S05.E11: Journeycake

[WatchrTina]

Random Outlander-related thought of the morning:  Lizzy's expectation that she would be leaving with Brianna is less touching when you recollect that she's the reason Roger got sold into slavery and had to be rescued from the Indians.  Brianna may have forgiven Lizzy but I'm betting relations between ROGER and Lizzy are, and always have been, a wee bit tense.  You can ignore that kind of tension when you're just crossing paths with someone from time to time -- even tip your hat to them as you pass them in the yard while doing your chores -- there is room for that kind of "social distancing"  on a large estate.  But the notion of Lizzy accompanying Roger & Brianna as their servant for . . . well . . . forEVER (even if they hadn't been planning on going back to the future) would simply be a ludicrous idea.  Roger may have forgiven Lizzy but he hasn't forgotten.

Edited May 5, 2020 by WatchrTina

[SassAndSnacks]

14 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I love this show.  I really do.  But right now it is stressing me out.  Or maybe the pandemic is stressing me out and that makes me less open to these kinds of action-adventure-women-in-peril story lines.

I feel this way every week for the first several minutes of each episode.  Then, I'm able to settle in.  I find that certain plot lines stress me out more, particularly those of characters I just don't care about that much.

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I was sorely aware of just how much of a nonissue Brianna and Roger leaving seemed to be for all the tearful farewells and entire episode dedicated to it.  There was no real discussion or debate and no big compelling reason for it beyond Roger wants to go, which is legitimate given the time he's had in the 1700s, but it played out very much as a plot point being checked off.  Show Roger apparently never connected on any level with any of these people as he was all but booking it out of there and the rest of the family barely seemed to manage more than "Oh yeah you. I guess you're leaving too."  I've always had mixed feelings about book Jamie offering Claire a gemstone during the sweaty menopause window sex as it seems just a little too good to be true for a character who's lost as much as he has to be so willing to offer her an out when the rest of them go, but at the same time I realized in watching this that I was missing it here.   In framing staying or going as entirely a safety issue with a war looming, though, it felt like they missed a prime opportunity to acknowledge the earlier choice in a very similar situation Jamie and Claire made that led to both the family as it is and so many years of grief and heartbreak.

Love your analysis here.  I think Rik Rankin has done so well with the Roger he has been given, but the real (ok, the real fictional) Roger had more depth.  He meant something to the Ridge and its people, and he was instrumental in the settling of it with Protestants.  To some, he was a more important authority figure than Jamie. We missed all of that, which is fine, but it does leave Show Roger kinda one-dimensional.  I thought the books were great in showing that he really had found a home there by highlighting how lost he was when he, Bree, and the kids returned to their own time.

I woke up thinking all things Outlander this morning, as one does, and it occurred to me that I always pictured Book Roger differently...more cool, dashing.  Intelligent, no doubt, but less academic.  He wasn't as completely inept at EVERYTHING in the past, as the show has made him out to be.

I, too, missed Jamie offering Claire the gem to go back, but I assumed it was because the show runners didn't want to add that cliffhanger to the mix that Claire might leave him again.  And for that, I'm grateful because that really annoyed me in Season 3 when she was so wishy-washy and uncertain when she returned to the past.  

[tennisgurl]

Oh great, now we get to another "Claire is in danger and here have some more rape" plot, and if memory serves, this is one of the more gratuitous ones. Its just some asshole who really has nothing to do with anything, he isn't even one of the real villains who is some kind of threat, its just some creep who gets pissy at Claire's med advice. Dont we have enough going on already? Seriously, I know that the 17th century is rough, but how do so many terrible things just keep happening to this same family? If its not a kidnapping its a war or a rape or being tortured or near death experiences or about twelve billion other things that happen when they leave the house. Hell, this time, Claire didn't even leave the freaking house! I swear I keep waiting to find out a curse is involved. 

So what the hell did Roger and Bri see when they left the circle? Its not like they know the official time travel stone rules, they dont know for sure where they could end up. I love the idea that they ended up at a ren fair or something, and they think its still the past then they see someone drive up in a jeep or something. I kind of wonder if they ended up in the wrong time, like they actually went 200 years back instead of forward and they just found Jamestown. They seem to be doing some different stuff from the books, cutting some bits and adding in others, so I really dont know! Also, I feel like they could have established why Roger and Bri want to leave now anyway, beyond that, you know, the 17th century is dangerous (again, curse) and now Jemmy can go with them. In general, they could do a lot more with Roger and Bri and their lives on the Ridge with their family, and establish it as a bigger deal that they want to leave. Why do they want to leave now? How does it effect them that they are leaving everyone they know from this time behind? They have some emotional stuff, mostly because the actors bring a lot to this, but everyone is so nonchalant, it sounds like they really are just going up to Boston, and will be back in time for Christmas in a few months! 

The parts that worked best for me were the the parts with Young Ian and Bri, and the last dinner with the sandwitches at their dinner at the end. Those were really sweet, and really well played. I love Young Ian. Nice to see Diana Gabaldon penning the episode, she really writes great dialogue that works really well for the characters. And as much as I have complained, I did mostly like this episode, and this season in general has been very strong.

Edited May 5, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Clawdette]

In thinking about where Roger, Bree, and Jemmy have landed, I wondered if the writers  reached into "A Leaf on the Wind of All Hallows" and we were going to see Roger's father.  But we would have to jump an ocean to do that.  Nevermind.

[SoCalAgain]

I apologize if this has been discussed before, and I’ve read all the books but it’s been forever.  When they realized Jemmy could time travel, why did Bri assume that meant he was Roger’s son?  Bri, of all people, should know that your father doesn’t have to be a time traveler in order to be one yourself.  So I’m wondering if I’ve missed something.  I’m pretty sure there was another reason in the books that made them so sure Roger was the father, and I don’t think it was because Jemmy was a time traveler, but I can’t be sure.

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, SoCalAgain said:

I’m pretty sure there was another reason in the books that made them so sure Roger was the father, and I don’t think it was because Jemmy was a time traveler, but I can’t be sure.

There was another incident in the books. In short, after an incident involving lice, Jemmy had his head shaved. Roger shaved his in solidarity. They both had a mole/birthmark in the exact same place on their heads, which Claire diagnosed as hereditary. After that, and coupled with Jem’s seemingly super sensitivity to gemstones, they all surmised that he was biologically Roger’s son.

[WatchrTina]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:38 PM, SoCalAgain said:

 When they realized Jemmy could time travel, why did Bri assume that meant he was Roger’s son?

My interpretation was that she was reacting to Jemmy's extreme sensitivity to the gemstone. It was not just hot to him  -- like Brianna and Roger -- it actually cracked when he held it.  So I thought they made the connection that his extreme sensitivity to the stone meant that he had a double-dose of the time-travel gene and thus must be Roger's son.

I actually think that's a bit lame but I totally understand their desire to NOT have to shave both actors' heads (to see the matching birthmarks) in order to follow the books.

Edited May 11, 2020 by WatchrTina
Edited for clarity and because punctuation matters.

[Linderhill]

I have this vague memory of them discussing genetics and how some people can curl their tongues but some can't as a genetic trait.  But then I also think I remember a scene when they discussed attached and detached earlobes.  (of course I could be mistaken on that memory) Anyway, I'm too lazy to try to look it up.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Linderhill said:

I have this vague memory of them discussing genetics and how some people can curl their tongues but some can't as a genetic trait.  But then I also think I remember a scene when they discussed attached and detached earlobes.  (of course I could be mistaken on that memory) Anyway, I'm too lazy to try to look it up.

No, you’re right. I remember giggling at those scenes regarding the curling of tongues and Jamie saying “Bleagh!”

[Kim0820]

On 5/3/2020 at 9:20 PM, Glaze Crazy said:

I vote for Roger and Bree dropping into a Ren Faire or the NC Highland Games/Gathering in the present (1974ish?). Might be easier to pass off their period attire. In the book Brianna sewed up some nondescript shirts and pants for them to wear going back to the future. Or they are right next to the Blue Ridge Highway.

I didn't think of that.  Both Claire and Brianna made some efforts to have the right clothing - OK Brianna's was lame - when they went to the past.  At Culloden, Claire didn't have much time to think about how her outfit would seem in the future.  But Brianna and Roger were planning for weeks, so you'd think they'd show the clothing efforts as was done in the books.  But then again, I didn't even notice it until I read your post.  And it would be really easy to pass it off as re-enactment or festival costume, in 1974.

On 5/4/2020 at 2:05 PM, iMonrey said:

It seems to me that these people make a lot of dangerous assumptions about time traveling. This is a completely different stone circle than the one they used in Scotland. What on earth makes them so sure it will take them to their own time? What if they wind up 200 years further in the past? They'd be even worse off than they are now, there wouldn't be anyone there! Or what if they go so far into the future that they're the ones who are out of place? This seems like a crazy risk to take.

Furthermore, how on earth could Roger possible find his way back to those stones? He only stumbled upon them when he escaped from the Mohawks. How would he have even know where he was, let alone how to get back there again? It's not as if there are road signs. {STONE CIRCLE NEXT EXIT}

Very true.  Posters went on and on about Claire returning to electricity, plumbing and showers.  But Claire had wondered whether they might send her further back.  I'd stay safe in the 18th where I had a great husband.  I'd hate to run into a battle with Uhtred or something.  But the song gave Claire some courage, because the person in the song went back to their own land.  

Ye ken there was a sign pointing to Craig Na Dun, with the number of miles 5 or 6, I think.  Frank passed in his car and then turned around and went up to it.  But that was the 1940s.  

On 5/4/2020 at 2:41 PM, aemom said:

Once they realized that was their ticket home, they probably wrote down some very detailed directions.

As for getting to the right time - they haven't really focused on that too much on the show, but the idea is that you are supposed to think about the time that you want to be in when you go through the stones.  Not sure how that would work for Jemmy, but I guess we have to hand wave that away.

That's how Claire wound up in that time.  She was thinking about Frank's ancestors at that time when she first touched the stones.

Jemmy being very young and not familiar with the 1970s - it would make sense that he can't imagine the 1970s.  An argument for them not going anywhere.  Jemmy doesn't know any other time.

On 5/5/2020 at 9:22 AM, nodorothyparker said:

There was some nice character work in this one, but otherwise I was sorely aware of just how much of a nonissue Brianna and Roger leaving seemed to be for all the tearful farewells and entire episode dedicated to it.  There was no real discussion or debate and no big compelling reason for it beyond Roger wants to go, which is legitimate given the time he's had in the 1700s, but it played out very much as a plot point being checked off.  Show Roger apparently never connected on any level with any of these people as he was all but booking it out of there and the rest of the family barely seemed to manage more than "Oh yeah you. I guess you're leaving too."  I've always had mixed feelings about book Jamie offering Claire a gemstone during the sweaty menopause window sex as it seems just a little too good to be true for a character who's lost as much as he has to be so willing to offer her an out when the rest of them go, but at the same time I realized in watching this that I was missing it here.   In framing staying or going as entirely a safety issue with a war looming, though, it felt like they missed a prime opportunity to acknowledge the earlier choice in a very similar situation Jamie and Claire made that led to both the family as it is and so many years of grief and heartbreak.

 

Even the show could use more discussion about time traveling.  They seem to fear the claim of boredom from some of the viewers who have to have constant action.  But I would find the discussions interesting.  Just makes the characters look to dumb to even think about it.  

I can do without Jamie offering her to go back.  I would not like her at all for considering it, as she's already done that anyway and made that decision.  Nothing is different now except for missing her grandchild too, but earlier she was willing to never know anything about her grandchildren and never see Brianna again.  

The war looming will result in American Independence and Claire knows that and that it would be possible to move to somewhere that did not get a lot of fighting and involvement in it if she's afraid.  For that matter, how much of the war was fought in Western NC?  Yet in modern times, the USA and USSR both have nuclear weapons and at that time, there was a real fear of a planet destroying war.  In school, we had "civil defense drills" where we covered our heads, which would have done nothing to save us in a nuclear bombing.  

[toolazy]

21 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

 

Jemmy being very young and not familiar with the 1970s - it would make sense that he can't imagine the 1970s.  An argument for them not going anywhere.  Jemmy doesn't know any other time.

 

 

The gemstones are what they use to steer in the absence of an anchoring person in the time they want to get to. I'm not sure why you're assuming it's Jemmy's fault that they didn't go.  I mean, it might be, but there was no indication of that in the show. 

The show is smart to not get in the weeds over the rules of time-traveling.  It doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it so trying to make sense out of it is a losing proposition. 

[Kim0820]

1 hour ago, toolazy said:

 

The gemstones are what they use to steer in the absence of an anchoring person in the time they want to get to. I'm not sure why you're assuming it's Jemmy's fault that they didn't go.  I mean, it might be, but there was no indication of that in the show. 

The show is smart to not get in the weeds over the rules of time-traveling.  It doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it so trying to make sense out of it is a losing proposition. 

I don't think I said it was "Jemmy's fault" as if he were guilty of something.  Only some fun speculating about what could have happened.  There's been a lot of discussion about gems but also discussion about having some time period in mind, which a small child can't envision or even understand.  So maybe they'd have to wait for him to be old enough to imagine another time, maybe at 6-7 you can do that as you start learning history then.  And his parents could tell him about their time at that age, so he can imagine it.  

I didn't say the show was not smart, but the book/show are based on the concept, and so naturally people will speculate about the imaginary world created.  I think it was a brilliant idea of the author, and she has made the most of it.  She would not have expected people to not wonder about it.  Clearly we are supposed to wonder what has happened with the young MacKenzie family here. 

[WatchrTina]

I'm having a funny experience as I re-watch these season 5 episodes in the run-up to tonight's premiere of season 6.  I recollected that season 5 was quite grueling to watch but I didn't recollect the details.  So after virtually every episode I find myself thinking "Oh yeah, this is the episode that was so tough to watch because of __________.  Glad THAT's over."  But no, in the very next episode some other horrific action happens, generally involving violence against women.  I love the book series.  I love the show.  But I'm going to have to gird my loins in order to wade back into the this particular fray. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by WatchrTina