Characters and Relationships in PLL: You Need to Take a Psychological Selfie Right Now.

[Sakura12]

I don't even know why Alison was friends with Aria. I get it with the other 3 with all their insecurities would want to be friends with someone like Alison, we've seen what effect she has on each of them. But we get nothing from Aria and her. The show doesn't seem to know the reason either since they barely have scenes together.

 

The only time they talk it's about Ezzzzra which is the only thing anyone ever talks about with Aria since her world revolves around that creepy manchild. 

[mercfan3]

The Aria/Ali relationship is one of the most intriguing to me on the show. In general, Ali was a good friend to Aria. She manipulated her once because she wanted to test the girls to make sure they weren't A., and once because she wanted to make sure that Aria wasn't going to tell her mother about her father's affair, because she needed money to run away. Both situations were almost reasonable (Especially for Ali) and she had done much worse to the rest of the girls. 

 

Meanwhile, we saw her helping Aria get with Noel Kahn. Apologizing to Aria, of all people, for her behavior towards them in the past. And several other..actually nice actions. 

 

The show has done a good job illustrating the similarities/creating parallels between these two characters. One huge difference, however..Ali is a leader, Aria is a follower. 

 

So I do wonder why Ali picked her, and more importantly why Ali actually treats her as a friend and always had. 

 

And probably the bigger question is, why did Aria stick around? 

[Freckles101]

I've been thinking a lot about Ali's relationship with the girls and have come to the conclusion that Emily and Hanna are definitely the ones Ali was the worst to. Which is part of what makes Emily's behavior towards her this season so frustrating. Hanna's going into a downward spiral/identity crisis with Ali being back, while Emily just sleeps/makes out with Ali? And gets mad at Ali when she finds out she's lying, yes, but goes right back to looking out for her the next week? This is especially jarring because Emily has ALWAYS been the Liar to take the least amount of shit from her love interests. But I guess since Ali is her first love, she's also her blind spot in a way (Emily's Ezra or Toby, if you will, as they've indicated via song choices). I'm hoping Ems will eventually be able to move on from her though.

[mercfan3]

I would say Hanna takes the least amount of shit from her love interests. Emily has a tendency to get defensive for them. 

 

I would also say that Ali was the worst to Spencer. Probably because Spencer was confrontational. 

 

I wonder with Ali..was she using Emily's feelings to have power over her. Or..did she always have feelings for Emily, and did she hide her feelings to keep power in the relationship. 

[lion10]

This ship has long sailed but I thought Holden and Aria had great chemistry. They were cute together and unlike Ezra, Holden didn't cause Aria's character to become isolated from her friends.

[lion10]

Why does Emily hate Jenna so much?

[Agent Dark]

Why does Emily hate Jenna so much?

She's had a full on hatred for Jenna ever since the Liars learned that Jenna was raping Toby.  Emily and Toby bonded pretty early on in Season1, back when the rest of the Liars still thought Toby was a bad guy.  While Toby these days is pretty much only present for Spoby scenes, he and Emily are actually meant to be quite good friends.  She's got his back basically, hence the hatred for Jenna.

 

I'd also imagine there might be an element of disgust with herself too.  In the first Halloween episode, Jenna and Emily did do some fairly intense eye-flirting.  Emily was definitely 'looking' (which to be honest, fair enough) and that was where we first got the hint that Jenna was bi.  So for Emily to learn that a girl she was maybe interested in turned out to be a monster might have something to do with her hatred as well. 

[lion10]

That makes sense but Spencer doesn't show the same level of hatred towards Jenna that Emily does, though you'd think she would be even angrier.

It's interesting that while Ezra gets brought up all the time as a creeper, Jenna gets a much nicer treatment by the show's reviewers even though what she did to Toby was a lot worse than what Ezra did to Aria or Toby did to Spencer. I'm reminded of the rape culture article by Heather Hogan on After

Ellen where she talks about the various troubling relationships the show alternately sweeps under the rug and highlights. She then says (I'm paraphrasing here) "Oh, and Toby and Jenna were bad too. I shouldn't gush over her as much".

Though I suppose Jenna is technically a villain of the show while Ezra is still presented as an overall good person.

[Sakura12]

So for Emily to learn that a girl she was maybe interested in turned out to be a monster might have something to do with her hatred as well.

 

Yet, she's completely fine with Alison being a monster. 

 

Jenna's been the villain of the show so when she does bad things and people talk about her doing bad things, it's expected. They keep pushing Ezra has this great guy, when he's a creeper that goes after underage girls and stalks them so he can write a book. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Sakura12

[Agent Dark]

That makes sense but Spencer doesn't show the same level of hatred towards Jenna that Emily does, though you'd think she would be even angrier.

It's interesting that while Ezra gets brought up all the time as a creeper, Jenna gets a much nicer treatment by the show's reviewers even though what she did to Toby was a lot worse than what Ezra did to Aria or Toby did to Spencer. I'm reminded of the rape culture article by Heather Hogan on After

Ellen where she talks about the various troubling relationships the show alternately sweeps under the rug and highlights. She then says (I'm paraphrasing here) "Oh, and Toby and Jenna were bad too. I shouldn't gush over her as much".

Though I suppose Jenna is technically a villain of the show while Ezra is still presented as an overall good person.

 

I think it's also because Jenna is a far more interesting character than Ezra.  I think that may have to do with how much screentime he's gotten compared to Jenna.  We've seen alot of Ezra, but apart from a little bit of whiny family issues that have never really been explored the only things we've really seen about him is Ezria and his creeping.  It's easy to dismiss him as exactly what he appears to be - a creeper - because of that. 

Jenna on the other hand is shrouded in mystery, which automatically makes her a more interesting character imo.  Yes she's done some pretty despicable things, but there's also the other sides to her character where's she's expressing vulnerabilities and stuff.  I think its easy to forget the terrible things she's done in the past when she such an awesome screen presence.

 

Yet, she's [Emily] completely fine with Alison being a monster. 

Well for starters Alison hasn't done something as straight up bad as rape someone.  There's no denying that Emily has some blinders on when it comes to Ali, but they appear to be slowly getting removed.  And even then, it remains to be seen exactly what kind of person Ali truly is anyway.

[Sakura12]

Ali maimed someone, attempted manslaughter is pretty much on par with rape being they are both crimes that physically, mentally and emotionally hurt the other person. Plus if Toby wasn't there Jenna could've died.

 

I don't consider it an accident with Alison purposefully going there with the intent to cause harm. Lighting something on fire and throwing it in an enclosed space is not going to make rainbows and puppies. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Sakura12

[Agent Dark]

I think calling it attempted manslaughter is stretching it just a bit...  (though is there even such a thing as "attempted manslaughter"?  How can you attempt to accidentally kill someone?)  I did some pretty stupid things as a teenager too, things that easily could have seriously injured someone, but I hardly did it with the intent to actually and specifically seriously injure them.  When you're young and immature, consequences don't mean much.  I'm not saying what Ali did wasn't a stupid and irresponsible thing to do, but she was all of 14 when she did it.  I think it's a bit like Paige apparently "attempting to drown Emily" thing.  IMO that gets way way overblown, for what was actually nothing more than someone dunking someone else underwater.  When I was in high school that was pretty much what all school swimming excursions were about lol (when the teachers weren't looking of course!).

 

Meanwhile, it's pretty hard to defend an actual sexual assault.

[lorikauai]

I've always felt Emily would hate anyone Ali hated out of loyalty. None of the girls seemed to have any sympathy for Jenna prior to the discovery of her coercive relationship with Toby, so I wouldn't pin it all on that. At least Hanna now acknowledges that it was Ali's influence that led her feelings toward Jenna.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I'm not saying what Ali did wasn't a stupid and irresponsible thing to do, but she was all of 14 when she did it.  I think it's a bit like Paige apparently "attempting to drown Emily" thing.

 

 

Paige was fully in control of the situation, there wasn't really a chance of Emily being seriously hurt in the "drowning" attempt (unless Paige was as bad as some fans say she is and really wanted to kill Emily, of course). Alison, on the other hand, not only intentionally caused a fire in a building with a person inside (even if you are 14, you have to a be real moron to not understand the risks of that), but she blackmailed another person into taking the fall, cracked jokes about Jenna's disability and to this day has not shown any remorse whatsoever. If anything, I would say it is the opposite of the "drowning" thing since many fans still try to play down its significance, while what Paige did was an act of bullying the likes of which Alison does every day (albeit usually with her cutting words or by manipulation, rather than getting rough with people), yet for some reason it is considered by many to be an attempted murder.

 

Also, Jenna being more interesting than Ezra would be a valid reason to like her more than him but when the discussion is about who has done worse things between the two of them, Ezra seems the more common choice. I don't really agree with that, since Jenna is not just a rapist, she also helped Garret frame the Liars for murder. I mean, for shovel possession, which is worse.

[Sakura12]

A prank is egging or TPing someone's house, not throwing a firecracker in their garage while they are inside. Ali knew full well what she was doing when she went over to the Cavanaugh's house. I'm not saying Jenna's better, she and Alison are both monsters. Alison should receive the same type of treatment as Jenna, which she does by almost everyone else, except Emily. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Sakura12

[M1977G]

Maybe part of the reason that Jenna gets less flack or seems to be forgiven more for her crimes is not only that she's female and therefore generally seen as less dangerous by society, but also that her rape victim is a male, which is a crime discussed little and does not seem to be regarded as the same kind of violation as a sexual assault against a female (again because society poses male as dangerous or strong and female as less powerful).  

[Bort]

I know we're supposed to think Emily hates Jenna because of Toby, but I've always thought it's more complicated than that, that it has to do with being attracted to Jenna when she really doesn't want to be

I think this is a very good articulation of Emily vs. Jenna, plus I also think it's similar to Emily's feelings for Ali. Except that it goes more than simply being attracted to Ali since Emily has feelings for her-- she isn't able to throw the vitriole at Ali as easily as she does Jenna.

[krimimimi]

Re: Spence hating (or not) Jenna for her treatment of Toby (as the liars understand things) vs: Emily's

That makes sense but Spencer doesn't show the same level of hatred towards Jenna that Emily does, though you'd think she would be even angrier.

Yes, you would think that should be the case. But OTOH, it fits with her overall - see how much more easily Emily becomes angry and (at least somewhat) unrelenting with her partners for far more trivial infractions than Spencer does. (I view the Toby on the A team thing as a huge betrayal as it has been shown to have played out, but accept that not everyone sees it that way. Mileage varies.) I thought Spence should have kicked him to the curb, or there should have been some serious on screen grovelling for him to get back in her good graces, or at the least it should have been mentioned that it happened off screen. If she's not massively playing him, then the whole thing is beyond irksome (for me). Whereas Em is totally capable of cutting someone off at the knees (I'm not saying she always does, just that she can) just for giving her a funny look. Toast! You're history! It has it's pros and cons.

 

I like to think that is a natural result of Emily's fairly healthy home life vs. what we've seen of Spencer's. I remember seeing Spence in season one and after watching the interaction with her parents feeling sorry for her, and like I understood (and liked) her a whole lot better. (I get less of that feeling watching them these days, but I think that's because their limited screen time is used to portray things other than super-demanding, emotionally unavailable parents who were so scarce with praise.) So I think in some ways that makes Spence a lot needier than Emily is, and much more compromising, and far more desperate for even the faintest morsels of affection, affirmation and attention. I really can't help feeling that Spencer's family have raised her to be a bit of a doormat in some regards. It's not that she never objects, it's just like she does so with far less effect, and I sometimes feel without even the expectation on her part that it should have one. ("I shall complain most vocally about Melissa and Dad and secrets and stuff, but nothing will ever come of it. And so shall it be evermore." Indeed.)

 

I find it interesting that Spence doesn't seem to draw as much security out of her friendships as maybe Hanna, say. I liked the scene where Hanna was on the outs with Aria (after the Art Expo tickets for Ella thing) and you could see it really hurt Han and that it mattered. And I get the feeling when I see that, that it works the other way around, too: that the character is stronger for the friendship. With Spence, I feel like we just had Toby mopiness, which I find less appealing. (For clarification - I think it's fair game to anguish over failing relationships, I just prefer to not have that be exclusively relationships of a romantic nature. Platonic relationships should be at least similarly important in this age bracket. Otherwise you're a bit of a crap friend (like when Toby was able to pressure Spence to lie to her friends).)

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I find it interesting that Spence doesn't seem to draw as much security out of her friendships as maybe Hanna, say. I liked the scene where Hanna was on the outs with Aria (after the Art Expo tickets for Ella thing) and you could see it really hurt Han and that it mattered. And I get the feeling when I see that, that it works the other way around, too: that the character is stronger for the friendship. With Spence, I feel like we just had Toby mopiness, which I find less appealing.

 

Off the top of my head, Spencer took it rather hard when Hanna was pissed at her in 2.18 or when Emily was angry at her for the whole "you want to go to this shitty college" fiasco, so I don't think she mopes about Toby only and doesn't care nearly as much for her friends.

 

 

Whereas Em is totally capable of cutting someone off at the knees (I'm not saying she always does, just that she can) just for giving her a funny look. Toast! You're history!

 

I can't recall seeing Emily doing something like that even once in four seasons and a half.

 

 

how much more easily Emily becomes angry and (at least somewhat) unrelenting with her partners for far more trivial infractions than Spencer does.

 

On the flip side, Emily has endured much more in the way of awful treatment from Alison than Spencer has from Toby. 

 

Personally I don't bother trying to explain Toby's instant forgiveness because it never made sense on any level or for any character. It will never be explored further because it was just a ratings stunt - "Toby is evil! Gotcha!".

Edited August 30, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[lion10]

I've been wondering: did Emily ever have romantic feelings for Toby? When Toby was in the hospital because of A sabotaging the ladder he was on, Emily confronted Jenna. During their confrontation, Jenna needled Emily about wanting to be more than friends with Toby at one point and how that would've made things more complicated with Maya. What was that about? Emily's gay so she wouldn't have any attraction toward Toby would she? I did think at the start of the first season, Emily and Toby had a flirtation for half an episode though before she thought he was trying to kill her during the dance.

[krimimimi]

My take was that Em was initially (supposed to be?) bi. She certainly dated that creep Ben. But then the decision fell to make her gay. Not sure how the books handled that, or if they even matter, I guess. But now I'm curious - was she bi in the books?

I can't recall seeing Emily doing something like that even once in four seasons and a half.

 

 

On the flip side, Emily has endured much more in the way of awful treatment from Alison than Spencer has from Toby. 

 

Personally I don't bother trying to explain Toby's instant forgiveness because it never made sense on any level or for any character. It will never be explored further because it was just a ratings stunt - "Toby is evil! Gotcha!".

Sorry, my fault - I didn't mean that literally. What I mean is that Emily has been given a number of chances to tell other characters off, and when she does, she makes herself heard. Leaving totally aside the issues of whether she was in the right or not (although I tend to be on Em's side in these things), she's broken up with Paige at least twice and certainly not shied away from a couple of arguments with Maya when Maya crossed whatever boundaries. I felt she was less understanding with Paige's dealing with her coming out than Maya had been with Em (although Em was well within her rights (and quite possibly a very healthy stance to take under the circumstances), but if *I* am forced to think of Maya as a good behavioral example, that argument has got to be more than a little vulnerable, because I didn't like the character and hated the portrayal. The woman made me itch.) I honestly don't recall the relationship ins and outs with Maya well enough to say when they were together or broken up, but I remember scenes after the dinner with Em's mom and sometime later when Maya was smoking pot around Emily. Ignoring the (non-)relationship with Samara (what was it? two dates?), Emily pretty much does the leaving/dictating of terms in her relationships, whereas Spencer seems to get left.

 

I think Emily's generally fairly polite, well mannered and proper, and the most likely of the liars to write you a "thank you" note by far, but in my mind she's not the "nice one." (I'd say that's Hanna (and her mom, actually), who have fairly little (by the show's terms) but offer what they have, apparently to all and sundry, like passing werewolf hobos or friends and acquaintances whose parents have gone AWOL. But it's so heavily buried under ill-mannered gruffness in Hanna's case, that it is really easy to overlook, or just plain undone. If someone feeds you when you're hungry but insults you all the while, can they still be considered nice?) I think Em is fairly direct and in some ways less complex. I see Aria and Hanna both as more ambivalent about Jenna's blinding, sometimes feeling outright guilty about it or sorry for her. I don't see that in Em. Ali seems to be the only one that makes her... weak? stupid? (?? I dunno, I feel Ali diminishes Emily somehow, but I'm clearly missing the right adjective there.), and that's one of the reasons I'd have preferred to have left Ali dead, but if we get some Liar character growth out of this, I'll survive.

 

If they were animals, I'd say Em is some kind of small mountain lion. She roars and Paige cries. And Spence has become more and more of an ineffectual, overwrought ferret, caught in a bear trap, wildly snapping in all directions while desperately chewing at its own leg in a bid for freedom, causing itself far more harm than its initial targets in the process. (You may safely assume that's not literal either... Turned out a bit graphic, but I'll let it stand.)

 

That said, I actually prefer Spencer as a character, even if it might not seem like it.

 

But unless Ali turns out to be A, I disagree very strongly that Emily suffered so much at her hands compared to Spencer/Toby. Emily and Aria got off fairly lightly Ali-wise from what I recall (I think Aria had the "I'll tell your mom you dad is cheating" threat hanging over her head, didn't she? But that was pretty much it?). The Toby/A team steaming pile of poo was something from which I saw no way back.

 

But of course ultimately you're right, there's no way to reconcile something with sense when the writers just decide to "make it so!" I felt so robbed. *sigh*

[Mabinogia]

None of these girls have healthy romantic relationships except Hanna and Caleb who actually talk things out, who may lie for a short time but usually end up coming clean. While Caleb started out on the A Team, when he developed feelings for Hanna he jumped on their team. In contrast, Toby started out on their team (once he got in the game, he was a rogue for quite some time) but then went to the A Team in the stupidest, most contrived story this show has tried to pass off to date because I still can't figure out how him terrorizing Spencer and her friends in any way protected them. He was working, I believe, for MonA who wasn't killer A so what, exactly, was he protecting them from? Being terrorized? No, because he was actually one of the ones doing the terrorizing. The show can try all it wants, ruining Spencer in the process, to make what Toby did noble and for the girls' own good (ugh!) But he is up there with Ezra on the misogynistic, I'm lying and deceiving and hurting you for your own good.

 

Oddly, with Emily, I think she is the problem in most of her relationships. Maya, though I hated her, wasn't mean to Emily or all that controlling really (she looked older than Ezra so it came off a little creepy, but other than that she was at least acting fairly laid back), Samara was a decent enough girlfriend (for this show we have to grade on a curve) and other than holding her head underwater (which is a total Mona as A move as far as terrorizing them goes) has bent over backwards trying to get Emily to love her but I think Emily was so hung up on her "first love" Ali that she subconsciously ruined all her relationships.

 

And yes, while she is the politest, I don't believe she is the sweetest or most forgiving. I, too, would give that to Hanna. Hanna's got a big, big heart. Spencer has got a big, sometimes dangerous imagination and intellect, Emily, to me, is the most fiercely protective and Aria...well, she's Aria. To me she doesn't have that one thing. Maybe because she's meant to be the one who appeals most to the teen girl audience so he's more...well rounded?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Mabinogia

[lion10]

Krimimimi: I've never read the books but I've read that Emily's bi in the book series.

[krimimimi]

Aha! There we go! Thanks Lion10!

I definitely got the feeling that there was at least a nanosecond of interest there in Season One from Em towards Toby (which would make Jenna not totally off the mark with that bit of snark), and had wondered at the time if the writers had then changed their minds as to how they wanted to define Emily's character. I do prefer the friendship route they chose for Toby and Emily instead (and seem to have mostly forgotten). Like I said, I thought she was supposed to have been bi, but I'm not sure that I haven't just conflated that with something I read in the forums respective the books.

[superman1204]

Aha! There we go! Thanks Lion10!

I definitely got the feeling that there was at least a nanosecond of interest there in Season One from Em towards Toby (which would make Jenna not totally off the mark with that bit of snark), and had wondered at the time if the writers had then changed their minds as to how they wanted to define Emily's character. I do prefer the friendship route they chose for Toby and Emily instead (and seem to have mostly forgotten). Like I said, I thought she was supposed to have been bi, but I'm not sure that I haven't just conflated that with something I read in the forums respective the books.

While Emily was bi in the books, I'm not sure that the writers ever intended to make Emily bi on the show.  In the books (yes I've read the first few), Emily did go to a dance with Toby, but she realized that she was doing it because she was ashamed of her feeling for Maya.  Even though she does later develop feeling for a guy, she didn't have feeling for Toby.  I think the writers were going for a similar situation on the show.  That being said, I agree that early in Season One, it felt like Emily and Toby could have been a couple.  So either the writers were considering making Emily bi, like you said, or we got that vibe due to the lack of subtly the writers tend to display and/or the fact that Shay and Keegan don't have the strongest acting abilities.

[cuddlingcrowley]

I've been wondering: did Emily ever have romantic feelings for Toby? When Toby was in the hospital because of A sabotaging the ladder he was on, Emily confronted Jenna. During their confrontation, Jenna needled Emily about wanting to be more than friends with Toby at one point and how that would've made things more complicated with Maya. What was that about? Emily's gay so she wouldn't have any attraction toward Toby would she? I did think at the start of the first season, Emily and Toby had a flirtation for half an episode though before she thought he was trying to kill her during the dance.

 

 

Oh, man, you just reminded me how let down I was when Emily went to the dance with Toby and then revealed Maya was the one she really wanted to be with. Uhg, Maya.

 

That's so weird to remember given how the show shaped up to be and how I've developed as a viewer. I've grown to ship Emily with not one but two of the main girls (Alison and Hanna) and the though of her with a guy is unholy to me nowadays. It's almost as weird remembering that once upon a time Toby was quite an intriguing and even likable character.

 

To answer your question, I personally give a lot of leeway to teenagers when it comes to stuff like this and Emily had just started to come to terms with being interested in girls during this time period. I believe there was enough chemistry that even Emily wondered that might have been something there but in the end she just knew and she really doesn't strike me as a bi even though there was that flirtation with Toby, the asshole boyfriend and that creepy stuff with Nate. The only guy I've ever seen her show any resemblance of genuine interest was Toby but, in retrospect, that chemistry was probably simply a result of them meeting in the right place and right time and bonding over feeling like outsiders.

Edited August 31, 2014 by cuddlingcrowley

[Cranberry]

I think I remember Marlene King asking the fandom if they wanted Emily to be bi on the show, and the answer was a resounding no.

 

Ah yes, I found screencaps of her tweets! (Scroll down past those first two photos.)

[superman1204]

I think I remember Marlene King asking the fandom if they wanted Emily to be bi on the show, and the answer was a resounding no.

 

Ah yes, I found screencaps of her tweets! (Scroll down past those first two photos.)

So three things:

1. Ok I was wrong.  I guess everything on this show isn't the result of questionable writing.  Maybe I should have a little more faith.
2. In response to the article, I agree that keeping Show-Emily gay was the right choose, but I would like to point out that Book-Emily's bisexuality worked for her character and her relationship with her mother and the rest of her family.
3. Emily's sexuality was decided by an informal survey on twitter?  Seriously?  The writers need to care less about what people think of their decision and just try to tell a good story.

Edited August 31, 2014 by superman1204

[Cranberry]

Normally I agree that writers should tell the story they want to tell, but in this case I think it was a smart choice to have Emily stay a lesbian. I don't know how aware you are of the lesbian fandom's extreme hatred of lesbian characters sleeping with men (or bi female characters having a fling with a woman for sweeps and then ending up with a guy), but those things happen a lot on TV and the reaction is never pretty. Marlene is a big supporter of the lesbian fandom (she puts inside jokes into the show for them, like the finale's "Vanderjesus" nod with Mona in the trunk with the baby Jesus), so I think it's sweet that she wanted to respect them.

 

(PLL is also the most-tweeted-about show around, so a Twitter survey isn't that crazy!)

[Mabinogia]

TV is a hard medium to sell a true bi character since TV seems to insist on one true pairings. With a bi character, the fandom is more likely to get into heated arguments about "oh she wasn't really into girls, it was just a phase" or "the show copped out, they're afraid of lesbians so they put her with a guy" etc. Not saying we would all be like that because I think most people here are more open minded than that, but I've seen it with other shows who had bi characters.

 

People in general still can't seem to wrap their minds around the concept of loving a person not a gender and this is NOT the show to try to teach them about it. LOL. PLL has far too many other problems to delve into still fairly uncharted TV territory.

 

I do think they show has done an amazing job handling Emily's sexuality because it's really not a thing. It's no big deal, just part of who she is and she has normal (well, normal for Rosewood) relationship issues that aren't all about the fact that she's gay.

[AmandaPanda]

Emily's sexuality was decided by an informal survey on twitter?  Seriously?  The writers need to care less about what people think of their decision and just try to tell a good story.

 

I'm pretty sure IMK was never going to make her bi. The survey was probably just a way to stir up conversation on Twitter about the show. 

[rho]

None of these girls have healthy romantic relationships except Hanna and Caleb who actually talk things out, who may lie for a short time but usually end up coming clean. ...I don't believe she is the sweetest or most forgiving. I, too, would give that to Hanna. Hanna's got a big, big heart.

 

Yes, Caleb lied and spied on Hanna but he's the only love interest who didn't intentionally torture the girls psychologically. I say intentional, because he probably did mess with Hanna a bit when she thought she was getting the jewelry but found Jenna with it instead. But Ali, Toby and Ezra were seriously mind fucking, not just their love interest, but all the girls.

 

The writing on the show is weak in many ways but the characters are really lacking. I would say Hanna is the most fully fleshed out characters. You know her personality and her motivation. And she has the best relationships with all the other characters. I wouldn't say she's the most forgiving, but like you said, she has a big heart which makes it easier to create and explore relationships with the other characters. I think the only person she holds a grudge against is her dad and his new family but luckily they dropped that storyline. But then again they throw in random tidbits like her not know the name of the SATs but scoring really high on the test. It's very contrived.

 

Emily and Spencer are good characters, but not great. Emily kind of has two personalities. Sometimes she's kind and sweet and forgiving but then something happens and she turns into a vengeful super sleuth. Spencer is great but she's more of a trope than a character. Both girls seem to have conflicting dual personalities. Whenever the show needs to introduce a new secret, it's like they backtrack the character development. Spencer's drug abuse pretty much came out of nowhere as did her kinda fake/kinda real mental breakdown. And I won't even get into Aria. She's just a sidekick masquerading as a main character, but maybe that's what happens when the villains outnumber the heroes on the show.

Edited September 10, 2014 by rho

[Crim]

I thought the Ali/CeCe interaction in 5x13 (the Christmas special) was the most intriguing scene in that episode by far.

 

When they interacted before, CeCe was in a moment of crysis, but this episode was a callback to their old relationship, when CeCe was the older cool friend and Ali wanted to impress her, and they changed and became the soul sisters that creeped out Mrs D. In this scene CeCe was the one to sow mistrust in Ali towards the Liars - maybe with the best of intentions - and the way Ali reacted to that, going for it without a second thought, was plausible, but uncharacteristic. Ali has looked vulnerable at times since her return (possibly an act, possibly not), but now she looked younger (her own age, really).

 

There was also an intensity to CeCe warning Ali and something in her "Mona can't hurt you anymore. You know that." and Ali's reaction to it that made me wonder if the show will try to suggest (not necessarily go that way in the end, but use it as a plot line) that CeCe was the one to kill Mona for Ali.

 

Which reminds me: I wonder what role CeCe played in the Night of a Thousand Yellow Tops. She had one too. So did Ali and now we now that so did Bethany. Was CeCe helping Ali fake her own death; then why didn't they leave Rosewood together? Was that the plan but something came up and Ali only met with CeCe after the Mona events?

 

Back to 5x13, CeCe's gift was perfect.

1. It was "wordly". CeCe the Traveler, something Ali dreamed of (she gave CeCe this, but it doesn't lessen the impact of CeCe as the white cape godsister).

And 2, in a show that is now obsessed with identity, especially the individual vs the twins, in a moment when Ali's identity is so fraught, CeCe arrives and says "This perfume is you." That's like lightning from heavens. Also it is meant literally: she described Ali to some guy and this perfume is "Alison", so when Ali accepts it the subtext is that CeCe really knows her that well. And then CeCe tells her she is in danger from those around her, that the Liars are plotting against her. This scene could be the beginning of the real pay-off of CeCe's existence on the show, everything before it (like the whole 2 Red Coats thing) just a fun slight of hand.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Crim

[DigitalCount]

So, now that the shippocalypse has occurred...how do people think they're going to handle Toby/Spencer/Caleb/Hanna?

 

(casting a vote for "not at all")

[cuddlingcrowley]

So, now that the shippocalypse has occurred...how do people think they're going to handle Toby/Spencer/Caleb/Hanna?

I think either MK will either shamelessly hit reset and get the original couples back together or those 4 won't end up together in any permutation. Hanna will end up with Lucas. At best, we'll get an open ending. Which makes me sad either way because I think Caleb and Spencer really could have gone to distance.

 

As far as Ezria and Emison goes, they're totally endgame. 

 

(I would happily take Hanna and Emily going off in the sunset together, platonic or otherwise, because, imo, they seem to have the strongest friendship of all the girls, by far, followed by Sparia).

Edited March 26, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[SadieT]

I think Hanna and Caleb are going to end up getting back together, although I really wish Caleb would tell Hanna he'd rather try to make things work with Spencer and then Spencer dumps him and both Hanna and Spencer remain single. Caleb can go back to Madrid for all I care. 

 

Spencer and Toby will probably spend a bunch of time dancing around getting back together in season 7, but hopefully Spencer realizes she outgrew Toby and doesn't pull an Aria and fall back into old habits. I could see Spoby deciding to be friends instead.  

 

Ezria is awful but unavoidable. It'll never be truly dead. 

 

I think Marlene is going to string Emison fans along all season and then slap them together in the final episode of the series as a last minute endgame. I just don't see PLL showing Emily and Alison as a legit couple for an extended period of time. Plus it'll take some time to get them into a place where they could even start dating considering Alison is currently institutionalized and married to an evil mask-waring villain.  

[Mabinogia]

I just don't see PLL showing Emily and Alison as a legit couple for an extended period of time.

 

This is so true, and a damned shame because that is an interesting dynamic to explore. How would the two of them becoming a couple rather than friends affect their friendship and more importantly the dynamic of their tight little group. How would the other three treat Emily once she starts dating Ali? Would they trust her as much as they do now? Because they may be friends with Ali, they may not, but they would be damned fools to ever fully trust her. It would also be interesting to see how Emily deals with finally getting the girl she always longed for. Would it live up to her expectations? Or would she finally take off her Ali colored glasses and see that nutcase for the self preserving bitch she really is. Or would Ali soften now that she has finally let someone truly love her? After all, it is what she wants, isn't it? To be loved.

 

I would trade in all the other "romance" bull shit to see just one season of Allison and Emily actually being a couple and all that that would entail. It is far more interesting for me to see a new Ship set sail than to watch all the old ships sail back when they should have been sunk ages ago. There is nothing interesting about watching Aria hop back onto Ezra's crotch, or watching Hanna and Spencer fight for the same guy. Or Spencer fall back on her boring snoozefest with Toby. Why is this show so afraid of abandoning these ships? Do they have so little faith in their writing that they think shippers will leave the show if they don't get to see their favorites together? Are shippers really that shallow?

[Jack Shaftoe]

Personally I would find any Alison/Emily even more disturbingly OOC than Ezria post-chickpeas affair. At least Ezra never thought it would be really cool to drive someone to the brink of suicide and neither has he written letters purportedly written by Aria to achieve it. If they want to cut costs by having Emily hook up with someone who is already a regular, just have her hook up with Hanna or Spencer which would have the bonus effect of ending their feud over Caleb.

 

But knowing how things go in this show, what will actually happen will probably be something like Paige coming back to give her blessing to Emily and Alison, while Hanna/Caleb/Spencer/bunch of people nobody cares about will go on until the series finale.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[Mabinogia]

So it would be more OOC for Emily to try to have a relationship with her first real crush but it's not OOC for her to start a relationship with one of her very straight friends. Okay then.

 

I don't want Allison to be whitewashed to be Emily's girlfriend. I want them to actually deal with the fact that Allison is rather shitty human being but that Emily loves her anyway and what that means in a relationship.

 

If Emily ended up in a relationship with one of her straight friends, that would truly be a shark jumping moment in a show that has been doing the jig with the shark for years now.

 

If Emily is going to go with a gay regular character our options are, sadly (much to the shows discredit), all nutters. Jenna (supposed rapist), Allison (manipulative bitch), Mona (runs people down with cars and probably isn't gay but has shown hints of possible interest in Hanna so I'd buy her turning before I'd buy either Spencer (who screws men left and right) and Hanna (who doesn't exist without a boyfriend), Sarah (less said about that one the better), Paige (who thinks it's fun to hold people's head underwater in a NOT playful way because she was still in the closet) ... maybe Maya the old lady can come back. lol I miss that random blonde chick who was kind of hippy like and I think she was in college and had an interesting name I can't remember. She's probably the only one I ever liked that Emily was into. Emily likes 'em crazy (or in Rosewood all lesbians are crazy so Emily doesn't have any other option).

 

For a show that seems so gay friendly at times, they really don't have any "good" gay characters. They are all pretty bad.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

So it would be more OOC for Emily to try to have a relationship with her first real crush but it's not OOC for her to start a relationship with one of her very straight friends.

 

Alison has been very straight in 99% of her screen time and the 1% in which she hasn't been can easily been construed as her trying to manipulate Emily, so to me this isn't really much of a distinguishing factor, to be honest. Treating Emily, all her friends and one of her girlfriends like dirt for years seems much more of a factor than the slightly higher possibility of Alison genuinely being into women.

 

 

Jenna (supposed rapist), Allison (manipulative bitch), Mona (runs people down with cars and probably isn't gay but has shown hints of possible interest in Hanna so I'd buy her turning before I'd buy either Spencer (who screws men left and right) and Hanna (who doesn't exist without a boyfriend), Sarah (less said about that one the better), Paige (who thinks it's fun to hold people's head underwater in a NOT playful way because she was still in the closet)

 

I freely admit my bias but I don't think Paige belongs to the same category as Alison, Mona, Jenna and Shower.

[Mabinogia]

You are right about Paige. I don't think she's in the same category as the others, but she's not exactly the picture of mental stability either. I'm more pointing out that so far Emily hasn't really had many nice, normal girls to choose from. I'm not saying that the straight girls have many mentally stable boys to choose from, though other than being a bad actor Toby isn't that bad, and Caleb is pretty normal (for a guy who temporarily lived in a haunted town but I like to pretend that never happened). I just feel like the show has kind of had a hard time giving Emily a convincing love interest. Paige was quite polarizing. Same for Maya. And while one could say Ezzzzria is also very polarizing, the show seems to want to cater to their fans.

 

Outside of saving Emily for Allison, and I'm not even a shipper of them, though in the right hands, as I stated, it could be a fascinating psychological study in why Emily still harbors a flame for such a horrible person, because I do believe that Emily is still into Allison. I don't think it's healthy, or good, but I think it's there. And I think until they "hook up" Emily won't ever really be over her. I think it has to happen for Emily to be able to move on.

 

I don't disagree that it is absolutely insane for Emily to still love Allison, but I also think it's absolutely insane for Aria to still love Ezra after finding out he was stalking her and allowing her life to be in danger for a book!

 

As to the first point Allison's 1%, even if it was manipulation is still 100% more than Spencer or Hanna have shown to be into girls for any reason at all. So since OOC means out of character, I do believe it would be 100% out of character for Spencer or Hanna to suddenly date Emily. While it would be only 99% OCC for Allison. And it is 100% in character for Emily to be into Allison (it's canon).

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Outside of saving Emily for Allison, and I'm not even a shipper of them, though in the right hands, as I stated, it could be a fascinating psychological study in why Emily still harbors a flame for such a horrible person, because I do believe that Emily is still into Allison.

 

Well, yes, theoretically it can happen in the right hands, but the people who are going to write it are going to be the same bunch of geniuses that gave us Emily/Sara and the never-ending saga of Ezria and who instead of adding any depth or clarity to Alison's characterization post-season 5A turned her into a completely different person.

 

 

And it is 100% in character for Emily to be into Allison (it's canon).

 

On a purely physical level, yes. On any other level - so much of Emily's character development is tied to rejecting Alison and her mean girl ways. And yes, I know that Alison magically changed and is going to be proclaimed as a saint any day now but still I am really not buying that Emily would forgive her to such an extent. Especially with Rosewood (prior to 6B at least) being a town where she can hardly leave her house without astonishingly hot women throwing themselves at her. Emily/Spencer or Emily/Hanna would be rather implausible and fanfiction-y, sure, but at least they wouldn't be saddled with the unfortunate implications of Emily/Alison.

[Mabinogia]

The one thing I think we can agree on is, whatever direction they decide to go, the writers will probably screw it up anyway. HAHA. The saddest thing about the 5 year jump for me is that Emily didn't get a nice, normal love interest. Well, that and that the whole thing was pointless since I (however many eps we just had) everything was pretty much reset. I was so stupidly excited to see that Ezra and Aria didn't end up together, and that the show had the guts to break up both Hanna/Caleb and Spencer/Toby, but in a few short weeks they undid all of that because heaven forbid this girls not end up with their high school sweethearts. UGH.

 

Actually, more I think about it, more realistic Emily's dating life seems. I think most people go through a few people in high school as they learn who they are and what hey like. Seems more realistic than ending up with the person you picked at age 15/16. I know that those relationships can work as well, but 3 out of 4 girls end up with their high school sweetheart? I just don't think so.

 

And as much as I love the idea of Spencer and Caleb together, and think they are a much better fit than their other relationships, I pretty much hate that the show did it because of what it is doing to Hanna's character mostly, but the others as well and their friendship mostly. As many of us have said, the girls' friendship is the backbone of this show and one of the best things this show had going was that they never did a triangle with any of the core four. So much for that one beautiful thing about the show.

[SadieT]

Alison’s not a 15 year old mean girl anymore so I don’t think she’s a horrible person undeserving of Emily’s love. People change and Alison has apologized for her past and put the work in to change. Still, I think there’d be some trust issues on both ends considering the girls’ complicated past, but it’d be interesting to see them try to navigate those issues, which is why it’d be a shame if they only made Emison happen at the last second.

 

Alison has been very straight in 99% of her screen time and the 1% in which she hasn't been can easily been construed as her trying to manipulate Emily, so to me this isn't really much of a distinguishing factor, to be honest. 

 

Alison has had "romantic" scenes with about 4 people (Ian, Lorenzo, Rollins and Emily) so not exactly 99%, although you can’t really put a percentage on someone’s sexuality. This is actually why it might be a good idea for the show to explore the Alison/Emily relationship, because despite Alison having openly admitted to having feelings for a girl and then sleeping with that girl, people still refuse to accept that she’s not straight. Hell, it doesn't even have to be Emily, it'd be interesting to see Alison date any girl at this point. 

 

On a purely physical level, yes. 

 

Emily’s attraction to Alison wasn’t purely physical. Their whole thing was that Emily could see who Alison really was deep down and that’s why she loved her.

 

I know it’s common for Paily and Emison shippers to be at odds, but I think Paige and Alison are actually pretty similar in that they were both driven to be not the best versions of themselves by fear. But we got to see Paige come to terms with her fears rather quickly, whereas we only knew Alison through other people’s eyes for years. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Emily’s attraction to Alison wasn’t purely physical. Their whole thing was that Emily could see who Alison really was deep down and that’s why she loved her.

 

Alison was a (borderline) sociopath, I would like to believe Emily isn't really into that, even though we joke that she likes such people. Just because Alison magically changed for plot convenience reason years later doesn't mean Emily's initial attraction to her was anything different than the usual TV plot of the "good" girl being inexplicably attracted to the "bad" boy, followed later by him changing in an astoundingly implausible fashion. Alison being younger than the usual for this character archetype makes it a smidgen more plausible but still not exactly a characterization effort any writer should be proud of, IMO, not least because 99% of this change happened off-screen. If at 15 you think it's totally cool that your brother is kissing his half-sister and that mocking the girl you have blinded is perfectly normal, you are probably not going to be anything but a sorry excuse for a human being at 23 or 53 either. Or, if you want a more recent examples - demanding from the Liars to testify that they would be in favour of Charlotte's release.

 

 

I know it’s common for Paily and Emison shippers to be at odds, but I think Paige and Alison are actually pretty similar in that they were both driven to be not the best versions of themselves by fear.

 

Fear had nothing to do with most of the terrible things Alison has done. She bullied people primarily because she enjoyed it, something that Paige (or Emily for that matter) has never done and chances are will never do.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[Peanut6711]

On 7/13/2016 at 7:25 AM, kitmerlot1213 said:

Spencer needs to get over herself--Hanna kissed Caleb in a moment of high emotion and fear.  She was about to serve herself up to their new stalker and she was scared.  I guess for Spencer it's only okay to kiss people when your are drunk and decide to have sex in an elevator.  I want Spencer to be redeemed the way Hanna's been--she's trying to do the right thing for her friends and I admire her nobility.

Spencer made clear to Caleb that she could have gotten over the kiss, but she suspected it was more than just a kiss. She called him out on having feelings for Hannah. And then when she told him she loved him, he yet again could not say it back. At this point, Spencer knows her feelings for Caleb are greater than his feelings for her. He wanted her to give him time for his feeling to develop deeper; Spencer doubts that will happen and wants someone who will feel the same way about her.  I'd say Spencer is the smartest and most mature of the bunch when it comes to relationships. She's not willing to settle for someone that only "likes" her but is still in love with his ex. She feels that she deserves better and she does. Any woman does. Plus if she hadn't called Caleb and Hannah out on what happened at the motel, neither of them seemed likely to tell her and admit what they did wrong. If I was Spencer, I certainly wouldn't trust those two alone together.  All in all, Spencer knows the romantic relationship with Caleb has gone as far as it can go. Her bar hook up was more of a stressed out knee jerk reaction to someone paying her attention after the distant way Caleb treated her and the realization that they can't really salvage what they had on top of the disaster in the woods only hours earlier.  I don't see anything she needs to redeem.  

In other relationship news, why is Yvonne still around?  I thought her and Toby were over the night of the election?  Why are all these people beating dead horses when it comes to relationships?  For a show set 5 years from the last season, most of these characters haven't grown much at all.  Completely agree with everyone on the handling of the car wreck. It was asinine and shows that they never learn. Plus they could have probably freed Allie from Welby that night by explanation of his kidnapping of Allie who messaged them for help along with the photo evidence of him gaslighting her. Which, wasn't that evidence in the bag he took along with him--in other words in the car somewhere?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Peanut6711

[Lii]

Yeah, evidence of FIRST DEGREE MURDER, YO.

This show, I can't even any more. It's like, at least give me something to latch onto so my shitting on it can feel fresh and creative. Ugh. So stale. I miss when Tanner had a psychogun for an arm.

[SadieT]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

(*Ok, I KNOW that each older guy said that they never slept with Ali, so that's canon, but it makes no sense for them not to have. Marlene King just didn't want to commit to that aspect. I mean, if Ian/Ali weren't sleeping together, then Ian's actions make no sense. Also, the Ezra thing. And Wilden. And whatever other older guy she was sleeping with. So my canon is that she slept with all of them. Ok, back on topic).

So yeah, not impressed with Addison in the slightest. 

If Wilden is Beach Hottie like some people think, then it is canon Alison slept with him because didn't she think she was pregnant that summer? I could buy that Ali and Ezra never had sex because I don't think they spent much time together before she disappeared. Never understood why the show walked back on Ali and Ian and basically said they were sneaking around to hold hands...it made no sense considering this show's otherwise lax attitude towards statutory rape. 

[Froippi]

your always going to have different opinions on statutory rape the bigger issue has always been he was a teacher more than anything but if you go after him for the teacher part of it then i think Byron should lose his job to cause he did something like that to when he was a professor in college my thing has always been if he/she is 16+ the rule goes out the window but i know some people feel differently

Edited April 24, 2017 by Froippi

[SadieT]

14 minutes ago, Froippi said:

your always going to have different opinions on statutory rape the bigger issue has always been he was a teacher more than anything but if you go after him for the teacher part of it then i think Byron should lose his job to cause he did something like that to when he was a professor in college my thing has always been if he/she is 16+ the rule goes out the window but i know some people feel differently

It's not really a matter of opinion though, there's laws and every state has an age of consent and different laws. Even in states where the age of consent is 16, there's often stipulations about people in positions of power like teachers so Ezra/Aria is statutory rape, although the writers tried to excuse it by saying Ezra was temporarily not teaching when they first slept together. Alison was only 15 when she disappeared so any older guy she slept with would also be guilty of statutory rape, especially Wilden who was like a 30 year old cop (although he's never been confirmed as beach hottie). Byron should have lost his job, but his affair with his student wasn't illegal because she was an adult unlike Aria with Ezra.