Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

Show-wise though, I could see Moraine watching Rand channel and wipe out the army, and be like, 'oh he's def the Dragon', but viewers might not actually believe it. Logain could channel. Now Rand does. And? 

She thinks Ny is too old. So what? That wouldn't convince me. How do they know how actually old she really is? People have already said they thought she was the dragon. 

In the books, since they know the dragon is supposed to be a guy, and then Rand channels and kills the Foresaken at the Eye, then it's like, yeah, it's probably him. We can say that with some reasonable confidence. 

Are they going to show the Foretelling? Because that would help. Moiraine on the show hasn't really dropped any of the more specified Dragon prophecies. 

[Black Knight]

I'd expect them to have written and filmed it in such a dramatic way that it doesn't leave doubt in viewers' minds that this is The Reveal. My guess is they'll make it the very final minute of the season. Moiraine says dramatically that he is the Dragon Reborn, and Rand is filmed in hero pose, everyone around gazing awestruck, music swelling triumphantly, then cut to black and end credits. Something like that.

[DoctorAtomic]

I still think they need to do the Foretelling. There needs to be something soon to suggest Rand wasn't born in the Two Rivers either. 

I feel like we're running out of show. They've done a really good job, but the reveal of the Dragon needs to be earned or the non bookers are going to call bs. 

[quarks]

7 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I still think they need to do the Foretelling. There needs to be something soon to suggest Rand wasn't born in the Two Rivers either. 

I feel like we're running out of show. They've done a really good job, but the reveal of the Dragon needs to be earned or the non bookers are going to call bs. 

As far as I know/can tell none of the characters with the Foretelling will be showing up this season. But I think Min is appearing this season, so they could use her viewings, or possibly use Egwene's dreams, or even Perrin's. 

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I meant the Foretelling that the dragon was reborn, and then she died. Where only Moiraine and Siuan were there. I would think that scene would be worked into this season. 

The non bookers don't Moiraine and Lan have been tromping around for like two decades at this point, and knowing that, and dropping Rand wasn't actually born in the Two Rivers seems crucial. 

[Humbugged]

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I still think they need to do the Foretelling. There needs to be something soon to suggest Rand wasn't born in the Two Rivers either. 

I feel like we're running out of show. They've done a really good job, but the reveal of the Dragon needs to be earned or the non bookers are going to call bs. 

We have Tam and Tigraine fighting at Dragonmount and possibly how Tam found him to come and the last epi is Eye Of The World where they find the chest with the banner and the horn . If the season finishes like that do you think that will be enough ?

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know what is coming up. I'm only spoiled because I read the books. I don't know what's included or not beyond what you're telling me here. I figured the Foretelling was an essential scene. I'm not sure it's clear that finding the dragon is literally Moirane's life work. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[quarks]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No, I meant the Foretelling that the dragon was reborn, and then she died. Where only Moiraine and Siuan were there. I would think that scene would be worked into this season. 

The non bookers don't Moiraine and Lan have been tromping around for like two decades at this point, and knowing that, and dropping Rand wasn't actually born in the Two Rivers seems crucial. 

I thought Moiraine said something along those lines in the last episode - "Twenty years. Twenty years we've been looking for them, and we lost them."

Agreed that the show could work in some sort of flashback to that previous Foretelling - but I'm not sure that showing that scene would necessarily point to Rand, because I think in the show version that Foretelling didn't use the word "he." Moiraine seemed to think that Egwene could possibly be the Dragon, after all.

[Humbugged]

30 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know what is coming up. I'm only spoiled because I read the books. I don't know what's included or not beyond what you're telling me here. I figured the Foretelling was an essential scene. I'm not sure it's clear that finding the dragon is literally Moirane's life work. 

It is in the 2nd full trailer with Tigraine fighting somebody from the Companions with Ilianer armour on with the Bees in sight

6 minutes ago, quarks said:

I thought Moiraine said something along those lines in the last episode - "Twenty years. Twenty years we've been looking for them, and we lost them."

Agreed that the show could work in some sort of flashback to that previous Foretelling - but I'm not sure that showing that scene would necessarily point to Rand, because I think in the show version that Foretelling didn't use the word "he." Moiraine seemed to think that Egwene could possibly be the Dragon, after all.

They are going to give you his birth and maybe Tam/Rand coming to town and Tam's fever dream

[staphdude]

On 11/27/2021 at 4:27 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I assume they're ending this season at the Eye. Rand channels there, and Moiraine is convinced he's the Dragon. Is the show going to do that? Just because he can channel doesn't necessarily means he's the Dragon within the show context, since they're laying it on thick that it could be Ny as of E4. And even just because he can channel. Rand didn't think so in the books either. 

The final ep. of the season is entitled "the Eye of the World" so hopefully we can put the id of the Dragon behind us.

18 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

She thinks Ny is too old. So what? That wouldn't convince me. How do they know how actually old she really is? People have already said they thought she was the dragon. 

In the books, since they know the dragon is supposed to be a guy, and then Rand channels and kills the Foresaken at the Eye, then it's like, yeah, it's probably him. We can say that with some reasonable confidence. 

So many non-readers are swinging towards Nynaeve based on the 4th episode and will likely be upset with the Rand reveal...Silly to make these changes to draw out an unnecessary "mystery" especially if it pisses off an audience.

[Danny Franks]

24 minutes ago, staphdude said:

The final ep. of the season is entitled "the Eye of the World" so hopefully we can put the id of the Dragon behind us.

So many non-readers are swinging towards Nynaeve based on the 4th episode and will likely be upset with the Rand reveal...Silly to make these changes to draw out an unnecessary "mystery" especially if it pisses off an audience.

I don't think it's silly or unnecessary. Giving your audience a question they want to know the answer to is a great hook for any TV series. Saying, 'this dude is it, but the others might be important too' from the first episode really doesn't work for a TV format.

Look at the discussions over who the Dragon Reborn is - lots of it on this site, lots on Reddit and other social media sites, a lot of YouTube reactions from people who haven't read the books are into the mystery. Amazon want fan engagement, and that question is driving it.

Revealing that it's Rand shouldn't be a disappointment because it's all about how it's revealed, and what he does when it's revealed. And by the time it is revealed, we'll have it clear in our heads that the others are important characters too. I've been very happy with the show so far, and haven't minded the changes because I can see why almost all of them have been made and how they set the show up for long term success rather than being slaved to a narrative that was designed to be read.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Danny Franks

[DearEvette]

10 minutes ago, staphdude said:

So many non-readers are swinging towards Nynaeve based on the 4th episode and will likely be upset with the Rand reveal...Silly to make these changes to draw out an unnecessary "mystery" especially if it pisses off an audience.

I find this so interesting.  Even if I weren't a reader of the series, I am an inveterate tv watcher.  And no way would I assume on a tv show they'd show all their cards that early. If anything, I'd just think she is a top contender but with the caveat that I am fully aware that another shoe can drop and a circumstance can happen that would make one of the other ones step up to the plate as well.  Tv does fake outs all the time. Heck books do as well.  They drop obvious hints that would lead you to one conclusion only to later show they've been dropping subtler breadcrumbs to lead somewhere else totally. 

[SueB]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:29 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm surprised no one is pointing out that if it's the end of the age, then the wheel should be spinning out some powerful channelers. 

I'm not sure they know WHAT to expect at the end of the age.  Just that shit starts to get wild.  But I don't remember in the books there being a prophecy of or expectation of stronger channelers. They just happened.

[SueB]

Other EP 4 thoughts:

LOVED:
- Nynaeve the BadAss.  That last scene was awesome.  Her embarrassment at the three way was adorable.  But.. what is this link to Malkieri?!
- Reveal there is something wrong with Mat with him tossing his cookies.  And yet we see his gentler side with the little girl.
- Thom's motivation reveal: guilt over his nephew - book consistent. Although he thinks it's Mat.
- Alanna the BadAss.  She was great in the battle.  Which makes the pending Nynaeve vs Alanna event a BIG DEAL.  
- The 'link' flows.  And the arm-movement of existing trained Aes Sedei in contrast with the RAW POWER of Nynaeve.  Shits getting real.

LIKED:
- Ila's Tinker talk.  It's nice to get the "Way of the Leaf" explained - honestly, I think it was better done than the book.

MEH:
- I wasn't a fan of the Kerene Sedei/Stepin connection portrayal.  In general I didn't like Stepin that much.  But I felt like his "insanity" wasn't super clear that it was insanity.  Yes, he was in rage-mode but .... it felt like more intent?  IDK.  Maybe we'll get a better story.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I think in the books later on, someone said that you're getting really big shot channelers because the last battle is coming. 

[staphdude]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't think it's silly or unnecessary. Giving your audience a question they want to know the answer to is a great hook for any TV series. Saying, 'this dude is it, but the others might be important too' from the first episode really doesn't work for a TV format.

Look at the discussions over who the Dragon Reborn is - lots of it on this site, lots on Reddit and other social media sites, a lot of YouTube reactions from people who haven't read the books are into the mystery. Amazon want fan engagement, and that question is driving it.

Revealing that it's Rand shouldn't be a disappointment because it's all about how it's revealed, and what he does when it's revealed. And by the time it is revealed, we'll have it clear in our heads that the others are important characters too. I've been very happy with the show so far, and haven't minded the changes because I can see why almost all of them have been made and how they set the show up for long term success rather than being slaved to a narrative that was designed to be read.

For me the richness of this story makes the who is the Dragon “mystery” unnecessary. That journey covered in all those books is more important that simply establishing the central protagonist. YMMV

[ElizaD]

The last episode is titled The Eye of the World but I'm wondering, is there a way to twist the plot so that something reveals Rand as the Dragon in episode 7? I like the idea of the flashback with Tigraine's death/Tam finding Rand being the opening of the last episode, but the flashback should come after the reveal for the most impact. Maybe the Ways will have some of the vision element of the portal stones? If the show decides that only one method of fast travel is needed, the stones might get cut.

I read that the show has cast Lews Therin and, surprisingly, Latra Posae, the leader of the female Aes Sedai. Episodes 7-8 should have a lot of flashbacks, plus the Malkier exposition, and I'm curious to know how the show has arranged them. The last episode's title makes it sound like it has the biggest event and not just GOT finale-style wrap-up and set-up for the next season.

[Humbugged]

Am on Reddit where some think that they should have untrained wolves running about with the actors unlike the wolf-dogs they are training to follow commands

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Humbugged said:

Am on Reddit where some think that they should have untrained wolves running about with the actors unlike the wolf-dogs they are training to follow commands

Reddit is full of people with hysterically terrible takes on what should and shouldn't be done with this show.

Fortunately, they're mostly downvoted and ridiculed apart from in their own little 'the fascist allusions are completely accidental, honest!' haven, r/whitecloaks.

[Humbugged]

29 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Reddit is full of people with hysterically terrible takes on what should and shouldn't be done with this show.

Fortunately, they're mostly downvoted and ridiculed apart from in their own little 'the fascist allusions are completely accidental, honest!' haven, r/whitecloaks.

They need 30 seasons ,they should have said who the DR im the first 5 mins of episode 1 ,why was there no Camelyn (no matter that a 5 mins scene would have required 5 actors to be paid for the whole season ) and on and on , and this is on the main r/WOT pags the fantasy page and the TV one not the whitecloaks as those are just nuts

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Humbugged said:

They need 30 seasons ,they should have said who the DR im the first 5 mins of episode 1 ,why was there no Camelyn (no matter that a 5 mins scene would have required 5 actors to be paid for the whole season ) and on and on , and this is on the main r/WOT pags the fantasy page and the TV one not the whitecloaks as those are just nuts

They're all dumb, and a lot of them are arguing in bad faith on top of that. I have noticed that they seem to rear their heads immediately after an episode airs, whine about things, then crawl back into their basements.

I've seen so many "why Steppin storyline?" complaints that have utterly failed to grasp that Steppin's story was about Moiraine and Lan, and the threat that hangs over their heads should something happen to one of them.

We know that Moiraine starts to worry about what her death would do to Lan, as early as The Great Hunt, and that she makes arrangements to prevent him from doing what Steppin does here. But viewers don't, and they need to be shown just how much the loss of an Aes Sedai can destroy a Warder, and how that preys on the minds of both Warder and Aes Sedai. It also highlights the weight of the decision to be bonded, and underlines Lan saying he felt pride at serving Moiraine.

[Humbugged]

6 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

They're all dumb, and a lot of them are arguing in bad faith on top of that. I have noticed that they seem to rear their heads immediately after an episode airs, whine about things, then crawl back into their basements.

I've seen so many "why Steppin storyline?" complaints that have utterly failed to grasp that Steppin's story was about Moiraine and Lan, and the threat that hangs over their heads should something happen to one of them.

We know that Moiraine starts to worry about what her death would do to Lan, as early as The Great Hunt, and that she makes arrangements to prevent him from doing what Steppin does here. But viewers don't, and they need to be shown just how much the loss of an Aes Sedai can destroy a Warder, and how that preys on the minds of both Warder and Aes Sedai. It also highlights the weight of the decision to be bonded, and underlines Lan saying he felt pride at serving Moiraine.

The why the Steppin storyline , and they arguments over burials in what is doing me in ,and they have moved back on to the cloaks at the minute

[quarks]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

We know that Moiraine starts to worry about what her death would do to Lan, as early as The Great Hunt, and that she makes arrangements to prevent him from doing what Steppin does here. But viewers don't, and they need to be shown just how much the loss of an Aes Sedai can destroy a Warder, and how that preys on the minds of both Warder and Aes Sedai. It also highlights the weight of the decision to be bonded, and underlines Lan saying he felt pride at serving Moiraine.

Yeah. I'm assuming the Moiraine/Lanfear confrontation won't happen until the fourth or fifth season - especially given that Lanfear hasn't even been mentioned yet, unless I missed something. But when it does happen, I think the show will want viewers to understand just how hard this impacts Lan.

It also looks as if the show is trying to cut down on the number of Aes Sedai with speaking parts - Liandrin appears to be getting tidbits of Elaida's plots, for instance, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Liandrin ends up as the Amyrlin Seat instead of Elaida. Which I have mixed feelings about - Elaida was hardly one of my favorite characters, but I kinda did like having a non-Darkfriend character who ended up sabotaging the White Tower mostly through pure ineptness.

But this also leads me to think that the show is going to leave out Myrelle and merge her character with Alanna. Which means that this whole Steppin plot was also a setup for Alanna's later bonds with Rand and Lan. So, yeah, important.

On a totally different note, Portal Stones! Two of them! Loial correctly guessing that Rand is Aiel!

 

[Danny Franks]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

Yeah. I'm assuming the Moiraine/Lanfear confrontation won't happen until the fourth or fifth season - especially given that Lanfear hasn't even been mentioned yet, unless I missed something. But when it does happen, I think the show will want viewers to understand just how hard this impacts Lan.

Yeah. They've established now that viewers will know exactly what it means to a warder if an Aes Sedai dies. And the assumption, at least, should be that something similar happens when a warder dies. I think the first warder death in the books was Alanna's warder in the Two Rivers.

1 minute ago, quarks said:

It also looks as if the show is trying to cut down on the number of Aes Sedai with speaking parts - Liandrin appears to be getting tidbits of Elaida's plots, for instance, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Liandrin ends up as the Amyrlin Seat instead of Elaida. Which I have mixed feelings about - Elaida was hardly one of my favorite characters, but I kinda did like having a non-Darkfriend character who ended up sabotaging the White Tower mostly through pure ineptness.

But this also leads me to think that the show is going to leave out Myrelle and merge her character with Alanna. Which means that this whole Steppin plot was also a setup for Alanna's later bonds with Rand and Lan. So, yeah, important.

I definitely think Alanna will be the one Moiraine passes the bond to, so we should get a lot of time with her later in the series. I'm happy about that. I also think her warder juggling and her preparedness to accept something that is generally not done - passing on a warder bond - will lay the groundwork for when she bonds Rand without his permission.

I don't think they'll combine Elaida and Liandrin, but I'm not as sure as I was before this episode. I do think Elaida as a misguided antagonist who is not a Darkfriend is important, and Liandrin is a significant enough character now to make her reveal as Black Ajah really work.

I have a theory that Siuan will return from Caemlyn (or was it Cairhien?) and tell Moiraine that there's been a foretelling about the Eye of the World, and the artefacts held there that will be crucial to defeating the Shadow. It would work nicely if as-yet-unseen-Elaida is the one who gives Siuan this information.

1 minute ago, quarks said:

On a totally different note, Portal Stones! Two of them! Loial correctly guessing that Rand is Aiel!

Yes! Rand noting the Karaethon Cycle too, and the Forsaken statues - I think, other than Ishamael, you can identify Lanfear, Asmodean, Graendel, Semirhage and a couple of other male figures who could be a combo of Rahvin, Sammael and Demandred.

[Humbugged]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

Yeah. I'm assuming the Moiraine/Lanfear confrontation won't happen until the fourth or fifth season - especially given that Lanfear hasn't even been mentioned yet, unless I missed something. But when it does happen, I think the show will want viewers to understand just how hard this impacts Lan.

 

 

Probably season 3/4 . And she turns up next season

14 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't think they'll combine Elaida and Liandrin, but I'm not as sure as I was before this episode. I do think Elaida as a misguided antagonist who is not a Darkfriend is important, and Liandrin is a significant enough character now to make her reveal as Black Ajah really work.

I have a theory that Siuan will return from Caemlyn (or was it Cairhien?) and tell Moiraine that there's been a foretelling about the Eye of the World, and the artefacts held there that will be crucial to defeating the Shadow. It would work nicely if as-yet-unseen-Elaida is the one who gives Siuan this information.

 

Liandrin goes on the run next season with the Black

Loial is still there and he is where that info came from so thaey can keep it the same . I think Siuan went to check out Elaine and Elaida bring her to the tower next season

[quarks]

22 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't think they'll combine Elaida and Liandrin, but I'm not as sure as I was before this episode. I do think Elaida as a misguided antagonist who is not a Darkfriend is important, and Liandrin is a significant enough character now to make her reveal as Black Ajah really work.

I have a theory that Siuan will return from Caemlyn (or was it Cairhien?) and tell Moiraine that there's been a foretelling about the Eye of the World, and the artefacts held there that will be crucial to defeating the Shadow. It would work nicely if as-yet-unseen-Elaida is the one who gives Siuan this information.

I mostly wondered because some of the dialogue here, about Liandrin gaining influence in the Tower, and not just with the Red Ajah, was used to describe Elaida's growing influence at the start of The Great Hunt.

Before this episode, I figured they were just planning on having Liandrin pretty much follow her own plot, maybe combining it with some of Galina's stuff, since Liandrin helps introduce some of the major antagonists of the series. And then I heard this episode's dialogue and thought, hmm.

I continue to like Liandrin much more in the show than I did in the books, and I think she's much more effective in the show as well.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

Elaida was hardly one of my favorite characters, but I kinda did like having a non-Darkfriend character who ended up sabotaging the White Tower mostly through pure ineptness.

That was the best. Every page, was like, 'could you just stop for a minute and look around?!!' I don't know if it would hold viewers though because it might be hard to buy that an Aes of that stature would fail up so hard. 

[quarks]

44 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That was the best. Every page, was like, 'could you just stop for a minute and look around?!!' I don't know if it would hold viewers though because it might be hard to buy that an Aes of that stature would fail up so hard. 

It depends. I bought it because I've known people like that in real life - absolutely 100% convinced that they are correct, completely unaware of how easy they are to manipulate, and amazingly incompetent. I think it could work on screen.

I guess we'll see?

[Humbugged]

I cannot wait until next week when Siuan (oh for the fishing referances) turns up and the world is confused that she and Moraine have been plotting this shit for 20 years and letting the world think they fell out

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I like this theory floating around with the non-bookers about them all being the Dragon. 

At least I pronounced Tar Valon right. Ogier, no. 

I also agree with you all about setting up the effects of the warder bond here, for later on with Lan. I think it's incredibly important and nearly impossible to show visually. I'm enjoying them showing the warders being actual friends. I think the strongest part of the adaptation is this part. I think it's interesting that they're showing Ny getting along with the warders. I don't remember that either. There's going to be lots of paradigm shifts for the status quo coming down. 

Similarly, they're doing way better with Liandrin. She has a point about men controlling the world. I can't wait till they reveal she's Black. There's so much more weight to the scenes now. 

8 hours ago, quarks said:

On a totally different note, Portal Stones!

They actually looked like I thought. 

Mat is my favorite, but dagger-Mat wasn't ever my favorite plot. They're doing it well though. I think it's interesting that they're leading on that Rand thinks he's the one who channeled. The non bookers caught on that Rand channeled to break the door though. I wouldn't have caught that. 

Again, the Whitecloaks are just useless. The actor is killing it, but I have zero interest in Valda. Either Ny or Rand could level them at this point, and it's halfway into book 1. 

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Loial correctly guessing that Rand is Aiel!

 

8 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Yes! Rand noting the Karaethon Cycle too,

And Farstrider! It doesn't look like the non bookers picked up on that detail about Aiel, so I hope they remember. The show is certainly laying down plenty of cards for way down the line. 

They got the scene in with Logain seeing Rand, but layed it heavy on Mat.  I do think that was important especially since no one copped Rand yet. I wish they showed the glow around them though. 

Was Egwene and Perrin with the Whitecloaks in the books? I have zero memory of this. I did like them covering the details about the hands and channeling. I appreciated the groundwork in the scene if they're going with her being collared or the Seat. Also, it's a good scene for the yellow eyes for Perrin. 

I didn't recognize any of the Foresaken, but it was great way to exposit. 

I'm going to be interested in how long the non bookers are going to have the patience for all this Aes nonsense once it's established who the Dragon is. It's not just the Tower, but there was a LOT of squabbling over 1000s of pages. 

They're going to go bonkers over Lan if this show goes all the way to the end. 

 

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was Egwene and Perrin with the Whitecloaks in the books? I have zero memory of this. I did like them covering the details about the hands and channeling. I appreciated the groundwork in the scene if they're going with her being collared or the Seat. Also, it's a good scene for the yellow eyes for Perrin. 

 

Yep - in the very first book, after they are separated from the rest of the group.

It didn't end up mattering all that much to Egwene, but since Perrin killed a couple of Whitecloaks, the Whitecloaks versus Perrin plot ended up going on for several books. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I got nothing there. Again, goes to show any investment I had in the Whitecloaks. I mean, they're basically the Spanish Inquisition, and when I read the books, I wasn't expecting that. 

However, being not affiliated with a sovereign entity; Andor, Illian, etc., they're just a bunch of incels. Someone like the Prophet, I can buy. People joined up with Logain, and there was a false Dragon iirc even in Hawkwing's times. 

 

 

[Humbugged]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I got nothing there. Again, goes to show any investment I had in the Whitecloaks. I mean, they're basically the Spanish Inquisition, and when I read the books, I wasn't expecting that. 

However, being not affiliated with a sovereign entity; Andor, Illian, etc., they're just a bunch of incels. Someone like the Prophet, I can buy. People joined up with Logain, and there was a false Dragon iirc even in Hawkwing's times. 

 

 

The Whitecloaks picked them up and were then killing the wolves (they killed Hopper),Perrin killed 3 of them ,then in The Great Hunt because Perrin was there at the death of Bornhold asshole Byar told Bornhold jr that Perrin was responsible and then they all turned up in the Two Rivers in Shadow Rising with Fain

[Wouter]

9 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I got nothing there. Again, goes to show any investment I had in the Whitecloaks. I mean, they're basically the Spanish Inquisition, and when I read the books, I wasn't expecting that.

Valda's Whitecloaks (in the show) are questioners. Other Whitecloaks, like the group of Bornhald the elder, are probably less unreasonable.

Regarding a question you asked in an episode thread, Padan Fain was the person spotted twice watching Matt and Rand. There are audio cues as well, subtitles point those out if engaged.

[Danny Franks]

In the show it seems like Valda's zeal for killing Aes Sedai is a relatively new wrinkle to deal with. Moiraine and Lan didn't know who he was, but did know about seven other sisters being killed.

I can see him as being a man who has recently risen to prominence, and his success is fuelling his power even more. And as I type this, Rafe's phrase, "hidden Forsaken," rings in my head and I don't like it. I want Valda to be a very human, very non-Darkfriend zealot of the Light.

[ElizaD]

23 hours ago, quarks said:

I mostly wondered because some of the dialogue here, about Liandrin gaining influence in the Tower, and not just with the Red Ajah, was used to describe Elaida's growing influence at the start of The Great Hunt.

Before this episode, I figured they were just planning on having Liandrin pretty much follow her own plot, maybe combining it with some of Galina's stuff, since Liandrin helps introduce some of the major antagonists of the series. And then I heard this episode's dialogue and thought, hmm.

I don't know where people are getting all the info (Twitter?), but elsewhere I saw someone refer to the showrunner as having said that season 2 will have two El- characters (Elayne and Elaida, then). Of the two early Reds Elaida is far more important, so now I'm wishing the show had just cast Fleetwood as Elaida, given her everything she's doing this season as Liandrin, and figured out some non-Darkfriend way to get the girls to the Seanchan in season 2 - they're certainly making bigger changes to the books than that. Show Liandrin is starting to feel like such a big deal that I'm curious how they're planning to make Elaida stand out. Whatever happens, I hope Liandrin gets some of Galina and/or Alviarin's material and stays relevant longer than in the books.

2 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I can see him as being a man who has recently risen to prominence, and his success is fuelling his power even more. And as I type this, Rafe's phrase, "hidden Forsaken," rings in my head and I don't like it. I want Valda to be a very human, very non-Darkfriend zealot of the Light.

I hope hidden Forsaken just refers to Lanfear's disguises and a return to Jordan's original plan of Taim being Demandred. Elaida was the #1 example of how people who don't serve the Shadow can still screw things up for the Light and the more prominent Show Valda should be the Whitecloak version of that.

There were eight Forsaken statues, right? Four men and four women. Ishamael and Lanfear are a must. Two of the women looked like Semirhage and Graendal (I thought she might be in danger of being cut because there's so many Forsaken schemers but maybe the show wants the sex appeal). That leaves Moghedien or Mesaana (in the White Tower) and three men - I'm guessing Demandred, Rahvin and Sammael. Show Rand can learn to channel from LTT's memories so Asmodean is not an absolute necessity.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know how you people picked out the Foresaken. They didn't look like anything to me. I don't care if they keep them all, or cut them down from 13. We went over this a little while ago. I forgot there's one in the Tower. There are some that are essential. I don't think the show should resurrect any except Ish though. I thought that was kind of lame. 

They didn't spend much time on them so I don't know if non bookers got that they're Really Bad. I suppose they don't really need to know yet. I'm surprised they haven't commented on Ish at all. 

I don't think it makes sense to have Valda be hidden. A Foresaken would rather turn the Aes to the Dark. They're all scheming to be Naeblis, so they need their own personal channelers. 

Plus, as much as it annoyed me, you do need just regular people making a complete mess of everything after Rand is revealed. Getting the crown of Illian really needs to be earned. That's for nothing to do really with Rand being able to channel. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, cutting a couple of Forsaken doesn't bother me too much. Though I do think the eight statues don't necessarily mean there will only be eight Forsaken. Some might be unknown, or Stepin might not have collected the full set of Forsaken action figures when he was younger.

Mesaana is the one in the Tower, but they could easily just give Alviarin or Liandrin her role as the Dark One's agent.

Be'lal appears and is gone within a few pages, only for Rand to then have to fight Ishy. Again.

Aginor and Balthamel are similar, but in my version of this series I'd keep them as the big bosses at the end of the season and not have Ishy show up - save him for Falme in season two. Rand fights Aginor while the three women fight Balthamel.

Someone on Reddit pointed out that one of the figures appeared to be holding a guitar, so that would be Asmodean. 

Lanfear is necessary, and Moghedien. Depending on how they adapt the middle books, they may be able to combine Sammael and Be'lal or Sammael and Rahvin. I think we'll definitely get Graendel and Semirhage, just because they're such strongly different characters who will pop on the screen. And Demandred will likely be Taim in this version, as RJ originally planned.

[Wouter]

5 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I don't know where people are getting all the info (Twitter?), but elsewhere I saw someone refer to the showrunner as having said that season 2 will have two El- characters (Elayne and Elaida, then). Of the two early Reds Elaida is far more important, so now I'm wishing the show had just cast Fleetwood as Elaida, given her everything she's doing this season as Liandrin, and figured out some non-Darkfriend way to get the girls to the Seanchan in season 2 - they're certainly making bigger changes to the books than that. Show Liandrin is starting to feel like such a big deal that I'm curious how they're planning to make Elaida stand out. Whatever happens, I hope Liandrin gets some of Galina and/or Alviarin's material and stays relevant longer than in the books.

I hope hidden Forsaken just refers to Lanfear's disguises and a return to Jordan's original plan of Taim being Demandred. Elaida was the #1 example of how people who don't serve the Shadow can still screw things up for the Light and the more prominent Show Valda should be the Whitecloak version of that.

Ishamael is also a hidden forsaken, arguably. Agreed on Taimandred being a must, if Demandred is in the show.

As for the el-characters: technically, Elmindreda (Min) is also an -El. And there is also Elyas (possibly).

[Humbugged]

Well Reddit continues to be nuts . They now want the whole cast sacked along with .the show runner ,Harriet and  Brandon .It should have been an anime apparently

[DoctorAtomic]

If it pleases the mod, do continue to report here on reddit shenanigans.

I'm assuming that this reddit cabal are book readers. What would 5 hours of show actually do here for them? 

The show has done a ton of heavy lifting for only 5 episodes. There's nothing wrong with watching any tv show with a critical lens; not hate watching, but calling out inconsistencies is fair. I'm always critical watching a show. No one is going to accuse me of being a fanboy of anything. Even Farscape, which I'm probably as close to fanboy as could be, I still could concede where they made some missteps.

Given the way this series is, there's no way a faithful literary adaptation could have been made. We've all very clearly pointed out here where they're foreshadowing and laying the groundwork for the Big Moments, and I think the consensus is that it's going quite well. I mean, come on. 

tbh, an anime could be cool though. They did a Highlander anime, and I quite liked it. I'm assuming they were thinking of Fullmetal Alchemist for the channeling. 

 

[Humbugged]

53 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

If it pleases the mod, do continue to report here on reddit shenanigans.

I'm assuming that this reddit cabal are book readers. What would 5 hours of show actually do here for them? 

The show has done a ton of heavy lifting for only 5 episodes. There's nothing wrong with watching any tv show with a critical lens; not hate watching, but calling out inconsistencies is fair. I'm always critical watching a show. No one is going to accuse me of being a fanboy of anything. Even Farscape, which I'm probably as close to fanboy as could be, I still could concede where they made some missteps.

Given the way this series is, there's no way a faithful literary adaptation could have been made. We've all very clearly pointed out here where they're foreshadowing and laying the groundwork for the Big Moments, and I think the consensus is that it's going quite well. I mean, come on. 

tbh, an anime could be cool though. They did a Highlander anime, and I quite liked it. I'm assuming they were thinking of Fullmetal Alchemist for the channeling. 

 

Sorry about the Reddit moaning . And I am also a big fan of Farscape by the way (2 Johns what you are talking about ?)

[Kate47]

Idk, I'm a member of r/WOT and the impression I get there is pretty overwhelmingly positive, minus the first episode shockwave. The criticisms are usually pretty fair and valid, and they work hard to prevent spoilers for non book readers. But I'm also just going off my Reddit feed, so maybe it's just suggesting more positive posts than negative since I also enjoy the show and am more likely to click those posts.

[DoctorAtomic]

You're always going to get the intense fanboy faction of anything that will always be default at trashing the product. I've seen a smattering of comments that pop up in my Facebook feed, but I'd say mostly good with most agreeing that a ton needed to be cut. 

A lot of the negative comments are on the diversity of the actors. 

[Danny Franks]

There's definitely a concerted effort by the people at r/whitecloaks to ruin the show. After each episode there are a bevy of posts declaring the show to be awful, crying about changes, claiming that nothing in the show is like the books at all.

They're mostly downvoted to oblivion, because the Wheel of Time subs are pretty positive about the show, and accepting of most of the changes that have been made. And I think the mods are pretty hot at getting rid of the worst posts, including those that deliberately spoil things for people who haven't read the books.

Sometimes the posters seem like genuine book purists who wanted a page-for-page adaptation and who would be better off just ignoring the show completely. But a lot of the time, checking a poster's comment history shows a decent amount of bigotry - racism, homophobia, transphobia, and lots of petty, meanspirited insulting.

One thing it has made really easy is weeding out these people and blocking them so you can't see of the low value trash they post.

[Humbugged]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:45 PM, Kate47 said:

Idk, I'm a member of r/WOT and the impression I get there is pretty overwhelmingly positive, minus the first episode shockwave. The criticisms are usually pretty fair and valid, and they work hard to prevent spoilers for non book readers. But I'm also just going off my Reddit feed, so maybe it's just suggesting more positive posts than negative since I also enjoy the show and am more likely to click those posts.

sorry about that it was r/wheeloftime where the megathreads are they are infested threads are infested by r/whitecloaks

They show  got there Ingtar , bat shit crazy Massema,Agelmar/Amalisa but most importantly Uno and he posted  very Uno thing on Twitter

Mother’s milk in a cup,goat-kissing sons of flaming trollocs  - sorry for swearing Nyneave every third sentence

Edited December 7, 2021 by Humbugged

[DoctorAtomic]

Uno is already awesome. 

[Black Knight]

When are they going to announce who is playing Aviendha? We heard two weeks ago that she's been cast, but no details.

[Humbugged]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

When are they going to announce who is playing Aviendha? We heard two weeks ago that she's been cast, but no details.

These season 2 castings are really from Season 1 and Agelmar and Uno are in the trailers as being at Fal Dara

[DoctorAtomic]

They could be dealing it out slow since there's about a billion characters and don't want to overwhelm the audience. I don't even remember when Av first appears.