S01.E06: This Extraordinary Being

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, blixie said:

but it's possible he only came to this AFTER the White Night, after Angela someone he really cared about almost dying.  

The flashback to White Night seemed to indicate that he didn’t know her before the massacre. 

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

 Having watched a ton of Ryan Murphy produced television, that sex scene was fairly tame by his standards. It was no crysturbating or drill-do.

I'll have what she's having...

Edited November 26, 2019 by Penman61

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In any event, I don't think it is realistic to reconcile that statement and the underlying philosophy with the notion of a HJ who was champing at the bit to get the Minutemen to fight the KKK at home.

They actually address this scene specifically in the Peteypedia supplemental material. In Nelson Gardner's will (see p. 5), he directs his estate to convey his apologies to Will: "Tell him that I was wrong when I said 'we should avoid political situations' and that he was right when he mocked us with those same words every chance he could; tell him I now see how everything we did back then was a political act, even the hideous hustle of what he called our 'razzle dazzle' and the crass, degrading, and racist imagery it put into the world."

It's a little kludgy, but I think you can make sense of most of HJ's canonical comments in light of the Will Reeves revelation as the bitter resentment of someone who's always had to swallow his own grievance for the sake of the team, so he'll be damned if any of his colleagues get to appeal to him for justice or sympathy. For instance, when he tells Sally to "for God's sake, cover yourself" after the Comedian almost rapes her, he's echoing the unfair demand Gardner always made of him.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In the graphic novel, Sally Jupiter recalls events around a Minuteman photo session. Sally asks HJ if he thinks her hair will come out OK. HJ responds that he doesn't care for all the razzle-dazzle and he'd rather be out on the streets doing his job. The Comedian chimes in and says something to the effect of "Streets, nothing! Why don't Uncle Sammy send us to Europe, where the action is?" HJ's response is to the effect of, "Firstly, we aren't at war. Secondly, we should avoid political entanglements." Which, to me, sounds like what a Nazi sympathizer might say. 

In any event, I don't think it is realistic to reconcile that statement and the underlying philosophy with the notion of a HJ who was champing at the bit to get the Minutemen to fight the KKK at home.

I don't know that I find that statement really at odds with Will's experiences. He was a small child whose neighborhood is papered with propaganda from WW1 Germany about inequality within American troops. His neighborhood is targeted by white terrorists for the sin  of being prosperous people of color. He's an orphan and refugee in his own country. He becomes a police officer and is targeted by his fellow officers. The only time he's made a lasting difference is as Hooded Justice and even that's been undermined by Captain Metropolis. Will/Hooded Justice is a profoundly cynical, jaded, person who has learned to play the game and hide in plain sight. Will might mention political entanglements, but maybe he's loathe to have Black troops go to Europe to fight for the freedoms of others only to return to the states to be treated as less than. Eighty-five percent of the lynchings of Blacks in the US happened after the Civil War. 

[Macbeth]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:05 PM, DakotaLavender said:

This was one of the most amazing and excellent episodes I have ever seen on television in a series. The concepts, the execution and the music made it extraordinary. It deserves an Emmy. 

I agree.  I was absolutely floored.

[AnimeMania]

7 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Will might mention political entanglements, but maybe he's loathe to have Black troops go to Europe to fight for the freedoms of others only to return to the states to be treated as less than.

From Will's perspective little has changed in America, everything in that German propaganda flyer is just as true (present day) as it was during World War One, if not worse. That might be why Will didn't want to go to another country and fight for someone else's freedoms when he believed he should stay at home and fight for his own. This might have been construed as sympathizing with the Nazis.

[Macbeth]

I understood that Watchmen was a comic book.  

But when I first saw the promos for this series - I didn't think it was based on the comics.  Granted I knew nothing about the comics.

I really thought, and still do, that this show was dealing with what is happening now in America in terms of race.

If Lindelof created this show so that he could create this episode and the pilot episode that dealt with the massacre of Black Wall Street - I am fine with it.  Both are masterpieces.

And I completely forgive him for Lost.

[For Cereals]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:21 AM, Macbeth said:

And I completely forgive him for Lost.

Nope.  No matter how good the episode was, I can’t do it.  Years were invested!

[Ubiquitous]

Wow! I need to mull this over before commenting on it, but I conjecture that

Spoiler

Lady Triue is going to use that clocktower she's building to house a mesmerizing device of epic proportions to end racism and make Adrien Veidt's plan permanent. 

[Cardie]

I wonder if the 7th Kav suspected that Angela had a relationship with Dr.Manhattan and that’s why she was spared and Judd cultivated her friendship. I also wonder if Lady Trieu has Veidt’s memories and thus access to his cloning expertise. 

[grawlix]

20 minutes ago, Cardie said:

I wonder if the 7th Kav suspected that Angela had a relationship with Dr.Manhattan and that’s why she was spared and Judd cultivated her friendship.

We would have to see what happened to the second gunman at Angela's house during the White Night attack.  She survived despite appearing complete defenseless to the second gunman.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:55 PM, HunterHunted said:

I don't know that I find that statement really at odds with Will's experiences. He was a small child whose neighborhood is papered with propaganda from WW1 Germany about inequality within American troops. His neighborhood is targeted by white terrorists for the sin  of being prosperous people of color. He's an orphan and refugee in his own country. He becomes a police officer and is targeted by his fellow officers. The only time he's made a lasting difference is as Hooded Justice and even that's been undermined by Captain Metropolis. Will/Hooded Justice is a profoundly cynical, jaded, person who has learned to play the game and hide in plain sight. Will might mention political entanglements, but maybe he's loathe to have Black troops go to Europe to fight for the freedoms of others only to return to the states to be treated as less than. Eighty-five percent of the lynchings of Blacks in the US happened after the Civil War. 

Will's neighborhood wasn't papered with WWI propaganda. Will's father was on somewhere on the front lines when the WWI propaganda was sent out, and for whatever reason, he held on to one piece of it, and for whatever further reason, he chose it to write a note to whoever found Will that they should "Watch over this boy."

The scene from the comics is about the Minutemen themselves going to Europe, not troops in general or black troops specifically.

But that aside, it seems to me like knowing the Nazis' philosophy of white supremacy as he must have by the time of the Minutemen photo shoot referenced above (1939), Will would not be someone to argue for non-intervention.

I guess I can buy the notion that DevF has laid out based on Peteypedia, that Will was being insincere and tweaking Capt. Metropolis and the others for claiming that they should not get involved in political situations domestically. But it seems like square peg, round hole to me.

[MJS]

On 11/25/2019 at 12:53 PM, kay1864 said:

Anyone else think for a minute that the man recording violence-inciting  instructions was Nelson Gardner?

Yup!

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 3:25 PM, saoirse said:

"This Extraordinary gentleman". Deep under the influence of Nostalgia, Angela gets a firsthand account of her grandfather's journey.

Wow, there was a lot to contemplate in this one! I liked the visuals as well.

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 12:56 AM, Dev F said:

(But I'm pretty picky in that respect. One of the few elements I dislike in the original graphic novel is how matter-of-fact everyone is about the idea that there are honest-to-god psychics in the world.)

My issue with Veidt using psychics to perpetuate his "big hoax" at the end was that it contradicted earlier statements that until the appearance of Doctor Manhattan, no one had super powers of any kind, but I couldn't help but wonder if Moloch the Mystic was more than what he seemed... Speaking of which, didn't we see Moloch associated with Cyclops in this ep?

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 4:44 AM, arc said:

Lindelof & co have pulled off a fantastic retcon in redefining who Hooded Justice was. I don't know how much it adds to the original Watchmen, where HJ was a tertiary character at best, but the resonances with Angela are terrific, all the way to how both characters have sort of thematically similar eye makeup.

Also, the fight at Fred's grocery was fantastic in how it recontextualized the mythical version told in American Hero Story in ep 2.

I have to give credit to Lindelof for retromodding Hooded Justice as a black man.

I got a laugh out of seeing what really happened at HJ's first appearance in that grocery store!

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 7:40 AM, Kelda Feegle said:

This ep made me wonder something - how triggering must it be for black actors to play roles that include this kind of racial history

Read up on the making of Roots.

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 9:02 AM, Tryangle said:

Well Captain Metropolis clearly comes off as a manipulative bastard in this episode, for starters.

Nelson Gardner/Captain Metropolis certainly didn't seem as clean-cut and wholesome as his public image, did he? I am trying to remember if he behaved the same way in the book and movie after their photoshoot.

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:53 PM, kay1864 said:

Anyone else think for a minute that the man recording violence-inciting  instructions was Nelson Gardner?

Nelson Gardner/Captain Metropolis' total lack of interest and dismissal of HJ's discovery made me wonder if he was involved as well. Perhaps it was the way they played it, but it was hard to judge whether he didn't believe Will or didn't care about a device to make black people fight each other.

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 3:54 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

In the graphic novel, Sally Jupiter recalls events around a Minuteman photo session. Sally asks HJ if he thinks her hair will come out OK. HJ responds that he doesn't care for all the razzle-dazzle and he'd rather be out on the streets doing his job. The Comedian chimes in and says something to the effect of "Streets, nothing! Why don't Uncle Sammy send us to Europe, where the action is?" HJ's response is to the effect of, "Firstly, we aren't at war. Secondly, we should avoid political entanglements." Which, to me, sounds like what a Nazi sympathizer might say. 

In any event, I don't think it is realistic to reconcile that statement and the underlying philosophy with the notion of a HJ who was champing at the bit to get the Minutemen to fight the KKK at home.

I think it's totally impossible to reconcile this point since this was a retcon of HJ, but I'm trying to remember if we saw this dialogue in this ep.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Ubiquitous said:

My issue with Veidt using psychics to perpetuate his "big hoax" at the end was that it contradicted earlier statements that until the appearance of Doctor Manhattan, no one had super powers of any kind, but I couldn't help but wonder if Moloch the Mystic was more than what he seemed...

I think the simple explanation is that Alan Moore has some kooky occult beliefs, so he thinks mild psychic abilities are not a fantasy superpower but just a thing that normal real-world people might actually have.

Quote

Speaking of which, didn't we see Moloch associated with Cyclops in this ep?

I don't think so. I read the scene with the reporters in Minutemen HQ as Captain Metropolis not wanting to talk about Cyclops, so he changes the subject to Moloch's unrelated evil plans.

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 4:26 PM, Dev F said:

I don't think so. I read the scene with the reporters in Minutemen HQ as Captain Metropolis not wanting to talk about Cyclops, so he changes the subject to Moloch's unrelated evil plans.

For some reason, I thought Moloch was in the back of store with the mesmerism machines.

On a related note, I wonder if there's a reason Cyclops' symbol looks similar to the eye of the giant squid that destroyed NYC?

[Affogato]

On 12/2/2019 at 1:46 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Will's neighborhood wasn't papered with WWI propaganda. Will's father was on somewhere on the front lines when the WWI propaganda was sent out, and for whatever reason, he held on to one piece of it, and for whatever further reason, he chose it to write a note to whoever found Will that they should "Watch over this boy."

The scene from the comics is about the Minutemen themselves going to Europe, not troops in general or black troops specifically.

But that aside, it seems to me like knowing the Nazis' philosophy of white supremacy as he must have by the time of the Minutemen photo shoot referenced above (1939), Will would not be someone to argue for non-intervention.

I guess I can buy the notion that DevF has laid out based on Peteypedia, that Will was being insincere and tweaking Capt. Metropolis and the others for claiming that they should not get involved in political situations domestically. But it seems like square peg, round hole to me.

I think it isn’t unreasonable to assume that HJ may have felt there was their own battle to be fought in their own country. Particularly (as rewritten)as a black man trying to convince his team members of the threat Cyclops posed at home. 

[Bruinsfan]

On 11/25/2019 at 1:25 PM, DearEvette said:

But then I thought the scene we saw last week where Wade was watching, of him and Captain Metropolis having sex, was creative license.  But nope.  Real. 

I wonder if the wife knew of Will's bisexuality (or possible homosexuality?)  In the last scene where she is telling him they are going to Tulsa, she says "You can't take it off.. You need to stay under that hood because you can't stand to see what you've become..I thought it would help you get rid of this thing you have but it didn't get rid of it, it just fed it."  Those lines are full of double entendre because it could be referring to his rage but it could also be referring to his sexuality.

I'm wondering how it is that alternate Ryan Murphy found out Captain Metropolis and Hooded Justice were lovers, but NOT that the latter was a black man. The latter was more explicitly stated than the former in Gardner's will, so I don't think that can be his source.

On 11/26/2019 at 10:35 AM, Tryangle said:

I found it really hard to tell from the episode. Will didn't seem "into it" during the sex scene or the in-bed dialogue, I'd have guessed he saw the whole thing as a means-to-an-end with regard to getting assistance. Even when their hands touched when Garner slid the business card over, I didn't see anything that suggested intimacy.

On the flip side I don't think we saw him emote desire when laying with his wife either.

Will was sobbing in the phone booth after he hung up on Gardner, that's what attracted Fred's notice. I took that as him seeing his (love?) affair with Gardner going up in smoke as well as his hopes of the Minutemen helping him fight racial injustice. (Or not even that, seeing their leader perpetrate it himself, as Gardener would have likely been less dismissive if the white, possibly gay patrons of the Waverly Theater in Greenwich Village had been the intended targets of Cyclops' plot.)