Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[munchiewoman]

I don't like this "Mat is a danger because he's got darkness" either. Mat's a scamp, but he's loyal and good inside. I did like Rand defending him.

Nynaeve getting herself some before possible death is a welcome change from the immaturity of her "I hope she feels it" moment in the book. I love book Nynaeve, but she could make me roll my eyes at times. And we kind of got a hair tug!

Min is darker than I'd like, since I love book Min and her kind, easy way, but this could be interesting. I would have liked to have seen more of her visions. 

Tigraine was badass, but not as pretty as I was expecting. And I feel wrong and shallow for thinking that.

What child is Rand holding in Min's vision?

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by munchiewoman
Typo. Of course. Clarity

[Humbugged]

Quote

She had to go hiking and a fight broke out, or she had to get into a fight that was located on a mountain? For that matter, who is making all these prophecies? Why are people so insistent on following them?

6 years before this she was the Queen of Andor and her Aes Sedai (she had trained at the Tower herself) told her that she was involved in the Prophecy and she had to go to the Waste so she left her husband ,her son and Throne and headed east . Met Rand's dad trained as a Maiden and talked him into letting her go fight on the Mountain as he was her  Clan Chief

Edited December 17, 2021 by Humbugged

[Which Tyler]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

*Takes a deep breath*

Mat has been recast for season 2, with a new actor. Original Mat was supposed to go into the ways with the rest of them, but he didn't return after the Covid hiatus, necessitating re-writes.  Apparently, he's also deleted all his social media accounts, and no-one in the know seems to be saying anything.
We've no idea how much notice anyone had that he wasn't returning - but we do know that recasting takes time, especially if you want to recast well.

Pretty sure it's all been discussed earlier in this thread.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Which Tyler

[SueB]

5 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Mat has been recast for season 2, with a new actor. Original Mat was supposed to go into the ways with the rest of them, but he didn't return after the Covid hiatus, necessitating re-writes.  Apparently, he's also deleted all his social media accounts, and no-one in the know seems to be saying anything.
We've no idea how much notice anyone had that he wasn't returning - but we do know that recasting takes time, especially if you want to recast well.

Pretty sure it's all been discussed earlier in this thread.

I knew he had been recast.  I didn’t know the timing impacted his storyline to this extent.  The trip to the Eye of the World is the only time we have all 5 on the same trek at the exact same time. It’s part of their bond (IMO). So his absence is hard to take. 
 

I get we don’t know any rationale.  I just wasn’t (personally) aware of the impact to story. 
 

That said here’s how I (if I were in charge but know I am not qualified) would weave him back ‘into the pattern.’  Warning: Long post skip to Bottom Line TL;DR.   

Things they enabled:

1) They had Moraine send the Reds after him. 
2) They’ve (at least tentatively) broken up the Remaining Edmund 4 at Fal Dara by having Rand recognize ‘It’s me.’ This puts only Rand and Moraine in the Blight.  Lan can catch-up but speaking PURELY from a Mat POV; it limits how much they do as a complete group minus Mat. 
3) Rand’s defense of Mat (you don’t know what he’s been through!) is at least partially mollifying that one of them doesn’t think he’s a complete shit. 
 

Things they’ve put out there that damages Mat’s character (IMO):

1) They had Moraine say there was a darkness in him that drew him to the dagger. 
2) Egwene’s scoff at Mat being the Dragon Reborn. Countered by Rand’s defense.  I was not mollified by her later statements of love.  That scoff was meant to be instinctual IMO.

Things to remember- no character is 100% reliable narrator in the book.  I’m not sure what the show’s position is.  And eventually Rand’s sanity will be an issue.  

With that background, this is the story I’d weave:

1) Mat chose not to go because he felt he would either get everyone killed or kill them himself.  He was still worried about that family.  He still feels the dagger (most likely) and may be worried that if he’s the dragon, then everyone else dies. He may also have been worried that the darkness he feels makes him a danger even if he’s not the Dragon.  So, in short, make Mat’s rationale about fear of hurting others versus cowardice.  I think this has a high likelihood of being used. 
2) The Reds catch him and hurt him as they think he’s dangerous.  Since Moiraine can’t go back to the Tower (and didn’t in the book), it may be up to Nynaeve/Egwene to free Mat.
4) With Paden Fain there, I think he still has the knife and gets the horn.  So if someone at the Tower recognizes Mat is still tied to the knife, then Mat may rejoin Rand and Perrin looking for the Horn. I hope so.  
 

BOTTOM LINE for TL;DR.  The departure resulted in Mat’s story needing correction.  I think they can get him back in the ‘pattern’ and hope they do so.  

[DoctorAtomic]

I said before, if anyone is going to call bs on going in the Ways on a goose chase it's Mat. I wouldn't have had a problem without the re-casting if Mat stayed behind. He's obviously essential to the story. I'm sure they'll come up with a way to get back on track. 

Silver lining - while I'm not a fan of Mat has 'darkness', either we know what's in store, so think of it as a redemption arc. Plus, you have the scene with Rand defending him has some foreshadowing. 

I have to think non bookers had to be way confused at the opening scene.  

Did the books have Machin Shin speak to them? That was super!

I'm kind of worried, they are making Ny too bad ass too early. I mean, she cleanses the taint and discovers balefire first. She's not even close to Rand. 

WOW I didn't know that was Min. What and introduction! 

The scene with just the four was really well done. It seems like a lot of non book scenes are much better. It was like us talking outside of the books or what I thought they should have said in the books. Even 'They're both big and brood.' I hope they continue to poke fun on some of the more sloggish aspects of the books. 

They're just killing it with Lan. Even with the added scenes of Moiraine and Lan actually talking, they've done wonders with bringing basically nothing to an actual person. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

I have to add they're doing well with Ny too. There was a little more to her in the books than Lan, but she was still always just angry all the time, and there weren't many actual person moments until way way later on. I mean, you didn't get that she was protective of the kids more than yelling at them. I wasn't expecting them to have sex so soon. Again though, the books were terrible with actual relationships. 

I thought it was a good narrative choice to reveal Lan's backstory at this point too. 

I liked that they showed Rand doing the 'flame and the void' with the bow later on because it's so essential to him channeling. I don't think non bookers might have caught on to that, but it seems TPTBs actually got that. It's a well done subtle detail. We're talking about the most powerful channler ever since the last Dragon with no one to train him.

I had speculated a while back if they were going to take a GOT approach and have the second to last episode be the 'big' episode.

I can't really say the reveal of Rand was particularly well done. I think they hedged too much to not make it obvious, but I don't think they needed to be so subtle either. It's cool you all picked out Rand channeled when breaking the door down. I know they couldn't be so overt at that point, but flashing back and showing the power felt tacked on. If I was a non booker, I'd kind of call it out. tbh, having the Machin Shin say it made no sense if Moiraine is saying not to listen to it. 

I also very much agree with having Tam deliver the baby as a great choice.  

 

 

[quarks]

Ok, I will quietly admit here that if this Egwene/Perrin thing ends up ridding us of both Gawyn and Faile I for one will withdraw my objections to what we've seen so far from Egwene/Perrin in the show. BUT THAT'S ME.

So....show Min is not 100% certain that the things she sees always happen? Because she saw Rand with that baby, but then wasn't able to tell Rand that he would return from the Eye of the World.

Speaking of that baby, uh, if memory serves, Rand as Rand doesn't get to hold any of his own kids, right? That seems like quite a switch, unless that vision was actually of Rand thinking about what he learned about his birth from Tam, and what Min was going to tell him later.

[Danny Franks]

About Mat, I'm going to say this - I don't believe he's a particularly good person until after they go through the Portal Stones and he experiences all those alternate lives, where he sees other poeople (Rand, in particular) pay the price for his selfishness and his lack of discretion.

His character is very much a discordant presence, in the first two books - in book one with the dagger and him becoming darker and darker and in book two he's the one who immediately believes the worst of Rand and sneers at him at every opportunity, then he's the one who tells Rand they can't be friends any more because Rand is "too dangerous."

So I honestly don't mind the show making a big deal about the "darkness within him" and setting up a need for him to redeem himself in season two. I think that's absolutely supported by the first two books, and I also think that they were incredibly lucky on the show that they included those early scenes of Thom as a possible mentor to Mat. That's going to come into play in his season two storyline, for sure.

About Min... look, I am not Min's biggest fan in the books. I think she's too much of an enabler to Rand when he's at his worst, and she does it just so he'll allow her to be near him. It's incredibly unhealthy and I think it goes unscrutinised by book readers. Her being around also ends up being the catalyst that sends him to the lowest depths of his darkness. I like her much more when she has scenes with anyone but Rand.

But I think this TV version was interesting. Definitely wearier and more cynical and far less intrigued by Rand than in the book. It's a shame (but not a surprise) that a lot of the self-proclaimed "whitecloaks" on Reddit hate what the show has done to their dream waifu. Complaints that she's too old, that she's not attractive, that she doesn't seem like the perfectly cute, sexy and unassuming tomboy they dreamed of.

[Perfect Xero]

So as far as I can recall no one on the show has explained the significance of the heron mark, and Rand has not been shown training with a sword at all?

[Humbugged]

58 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

So as far as I can recall no one on the show has explained the significance of the heron mark, and Rand has not been shown training with a sword at all?

Episode 1 next season is where we are told about it

[Jack Shaftoe]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

About Mat, I'm going to say this - I don't believe he's a particularly good person until after they go through the Portal Stones and he experiences all those alternate lives, where he sees other poeople (Rand, in particular) pay the price for his selfishness and his lack of discretion.

His character is very much a discordant presence, in the first two books - in book one with the dagger and him becoming darker and darker and in book two he's the one who immediately believes the worst of Rand and sneers at him at every opportunity, then he's the one who tells Rand they can't be friends any more because Rand is "too dangerous."

I think this is rather unfair to Mat - we can't know how much of that was the dagger's influence.  And in any event, Rand arguably was too dangerous. Mat didn't have the luxury of knowing he was a main character and therefore in possession of a thick plot armor. Him behaving as if Rand were a ticking time bomb when male channelers in that world are pretty much that isn't something I can't hold against him much. If anything, I think the super optimistic attitude of Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene in regards to Rand is a little too convenient.

And considering that people literally use the Dragon as a boogieman with whom to scare children, Moiraine's assertion that it can't be Mat because he had inherent darkness is more than a little weird.

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

Ok, I will quietly admit here that if this Egwene/Perrin thing ends up ridding us of both Gawyn and Faile I for one will withdraw my objections to what we've seen so far from Egwene/Perrin in the show. BUT THAT'S ME.

YOU ARE ALL OF US. Please yes. Although I don't know what Perrin would be doing otherwise. Perhaps he could marshall the forces of the wolves as part of the last battle. He's separated so much from everyone, there's not much else for him to do. 

10 hours ago, quarks said:

That seems like quite a switch, unless that vision was actually of Rand thinking about what he learned about his birth from Tam, and what Min was going to tell him later.

That's what I took. Showing the scene with Tam probably led Rand to think he might be the Dragon + Loial calling him an Aiel. 

Like I said, I give TPTBs an A-, so I'm not tearing the show down. I think it's fair to criticize that they've been too subtle with Rand though. The connect with Tam delivering the baby would have landed better if they explained the Foretelling in more detail in the prior episode. They showed a baby being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. The non bookers are like, 'and?' You have the both together AND Tam is there, it's like, oh, ok, that baby is the Dragon then. 

I mean, he's not really really the Dragon until Callendor for me, so having some doubt adds to the drama imo. 

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

His character is very much a discordant presence, in the first two books - in book one with the dagger and him becoming darker and darker and in book two he's the one who immediately believes the worst of Rand and sneers at him at every opportunity, then he's the one who tells Rand they can't be friends any more because Rand is "too dangerous."

That's because Rand could channel. I hope they keep that though. Mat actually has the most growth for me tbh. Rand is trapped by his own destiny until the last page where he doesn't whatever nonsense body switching that all of a sudden he doesn't explain internally. Viewers are going to need to buy into Mat's growth. I mean, the guy invents artillery and has the brilliant idea of using the Gateway to harry the dark forces. 

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Complaints that she's too old, that she's not attractive, that she doesn't seem like the perfectly cute, sexy and unassuming tomboy they dreamed of.

Well, those incels probably couldn't attract someone like her anyway. I hope the show gives Min more depth in exploring the whole philosophy of the Wheel. She did give Rand the idea that he would likely have to unBore the Bore because in the future/past there wasn't a Bore at some point. 

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Moiraine's assertion that it can't be Mat because he had inherent darkness is more than a little weird.

Moiraine was saying what Moiraine wanted to hear at that point because Mat was a 'stupid boy' (which he was for taking the dagger), and she didn't want it to be him. Lan was making too much sense, and she wanted to shut him up because they're going to the Eye and that was that.

While I still think it's silly that all five could have been the Dragon, not knowing *who* it is (it could have just been the guys) is actually a better choice. show-Moiraine has been much more interesting to me, and I generally liked her in the books. Her being all out of sorts was a fantastic narrative choice. She just wants to know who the Dragon actually is so she can sit down for five minutes. 

I didn't like that she was trying to 'handle' Rand, and I liked their relationship when she returned. I wonder if the show will kill her off for real? You still need Mat to lose the eye, but I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to be the price to free her.

I can't imagine who else Rand would trust with Callendor at the end other than her and Ny though. Avienda? 

Are they airing the finale on xmas eve next week? I don't know if I'll be able to watch. I'm going to be chomping at the bit if I can't talk to you people for 2 weeks. 

[Black Knight]

18 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

YOU ARE ALL OF US. Please yes. Although I don't know what Perrin would be doing otherwise. Perhaps he could marshall the forces of the wolves as part of the last battle. He's separated so much from everyone, there's not much else for him to do. 

If Faile isn't on the show, then most of the mechanism for separating him from the others so much is gone and he could be more part of the main storylines. They could write something new for him, or give him stuff from other characters they won't have be part of the show either.

One issue with going with Perrin/Egwene over Faile and Gawyn is that TV Perrin lost one wife. It would be really cruel to the character to have him end the TV show losing a second wife (if they went with Perrin/Egwene, I assume they'd marry before the end, just like Perrin/Faile and Egwene/Gawyn did). Egwene's end is sad enough in itself without it so impacting another character who already lost one wife.

They could change it so that Egwene survives, of course. But then...while I don't like that Egwene died, I think the end does need to have a death in the core group from Two Rivers. There needs to be a cost to the final showdown. Although I guess there are other ways to accomplish it - LOTR managed it with the scouring of the Shire and Frodo being so damaged. Or they could go the opposite direction and have Perrin die too. After all, Gawyn does.

As a related aside: Given the Aes Sedai bond with Warders, I wonder what it would mean to have the Amyrlin Seat bond someone like Perrin with his wolf thing. Would Egwene be able to tap into the wolves too?

[DoctorAtomic]

25 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

They could write something new for him, or give him stuff from other characters they won't have be part of the show either.

There's a million characters we don't need that Perrin could take on some of that while still doing wolf things. 

25 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

One issue with going with Perrin/Egwene over Faile and Gawyn is that TV Perrin lost one wife.

This would be different though. You're kind of selling me on it because Perrin did give her the idea for the reverse balefire that defeated Taim. She was never super strong, and he was kind of the last 'modern' bad guys that needed to be defeated. Of course, if Taim is going to be Demandred, Lan absolutely has to defeat him, buy you could still have another Demandred powerful acolyte. Any of the Asha'man could be taken from the background to fill that role. Even Dashiva. He didn't really do much in the books but ger blown up, and we all thought he was a Foresaken most of the time anway. 

29 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

They could change it so that Egwene survives, of course. But then...while I don't like that Egwene died, I think the end does need to have a death in the core group from Two Rivers.

I think she has to, and Perrin has to live. He can be inspired by her death to raise the Manetheren banner again. Taking out the ridiculous Faile stuff, he's got a nice story on that end. 

[quarks]

We won't know for eight more seasons, but given that vision of Rand in his current Rand form cradling a child, I am kinda wondering how much the show is planning to stick with the ending - since that gave me the impression that either Rand is going to have the chance to hold one of his kids before the Last Battle, or  isn't going to die/shift into Ishmael's second body. Fairly big change either way.

So I think that at least opens up the possibility that show Egwene won't die after all. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd be fine with Rand dying because he's going to live again when the Wheel turns. Same with Egwene. But hold his child before the last battle would be fine.

tbh, the ending fell way flat for me. If it were the turning of the Age, then the unBore should have eliminated channeling entirely for me. Basically, they won the battle and then everything was back to normal. I mean, he's walking around looking like Ish. What if someone thinks it's actually Ish and tries to take a shot at him? 

Although it would be cool at the end to flashforward to like a steampunk world or something and we see the characters reincarnated. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

I kind of like the idea of the show finally ending the same way the books do, with Rand in Moridin's body, lighting his pipe without channelling and everyone asks "wait, what does that mean?" and all the book readers, Brandon Sanderson and Harriet McDougal say, "we honestly don't know."

If Robert Jordan had lived to write that spinoff series about Mat and Tuon, then we'd have found out more about post-Last Battle Rand. Presumably we'd have seen that Foretelling about him being on a boat with his three ladies come to pass, as he went to Seanchan to help Mat out (this is my supposition).

[DoctorAtomic]

tbh, I couldn't stand the ending so much that I wasn't going to even watch the show, but hearing that there would be changes piqued my interest. 

[Perfect Xero]

I suspect that the stuff with Perrin and Egwene is a signal that they're planning on combining their respective Tel'aran'rhiod/Wolf Dream plots.

Reading the books I kept waiting for the two of them to realize they were both floating around in dream world all the time and start teaming up, and it kept not happening.

[DoctorAtomic]

Did Perrin ever realize he was in Tel'aran'rhiod?

[Which Tyler]

Did Perrin ever know T'a'r existed?

[Humbugged]

5 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Did Perrin ever know T'a'r existed?

Yes he did .But I guess we will set all of that next season when Eggy gets taught about it

[SueB]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Did Perrin ever realize he was in Tel'aran'rhiod?

He met Egwene and Nynaeve in The White Tower.in Tel'aran'rhiod.  I don’t recall if they used the word specifically but he knew they could come and go. 

[Which Tyler]

Thank you - showing how long it's been since I read them

[Humbugged]

the Seanchan turn up this week with no collars but  gags

https://press.amazonstudios.com/us/en/photos#Photos-1

https://press.amazonstudios.com/us/en/photos#Photos-4

 

 

[Danny Franks]

Those contraptions are very creepy. I think it works as a visual representation of a device that robs someone of their humanity and individuality.

I fucking hate the Seanchan.

[DearEvette]

Wow.  The Seanchan.  Those pics look awesome.  Also, yeah, I dislike them so hard.  LOL.

[DoctorAtomic]

I was hoping they'd kind of not be as huge a deal. Outside of Rand legitimately earning the heron, I thought their plot dragged. The fact that the people holding the leashes could channel was patently obvious and not this huge reveal. 

[munchiewoman]

I always hated the Seanchan but I kind of squeed when they showed up.  I'm not sure I like the lack of a leash. Treating human beings like dangerous pets is kind of central to the Seanchan.

So many changes from the books in this one, but it worked for me mostly.  Perrin uselessly getting angry and chasing after Padan Fain but not really doing anything?  Didn't care for that.  The eye being nothing more than a fighting spot, with nothing special about it, since the horn was being hidden in Fal Dara?  Didn't care for that.  Loial getting stabbed by the Shadar Logoth dagger?  Didn't care for that.  If he survives, I'll be happy, but he shouldn't be able to survive that and I think the dagger should be more important and fearsome than that. I know the end of tEotW is a mess, but too much of it was erased for me.  No Green Man?  Sad.

But 5 women, three of whom were clearly too weak to be Aes Sedai and two completely untrained, all banding together to face a horde?  I loved it. Amalisa feeling the power fill her, when she'd never been able to feel much more than a trickle before?  Gave me chills.  

Why permanently shield/still Moiraine?  Also done when she has masked the bond...He mentioned it, so it seems the writers want that to be an important aspect of this.  Though, if Nynaeve manages to unshield her, and then the bond is effectively back in place, that could mean something.  Also, it seems weird Lan making the speech about another man making her happy after sleeping with her.

Why did we get that glimpse of Mat?  Where was he?

Still excited to see where this story goes.  It's not the same story, but then, legends change as time goes by and different people tell the story.  I'm surprisingly ok with that, even with some important changes.

[DoctorAtomic]

Ah, I was wondering if they'd air the finale on Christmas eve. 

Dilemma - I want to watch on my 27" screen, but only have my tablet. I don't think I can wait til next week though. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Ooooh, I didn't know we'd get a Lews Therin flashback. 

The Blight was a really good, creepy look. 

I thought it was a good idea to have Rand and Moirane alone together to actually bond a little given how important she's going to be. I really enjoyed her just talking to him as a person. I really enjoyed their scenes. 

Ish as a person was hilarious. 'Sit down!' 

It looked to me like when Rand was having Lews flashbacks, Moirane looked at him like, 'ok it's you for sure.' 

Does she actually know about the Foresaken on the show? 

Wasn't Rand at Tarwin's Gap? I thought he blew them all out. 

I liked Rand being on guard in the dreams. There's enough going on that I don't need Rand to be dumb to move the plot. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Humbugged]

1 hour ago, munchiewoman said:

I always hated the Seanchan but I kind of squeed when they showed up.  I'm not sure I like the lack of a leash. Treating human beings like dangerous pets is kind of central to the Seanchan.

So many changes from the books in this one, but it worked for me mostly.  Perrin uselessly getting angry and chasing after Padan Fain but not really doing anything?  Didn't care for that.  The eye being nothing more than a fighting spot, with nothing special about it, since the horn was being hidden in Fal Dara?  Didn't care for that.  Loial getting stabbed by the Shadar Logoth dagger?  Didn't care for that.  If he survives, I'll be happy, but he shouldn't be able to survive that and I think the dagger should be more important and fearsome than that. I know the end of tEotW is a mess, but too much of it was erased for me.  No Green Man?  Sad.

But 5 women, three of whom were clearly too weak to be Aes Sedai and two completely untrained, all banding together to face a horde?  I loved it. Amalisa feeling the power fill her, when she'd never been able to feel much more than a trickle before?  Gave me chills.  

Why permanently shield/still Moiraine?  Also done when she has masked the bond...He mentioned it, so it seems the writers want that to be an important aspect of this.  Though, if Nynaeve manages to unshield her, and then the bond is effectively back in place, that could mean something.  Also, it seems weird Lan making the speech about another man making her happy after sleeping with her.

Why did we get that glimpse of Mat?  Where was he?

Still excited to see where this story goes.  It's not the same story, but then, legends change as time goes by and different people tell the story.  I'm surprisingly ok with that, even with some important changes.

The actor left before 7 & 8 were filmed and probably why it was Perrin

[munchiewoman]

37 minutes ago, Humbugged said:

The actor left before 7 & 8 were filmed and probably why it was Perrin

I know he left, but why did they show that brief glimpse of him and where was he walking into? What exactly was the point of showing him?  What did it really add to last night's episode?   But still, all Perrin did was whine and yell, which is not really how I see him.  What happened to measured Perrin? A change, I get it, these are not exactly the same characters. But he grabbed an ax and didn't use it, which allowed Padan Fain to dump some exposition on us, but overall, it was useless.

[SueB]

A LOT to take in. I’ll leave brief snippets now and come back after a second watch. 
 

-LOVED the Lews flashback. Better than anything I imagined. 
- Not happy about Moraine being stilled. It better be fixable. maybe it was just a shield and it will fade farther away from the blight. 
- Picture of Mat was in Shadar Logoth.  Implying he went their. I hope they don’t make him actually dark. 
- Bad ass channel FTW
- The Seanchan are scary AF 

[DoctorAtomic]

I guess there's no Hunt for the Horn if they knew where it was. Why the change? Although I guess they can hunt Fain. I hope Mat still blows it at Falme. 

I don't know if I liked the Eye with the changes here. There's no way he killed Ish obviously. I wanted a real kill. 

I liked the women linking though. 

I don't think Moirane is actually stilled because I would think she'd have way more of a reaction. I assume it will fade too. 

I'm not sure what Rand is going to do on his own either. 

Ugh Seanchan. Pain in the ass. 

That was a really weak finale in what's been a good season. I hope non bookers aren't turned off. 

Not for nothing, I was expecting way more from Rand channeling. 

 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I speculate that they made the Eye a downer because they want doubt next season as to whether Rand is really the Dragon. I'm convinced Moirane does, but Rand isn't around and she's only one person. 

Hopefully that will make Callendor way way epic since he does actually die, and the channeling better be off the chain. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Now I'm thinking that Ish tricked Rand into breaking the first seal and that's going to let the Foresaken loose. 

He's also not as nuts as he should be. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

So I really wanted the whole thing to be a trap that Ishy set to free the rest of the Forsaken - get Rand to break the first seal and they all escape (unseen, if you like, no need to cast them all yet). That's a change I would have enjoyed.

What we got was... weird. I don't know what led the writers to the place where they said 'Rand channels and Ishy disappears and that's it. Then Rand leaves. Meanwhile, the Shienarans get slaughtered and Amalisa leads an amateur Circle and destroys the Trolloc army.'

Most changes this season I've been fine with, because I could see how they fed into the larger story and helped set up a lot of future story. This time, even with bits that made sense (like Amalisa losing it, to show the risks of channelling too much) the whole thing just felt like they're making things even more difficult for themselves in season two.

Where's Rand going? What's Mat doing? What's Moiraine going to do? Who's going to take the girls to Tar Valon? Is Perrin just going to chase after Fain to save Loial?

And key - what are non-readers going to think of the Dragon's entire battle at the Eye being internal and so anti-climactic?

[DoctorAtomic]

That was a big swing and a miss at the Eye unless they immediately address it was an Ish plot to play Rand and Moirane next episode. 

I guess I'm liking Fain stealing the Horn. I'm the books, he's just there all the time and it was annoying. Here, Perrin is the only one who knows who took the Horn, so they both have something to do. 

No idea where Rand is going to go, but he has to end up at Falme. 

[DearEvette]

5 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Most changes this season I've been fine with, because I could see how they fed into the larger story and helped set up a lot of future story. This time, even with bits that made sense (like Amalisa losing it, to show the risks of channelling too much) the whole thing just felt like they're making things even more difficult for themselves in season two.

Yeah. this is me.  The changes they made -- not yet introducing the Trakands, hurrying up the Nyn/Lan romance and the revelation of Lan's identity, introducing Liandrin early etc. -- I have been ok with. 

But the stuff at the Eye was not ... great and imo weakened the story.  Also, even as a book reader I was confused about who that was at the eye.  I assumed it was Ishmael, but Moiraine calling him 'The Dark One' confuses things.  And it would have been nice to get some face time with Ishy sending out the Dark Friends to search for Rand et al to get them to the eye so we could see that both sides were working toward that goal and not just Moiraine.

I do wonder how much of their plans they had to scrap because of the Mat situation and if this was the result?

[Danny Franks]

So I've read that Covid had more of an impact on these last two episodes than I thought.

Obviously, Barney Harris didn't return so that meant they had to rewrite everything involving Mat. But they also didn't have any of their practical Trolloc performers or access to a lot of the locations they planned to shoot in, which included Blight locations.

The knock ons from this resulted in spending a lot more on CGI for the battle and on building Blight sets for Rand and Moiraine to walk through.

There are probably a load more issues that we aren't aware of. I'm prepared to give them some leeway, considering how unprecedented this has all been.

20 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I assumed it was Ishmael, but Moiraine calling him 'The Dark One' confuses things.  And it would have been nice to get some face time with Ishy sending out the Dark Friends to search for Rand et al to get them to the eye so we could see that both sides were working toward that goal and not just Moiraine.

I'm pretty sure that was still Ishy. None of them knew that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael at the end of book one. Moiraine suspected, after the fact, because she didn't believe the Dark One could be killed, but it was only confirmed at the end of The Dragon Reborn, when he's killed and they say something like 'he had a human body, so can't have been the Dark One.'

Right now, I'd say the best opening for season two would be the prologue from book one, now people know who Lews Therin is and know that Fares Fares is playing the bad guy. They could use that to reveal he's not the Dark One.

[DoctorAtomic]

The guy is definitely Ish. 

In the dream, he appeared in his red flame eyes get up to Rand and then switched to his human face. 

Don't forget even after Callendor, they still thought Ish was the Dark One. There's still a long way to go. 

I also think we need a Bad Guys pov at some point. 

So far it's really only been Moirane. 

[DearEvette]

32 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The guy is definitely Ish. 

In the dream, he appeared in his red flame eyes get up to Rand and then switched to his human face. 

Don't forget even after Callendor, they still thought Ish was the Dark One. There's still a long way to go. 

So then this is where I have a lot of sympathy with the non-Book readers because, IIRC, I don't think the show has established Ish as a person.  We never got the Lews/Ish showdown from the prologue. 

I just think it would have enrichened the story from a character standpoint to establish the major human nemesis for The Dragon who is working in the Dark One's interests.  Even if the characters think he is the Dark One, the audience could know it is just Ish.

[DoctorAtomic]

I tend to agree. I don't think the non bookers think it's actually the Dark One though tbh, but they don't know who the guy actually is either. That doesn't quite work either. 

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I speculate that they made the Eye a downer because they want doubt next season as to whether Rand is really the Dragon.

The show's done with the doubt. Josha Stradowski had an interview with Entertainment Weekly after the seventh episode in which he was explicit that Rand is the Dragon.

[DoctorAtomic]

I meant within the show. 

[munchiewoman]

 

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I tend to agree. I don't think the non bookers think it's actually the Dark One though tbh, but they don't know who the guy actually is either. That doesn't quite work either. 

If he was the Dark One, it's pretty lame.  Hell, it was pretty lame with it being Ish.  He just stood next to him and offered him a dream life.  Then did nothing as Rand drew on the power and then, poof!  All over.  

Contrast with Logain's gentling, and it was so ... not interesting or stake worthy.  We got glimpses of how powerful Ish is, but no real battle, no fight. Contrast with the end of book tEotW?  Moiraine going up against Forsaken, even if we didn't really know who they were, Egwene throwing her completely untrained bit of power to help, Lan's split second decision between Moiraine and Nynaeve, the creep factor of Aginor and Balthamel, the agony they put on Moiraine...so much happened in the Eye of the World that was about how brave these people are and how much they cared about each other and instead we have....Rand turning away from a dream? Standing 2 feet from Ish and using a sa'angreal instead of the wonder of the pool of power?  Plus, if I hadn't read the books, I'd be wondering what broken cuendillar means, but I think it could have been something as simple and ominous as Moiraine saying that the seals on the Dark One's prison were made with cuendillar and if all 7 break, he will be free.  Something.

I am still excited for next year, but this was really not the best season ending, I don't think.  They didn't quite stick the landing for me.

[Danny Franks]

26 minutes ago, munchiewoman said:

 

If he was the Dark One, it's pretty lame.  Hell, it was pretty lame with it being Ish.  He just stood next to him and offered him a dream life.  Then did nothing as Rand drew on the power and then, poof!  All over.  

Maybe it's me being influenced by how anti-climactic the scene was, but I took it to be Ishamael (who it definitely is, I'm sure) just being there to present Rand with that choice and gauge his character. 

He did this through their dreams, in the book, as he was trying to figure out which of the three boys was Lews Therin.

So anyway, I think he tested Rand with the choice, then just bounced when he realised it wasn't going to be as easy to turn him. Ishy has been at this for a thousand years, he's not in a hurry.

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, it was definitely a win for Ish. I think he planned it to see if Rand could be sidelined. Breaking the Seal was a bonus. 

I still think they should have shown the Prologue with the 'we've always done this' to tip off the non bookers. 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Oh, it was definitely a win for Ish. I think he planned it to see if Rand could be sidelined. Breaking the Seal was a bonus. 

I still think they should have shown the Prologue with the 'we've always done this' to tip off the non bookers. 

Regarding the prologue scene, it could have worked in this episode as one of the visions Ishy showed Rand - just use a bit of it to show Lews Therin reacting to his dead family and Ishy gloating about how he killed them in his madness.

That would have set up Rand's decision to leave far better than "I can feel the madness."

Then show the full prologue at the beginning of season two, when people know the context of who the two men are, what's going on and what it means.

They just didn't have time, which has been the core of so many of the problems the show has encountered this season.