, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I think RC checked out early into 4A.

 

In 4B, however, there's only ever been glee in that one scene where he got to hold Eion Bailey over a fire. For the rest of the arc, his evil shenanigans have been joyless.

 

The actress who played Cruella was quite impressed by him, though.  She said it was awe-inspiring to watch him film his scenes, the contrast between Evil Rumple and the tenderness when he talks to Belle (presumably when she's passed out?).

Edited May 8, 2015 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

The Pinocchio nose scene was the highlight of this half-season for me. So over-the-top and hilarious.

[Serena]

Galavant and Agent Carter were renewed too! I wonder if Galavant will air during the Once hiatus again?

[FurryFury]

I think so.

 

This is not about Once per se, but apparently, this year has been good for ABC.

[Mathius]

The actress who played Cruella was quite impressed by him, though. She said it was awe-inspiring to watch him film his scenes, the contrast between Evil Rumple and the tenderness when he talks to Belle (presumably when she's passed out?).

Yeah, but he's done that in this role for a long time. It's still awe-inspiring for less experienced actors, but for RC, it's like sleepwalking at this point. It's not a challenge, nor is it fun.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Mathius

[Aliasscape]

 

(*in low key voice* was anyone else secretly hoping that OUAT would get cancellled so you could be put out of your misery? No? Just me? Ah well... ;-P )

 

Ha, I felt a tinge of disappointment. I mean I'm glad all the actors are still employed but I mean I remember a time when I would try not to schedule things for Once Time so I could watch it in peace. And now I find myself going Once is on but hey, so are the Radio Disney Music Awards, maybe I'll watch those instead. They might be more fun.

 

I told my sister of the renewal, her face filled up with disappointment and she kinda mouthed "Noo." And I'm like "Yep."

[FurryFury]

I've learned about the renewal before that (it was known for months, I think), but yeah, I wouldn't be mourning the show if it got canceled now. I like to see quality rewarded (yay, Agent Carter!) and these days, this show's writing is insultingly awful. Stuff like this doesn't deserve to be on air.

[Serena]

I'm honestly never happy when a show is cancelled, even the most awful show in the universe. I mean, the actors will probably find something else, and most of them are worth millions anyway, but so many other people would be losing their job.

[FurryFury]

But then some of them may find work on a show that's actually good! And really, this is the way the industry works. I can't change it anyway.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[FabulousTater]

But then some of them may find work on a show that's actually good! And really, this is the way the industry works. I can't change it anyway.

Exactly.

 

Shows getting cancelled is the nature of the industry. It's rare to have long running series like Grey's that's going into it's 12th(?) season. If virtually guaranteed, year in year out job security was your career goal, getting into television production or acting is not the place for you. It's unfortunate that cancelling a show costs jobs, but IA with FurryFury that quality* should be rewarded with renewal and not because "reasons" (like sentimentality). Doing otherwise just breeds mediocrity, at best.

 

( * From the network perspective "quality" is anything that makes them money. But as a TV viewer I hope that the something that makes them money coincides with a well written and performed program. They get to pad their coffers and we get good and enjoyable entertainment. That's win-win to me)

 

ETA

Ha, I felt a tinge of disappointment. I mean I'm glad all the actors are still employed but I mean I remember a time when I would try not to schedule things for Once Time so I could watch it in peace. And now I find myself going Once is on but hey, so are the Radio Disney Music Awards, maybe I'll watch those instead. They might be more fun.

Heh, ya that was pretty much my sentiment. Sure, it's nice people get to keep their jobs, and I expected the renewal because as bad as the show is now and however bad the ratings have gotten, it's still performing better than some of the other ABC shows (though the show is definitely making headway towards the bottom of the pack). But, if I'm being totally honest, I was kinda disappointed it got the renewal.

 

It also doesn't feel like A&E are working for it anymore because they always think their renewal is a lock. So they are just writing down whatever crap comes to mind and putting it on screen (4B is lucky if more than a single episode can be considered "mediocre" in quality at best) because they've gotten cocky and smug and they've totally bought into their own hype. I think if anyone wants to see the show improve, then someone needs to put their nuts over the fire 'cause right now they seem overly impressed with their own BS.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FabulousTater