caseylane July 7, 2014 Share July 7, 2014 My favorite pairing on the show is the Stilinski's, hand down. If they left so would I. After that it's Scott and his mother. I'm not really a shipper though I read Sterek but don't expect it on the show. I think Jeff does romance so poorly that I would prefer he just left it out completely. 1 Link to comment
Carrie Ann July 7, 2014 Share July 7, 2014 I agree that I haven't found any of the canon romantic pairings very compelling yet, but I basically ship all the characters with almost all of the others. So maybe all the ships just die when Jeff actually writes them romantically? My one exception so far is Stalia, and I think that's down to liking those actors the best. I don't know. I go back and forth on Stydia too. Currently, I'd probably say I'd be most excited if Scott and Lydia was explored at some point. But that might be tough on the Scott/Stiles friendship, which would be unacceptable. Which leads me to the fact that while TW struggles with romance, I think it excels with friendships/familial relationships. You mentioned the Stilinskis and the McCalls, and I'd add Scisaac, Sciles, Allydia, etc. Basically any iteration of the kids with each other brings out an interesting dynamic. Link to comment
Yitzhak July 7, 2014 Share July 7, 2014 The one ship I'm really really invested in is the Scott/Stiles friendship. Not in a slashy way at all. I just think it's a breath of fresh air that the core loving relationship of the show is between two teenage boys who are so openly affectionate and mutually supportive of each other. I guess it's reinforced by Posey and Dylan's real life friendship but as long as the show continues to emphasize this friendship bond I'll keep watching through all the supernatural nonsense. Other than that, I agree with casey that the kid/parent relationships are great. I'm going to miss Chris/Alison scenes. 5 Link to comment
Atony July 8, 2014 Share July 8, 2014 (edited) Which leads me to the fact that while TW struggles with romance, I think it excels with friendships/familial relationships. You mentioned the Stilinskis and the McCalls, and I'd add Scisaac, Sciles, Allydia, etc. Basically any iteration of the kids with each other brings out an interesting dynamic. Definitely. The writers have been great at friendships and family relationships and they are times when the show shines. Teen Wolf has never been particularly good at romance. I wish they would just accept that, but I guess a show like this you have to have romance. Edited July 8, 2014 by Atony 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan July 8, 2014 Share July 8, 2014 I don't know, I actually thought the Season 1 star-crossed romance between Scott and Allison was done pretty well. I like the way Scott and Kira are cute together and slowly developing into a romance instead of being all grand passion from Day 1. And I liked the contrast of Lydia and Jackson as a power couple in it for social status before they were retconned into twu wuv in Season 2. On the flip side we have said retconning, Lydia finding Aiden's abs more pertinent than the fact she witnessed him brutally murdering one of her classmates, Stiles' out-of-nowhere-and-back-again attraction to Cora, and Derek winning at Shakespearean Tragedy Bingo with his love life. I'd say the show is batting about 500 in its handling of romance, and it's too soon for me to tell whether Stiles & Malia is a hit or miss. 2 Link to comment
bluebonnet July 8, 2014 Share July 8, 2014 I'm liking the build up with Scott and Kira. It feels more organic than the hormonal nature of Scott and Allison. With Scott and Allison, it was like they were just reacting to the first person of the opposite gender that they came across. With Allison being the first girl Scott 'pinged' after being bitten and Scott being the first boy that acknowledged her at her new school. It all ended up giving me the annoys. But Scott and Kira are so sweet and have developed respect for one another as friends so the foundation there is more believable. Link to comment
bettername2come July 8, 2014 Share July 8, 2014 I do like how Scott and Kira are slowly developing, and how Scott seemed to forget they weren't dating when he gave her the chaste kiss. They're really cute together. I also think they did some good stuff with the Scott/Allison relationship in seasons one and two, but I feel the shows real power comes from those friendships and familial relationships. Scott and Stiles' brotherly dynamic is one of the best friendships on television right now. It's also refreshing to see parents on a supernatural show who actually know what's happening and are still trying to shield their kids from whatever violence they can. I also like how even minor, comedic, or evil characters get to show how much they care for others. Lydia's mom has had only a few scenes on the show, but they have a great moment getting ready for school after Lydia was almost strangled. She was clearly proud of her daughter's strength. Kate is a crazy, murderous bitch, but she genuinely loved Allison and spent the last moment before her "death" trying make sure Allison would live. Coach is 98% comic relief, but he was visibly upset after Stiles went missing and Jackson was "dead," and went on to say he cared about his players. With one scene, they've established a good relationship with Liam and his stepfather. 3 Link to comment
Yitzhak July 8, 2014 Share July 8, 2014 I really didn't care for the whole 'Stiles and Malia are true loves because they both like color-coding!' beat they went for in the latest episode. It's just a bit of a cheap easy way to establish a common bond between them. That said, the Stiles/Malia sneak peak from next weeks episode looks amazing. I really love Stiles's bravado and how he's like "Yeah, yeah, all my werewolf friends threaten to kill me during the full moon, it's no big deal" But Malia seems far more savage and out of control than Scott ever was. I mean, this girl did kill her mum and sister in a werewolf frenzy, so like...run Stiles! I personally prefer Scott/Kira. I like that it's a lot more awkward and teenage, but also that Scott's feelings for Kira are just a cute little crush, not the all-consuming romantic obsession he had for Alison. Derek/Braeden already bores me. I'd actually prefer Derek to go back to being 'lonely grumpy creeping on teenagers!Derek' because it's better having Derek as part of Team Scott than in his own side story. Link to comment
Minneapple July 9, 2014 Share July 9, 2014 Well, I pretty much like all the "couples" on the show right now. Scott and Kira are their usual adorable selves. And I'm thinking it's the acting more than the writing, but I'm finding Stiles/Malia really adorable. I think Derek/Braeden could be really hot, or maybe I'm just amazed that they found an actress who has chemistry with Hoechlin. Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 15, 2014 Share July 15, 2014 (edited) Which leads me to the fact that while TW struggles with romance, I think it excels with friendships/familial relationships. You mentioned the Stilinskis and the McCalls, and I'd add Scisaac, Sciles, Allydia, etc. Basically any iteration of the kids with each other brings out an interesting dynamic. This. One of my favorite things about this show is that, unlike most "teen" shows, the parents and other adults aren't just there as plot devices or jokes. Scott and his mom, Stiles and his dad, Allison and her dad - those are some of the best iterations of parent-child relationships on any show. They're built on mutual affection and respect. They each have their own shadings, but in each case you know the parent loves his/her child for the unique individuals they are, and that the kids feel the same. That's where this show shines. The friendships are also well-done. Scott and Stiles' relationship, of course, is awesome. They're friends who love each other like brothers, they've got history going back to when they were little, and you know there's nothing they won't do for each other. And some of the other teen friendships have developed slowly over time - Stiles and Lydia being the main one - and have become layered and real. The romances, for the most part, are not well done at all. Scott and Allison worked for me because we saw it through Scott's eyes as a typical sixteen year old who's got the fluttery heart and raging hormones and thinks this is love. And the break-up and subsequent friendship was well done, because you could see the conflicting feelings (such as Scott dealing with the fact that Isaac and Allison were becoming a thing), but they both still cared for each other even as they were moving on. That was a pretty mature depiction of a teen post-romance. Other than that, the romances have been the weak point of the show. I think Scott/Kira are cute but kinda bland, but I like Kira better when she's more than just Scott's girlfriend. Stalia is horrible, IMO, on every level. Zero chemistry, inconsistency, consent issues, and forced to the main with no development or build-up. YMMV, of course. Stydia as a romance might be okay, but TBH I love Stiles and Lydia as friends so much at this point that I'd be disappointed if the show moved them towards a romance. Sterek has real chemistry along with an organically developed history (again, IMO - YMMV), but I don't for a minute think the show would be able to write it well given its inability to do other romances well, so I neither want nor expect them to go there. I want a romance to root for on this show, but I'm beginning to think they should just give up on writing romance altogether. (I could be persuaded to see Melissa in a relationship with someone, though. She's great, and I don't know why men aren't fighting each other for her attention.) Miscellaneous relationships, like the quasi-antagonistic ones between Peter and almost anyone, or Chris Argent and almost anyone (though he's getting along better with people now) are usually pretty well-done, but they tend to be played more for laughs and I think some of the potential has been sucked out of them. This is a show that inadvertently presents relationships with trust issues, consent issues, etc., and either doesn't realize those issues are there or doesn't care. When it overlooks those things, that's when the show fails. Edited July 15, 2014 by ElleryAnne 2 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 15, 2014 Share July 15, 2014 Even if they aren't going to be endgame (I honestly don't think JD is big on Endgames or any of them ending up with anyone from the were friends with in HS), I think Stiles and Malia really work right now. For Stiles, Malia is someone he can be open with about his time being a Nogitsune (and maybe even about the guilt he has about his mother's death) and he knows that she won't judge him or look at him any differently. Seeing how she is, I doubt she'd even comfort him either, just sit there and listen. She was the first person he opened up to during his ordeal last season, makes sense that she'd be the one he opened up to about it after. And for Malia she has the same with Stiles. Accept she won't talk about her guilt, but Stiles knows that it's there. And they get each other in a way that no one else can right now. Stiles probably feels like he's to blame for Allison's death, same has Malia feels (knows) she is to blame for her mother and sister dying. They see that guilt in each other and they don't try to explain it away or reasure the other that it isn't their fault. I don't know, they just work for me. I really want the parents to start a book club or something with Deaton. Maybe they go through all of Gerard's old books and read them together so that they can be even more in the know about what the hell is going on. Link to comment
Yitzhak July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 After three seasons of celibacy, I just think it’s time Stiles had a relationship story. And for Stiles to have a relationship the writers needed to introduce a new character because none of the established canon characters were suitable options. Stiles’s romantic feelings for Lydia have always been portrayed as unrequited love and while it’s not impossible that Lydia’s feelings could change, I think Lydia needs a break after her bad experiences with Jackson and Aiden. She needs to get her Banshee powers figured out before she gets into a serious relationship and given Stiles’s established feelings for Lydia they could never just have a casual fling. They are better off as friends for the time being, though that deep friendship may (eventually) be a good grounding for a future romantic relationship. IMO, Stiles having a romance with Derek has never been a canon possibility and it’s not a ship I’d even compare to the Stiles/Lydia ship which does have a canon basis. A Sterek romance is not something the writers ever hinted at. It’d be out of character for either Stiles or Derek to consider each other romantic prospects and very unprofessional of the writers take a ship that fandom invented and make it canon just because fans pushed for it. Just because Sterek is a popular fanon ship doesn’t mean it would ever be a good canon storyline because it simply doesn’t fit with Stiles and Derek’s canon relationship - which is clearly portrayed as the two of them being reluctant allies who annoy each other and who only interact because they both have close relationships with Scott. So they needed to bring in a new girl for Stiles. It had to be a girl, not a boy because despite Stiles’s bicurious moments on the show, I think the potential for Stiles being bisexual (which I do believe JD considered) has been ruined by overhyped expectations for Sterek. So why have they rushed the introduction of Stiles’s girlfriend and their relationship? As I’ve said on other threads, I think this was a consequence of the writers having two false starts with Erica and Cora who were both intended to fill the role of a major female werewolf on the show and be a love interest for Stiles. They attempted a slower build with both of these ships and they ended up being non-starters because both actresses left the show. So while it’s a drawback that they had to rush Stiles/Malia I think they are (retroactively) fleshing out Malia’s character and her connection with Stiles in a substantial way now. TBH, I can actually buy Stiles and Malia (as characters) rushing into a relationship, both being troubled and socially awkward in different ways. Malia needed a human to latch onto and Stiles is experienced and comfortable with werewolves. I don’t see it as a bad relationship story for Stiles and unless you want Stiles to remain single, I don’t see a better option in present canon. Chemistry is a subjective thing, but I think Stiles is better matched with Malia than he would’ve been with Erica or Cora (so maybe it was third time lucky?). Stiles and Lydia still make a great pair but I’m happy for them to remain a platonic pair for now. And Stiles & Scott are the best platonic pair on the show for me - which is probably why I feel no need for Stiles to ever have a boyfriend because any love story Stiles had with a guy would feel inferior to the epic central bromance of the show. 3 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 And Stiles & Scott are the best platonic pair on the show for me - which is probably why I feel no need for Stiles to ever have a boyfriend because any love story Stiles had with a guy would feel inferior to the epic central bromance of the show. This! I'm surprised there isn't a bigger presence of Scott/Stiles (skittles?) shippers. There is an opinion by some (a big some) that it's a race thing...since Scott isn't white. And slash ships tend to be between white males and not so much POCs or interracial...but I think that's too heavy a subject for a fandom for a light show about teenage werewolves. Link to comment
galax-arena July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 I’m not thrilled with any of Stiles’ romantic prospects. 1. Never liked him with Lydia because he morphed into a Nice Guy around her, which… blech. I hate Nice Guys, and for a while I hated Stiles. They’re better off as friends. 2. Yeah, there’s no canon basis for Sterek. Like, at all, IMO. Doesn’t mean that I don’t get why people ship it, but just because you ship something doesn’t mean that it should happen in canon. I mean, I ship Joan/Moriarty on Elementary, but I absolutely do not want to see them happen on the show itself, because there is no way that could happen without completely ruining Joan’s character. Similarly, there’s no way that Sterek could get together without making Stiles and Derek (more so Derek IMO) wildly OOC. Stuff like Sterek and Joan/Moriarty belong firmly in the realm of fanfic. If we’re going to see a slash pairing on TW, I think that Scerek or Scisaac or Stanny would make more sense, even though I don’t ship any of those (m/m ain’t my thing). Except I guess Scisaac and Stanny are no longer possible…. R I P Danny, we hardly knew ye. 3. And finally, I’m not really on board the SS Stalia due to reasons that have already been hashed out on this board, although I guess this is the least objectionable pairing for me among the three. The dubcon-ish stuff in that earlier episode, where Stiles didn’t seem exactly thrilled with Malia breaking in, bothered me, but it seems to have been a one-off thing and my guess is that Jeff didn’t realize the unfortunate implications in what he was writing (he rarely does). I don’t think he realized the unfortunate implications in Stiles’ Nice Guy attitude towards Lydia, either, but that wasn’t a one-off thing, so it’s harder for me to ignore. Too bad Cora decided to leave Beacon Hills in the dust…. Link to comment
Bruinsfan July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 I think the show missed a good opportunity with Isaac. Instead of a counter-intuitive relationship with Allison that looked to me as if it had no foundation apart from Jeff Davis knowing the actors had dated in real life (and man, how awkward would filming their make-out scenes have been given that they were broken up?), they could have expanded his hero worship of Scott into an actual, unrequited crush, which would have (1) tied his storyline in closer to the main plot, (2) highlighted Scott's leadership as he tried to let Isaac down easy while preserving their friendship and roles in the pack, and (3) given some positive LGBT representation without having to go against the established orientation of any of the main characters. (Danny unknowingly dating an adult murderer doesn't quite fit that last criterion as far as I'm concerned.) Link to comment
KatWay July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 (edited) This! I'm surprised there isn't a bigger presence of Scott/Stiles (skittles?) shippers. There is an opinion by some (a big some) that it's a race thing...since Scott isn't white. And slash ships tend to be between white males and not so much POCs or interracial... What? That's ridiculous IMO. It's probably because they have a very brotherly relationship, and because the slash-friendly audience early on latched on to the more antagonistic Derek/Stiles dynamic. The overall consensus is that Tyler Posey is pretty hot, so why would his race be an issue? And why should there be any difference between slash ships and other ships when it comes to POCs or interracial? Edited July 16, 2014 by KatWay Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 A Sterek romance is not something the writers ever hinted at. In show, no. Outside the show, hell yes, even though it has since become clear that JD didn't mean it. And that kind of queerbaiting is one reason some fans are angry at Jeff Davis now. No one expected Sterek to have a chance of becoming canon until JD started playing up those fans. (That said, I don't think JD would be able write Sterek well, just as he can't write romance in general well.) So they needed to bring in a new girl for Stiles. It had to be a girl, not a boy because despite Stiles’s bicurious moments on the show, I think the potential for Stiles being bisexual (which I do believe JD considered) has been ruined by overhyped expectations for Sterek. First, I respectfully disagree that "overhyped expectations for Sterek" that would be the reason for Stiles' needing to be matched with a girl. As a rule, it's never the fans fault if the showrunner gets carried away. A good showrunner should know how to manage his show canon and relationships without being influenced by fans. If he doesn't then that's on him, not them. Secondly, what overhyped expectations could there be if, as you say, Sterek hasn't been hinted at in the show? Thirdly, I find it offensive that Stiles would have to be with a girl and not a boy on the basis of any imagined relationship. If Stiles is possibly bi, it's reasonable enough that his first relationship would be with a girl. No blame to the fans of him being bi needs to be assigned. But the truth is simply that JD wants to be able to claim Stiles is possibly bisexual in order to score points, but he has no intention of playing it as anything but a joke. So why have they rushed the introduction of Stiles’s girlfriend and their relationship? As I’ve said on other threads, I think this was a consequence of the writers having two false starts with Erica and Cora who were both intended to fill the role of a major female werewolf on the show and be a love interest for Stiles. They attempted a slower build with both of these ships and they ended up being non-starters because both actresses left the show. The fact that they attempted a slower build the first two times doesn't excuse a rush the third time. I'm sure it's frustrating for JD that some of his actors bail on him, but that doesn't excuse him when he then keeps writing variations of the same character with less development instead of actually creating new and original characters and taking some time to build them into the canvas slowly. He's got it in his head that he wants a specific kind of character for Stiles to be hooked up with, and it's like he's going to force it into place no matter what. I still find everything about Stalia to be poorly written and inconsistent and at times borderline offensive, and I realize that that's in part because JD just wants to make a specific relationship happen for Stiles, and he didn't want to wait any longer. I just don't think that excuses it. And Stiles & Scott are the best platonic pair on the show for me - which is probably why I feel no need for Stiles to ever have a boyfriend because any love story Stiles had with a guy would feel inferior to the epic central bromance of the show. I don't personally think a same-gender romance would have to overshadow the Scott-Stiles bromance any more than a straight romance would. But I suppose some fans would have a problem with it, and JD probably doesn't want to deal with that. I'm surprised there isn't a bigger presence of Scott/Stiles (skittles?) shippers. There is an opinion by some (a big some) that it's a race thing...since Scott isn't white. They're very affectionate and brotherly, and that doesn't always translate into slash. It's not a racial thing, though I've seen that speculation, too. Too bad Cora decided to leave Beacon Hills in the dust…. Yeah, but JD didn't seem to have a plan for her other than as generic female love interest number whatever for Stiles. I mean, really, she was Derek's sister back after being thought dead for six years in the Hale fire, and we get hardly anything on that? JD may as well have posted a big neon sign saying he wasn't going to bother with the writing for her beyond making sure she fit the general description of, "she's like Derek, but a girl". He probably would have been better off just recasting Cora with Shelley Hennig, tbh. At least then he could have just continued building one character instead of constantly re-creating versions of his dream date for Stiles. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 (edited) This! I'm surprised there isn't a bigger presence of Scott/Stiles (skittles?) shippers. There is an opinion by some (a big some) that it's a race thing...since Scott isn't white. And slash ships tend to be between white males and not so much POCs or interracial...but I think that's too heavy a subject for a fandom for a light show about teenage werewolves. Well, I'm a Skittles friendshipper in the sense that I think they have the best relationship on the show (especially since Alison's death but even before it - they are the central OTP of the show). I've no desire for Scott/Stiles to be "something more" than what they are already. But then I'm a fan that only tends to ship canon pairings and don't get invested in slash ships unless there's some very deliberate subtext going on. These days there's enough canonical gay relationships on TV and I'd rather ship two male characters who are actually queer in the storyline. As for the racial thing...personally, I can't imagine skin colour getting in the way people seeing how cute Posey is! I'm more confused at why there isn't a big Derek/Scott slash following since Derek and Scott actually have an intimate canon relationship and the whole older guy initiating a younger guy in the ways of his secret werewolf world seems ideal for slashy reinterpretations. I don't really get the non-interest in Scott/Derek from m/m fans. No one expected Sterek to have a chance of becoming canon until JD started playing up those fans. What did Jeff actually say? I'm fairly new to TW fandom and I don't know the history of this. If Stiles is possibly bi, it's reasonable enough that his first relationship would be with a girl...But the truth is simply that JD wants to be able to claim Stiles is possibly bisexual in order to score points, but he has no intention of playing it as anything but a joke. Personally I don't think Stiles is bi. And from that perspective I don't feel the jokes are 'laughing at Stiles's sexuality or bisexuality in general' type jokes. To me, the joke is that Stiles is a subversion of the old 'heterosexual boy with gay panic' trope. Stiles doesn't worry about gay guys liking him, instead he gets really anxious about gay guys not finding him attractive and not wanting to hit on him. I think it's a funny reversal and the joke is not on gay/bi people - it's making fun of this curious insecure mostly-straight boy who is desperate for sexual attention. That said, I wouldn't be against Stiles sexually experimenting with a non-Derek male on the show either. I just don't think that could happen without an unwanted fandom surge of "OMG, this means Sterek is happening!!" I don't personally think a same-gender romance would have to overshadow the Scott-Stiles bromance any more than a straight romance would. Well, I guess that's my point. That I'm pretty indifferent any Stiles romance plots because I only really care about the Skittles love story. For myself, I'd be fine with Stiles remaining single for the entire show so long as he kept having buddy adventures with Scott. But it seems waste to not give Stiles a romance at some point, especially since Dylan has gotten cuter every season and it stretches credulity that someone hasn't pursued Stiles yet. So I'm fine with Stiles having a love interest just so long as I keep getting Skittles scenes. Edited July 16, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
blueray July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 (edited) I honestly don't really care who Stiles dates, as long as the character continues to be good. I'm actually okay with him dating Malia (which I was surprised about). I just wish she would get more consistent character development. For me Stiles and Scott's friendship is the show. I love watching their scenes and their friendship. Edited July 16, 2014 by blueray 2 Link to comment
galax-arena July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 What did Jeff actually say? IIRC he said that he could be “persuaded” to go with Sterek, which made the Sterek fandom kick up their efforts a notch in an effort to, well, persuade him. On the surface, it was a fairly mild statement, except I don’t think Davis had any intention of actually being persuaded to write Sterek, so he was merely stringing along the shippers. And then there was the infamous boat video, which is what really kicked the fandom into overdrive: The video was made in an attempt to get people to vote for Teen Wolf for the Teen Choice Awards. I honestly don't really care who Stiles dates, as long as the character continues to be good. Yeah, I really don't care if everyone on the show gets paired up. The romantic relationships aren't keeping me tuned in and are, in general, the show's weak point IMO. Scott and Kira are cute, but eh, I wouldn't be broken up if they stayed friends instead. 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 (edited) I know about the infamous boat video. I just didn't think fans would have taken the boat video as a serious indication that Sterek would become canon. In fact, the satirical nature of the boat video would probably convince me it wasn't going to happen in canon, because they aren't going to preview a real ship in a comedic vid. Jeff saying he could be persuaded would depend on the tone he said it in too. I get the impression that the cast and writers were initially amused by the Sterek craze and wanted to make some fun friendly acknowledgements of the ship. I think they saw it as a bit of a crack ship and maybe assumed the fans were just joking too. Edited July 16, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
galax-arena July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 maybe assumed the fans were just joking too. If Davis really thought this, and didn’t stop to think that his encouragement would cause Sterek fandom to explode, then he really is a sweet summer child who should stay away from conducting any social media interviews. …Come to think of it, maybe that’s why he stopped doing Tumbler Q&As. 2 Link to comment
Minneapple July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 Honestly I don't think race has anything to do with why people didn't ship Scott/Stiles OR Derek/Scott. I think it's because Scott was kind of a weenie in the beginning of the show. So shippers latched on to the antagonistic Stiles/Derek dynamic. By the time Jeff Davis realized that Scott was boring and a bit dim (I think he bent over backwards trying to make Scott "sweet") and went to rectify his mistake, the Sterek craze had caught on like wildfire. The Scott character has improved by leaps and bounds, and Tyler Posey grows exponentially hotter each season, but people dig in with their ships. Scott and Kira are cute, but eh, I wouldn't be broken up if they stayed friends instead. Yeah. I actually loved when Kira's mom told her that Scott wasn't her first boyfriend and wouldn't be her last. Mama McCall said something similar to Scott about Allison a couple seasons ago. It's so contrary to the STAR-CROSSED SOULMATES nonsense that the show kept shoving down our throats in season one and so much more refreshingly realistic. Meanwhile, some days I really miss the fourth wall. Can we have it back, please? 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 16, 2014 Share July 16, 2014 (edited) These days there's enough canonical gay relationships on TV Well, that one's a matter of opinion, of course. I would disagree. 'm more confused at why there isn't a big Derek/Scott slash following since Derek and Scott actually have an intimate canon relationship and the whole older guy initiating a younger guy in the ways of his secret werewolf world seems ideal for slashy reinterpretations. I don't really get the non-interest in Scott/Derek from m/m fans. Chemistry. Derek and Stiles have it - and JD himself said they were "magic" together (meaning their scenes had great chemistry - not romantic, but just that spark) even before he knew there was a Sterek fanbase. Scott and Derek don't have it. There's an old interview somewhere in which he mentions watching the various pairings (again, not specifically romantic - just any combination of two people, like Stiles and his father, etc.) interact in scenes and which ones he thought had that something that made their scenes work based on that magic, and he put Stiles/Derek at the top of the list. Personally I don't think Stiles is bi . Fair enough. But JD has alluded several times to the fact that he's intended for Stiles to be possibly bisexual since S1. Is he required to keep to that? Of course not. But for people who were hopeful for bi representation in a major character in a show, it's a letdown when he seems to be backing away from it. And from that perspective I don't feel the jokes are 'laughing at Stiles's sexuality or bisexuality in general' type jokes. To me, the joke is that Stiles is a subversion of the old 'heterosexual boy with gay panic' trope. I'm not saying he's laughing "at" bisexuality. If I gave that impression, I apologize. What I mean is that he only plays Stiles' bisexuality for laughs - as in, Stiles asking if gay guys find him attractive. Even when Caitlyn asks him if he likes guys, there's nothing but Stiles gawping at her question for a second and then goes back to plot-related stuff. What did Jeff actually say? I'm fairly new to TW fandom and I don't know the history of this. The reference that galax-arena referred to is one instance. Back when he used to do hour-long interviews with fans, he mentioned he could be persuaded to make Sterek canon if enough fans wanted it. The ship video is another thing. He used it as a way to get votes by leading some fans to think they'd be rewarded with scenes between the two characters. At various times, cast members have mentioned things, too - I know Colton Haynes once mentioned that the TW people know the Sterek fans read things into certain scenes and play into that. Again, it's not as if JD is required to mean anything when he plays with the fans, but for quite a while he did it in a way that led fans to think he meant it. Baiting the fans may be a market-savvy tradition but it doesn't make it nice. For myself, I'd be fine with Stiles remaining single for the entire show so long as he kept having buddy adventures with Scott. So would I. I like romances when they are developed organically based on chemistry between characters, but I see no reason to bring in a character just to be the designated love-interest of anyone. If no one on the canvas is a good choice for Stiles, then I'd be happy with him remaining single. If someone develops chemistry with him, then something can be pursued. Unfortunately, JD doesn't feel the same. The Scott character has improved by leaps and bounds Eh. So far this season he's been kinda regressing to me. Yeah. I actually loved when Kira's mom told her that Scott wasn't her first boyfriend and wouldn't be her last. Mama McCall said something similar to Scott about Allison a couple seasons ago. It's so contrary to the STAR-CROSSED SOULMATES nonsense that the show kept shoving down our throats in season one and so much more refreshingly realistic. Agreed. Edited July 16, 2014 by ElleryAnne 2 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) Well, that one's a matter of opinion, of course. I would disagree.. Fair enough. But JD has alluded several times to the fact that he's intended for Stiles to be possibly bisexual since S1. Is he required to keep to that? Of course not. But for people who were hopeful for bi representation in a major character in a show, it's a letdown when he seems to be backing away from it. But there are plenty of bi (and homosexual) representation on most of the biggest/highest rated tv shows. There's Nolan on Revenge -shown in serious relationships with men and women; Oberyn Martell on Game of Thrones; Bo on Lost girl; Callie Torress on Grey's Anatomy; Piper on Orange is the New Black; Allison Dilaurentis on PLL; Sarah Lance on Arrow; Dorian Grey (though I think he'd be more Pansexual than bi) and Ethan Chandler (more sexually fluid?) on Penny Dreadful; etc. And as for gay characters, Mitch and Cam on Modern Family are married with a daughter, Cyrus and his partner on Scandal, Lena and Steph on The Fosters are also married with kids; Emily Fields on Pretty Little Liars; Jack Harkness on Torchwood; Loras Tyrell and Renly Baratheon on Game of Thrones; Captain Ray on Brooklyn Nine-Nine; Nasir and Agron on Spartacus; Amy on Faking It; Cosima on Orphan Black; Max Blum on Happy Endings (Awesome representation as he was unlike any other gay male character on tv); Danny, Mason, and Ethan on Teen Wolf etc. Most of the shows that I named have consistently higher viewership than teen wolf and are critically acclaimed. I would agree that Teen Wolf is a little light on the representation, but maybe people should campaign to get the canonically gay characters more screen time instead of forcing a relationship between two characters that are only ever in the same room because of their mutual affection for the main character (Scott). Whenever I see people tack the "representation" thing on Stiles or Derek, I am forever pointing at the gay characters on the show and saying "fight for them if you want a gay/bi character to get better development/more screen time on your show!" Cause there's infinitely more representation on tv now than there has been...just not on Teen Wolf. The reference that galax-arena referred to is one instance. Back when he used to do hour-long interviews with fans, he mentioned he could be persuaded to make Sterek canon if enough fans wanted it. The ship video is another thing. He used it as a way to get votes by leading some fans to think they'd be rewarded with scenes between the two characters. At various times, cast members have mentioned things, too - I know Colton Haynes once mentioned that the TW people know the Sterek fans read things into certain scenes and play into that. Again, it's not as if JD is required to mean anything when he plays with the fans, but for quite a while he did it in a way that led fans to think he meant it. Baiting the fans may be a market-savvy tradition but it doesn't make it nice. Oh I agree with the other poster that it was more in jest. And then it was more of a "we see you and we appreciate you so here's a bone" type of thing. They did it with Fayana (Shelley Hennig and Phoebe Tonkin's characters) on The Secret Circle. This all has to do with perspective, I think. Some people saw it as tongue in cheek and others thought they were being serious maybe? Edited July 17, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys 1 Link to comment
caseylane July 17, 2014 Author Share July 17, 2014 The thing is gay couples, like heterosexual couples, need to have sizzle. Yes Danny was gay but he didn't have heat or chemistry with any of the characters, IMO. Derek and Stiles had chemistry to spare and that's why people shipped them. I also think, and this is only my opinion, that some people are looking for the long romance. The typical first meeting, antagonistic relationship causing sparks, and then the slow build to a relationship. That's what's lacking in any show I've seen. Especially done dramatically with major characters. We've yet to have a Castle/Moonlighting type gay couple. 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) But there are plenty of bi (and homosexual) representation on most of the biggest/highest rated tv shows. Again, it's a matter of opinon. Words like "enough" or "plenty" are rather subjective. I don't personally think one or two characters each in about one out of every dozen shows constitutes "plenty". I'm sure some people do. Just like some people also think there's plenty of minority representation, etc., on TV and I don't. Of course MMV. Oh I agree with the other poster that it was more in jest. And then it was more of a "we see you and we appreciate you so here's a bone" type of thing. They did it with Fayana (Shelley Hennig and Phoebe Tonkin's characters) on The Secret Circle. This all has to do with perspective, I think. Some people saw it as tongue in cheek and others thought they were being serious maybe? Some people definitely saw it as, if not serious, at least not entirely in jest. And for people for whom representation isn't a joking issue, it caused a bit of frustration and anger at a showrunner who seemed to be suggesting that he'd be different, and then wasn't. It came across as baiting. Derek and Stiles had chemistry to spare and that's why people shipped them. I also think, and this is only my opinion, that some people are looking for the long romance. The typical first meeting, antagonistic relationship causing sparks, and then the slow build to a relationship. That's what's lacking in any show I've seen. Especially done dramatically with major characters. ITA. Edited July 17, 2014 by ElleryAnne 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 some people are looking for the long romance. The typical first meeting, antagonistic relationship causing sparks, and then the slow build to a relationship. That's what's lacking in any show I've seen. Especially done dramatically with major characters. Have you ever watched 'Shameless USA'? Ian and Mickey (two teenage boys) have exactly this kind of relationship and it's very well-developed over four seasons of that show. As Gwen has said there's plenty of canonical queer characters and relationships on other (better) TV shows these days. 'Orange is the New Black' has an amazing bisexual lead character and plenty more queer supporting characters. Or there's 'Torchwood' where the lead character is bi and so are most of his team (and personally I'd rather watch queer characters who were intended to be and portrayed as queer from the beginning of the show). In the current TV context, I don't think Stiles being revealed as queer would be any huge revelation for LGBT representation. It'd be more like another example of Teen Wolf copying Buffy which famously gave one of its lead characters a major same sex romance in later seasons. Chemistry. Derek and Stiles have it - and JD himself said they were "magic" together (meaning their scenes had great chemistry - not romantic, but just that spark) even before he knew there was a Sterek fanbase. Well I'm not a big believer in chemistry when it's used in "my ship is better than your ship because of the chemistry" debates. There needs to be a substantial storyline between the characters too and chemistry is a subjective thing. Also (as you imply here) good chemistry doesn't mean good romantic potential. Do Derek and Stiles have a good comedic odd couple dynamic? Yes! I'm kinda sad they aren't used much for humor anymore because their old scenes were funny. Does their comedic spark mean they should turn them into a serious romantic pairing? For me - nooooo. I just don't see it happening. Especially from Derek's side of the equation (Stiles admittedly went through a phase where he would have put out for anyone who showed a sexual interest in him). 3 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 The thing is gay couples, like heterosexual couples, need to have sizzle. Yes Danny was gay but he didn't have heat or chemistry with any of the characters, IMO. Derek and Stiles had chemistry to spare and that's why people shipped them. I also think, and this is only my opinion, that some people are looking for the long romance. The typical first meeting, antagonistic relationship causing sparks, and then the slow build to a relationship. That's what's lacking in any show I've seen. Especially done dramatically with major characters. We've yet to have a Castle/Moonlighting type gay couple. That still doesn't take away from what I said. Push for Jeff and co to find a compitant romantic plotline for Danny. And, as Yitzhack stated below and I mentioned above, if you want a great Gay/Bisexual romance, maybe you should pick another show since TW isn't doing it for you. (We all can agree TW is not always on point in the romance department and how they set it up.) Or check out Netflix show Hemlock Grove (another supernatural show about werewolves...though it's not for the fainnt of heart) where the writer has explicity stated that the entire point of the show is the slow burn/build up love story between the two leads Peter and Roman. I've never seen Stiles/Derek as more than having that odd copple/Grumpy Old Men dynamic between them. Actually, Grumpy Old men are a good comparassin to Sterek in that they have a spark in their interactions, but it isn't romantic in the slightest. If you choose to see it that way or want it that way, that's what fandom and fanfiction.net is for. Those of us that lived in a time when the 4th wall was firmly in place and the writers didn't have to deal with hordes of teens bombarding them on twitter trying to influence their story. As seen on TVD, it can really ruin a show. (Not talking about ships here, the storyline where Damon was supposed to be the one to take the cure and turn human but the writers saw that everyone and their mother could see it going in that direction, so they decided to change it last minute. Then season 5 happened.....) Again, it's a matter of opinon. Words like "enough" or "plenty" are rather subjective. I don't personally think one or two characters each in about one out of every dozen shows constitutes "plenty". I'm sure some people do. Just like some people also think there's plenty of minority representation, etc., on TV and I don't. Of course MMV. So are words like "chemistry". Though you're right, I should've worded it differently Again I'd have to respectfully disagree. Do I think there's enough representation for everyone on tv? No. Not in the slightest. (But I think Asians and Native Americans get the short end of the representation stick everytime.) There has been a big push for LGBT characters on network television (Heck! On last night's Graceland, they had a straight male undercover officer play off the feelings of his male mark so that he could close the case. A tactic that one of the female UC officers pointed out that she's had to use numerous times ) So is there an adequate amount of representation? Hell no! We live in a society that tends to cater/be run by straight, caucasian males. I doubt there will ever be adequate representation for anyone who isn't a SWM. (Female fans don't help much with their ofter viceral hatred of female characters, or them using them as props and consolidation prizes for their fav SWM character.) But to say that their is none or that very litte? You might want to broaden your viewership. I don't mean this as an attack but a genuin suggestion. Premium cable usually never steers you wrong especially if you're looking for the M/M variety. (or those sites I won't put on here where you can watch TV shows for free) Have you ever watched 'Shameless USA'? Ian and Mickey (two teenage boys) have exactly this kind of relationship and it's very well-developed over four seasons of that show. As Gwen has said there's plenty of canonical queer characters and relationships on other (better) TV shows these days. 'Orange is the New Black' has an amazing bisexual lead character and plenty more queer supporting characters. Or there's 'Torchwood' where the lead character is bi and so are most of his team (and personally I'd rather watch queer characters who were intended to be and portrayed as queer from the beginning of the show). In the current TV context, I don't think Stiles being revealed as queer would be any huge revelation for LGBT representation. It'd be more like another example of Teen Wolf copying Buffy which famously gave one of its lead characters a major same sex romance in later seasons. Well I'm not a big believer in chemistry when it's used in "my ship is better than your ship because of the chemistry" debates. There needs to be a substantial storyline between the characters too and chemistry is a subjective thing. Also (as you imply here) good chemistry doesn't mean good romantic potential. Do Derek and Stiles have a good comedic odd couple dynamic? Yes! I'm kinda sad they aren't used much for humor anymore because their old scenes were funny. Does their comedic spark mean they should turn them into a serious romantic pairing? For me - nooooo. I just don't see it happening. Especially from Derek's side of the equation (Stiles admittedly went through a phase where he would have put out for anyone who showed a sexual interest in him). This! All of it! You say what I'm trying to say so much better than I do. Would it be out of character for Stiles to be bisexual? No. He's always been portrayed as an open character when it comes to sexuality. Derek, on the other hand, has a type. We've seen nothing of him ever questioning wether he preferes sausages to tacos...or even wants a sausage. And you might say that "we just haven't seen it" and to that I say "well...this is a tv show. They have to show us something". If they don't, it turns into a Willow thing where long time viewers of the show sort of side-eyed them on making her straight up lesbian instead of bisexual. She was in love with Oz. Had a long time crush on Xander that heated up and resulted in her cheating on her love, Oz. When you watch a tv show, you go off of the things the writer and directors show you (which is why sometimes there's contention btw what viewers saw and what the writers meant. Sterek doesn't fit this contention, because your average-non-fandom participating viewer doesn't see Sterek like online fandom would have you believe.). When they suddenly do a 180 on a character's characterization with no prior explaination (read: Elena Gilbert) it's very jarring and sometimes off-putting. It's all about perspective when it comes to shipping. Others may see Sterek as OMG EPIC ROMANCE, but all I see is "They're my siblings when we're all stuck in a car with each other for a very long time". Just like I go "Awwwww" with Stalia, and others may go "Yeck! She's an abuser!" It's all relative. Link to comment
galax-arena July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) The thing is, Jeff Davis has previously boasted about how his Teen Wolf universe is like a “gay utopia.” I don’t think the dude would be receiving nearly as much criticism if he hadn’t trumpeted his own horn so loudly in this area. Jeff likes to pat himself on the back in terms of GLBT representation, and his “proof” is a character like Danny or Caitlin. What bullshit. And I don’t even like Danny or the actor that much, for the record*. But I think people are completely justified in calling out Jeff Davis and that suggesting that they just watch a different show is entirely too facile. I don’t think Stiles and Derek have that much chemistry at all, though. The only time I saw a remote spark between the two was when we had deaged!Derek played by Ian Nelson. And IA that while Stiles seems open sexually, Derek not so much. Granted, Stiles/Derek would hardly be the first nonsensical relationship on the show – Isaac/Allison, anyone? But I didn’t like Isaac/Allison either, and don’t want to see more of that kind of (imo) bs on screen. * I liked Caitlin, though. Although ever since I realized that the actress is Robin Williams’ daughter, that’s all I can see, which made her makeout scene with Stiles very awkward, lol. Edited July 17, 2014 by galax-arena 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) Have you ever watched 'Shameless USA'? Nope. We don't get premium stations. (It's a money thing.) Besides, my taste leans more towards supernatural shows. I don't see why I would have to leave the genre if I want to find representation outside the heteronormative. Especially when Jeff Davis himself has said on more than one occasion that he wanted to create a universe for his show in which there was no homophobia - that's something that makes me want to watch the show more. And the fact that there may be one or two shows that capture a relationship between two guys doesn't change anything wrt Teen Wolf. If we were talking about a straight relationship, would the response be, "oh, watch this show iinstead. See, there's enough representation." Well I'm not a big believer in chemistry when it's used in "my ship is better than your ship because of the chemistry" debates. There needs to be a substantial storyline between the characters too and chemistry is a subjective thing. Also (as you imply here) good chemistry doesn't mean good romantic potential. Do Derek and Stiles have a good comedic odd couple dynamic? Yes! I'm kinda sad they aren't used much for humor anymore because their old scenes were funny. Does their comedic spark mean they should turn them into a serious romantic pairing? For me - nooooo. I just don't see it happening. All of which is fine. Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. Since Sterek has a large fanbase, there are apparently plenty of people who do see the right kind of chemistry, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to. For instance, I see zero chemistry between Stiles and Malia but I know there are some people who would disagree. I'm not advocating for a canon romance between Derek and Stiles here. I'm just lamenting the fact that JD has hinted at more than he has delivered regarding representation in general, and at scenes between Derek and Stiles in particular. That still doesn't take away from what I said. Push for Jeff and co to find a compitant romantic plotline for Danny. Well, if the rumors that Jeff doesn't think there's anything left to write for Danny are true, that's a moot point. And even when Danny had a love interest last season, Jeff did nothing with that storyline. And plenty of people HAVE asked for more story for Danny since S1 and are (again) disappointed in JD. Also, people aren't interchangeable just because they have certain traits in common. The "here's your token gay, be happy with that," mentality isn't a fair one. (And I'm not saying that you're being that dismissive - just that it's a prevalent attitude in society.) Besides, sometimes it's about wanting representation in a major character rather than a background one. Also, and I'm pointing this out purely on principle - there's no reason to believe Derek isn't bi, and there's every reason to believe Stiles is bi. JD has mentioned at cons that he wanted to increase bi representation. Again, I don't think JD will go there, but Sterek fans are not out of line or delusional just for thinking that two leads with great chemistry could end up together just because they're both male on this show. Those of us that lived in a time when the 4th wall was firmly in place and the writers didn't have to deal with hordes of teens bombarding them on twitter trying to influence their story. Well, I'm 30 so I'm pretty sure I lived through that time, too. But if writers don't want to deal with "hordes of teens bombarding them on twitter", then writers can stay off twitter. No one is forcing professionals to cave to teens. If they can't handle it, that's on them. Blaming the fans makes zero sense. Don't get me wrong, I don't think showrunners should just give in to what fans want regarding ships. (I don't watch TVD, but hell, it ruined the X-Files, IMO.) But if they're going to tease and bait those fans with hints of relationships they have no intention of delivering, then they ought to realize they'll end up alienating some of those fans. Female fans don't help much with their ofter viceral hatred of female characters, or them using them as props and consolidation prizes for their fav SWM character. Very true. That's one reason it drives me crazy when a female character is badly written because she only exists to serve a specific purpose in the writer's eyes. And especially when that purpose is "love interest", because it's a cheap and lazy way to tie her to the story. I agree, SWM tend to be running the show. Although since Jeff Davis is gay and out, there was some reason for the higher expectations on the part of Teen Wolf fans. But to say that their is none or that very litte? You might want to broaden your viewership. I never said that there was "none or that very little". I said I disagreed with the statement that there is enough or plenty. You're welcome to disagree, and regardless of whether I choose to broaden my viewership (fully recognizing that that's not an attack), this topic is about relationships in Teen Wolf and how they're handled. Or mishandled, as the case may be. Derek, on the other hand, has a type. So far, we've seen that Derek liked Paige. Is Kate also his type? Eh, maybe. Slightly older woman playing with a teenaged boy's hormones doesn't necessarily qualify as a type for Derek to be attracted to. Jennifer doesn't count, since even Haley Webb said she thought it was obvious that Derek was under the Darach influence. Braeden, we'll see. Not much data to limit Derek's tastes to a type yet, but MMV on that, I suppose. to that I say "well...this is a tv show. They have to show us something". But they don't, really. They only have to show what they want. And this show reveals less than most. What's happening between Malia and her father? What is the Sheriff's first name? Does Derek live off insurance payments or something else? But I didn’t like Isaac/Allison either, and don’t want to see more of that kind of (imo) bs on screen. Yeah. JD fell into another bad judgment there. When showrunners decide to put two characters together just because the actors are dating IRL, there's always such a potential for problems later, when the actors are likely to break up. I didn't mind Allison/Isaac at all, but I hated JD's stupidity in his reason for taking the story in that direction. (I keep wondering if it wasn't part of the reason we lost a character I adored, even though I know she gave different reasons for leaving.) I guess I should just be grateful he didn't do something similar with Lydia/Peter. Edited July 17, 2014 by ElleryAnne 3 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) Nope. We don't get premium stations. (It's a money thing.) Besides, my taste leans more towards supernatural shows. I don't see why I would have to leave the genre if I want to find representation outside the heteronormative. Especially when Jeff Davis himself has said on more than one occasion that he wanted to create a universe for his show in which there was no homophobia - that's something that makes me want to watch the show more. And the fact that there may be one or two shows that capture a relationship between two guys doesn't change anything wrt Teen Wolf. If we were talking about a straight relationship, would the response be, "oh, watch this show iinstead. See, there's enough representation." Oh, I understand the cable thing (it's super expensive, but I'm spoiled) that's why those free sites are my fav...I just don't always like linking them? A good number of Supernatural shows have gay love storylines. Though it's pure sugar, True Blood even has a love triangle with two men and a female with one of the males being in the middle. Then there's Lost Girl who's main character is bisexual (and has relationships beyond sex with males and females). Then there's Torchwood with Jack Harkness. I promise I'm not trying to dismiss you and your want to have a prominant LGBT on Teen Wolf (Hell, I'd like to have a black character that doesn't get killed off/we actually learn about their home life.), I'm just saying there are a good number of decent shows with LGBT leads...I think there's even a link for shows that have them...if I can find it, I'll link you. All of which is fine. Chemistry is in the eye of the beholder. Since Sterek has a large fanbase, there are apparently plenty of people who do see the right kind of chemistry, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to. I think Sterek is only big in fandom though, and fandom to viewership is like real viewership to the Nielson rating system. There's a wide margin for error Also, and I'm pointing this out purely on principle - there's no reason to believe Derek isn't bi, and there's every reason to believe Stiles is bi. JD has mentioned at cons that he wanted to increase bi representation. Again, I don't think JD will go there, but Sterek fans are not out of line or delusional just for thinking that two leads with great chemistry could end up together just because they're both male on this show. But there's no reason to believe that Derek is either. And while Jeff is out and proud, he still has to answer to network excecs....Maybe he really did have plans to make Stiles bisexual and they nixed it. Maybe he really was considering Sterek but found out the actors weren't into actually playing it out on screen? There are a lot of young, male actors who won't play gay because they're told it could pigeon hole their careers. It sucks...but it's one of the reasons Matt Bomer wasn't Clark Kent in the newest Superman movie as he is an out and proud actor. I would never call anyone delusional. I was a Harry/Hermione shipper in the HP fandom....that's all I'll say about that, lol! But they don't, really. They only have to show what they want. And this show reveals less than most. What's happening between Malia and her father? What is the Sheriff's first name? Does Derek live off insurance payments or something else? Oh I know. I'm more interested in Malia's relationship with Mr. Tate than I am with her an Peter. (I'm more interested in what I've heard about Malia and Derek's relationship than I am with her and Peter's. Derek does seem kind of thirsty for family. Might be why he latched onto Scott and it's hinted that was a contributing factor for why he turned Boyd, Erica, and Isaac. Pack aside.) We still don't know Stile's first name. And I always assumed since season 1 that Derek had a trustfund/insurance money. He had a nice car and wore leather jackets. That's like tv prototype for bad, rich boy. This season they all but confirmed it with the bearer bonds. Yeah. JD fell into another bad judgment there. When showrunners decide to put two characters together just because the actors are dating IRL, there's always such a potential for problems later, when the actors are likely to break up. I didn't mind Allison/Isaac at all, but I hated JD's stupidity in his reason for taking the story in that direction. (I keep wondering if it wasn't part of the reason we lost a character I adored, even though I know she gave different reasons for leaving.) I guess I should just be grateful he didn't do something similar with Lydia/Peter. Wait. Ian and Holland dated for real? I thought that was just a rumor (like her dating Colton, who always came off to me as someone in a glass closet wrapped in a rainbow flag.) Wow....season 2 kinda makes more sense now. PS. I miss Allison too. Edited July 17, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 I think there's even a link for shows that have them...if I can find it, I'll link you. No need. I know how to find them, it just doesn't change my definition of plenty. (Please don't take that as bratty - I just don't want you to worry about tracking down links.) I'd like to have a black character that doesn't get killed off/we actually learn about their home life. Which makes me think of Boyd (and Erica) and then the chorus of fuck this show sometimes starts playing in my head again. No, I'm not over the loss of those two. Maybe the new guy will get better treatment and some real storylines. (Or maybe I'm just setting myself up to be disappointed again.) But there's no reason to believe that Derek is either. True. We don't actually know, and I don't expect that they intend for Derek to be anything but straight. My point is just that it could go either way. (The idea, not Derek. Well, Derek, too, I guess.) But when JD answers questions about what Derek was doing in NY by saying he went to a gay bar, joking or not, it makes some fans willing to consider that Derek might not be entirely straight. Again, it's just JD baiting fans and not meaning it, which sucks. Derek does seem kind of thirsty for family. Might be why he latched onto Scott and it's hinted that was a contributing factor for why he turned Boyd, Erica, and Isaac. Pack aside. ITA. I think they've always portrayed Derek as someone who wants/needs family. Part of that seems to be the pack-thing in the show's mythos - the idea that werewolves are stronger in packs. But Derek seems to have recovered from losing Isaac and Cora in various ways. I wish they'd explore a little more about him and Peter, though. There's a world of layers that should exist in that relationship, given their history. But the show only treats Peter as a snarky plot-mover most of the time. I think the thing that frustrates me the most with this show is that so many of the relationships between characters are almost accidentally fascinating and original, and the writers do nothing with it. I could probably accept it if the stories were well-plotted and tightly constructed, but it doesn't look like that's taking up much of the writers' time, either. This show is becoming like Smallville to me - cute enough most of the time, but with so damn much unrealized potential. Wait. Ian and Holland dated for real? I thought so? Can't swear to it, I guess. But not her and Colton - I always took that as a publicity thing. Link to comment
Yitzhak July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) I don't expect that they intend for Derek to be anything but straight. My point is just that it could go either way. (The idea, not Derek. Well, Derek, too, I guess.) From the Derek side of things, it's not so much that it's unthinkable that he could be bi. It's more the idea of Derek having romantic feelings towards Stiles that I could never buy. Firstly with the age gap - at the start of the show I think Derek really viewed Scott and Stiles as children in over their heads. And given Derek's own very creepy experience with Kate as a teenager I don't think Derek would want to be the creepy adult dating a high school kid. But even if it wasn't for the age difference, the way Derek describes Stiles in terms like "hyperactive spaz" doesn't suggest that he's crushing on Stiles deep down. Stiles never describes Derek in flattering terms either. Derek has developed a great respect for Scott over the seasons, but I still feel like he sees Stiles as Scott's annoying defenseless human friend who always tags along so Derek just has to tolerate him. And Stiles usually tolerates Derek right back. But if they're going to tease and bait those fans with hints of relationships they have no intention of delivering, then they ought to realize they'll end up alienating some of those fans. Sometimes I feel like showrunners can't win with shippers though. I've never heard any interview with Jeff talking about Sterek but I did hear one where a Stiles/Lydia shipper asked Jeff if there was still hope for their ship now Malia was on the scene. What is a fair (as in 'non baiting') answer to that question? To give a firm 'yes' or 'no' answer is spoiler territory. And Jeff himself may not have even decided. But if Jeff gives a "maaaaybe" type of answer (which he did) then he's likely to be accused of giving shippers false hope if the writers ultimately decide Stiles and Lydia should just remain friends. Maybe Jeff seems insensitive to shippers hopes and dreams but speaking as a fan who doesn't ship much myself, it always surprises me that rooting for ships can be the be all and end all for some fans investment in a show. A good number of Supernatural shows have gay love storylines. It's more scifi than supernatural but 'Orphan Black' is particularly awesome for diverse LGBT representation. 'In the Flesh' is another fantasy genre show with a gay lead character. And this is not to say that Teen Wolf shouldn't have more prominent LGBT representation, just that it is not a matter of "Teen Wolf needs to have a queer character because it is so rare that we ever see queer characters and relationships on TV!!" It isn't that rare these days. What I do find rather rare is finding a teen show where the main relationship is a very openly affectionate friendship between two teenage boys. Scott and Stiles are a breath of fresh air for me where it comes to the portrayal of boy friendships and even if they are both straight teenage boys then I say they are great examples of young boys being comfortable in their sexuality. Stiles not being bi isn't a failure to me. He can be a straight ally who parties with drag queens. It's progress from the original 1985 movie Scott & Stiles who were kind of homophobic (in the movie when Scott is about to tell Stiles he's a werewolf, Stiles worries that Scott is going to tell him he's gay). It's fair to say that JD hasn't created a "gay utopia" in Teen Wolf. It's a very gay friendly show largely about heterosexuals. And, you know...werewolves. Edited July 17, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 17, 2014 Share July 17, 2014 (edited) Derek has developed a great respect for Scott over the seasons, but I still feel like he sees Stiles as Scott's annoying defenseless human friend who always tags along so he just has to tolerate him. And Stiles usually tolerates Derek right back. Some people see potential in Sterek. Some don't. Everyone's got their right to see the show the way they want. My issue tends to be more with things like blaming or shaming shippers. Not saying that happens here, of course. Just that sometimes, elsewhere on the great vast interwebs, it happens. What is a fair (as in 'non baiting') answer to that question? To give a firm 'yes' or 'no' answer is spoiler territory. And Jeff himself may not have even decided. But if Jeff gives a "maaaaybe" type of answer (which he did) then he's likely to be accused of giving shippers false hope if they ultimately decide Stiles and Lydia should just remain friends. Honestly, at this stage, any showrunner with half a brain should have canned responses for certain questions, even if it's a simple, "No comment." If they and their actors are going to appear in cons or host online interviews with fans or press, then be prepared for the obvious questions like whether the most popular ships in the fandom have a chance. Those questions can't possibly surprise them. I don't think it's baiting to say "maybe" to a question about whether a ship might happen. But things like the ship video or the bar comment or the "I could be persuaded if enough fans want it" comment? Oh, yes. Those definitely wander into baiting territory. And it takes on a different shade when it's a slash ship instead of a straight one, because those two things are not treated equally in the world yet. just that it is not a matter of "Teen Wolf needs to have a queer character because it is so rare that we ever see queer characters and relationships on TV!!" But again, it's not as simple as just whether TW needs a gay character. (And I, for one, don't want a token because it "needs" one. Give me characters with potential who'll be part of real storylines, not because you want to check the necessary boxes for minorities A, B, and C and then pat yourselves on the back and brag about how much progress it entails. Representation and tokenism aren't the same thing.) It's a combination of wanting good representation, along with the showrunner's and actors' own comments, along with particular characters that a substantial fanbase sees a lot of great chemistry between. If JD had simply, from the start, said that Sterek wasn't on the table, fans of Sterek would not have invested in the idea that it could happen. And they'd just look at TW for what it is, and look elsewhere for representation. But there was a perfect storm of circumstances at play, with JD essentially toying with what is arguably the largest ship fandom within the greater TW fandom. What I do find rather rare is finding a teen show where the main relationship is a very openly affectionate friendship between two teenage boys. Agreed. For me, what I love isn't that they're affectionate so much as that you know they absolutely love, trust, and are loyal to each other. One thing I feel pretty sure of is that this show will not create false drama by having one of them betray the other in any big way. And that solid a friendship is the one of the best things about TW. Stiles not being bi isn't a failure to me. No, it probably isn't to most of the fandom. But there is a portion of fandom that actually put some faith in what JD said he was doing with the character, and they're really, understandably, disappointed now. Edited July 17, 2014 by ElleryAnne Link to comment
Yitzhak July 18, 2014 Share July 18, 2014 (edited) Some people see potential in Sterek. Some don't. Everyone's got their right to see the show the way they want. My issue tends to be more with things like blaming or shaming shippers. I'd never tell anyone they are wrong to ship something. But when you have shippers arguing 'this ship could/should happen!' in canon then it's open to debate if other fans think the ship in question couldn't/shouldn't happen in canon. And I felt I was basing my 'reasons why not...' on examples from canon, not my own headcanon. It's a combination of wanting good representation, along with the showrunner's and actors' own comments, along with particular characters that a substantial fanbase sees a lot of great chemistry between. I guess that's why I'm trying to put the representation thing to one side. Because it doesn't feel like it's really about LGBT representation on TW or on television in general if that representation can only come in the form of Stiles being bi or canonical Sterek. Like, if two completely different male characters had a romance on TW instead that wouldn't count (like Danny/Ethan don't count). The representation argument suggests that Sterek fans are the sole supporters of LGBT visibility in fandom and that anyone who is against Sterek is enforcing heteronormity. Which is not the case. I'd be glad to see all kinds of gay werewolves on this show. I just don't think a Stiles/Derek romance plot is a good idea. If other fans do (and I know there are a lot of Sterek fans) that's fine, but they don't speak for the entire TW fanbase. One thing I feel pretty sure of is that this show will not create false drama by having one of them betray the other in any big way. I agree. Even in the moments when Scott and Stiles do get angry at each other, the loyalty still remains. I think the episode I really invested in Skittles was 'Lunatic' when Scott was being a bastard to Stiles due to the full moon and Stiles is feeling frustrated and resentful towards Scott taunting him, but Stiles still didn't leave Scott to wolf out alone. And they kinda had the opportunity to turn Scott & Stiles into mortal enemies with the possession storyline, but I like that Scott refused to even contemplate killing Stiles to stop the Nogitsune, nor did he blame Stiles for anything the Nogitsune did. Edited July 18, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 18, 2014 Share July 18, 2014 I'd never tell anyone they are wrong to ship something. But when you have shippers arguing 'this ship could/should happen!' in canon then it's open to debate if other fans think the ship in question couldn't/shouldn't happen in canon. And I felt I was basing my 'reasons why not...' on examples from canon, not my own headcanon. I wasn't saying you were. If I gave you that impression, I apologize. I'm only speaking in general. It's not uncommon for fans of slash ships to be seen in a more negative light than fans of straight ships. As I said, everyone's got the right to see the show the way they like. And some behavior of characters can be open to interpretation. (Not sure why the reference to headcanon unless it's JD's bar reference?) like Danny/Ethan don't count It's not that Danny/Ethan don't count. It's that Danny/Ethan didn't get any real story, relationship development, or character development. They were secondary characters. You can consider them representation, but they were always in the background with only peripheral ties to the plot. I mean, Ethan was basically a murderer, yet there was no delving into whether Danny knew about that, or how he'd react. There was no falling-in-love story for them, only a couple of flirt/kisses and a sex scene. Hell, we find out Danny knew about werewolves and we never even found out HOW or for how long he knew! One freakin' sentence is all they even give to that development, and it comes at the end of the season, probably never to be expanded upon. (That's up there now with the loss of Boyd and Erica on my list of things I hate JD for, dammit, I liked Danny. I would have loved to see his character get a real role with the Scooby gang this season.) So yes, Danny and Ethan are characters who are gay, and in that case they count towards the show ticking boxes and saying, wow, look at us! Aren't we great for including gay characters! But no, it's not the same. And yes, there were people asking JD for more of Danny's story, even though a lot of people weren't crazy about Ethan (understandably, because when you like a character, you don't really want him to end up paired off with a murderer with no explanation for why he's acceptable now other than that JD is a gay twin with a straight brother and though it would be fun if he had the Carver twins play the same.) The representation argument suggests that Sterek fans are the sole supporters of LGBT visibility in fandom and that anyone who is against Sterek is enforcing heteronormity. Not at all. I know fans who don't care a whit about Sterek but support greater representation in general. And it's worth remembering that not all fans ship the same couples for the same reasons. Some Sterek fans probably don't care about representation. I can't speak for them but I'm sure they exist. There are multiple issues involved, and people may be passionate about one, some, all, or none of them at all. The difference between Danny/Ethan and a possible Sterek romance wrt representation is that Sterek would have had a slow build-up of a relationship developing, and they're major characters in the overall story. ( And no, I'm not saying Sterek would happen, and no, I'm not saying everyone sees the chemistry.) Danny and Ethan suffered from the same bad writing that this show has done once or twice before, where there's no time or development of a relationship, yet we're expected to feel invested in a romance between two characters because the show tells us they're together. Danny/Ethan, Lydia/Aiden, Stiles/Malia, etc... It's hard to care (for me, anyway - I'm sure there are some who do) when it's basically just any two characters tossed together with no chemistry, no backstory, nothing. Just a vague sense of the showrunner needing something to do with the characters. Sterek, like Stydia and some other ships, are popular because we've had time to know and care about the characters individually, to watch them get to know each other over time, to bond in various ways. We've been able to watch the chemistry and potential grow. Good writing sometimes needs to let a romance simmer. It's not a game of drawing two names out of a hat and throwing them together because the writers need a few plot points or have to hit the 42 minute mark. And it's never going to be something that sparks unanimous reactions from every viewer, because we all bring different things to what we watch so we interpret things differently. That's why some of us can be appalled at a relationship fraught with consent issues while other people don't see it, and why some people will think two characters are hot together while others will think their chemistry is only comic relief or friendship or animosity. I think the episode I really invested in Skittles was 'Lunatic' Oh, gosh. Is that the one that has the scene of Stiles sitting in the hallway outside Scott's bedroom while he's chained up? Stiles breaks my heart in that scene without saying a word. Here's this guy he's loved like a brother since they were five years old, and it's just painful how much he's totally lost and out of his depth in trying to help him but is determined to do something, even if it's just sitting there while hell rages in the next room. It's in his body language and the camera angles and everything. I love that scene. (Wow, compare the absolute heart in that moment with the idiocy of the latest thing with Liam. This show is capable of great little moments when it really tries - that's why it frustrates me so much when it goes for the cheap stuff.) 2 Link to comment
Minneapple July 18, 2014 Share July 18, 2014 My thing with Sterek is that the two characters hardly ever interact. It's not like other popular slash ships, Dean/Castiel or Harvey/Mike, where there is a ton of interaction -- not to mention a ton of homoerotic subtext and queerbaiting involved. Even after Davis found out about the shipping and pretended like it could become canon, he didn't stop trying to hook Stiles up with a different female every season. (I will say that I read a few Sterek fics and they were more well-written than the show, lol.) Unpopularly, I don't care about Danny. He was a good character in season one, who played lacrosse, was good with tech things, popular. Who just happened to be gay, and it was no big deal. I think Davis got caught up in the praise for writing him as just a regular gay guy, so he turned him into the Gay Guy, and that became the only important part of Danny's personality. Danny/Ethan felt like an exercise in We Need To Show You A Gay Relationship Because We Are LGBT Friendly, not a relationship that anybody really cared about. And as ElleryAnne pointed out, Danny became a smidge interesting when we found out that he knew about werewolves...but nothing's come of it since then. So, eh. 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan July 19, 2014 Share July 19, 2014 But not her and Colton - I always took that as a publicity thing. Maybe if you mean in the sense of interviewers on PR tours making uninformed assumptions. In behind the scenes stuff I've seen Holland and Colton laughed whenever the suggestion that they were a couple in real life was made. 1 Link to comment
caseylane July 19, 2014 Author Share July 19, 2014 Season 1 and 2 had a fair amount of Derek/Stiles interaction and scenes with just the 2 of them. After that though it was like JD hardly put them on screen together unless they were in a group shot. That was the first clue he was trying to slow down the runaway train. Link to comment
Yitzhak July 19, 2014 Share July 19, 2014 (edited) It's hard to care (for me, anyway - I'm sure there are some who do) when it's basically just any two characters tossed together with no chemistry, no backstory, nothing. I’m not a fan of ships that are just thrown together with little introduction either. As you say Danny/Ethan aren’t alone in this camp as many of the show's het ships have been rushed into fruition too. It feels like baseless ships are often readily accepted in this show by a lot of viewers though. For example, the fact that there are already high fan expectations of a Lydia/Parish hook up. It seems like new ships can emerge out of nothing more than two attractive unattached characters sharing a few scenes together. It is a lazy ‘pair the spares’ style of writing. For me, a good potential romance is one with (not simply good chemistry) but a good narrative potential. Which leads me to ask... Sterek, like Stydia and some other ships, are popular because we've had time to know and care about the characters individually, to watch them get to know each other over time, to bond in various ways. We've been able to watch the chemistry and potential grow. What is the romantic potential for Sterek in the canon storyline though? When have they really bonded? I feel like the canonical Derek & Stiles scenes do more to negate romantic potential than affirm it. Take the pool scene for example. Derek & Stiles are trapped in a life threatening situation which could bring them much closer together, but...it actually doesn’t. Derek complains that Stiles is only saving him so he can fight the Kanima, Stiles would rather call Scott for help and in the next episode Stiles is telling Allison to shoot Derek in the head. I'm not seeing evidence in canon that Derek or Stiles especially care about each other outside of their general sense of pack loyalty as fellow members of Team Scott. Once again, Derek & Scott are a far better example of two characters with initial animosity who have slowly bonded with each other over time and do regularly show that they care about each other. If Sterek fans want a slow-build romance in canon then it would have to fit with the Stiles & Derek relationship as it has been written on the show thus far. I don’t think it does. Such a romance would require a major retcon on Stiles & Derek’s feelings towards each other and it would be jarring for many casual viewers. It can't just be said that supposed chemistry between the actors would make the ship work. How would the story work? There is nothing between Melissa and the Sheriff, they are purely platonic and the Sheriff is still grieving for his wife. It'd be way OOC and off base. Bringing this over from the Muted episode thread. I am a big fan of Melissa and the Sheriff's relationship as single parents with only children who have become like brothers. I think in many ways it's more interesting that it has so far remained a platonic bond as they have often acted as a paternal figures to each others sons - so they are already like unmarried co-parents. Stiles certainly sees Melissa as a surrogate mother and Scott is far more loyal to Stilinski than his own father. It is interesting that a potential romance has never been brought up in the show though. If Agent McCall is sticking around to win Melissa back, I wonder if he'll see the Sheriff as any kind of a love rival? Edited July 19, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
FurryFury July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 he Sheriff is still grieving for his wife I like the Sheriff and think it's high time for him to move on. Seriously, it's unhealthy. I do agree there's nothing in canon to suggest a romance with Melissa, but they're both really likable characters and it's very understandable the fans want them to be happy. Plus, such a hook-up is guaranteed to have comedic potential, and maybe even narrative. Link to comment
ElleryAnne July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 What is the romantic potential for Sterek in the canon storyline though? When have they really bonded? Well, one possible dynamic is similar to what you get in some rom-coms, where that initial hate/antagonism develops into something more, based on chemistry and working together, etc. They've gone from outright hating each other (or more accurately, Stiles hating Derek and Derek just not thinking Stiles was much more than a spaz) to starting to become allies. There's also the slowly-developing trust and concern for each other that's developed over time. Again, it's something of a slow-build, in which they're only partway there. And naturally, not everyone would see it that way. But compared to some of the writing, in which characters discover twu wuv with nothing more than a quick glance and some hormones, Sterek would have the potential to be an actual slowly-unfolding relationship. (But don't worry, it won't happen.) For example, the fact that there are already high fan expectations of a Lydia/Parish hook up. Are there? I'll admit I'd probably be onboard with that pairing, too, though I wouldn't want it to happen too quickly. But there's not much to base it on yet. I liked their chemistry in the one scene they had together, and I like both characters separately. But I'd want to see more of Parrish before really deciding. I adore Lydia, and I'd like to see her end up with a good guy for a change. I know Jackson (who I actually liked, but know he's an absolute dick) would have gotten a redemption arc, and maybe Aiden would have, too, but neither of those things happened. I'd like to make sure Parrish is going to be A) not a villain and B) not puppy chow, before rooting for him and Lydia. But yeah, I do see some potential there for maybe an S5-S6 romance if the show wanted to go there. Link to comment
Jack Kerouac July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 Well, that one's a matter of opinion, of course. I would disagree. Considering the latest CDC survey says that a total of 2.3% of U.S. adults said they were gay, lesbian or bisexual, there really should be only 2.3% of all pairings that are one of those. How they would do the .3% part I have no idea. Would bisexuals count as .5% or 2%? I keeed - I keeed, because I love! Link to comment
Insomnia July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 Now I've got this whole premise if rotating bisexuals in my head; for a third of the week they like males, one third they like females, and one third they like both. Mostly posting this because I have the term rotating bisexuals stuck in my head. And I needed to share. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 (edited) They'd never go there, but I'd be more than okay if they did Edited July 23, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys 1 Link to comment
Minneapple July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 So adorable. And hot! Shelley Hennig really has chemistry with everyone in the cast. And one of the reasons I actually like Stalia is because acting-wise, Hennig is a good foil for Dylan O'Brien. There's also the slowly-developing trust and concern for each other that's developed over time. I actually disagree with this. I don't see them really trusting or having concern for each other outside of their connection through Scott. 3 Link to comment
Atony July 23, 2014 Share July 23, 2014 (edited) Hehe, the fandom would flip if they went there. It would be Jeff Davis allowing the girl characters to be sexually fluid while turning his nose at the implication the male characters could possibly be. Not that they will of course, but the backlash from the concept made me chuckle. Edited July 23, 2014 by Atony 1 Link to comment
caseylane July 23, 2014 Author Share July 23, 2014 That's the thing. Lesbianism is "cool" and almost every college girl everywhere has played the bi card in clubs to attract attention. You just don't get that acceptance with 2 men. Link to comment
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