The Tudors (2007) - General Discussion

[GHScorpiosRule]

So. After watching the horrendous The White Princess, I decided to go and rewatch The Tudors, which was also historically inaccurate, but the performances of the cast involved were compelling enough for me to hand wave that away. Plus, they made it ENTERTAINING. Something that cannot be said of The White Princess.

Jonathan Rhys Meyers is such a delight as Henry VIII in his early years. I don't think I watched the last season and a half due to real life, so I'm looking forward to Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard, and Catherine Parr.

I just whipped through the first season and am halfway through the second season.

I found it hilarious that in the first season, first episode, when Henry says "Excellent!" to something, I heard Jonathan's Oirish brogue come out!

And since we can't have full forums any longer, my comments are going to be all over the place.

First, WTF with what Hirst (creator/writer) did with Mary's (Henry's sister played by Gabrielle Anwar) character? Like she was just a completely fictional character, who was quickly killed off, so, what was the point? And I know this is heresy/blasphemy, but I'm not a fan of Anwar, so this time around, I utilized my fast forward button for all her scenes. Even Cavill's hawtness wasn't enough to make me watch.

I adore Maria Doyle Kennedy, but her Catherine's way of speaking was very distracting. Of course, maybe she had the correct accent? It seemed certain words came off as if she had a lisp (th sounding), or when she would say words with a v, with a b; i.e. "never" it sounded like "neber." And shallow, shallow moment here, but she had the fugliest hands/feet. They just looked bloated. At first, when Anne was washing her feet, I think it was, I thought at first those were Wolsey's feet!

And that's another thing. Why change how Wolsey died? Dramatic license, I guess, since in real life, his death was oh so anticlimactic and boring. Though I wonder how he got to be Cardinal, when...oh never mind. The young Wolsey from that hack Phillipa Gregory from The White Princess was probably a fictionalized version anyway.

And why also kill off Henry's son by his mistress, Lady Blount at age 6ish? According to history, he died young, but he did live to about 17. I mean, his fictionalized death didn't affect Plot A of the series, so I am just confuzzled.

But I'm enjoying this SO MUCH MORE. I think a lot has to do with the cast. Like, who'dathunk that presumptuous Dweeb Duncan from The Last of the Mohicans could look attractive on this show? He was the Duke of Buckingham.

So, who's Game?

[Spartan Girl]

I am fucking game, baby!

I LOVED this show, warts and all. It was fun and at least got more right than that shitshow Reign. Plus Henry Cavill was fine as hell, but I too hated how they butchered Princess Marygaret's storyline. Ah well.

I am Team Katherine of Aragorn and always have been. People today trash her for not just getting out when she had the chance, but I don't blame her. She had her daughter to think about. Plus, in her place, would you be willing to give up being the Queen and going to a freaking CONVENT just because your douchebag husband wants another woman? Thought so.

Jonathan Rhys Myers was so delightfully over the top as Henry. He really struck the right chord between angry man baby and chilling sociopath. Especially in later seasons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I am fucking game, baby!

I LOVED this show, warts and all. It was fun and at least got more right than that shitshow Reign. Plus Henry Cavill was fine as hell, but I too hated how they butchered Princess Marygaret's storyline. Ah well.

I am Team Katherine of Aragorn and always have been. People today trash her for not just getting out when she had the chance, but I don't blame her. She had her daughter to think about. Plus, in her place, would you be willing to give up being the Queen and going to a freaking CONVENT just because your douchebag husband wants another woman? Thought so.

Jonathan Rhys Myers was so delightfully over the top as Henry. He really struck the right chord between angry man baby and chilling sociopath. Especially in later seasons.

Oh God. Don't remind me of that shitfest. I only got through one episode and that was IT.

Oh yeah, I'm totally Team Catherine. It's interesting the history on her, Henry, Anne--I've been boning up my knowledge so I'll know what is fact and what is made up for drama/creative license.

Though as much as I love Jonathan, I'm side-eyeing him for refusing to wear a fat suit in the last season, because Henry did become massively OBESE. And holy mackerel! I didn't realize that he was nearly 40 years older than his last wife, Parr. But, it was the 16th century, and that wasn't unusual. And he was a REAL PIECE OF WORK.

More later on my thoughts regarding Anne. Work CALLS!

[Spartan Girl]

24 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh God. Don't remind me of that shitfest. I only got through one episode and that was IT.

Oh yeah, I'm totally Team Catherine. It's interesting the history on her, Henry, Anne--I've been boning up my knowledge so I'll know what is fact and what is made up for drama/creative license.

Though as much as I love Jonathan, I'm side-eyeing him for refusing to wear a fat suit in the last season, because Henry did become massively OBESE. And holy mackerel! I didn't realize that he was nearly 40 years older than his last wife, Parr. But, it was the 16th century, and that wasn't unusual. And he was a REAL PIECE OF WORK.

More later on my thoughts regarding Anne. Work CALLS!

Oh yeah, he totally should have worn the fat suit. Although...it would have been an AWESOME final scene of the show if he'd looked at himself in the mirror and screamed in horror to see an old ugly fat man staring back at him, realizing the last two seasons of him being such a stud despite his leg where all in his ego-fueled diseased delusional mind. Hee.

Part of me wants to feel sorry for Anne because she got pimped out by her family. But at the same time...what did she expect? She really thought Henry would stay faithful to her? "He chose ME, he fell in love with ME, he respected MEEEEE..." Uh, no dear. He just wanted a son and to get under your corset. Plus, the shitty way she treated poor Princess Mary. Karma is a bitch.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Spartan Girl]

I would like to add that one of my favorite season one scenes is when Thomas Moore informed Henry about Martin Luther dissing his condemnation of the Protestant religion...I don't remember the exact words, but I think it was something along the lines of that he sounded like an unhinged child.

And Henry, as if to prove his point, bellows: "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!"

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I would like to add that one of my favorite season one scenes is when Thomas Moore informed Henry about Martin Luther dissing his condemnation of the Protestant religion...I don't remember the exact words, but I think it was something along the lines of that he sounded like an unhinged child.

And Henry, as if to prove his point, bellows: "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!"

I'magonna be nitpicky here, but it's Thomas More (only one o). And for all that Catherine had a "K" put on her suit of arms or whatever it was I read, her name is spelled with a C.

Regarding the pilot episode, I really wish the show/Hirst had given the viewers a clue as to what year it was and the name of Henry's uncle that was murdered. I hate when shows do that. Like I'm supposed to know? It couldn't have been any of his mother's brothers, because they're all DEAD. And I don't think Henry VII had any brothers, either. Sooo...was he a fictional uncle?

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'magonna be nitpicky here, but it's Thomas More (only one o).

D'oh! Sorry its been a while...

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

D'oh! Sorry its been a while...

😉

[Spartan Girl]

Season 2 was definitely my favorite season. And probably the one that was most accurate.

Despite the fact that he was quite possibly one of the worst fathers in history, I did find Henry's scenes with little Mary (and later little Elizabeth) adorable. That little smirk he gave Mary when she pushed the Dauphin to the ground was priceless. 

Of course, it's telling that his idea of parenting was to cuddle his daughter(s) for a couple minutes whenever it struck him and then give them back to their nurses and say "Papa's busy, do whatever you're told". And then when they were no longer cute and compliant and he fell out with the mothers he basically disowned them. Like I said, worst father ever.

I can't quite watch the scene of little Mary being betrothed to her ADULT cousin Charles without wanting to gag. Yes, it was medieval times and that's what happened but STILL...

Loved Sarah Bolger as the older Mary from season 2 and onward. The fact that she never got an Emmy nomination is a travesty.

[Constantinople]

On 11/14/2019 at 8:11 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I am Team Katherine of Aragorn and always have been. People today trash her for not just getting out when she had the chance, but I don't blame her. She had her daughter to think about. Plus, in her place, would you be willing to give up being the Queen and going to a freaking CONVENT just because your douchebag husband wants another woman? Thought so.

I've read that her day to day life in a convent would have been pretty much the same was it was after Henry kicked her out of court. Convents for the great and good were mean to provide a respectable life, but not necessarily a Spartan one.

[libgirl2]

On 11/14/2019 at 7:11 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I am Team Katherine of Aragorn and always have been. People today trash her for not just getting out when she had the chance, but I don't blame her. She had her daughter to think about. Plus, in her place, would you be willing to give up being the Queen and going to a freaking CONVENT just because your douchebag husband wants another woman? Thought so.

Jonathan Rhys Myers was so delightfully over the top as Henry. He really struck the right chord between angry man baby and chilling sociopath. Especially in later seasons.

I have only watched a little bit of this. I have read/studied Tudor history for the last 30+ years and the inconsistencies just are too much for me as were the not quite so period clothing. And while I like JRM, he should have worn a fat suit. Henry was not a sexy guy with a bad leg when he died. He was gross and obese and smelly. 

Now I am team Katherine of Aragon. My heart always breaks for her. Henry was her "knight in shining armor". In the early part of their marriage they were a real love match. She was also a princess of Spain and took her role VERY seriously. There was no way she would get out. She was an anointed queen and as a Catholic, you didn't get divorced. Henry could have his side pieces but the title of queen rightfully belonged to her. And Katherine still adored Henry. In her final letter to him she wrote "Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things."

Edited November 18, 2019 by libgirl2

[movingtargetgal]

I wish they would bring this series back because the Tudor's reign did not end with Henry Viii.  King Edward died very young but the power struggles behind the throne is a great story.  Poor Jane Grey whose father's lust for power cost Jane her life.  Sarah Bolger was wonderful as Princess Mary, she would be amazing as Queen Mary.  Then we have Elizabeth I and the Golden Age.  There is so much story yet to be told.

[libgirl2]

20 minutes ago, movingtargetgal said:

I wish they would bring this series back because the Tudor's reign did not end with Henry Viii.  King Edward died very young but the power struggles behind the throne is a great story.  Poor Jane Grey whose father's lust for power cost Jane her life.  Sarah Bolger was wonderful as Princess Mary, she would be amazing as Queen Mary.  Then we have Elizabeth I and the Golden Age.  There is so much story yet to be told.

Yes, there is so much more to tell. There have been a number of movies/series with Elizabeth. I would like to see one that concentrates on Edward/Jane and finally Mary. The three always seem to get glossed over in the story of Henry or Elizabeth. 

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this show overall but I thought that Jonathan Rhys Meyers was completely miscast and the most awful thing about it.  I don't think he's a great actor at all.  I just remember thinking that he must think that shouting equals "great acting".

Worst of all, I feel like his ego contributed to the backburnering of Henry Cavill.  During Season 1, the then-unknown Henry Cavill was clearly the breakout star.  Charles Brandon was a hugely important person in Henry VIII's life and could have been a co-lead.  I will always believe that Jonathan Rhys Meyers got all jelly that Cavill was getting so much attention and demanded that his role be dramatically reduced.  For that I will always be resentful, justified or not.

I still don't understand why they felt the need to combine Mary and Margaret into one person.  Just pick one and have her play that one.

Of the wives, I was most sympathetic to Maria Doyle Kennedy's Catherine but I absolutely loved Natalie Dormer as Anne Boleyn.  She was so deliciously aggressive.  I liked both Jane Seymours but found the recasting between seasons to be awkward, supposedly because the first one didn't want to do nudity.  I'll have to rewatch the series because I have no strong memories of either Anne of Cleves or Catherine Parr.  I remember thoroughly hating Catherine Howard to the point where when I saw the actress recently years later in "Carnival Row" that I instantly hated that character too.

I do agree that Sarah Bolger as Princess Mary was such a gem.  I view Mary Tudor as one of the tragic figures of England's history, so fervent in her beliefs that she became so twisted and misunderstood.  She was England's first undisputed Queen Regnant and I think her story is so interesting.  Too bad they wouldn't continue the series with her.  I definitely agree that there have been umpteen portrayals of Henry VIII and Elizabeth but the only time Mary shows up is as a minor supporting player in Henry's story and as someone on her way out in Elizabeth's.  It's about time we get a miniseries or movie which focuses primarily on Mary's life and reign.

[Spartan Girl]

18 hours ago, blackwing said:

I enjoyed this show overall but I thought that Jonathan Rhys Meyers was completely miscast and the most awful thing about it.  I don't think he's a great actor at all.  I just remember thinking that he must think that shouting equals "great acting".

True, all the yelling could wear thin.  "I'M THE KING OF ENGLAND!"  "ALL RIGHT, SO YOU WERE A FUCKING VIRGIN, THAT'S NOT THE POINT!"

[psychoticstate]

I recently started rewatching The Tudors.  I love it.  I love good historical dramas and while this may have some (or quite a bit) of creative license with it, I still think it has some fantastic performances.  Plus it's insanely addictive and fascinating.

I actually like JRM in the role of Henry.  While he doesn't resemble him in the slightest (either young and thin or older and fat), I think he does demonstrate how Henry was perceived at the time.  In his youth, he was considered handsome, charming, dashing and irresistible to the ladies.  I do think it was a mistake not to wear a fat suit, as it's very well known that after his accident and as he aged, Henry made up for the lack of activity with food.  At the end, Henry was supposed to be in his fifties, I think.  Giving JRM some gray streaks isn't enough.

I second what others have said about Sarah Bulger.  She was amazing as Mary.  I too would love a continuation, where we see the evolution of the 'people's princess" into Bloody Mary.   I'd also be curious to see what England was like following Henry's death and while Edward was still a young boy.  

Also like others, I disliked the character of Katherine Howard so much.  I felt sorry for her in a way because she was so young but she was also incredibly foolish and stupid (as well as Culpepper and Dereham).  Speaking of Dereham, I wasn't familiar with Allen Leech when I saw this series on a first go-round but now I associate him with Downton Abbey's Branson, who is one of my fave characters from that show so Dereham's ultimate fate is heartbreaking.

I thought Joss Stone was much too pretty to be portraying Anne of Cleves, who reportedly was tall, stout, homely (some say "horsey") and with a pockmarked face.  If you didn't know the reality, you'd wonder why Henry seemed so taken aback and disgusted upon first seeing her.  She's much prettier than Katherine Howard anyhow.  Regardless, it became very clear that Henry and Anne of Cleves were ultimately very suited to one another.  Here was someone that would have been loyal and faithful to him, who had a very caring and giving heart, who was happy to play cards with him and who looked after his children.  What might have been, I suppose.

I thought it was interesting that at the end of the series, with the updates on Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth, we didn't get any update on Catherine Parr, who went on to marry Thomas Seymour and die either in childbirth or not long after.  I did wonder why the series basically dropped her relationship with Seymour very abruptly.  

I thought Natalie Dormer was awesome as Anne Boleyn.  I think she really captured the character of AB, who was said to be very strong willed.  

One thing I always take away from watching this series, and others like it, life in those times was certainly not easy!  

[dubstepford wife]

One of my first period dramas!

As historically inaccurate as this show could be, I will give them one big thing: I think it had the most accurate portrayal of Anne Boleyn we've ever seen.  I love me some Claire Foy, don't get me wrong, but Anne in Wolf Hall is just a child constantly throwing temper tantrums.  She's petty and annoying and you don't really see her as being captivating.  The real Anne had a hot temper, but she was extremely educated and intelligent, deeply religious and committed to the reformation, and despite some describing her physically as not being an ideal 16th century beauty, she had undeniable charisma.  Natalie Dormer I felt captured all of that perfectly.  And even her execution in The Tudors seemed better done.  In Wolf Hall Anne looked terrified and could barely speak during her farewell address to the crowd, whereas Natalie's Anne was confident and strong.  

Fun fact: at one point, Tamzin Merchant (Katherine Howard) was cast as Daenerys in Game of Thrones.  That would have been a disaster.   

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven’t managed to resume my rewatch since Disney + became available. BUT. I watched Cate Blanchette’s Elizabeth AND Elizabeth: The Golden Age and whaddya know-Michael Hirst, who created this show, also wrote the screenplay for those two movies!

I need to go down the rabbit hole to figure out what was made up and what’s history, because Lord I’d forgotten what a whiny man/boy Lord Dudley was.

And I’ll stop here lest I go too much off topic.

OH! But James Frain, who played Thomas Cromwell here, also appeared in the first movie as one of the Ambassadors of Spain, who conspired against Elizabeth. If how he was portrayed was true. Hell, he’s been in every series about the Tudor line! He was Warwick in The White Queen!🤪🤪😄😄😄

[psychoticstate]

28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I haven’t managed to resume my rewatch since Disney + became available. BUT. I watched Cate Blanchette’s Elizabeth AND Elizabeth: The Golden Age and whaddya know-Michael Hirst, who created this show, also wrote the screenplay for those two movies!

I need to go down the rabbit hole to figure out what was made up and what’s history, because Lord I’d forgotten what a whiny man/boy Lord Dudley was.

And I’ll stop here lest I go too much off topic.

OH! But James Frain, who played Thomas Cromwell here, also appeared in the first movie as one of the Ambassadors of Spain, who conspired against Elizabeth. If how he was portrayed was true. Hell, he’s been in every series about the Tudor line! He was Warwick in The White Queen!🤪🤪😄😄😄

I love James Frain.  He's so good in everything he's in.

The cheese may stand alone but I was distinctly underwhelmed by Blanchett's Elizabeth.  Not her performance per se but the movie itself.  I heard so much about it and I just found it ehhhh.   Didn't even bother with Elizabeth: The Golden Age. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

I love James Frain.  He's so good in everything he's in.

The cheese may stand alone but I was distinctly underwhelmed by Blanchett's Elizabeth.  Not her performance per se but the movie itself.  I heard so much about it and I just found it ehhhh.   Didn't even bother with Elizabeth: The Golden Age. 

Overall I agree about both movies, but when I compare them to the horrid adaptations based on the hack Phillipa Gregory books, they’re practically Oscaresque!🤪😄😄 The Golden Age was nothing but soap opera trash. I don’t know what possessed Cate to agree to do it.

But Elizabeth had a great cast! Along with Cate, James and Geoffrey Rush were amazing.

I don’t know about you, @psychoticstate, but the ending reminded me of the end of The Godfather, where Michael cleaned house, killing all his enemies!

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t know about you, @psychoticstate, but the ending reminded me of the end of The Godfather, where Michael cleaned house, killing all his enemies!

Or that scene in Smallville with the Magnificent Bastard getting his head shaved while putting the hits on Chloe and Lex ;)

Robert Dudley was a whiny man baby who was even worse in real life -- Elizabeth KNEW he was married, and he (or even her if the Philippa Gregory novels have a grain of truth) might had his wife killed so that he could marry Elizabeth and be king.

@GHScorpiosRule I don't blame you for being caught up in Disney+ (I'm tempted more every day) , but I do hope you can catch up on The Tudors soon!

[psychoticstate]

Not the Tudors but has anyone here watched Reign?  Is it any good?  It's popped up on my Netflix and I'm tempted to give it a go.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

52 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Not the Tudors but has anyone here watched Reign?  Is it any good?  It's popped up on my Netflix and I'm tempted to give it a go.  

Stay Away from that dreck. Very far far far far awaaaay.

[psychoticstate]

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Stay Away from that dreck. Very far far far far awaaaay.

Oh, maybe I'll binge Mr. Selfridge instead! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Nothing to do but catch up on this show while I was suffering from the flu.

I can't recall why they recast Jane Seymour when season three started up? And the show just started to get lazy with this season, introducing characters we hadn't heard of before, let alone seen! Like that Francis Ryan, one-eyed spy/assassin? I haven't gone down the History Rabbit Hole to find out if he existed or not. 

Ah, Lady Salisbury, a amalgamation of Lady Pole whose early years I watched on The White Princess and The Spanish Princess. So, did Reginald Pole escape assassination? Because you know, after dispatching Cromwell (Oh, James Frain, how I will miss you and how the show suffered with your absence!), they totally dropped that story line as well.

I remember reading over on TWoP, what a great choice Joss Stone was to play Anne of Cleves, but then how she couldn't act to save her life. Which, I have to agree with. All she did was giggle, tilt her head and smile and look like a deer in front of headlights.

Poor Charles Brandon. I was hoping that when Cromwell told him that he had to go back and kill more than just 74, including women and children, that he was lying. That Charles would go to Henry to confirm he'd actually given that order. I know I should be on Catherine's side after Charles told her what he had to do, and what he ended up doing, but he didn't want to tell her what was troubling him, because he knew and TOLD HER it would change how she felt about him. But noooo, "unburden yourself" she says, tell me, tell me, and what does she do when he does? She turns against him. And then it hit me. Both Henry Cavill and James Frain starred together in The Count of Monte Cristo five years earlier! Henry as the "son" of the Count and Frain as one of the crooked lawyers or prosecutors who sentenced him to that island. Now I'm going to have to rewatch to see if they shared any scenes together!

So they also aged up, or as we say in the soaps, SORASed, both Edward by a couple of years, as well as Elizabeth, around the time and after Henry married Anne of Cleves. Like, WHY? Bad enough they're showing things that happened out of order, and making other shit up. I certainly didn't need to see them SORASed.

Okay, this is going to sound mean, but the child they had playing Elizabeth at the end of season two and beginning of three, I thought at first was a little woman. Then I saw she was supposed to be Elizabeth. But she had NO NECK! It's like her head was stuck in the place between her shoulders, but no neck!

And I wonder if Cromwell was framed as the show was "telling" us, or if that was true? I'm banking on the former, because Henry, that sot, just loved to kill on a whim, or when it suited him. And was it really him who came up with that last line in the doxology? You know, this: "For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever."

I got through half of season four last night. Will post about that later.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know I should be on Catherine's side after Charles told her what he had to do, and what he ended up doing, but he didn't want to tell her what was troubling him, because he knew and TOLD HER it would change how she felt about him. But noooo, "unburden yourself" she says, tell me, tell me, and what does she do when he does? She turns against him. And then it hit me. Both Henry Cavill and James Frain starred together in The Count of Monte Cristo five years earlier! Henry as the "son" of the Count and Frain as one of the crooked lawyers or prosecutors who sentenced him to that island. Now I'm going to have to rewatch to see if they shared any scenes together!

Ooh I LOVED Henry Cavill in Count of Monte Cristo!  So hot, even back then.  But I forgot Frain was in it too!  Holy crap...

Agree with everything you said about Charles Brandon.  His wife was garbage.  

Cromwell's execution scene was DREADFUL.  Despite everything he did, I couldn't help feeling sorry for him when he broke down on the executioner's block.  And the look on his face when he saw how drunk the executioner was and knowing it was not going to be an easy death?!  Gah...Frain fucking nailed that scene.

Get better soon!  Can't wait for your thoughts on season four! 🙂

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Cromwell's execution scene was DREADFUL.  Despite everything he did, I couldn't help feeling sorry for him when he broke down on the executioner's block.  And the look on his face when he saw how drunk the executioner was and knowing it was not going to be an easy death?!  Gah...Frain fucking nailed that scene.

It was. I was watching through my fingers, even though this show doesn't actually "show" the actual beheading. And I'm still at a loss as to why one-eyed dude who thinks he's such a bad ass, got the executioner drunk so that Cromwell would suffer and die in agony. And why the guard waited to take the axe before ending it. Should have done after the first "attempt" when the axe got stuck in Cromwell's neck.

And I haven't been able to find out if one-eyed dude existed, because nothing comes up when I do a search. So his character was soooo unnecessary. As were all the scenes of him cuckolding Edward Seymour, by fucking his wife. There is a lot of information out there, where they could have fleshed out what was happening in Henry's Court during that time, instead of wasting it on one-eyed dude Francis.

I'm 80% improved. Still haven't got my voice back, still hacking (but no lung has come out) cough, and sniffles.

And let me just say I detest what I've seen of season 4 so far. Yes, yes, Catherine Howard was a teenager, blah, blah, blah, but Hirst and the others had her running around like it was the 20th Century, hair all over the place, and she acted more like she was 8 than the 17 she was. And that Hirst SHOULD have used the actual history of how she caught Henry's eye, instead of having One-eyed dude Francis and Thomas Seymour, go to Dowager Duchess Norfolk's house and pick her out. Instead we got soap opera anachronistic trash.

Will have more, in detail, later.

Edited January 2, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

Catherine Howard's age varies with each historical account. She was either 15 or 17, I think.

Cromwell might have been framed, or Henry just wanted him out of the way because his part in the Anne of Cleve's marriage. When Henry VIII gets pissed, people DIE.

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Catherine Howard's age varies with each historical account. She was either 15 or 17, I think.

Cromwell might have been framed, or Henry just wanted him out of the way because his part in the Anne of Cleve's marriage. When Henry VIII gets pissed, doesn't get his way, people DIE.

There! Fixed that for ya!😁

[psychoticstate]

@GHScorpiosRule, I remember hearing that Jane Seymour was recast because the initial actress did not want to do any nudity.  But who knows if that's true or not.  

I didn't find Joss Stone to be a horrendous actress.  I actually rather liked her as Anne of Cleves.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

@GHScorpiosRule, I remember hearing that Jane Seymour was recast because the initial actress did not want to do any nudity.  But who knows if that's true or not.  

I didn't find Joss Stone to be a horrendous actress.  I actually rather liked her as Anne of Cleves.  

And the irony is there was no nudity! All the nudity was with One-eyed Dude Francis and Edward's wife. All we got of Jane Seymour was that she was a biddable wife/Queen.

I thought it was pretty cold how Edward told her of their father's death.

I'm not saying Joss was horrendous--she didn't really have a lot to do--acting wise, except to be sweet. Except for the two uncomfortable scenes when Henry is trying to get it up so he can have sex with her. And speaking of which, I CANNOT believe Hirst had them doing that in season four! GAH! Or did they just literally, lay together, with no carnal knowledge of each other? ARGH!!!

Oh wait. Yes I can. Didn't this guy also create and write for The Borgias?

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not saying Joss was horrendous--she didn't really have a lot to do--acting wise, except to be sweet. Except for the two uncomfortable scenes when Henry is trying to get it up so he can have sex with her. And speaking of which, I CANNOT believe Hirst had them doing that in season four! GAH! Or did they just literally, lay together, with no carnal knowledge of each other? ARGH!!!

I HATED THAT TOO. The whole reason behind the smear campaign of Anne of Cleve's being called ugly was to cover for Henry VIII being impotent and that Anne couldn't stand him because he was an ugly fat old man. Having them have post breakup sex was just too much, even for this show. Stupid writers and JRM's vanity.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I HATED THAT TOO. The whole reason behind the smear campaign of Anne of Cleve's being called ugly was to cover for Henry VIII being impotent and that Anne couldn't stand him because he was an ugly fat old man. Having them have post breakup sex was just too much, even for this show. Stupid writers and JRM's vanity.

Good lord, did Hirst really give into Meyers' demands? I mean, he wasn't that big a star, was he? All I know is he did Bend it Like Beckham before this series. And I think he played a young Elvis in an ABC mini-series. I'm too lazy to look, but I don't know if it was after this series ended or before. No fat suit, changing history because...well aside from Hirst's own reasons, blah, blah, blah. Bad enough that they got rid of one sister, Margaret, and changing her only surviving son, James V, who Henry fought with, to being his "cousin" when in fact, he was his fucking NEPHEW! 

Ahem.

So, I just breezed through the final and horrible season, even if the finale made me teary (more on that below), while grumbling at all the wasted opportunities. I fast forwarded through all the sex scenes with Katherine and Thomas (BLECH) 🤢and stuff that didn't have dialogue, and yes, even the rape scene, because of course, we can't have a period piece without having at least one rape scene! (insert sarcasm here). For one, how did the historians know about this, I was wondering, as it unfolded? He and his "pals" weren't going to brag about it.  It was when I went to one site ((the boleyn files) which is sooooooo slanted it's not even funny, and the commentators act as if they PERSONALLY knew Anne Boleyn, Katherine Howard, et al., and how Katherine was just a victim who was used, abused and scapegoated, despite EVIDENCE of love letters to Culpepper), that I learned that after Culpepper was executed, someone from the same parish? where he'd raped that woman and killed her husband (the person referred to him as a neighbor/farmer--really?) witnessed the execution and informed her? And all these people are saying how BEAUTIFUL both Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard were. Really? Every single painting I've seen of all the wives and these two, they all look like they are 20 years older than they're supposed to be and all look the fucking same. And are FUGLY. There, I said it. Since Hirst was playing willy/nilly, fast and loose with history and accuracy, I don't know why he couldn't have had the woman witness his execution and her face be the last he saw before his head got chopped off. But, I'm getting ahead of myself.

FIRST, Katherine, historically, and there is documentation of this, was Anne of Cleve's maid of honor--and that's where she caught Henry's eye. She wasn't found by one-eyed dude and Sir Thomas at the Dowager Duchess Norfolk's home as someone "different" to get Henry a woman, after annulling his marriage to Anne. And it was during that time, that she and Culpepper supposedly started a relationship.

But instead, we get a Culpepper, someone we hadn't seen in the past two seasons at all--when he would have been Henry's groom, suddenly show up, and act more like an obsessive stalker, watching every move of Katherine's. That's real love there, folks. 16th Century Style! And showing up to spend time with the Queen as if he had every right to do so.

Then Katherine's former lover, Frances Dereham shows up, and Good GOD, maybe in the 19th and 20th century he could get away with shit talking he did, and the presumptuous behavior, but not in fucking 1540! That NO ONE reported his treasonous words (because that kind of talk was treasonous) to the King was so fucking unbelievable.

But Katherine. Good God almighty. I get it; she was young. A teenager. But even for a teenager in that era, she would have been taught how to act and know who she was marrying. Instead, we get someone who acts like a ditzy, corn for brains 10 year-old MORON, playing dress up, instead of someone who should know how to behave in public, at least. She was Anne Boleyn's FIRST cousin and should have KNOWN BETTER.  And throwing tantrums because Princess Mary didn't like her, or give her the respect she thought she deserved. Clearly she wasn't an idiot when it came to knowing how to prevent pregnancies. Or how to keep her affair with Culpepper a secret. The first half of this season was just wasted on so much frivolity and nonsense.

So glad when it finally ended. But I did watch through my fingers when Dereham was tortured, because that was gross. And both his and Culpepper's heads were on the London Bridge for nearly 5 years! YUCK. And despite the dramatic words, Katherine never said that she was dying as a Queen and would have much preferred to die as Culpepper's wife. And she was religious, despite how in show, she told the priest she wasn't. And historically, she was killed before Lady Rochford, but of course, this is television, so more dramatic to have Lady Rochford executed first, so we could see her bowels loosen--well, that she "peed in her pants" so to speak.

I suppose it was the fact that Anne lost a son that Henry was quick to believe all the lies about her and condemn her to death. Because with Katherine, he demanded PROOF first.

After that, I mostly zipped through the last four episodes, after Catherine Parr was introduced. Wonder if Joely Richardson demanded that she be credited as "special guest star" instead of just her name in the opening credits? Anyhoo, I'm going to see if how she was portrayed on the show is how she was--you know, in love with Thomas Seymour, but thwarted from marrying him once Henry set his sights on her; if there was a conspiracy to kill her for her "heretic" beliefs.

I really, really, really hate bishop Gardiner. It would be another 10 years before he gets his own head lopped off. 

And that's another thing the show did that confused the heck out of me. Henry cut ties with Rome; he wanted to wipe out Catholicism, right? So his writing his own six Articles of Laws regarding religion were...Protestant, right? But I know some of them had Catholic measures, so it seemed it was an amalgamation of both. Yet, yet, yet. Gardiner and Rich acted as if Catholicism was the religion Henry wanted, but it wasn't! Yet Henry gave that asshole leave to question torture "heretics" who were clearly Protestants (what?) and kill them. Conversely, it made more sense, when Cromwell did it, because Henry wanted to wipe out Catholicism. Who did Henry think Gardiner was torturing and then him agreeing to have them executed? It was all so contradictory. Because we know that Rich and Gardiner were papists still. Huh? I admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to trying to figure out what was going on. Unless it was Lutheran Protestants who were considered heretics? Not just "regular" Protestants? And then we get Henry talking to all priests and bishops, some of whom are Catholics. What the what, now?

And Lord Surrey gets executed offscreen? How'd he get to be so speshial?

And then the quick change in Princess Mary's character. Guess her Catholic piety was so strong, she would turn against people she considered friends. Like Queen Catherine. It would have been helpful if we'd had tags to show the passage of time for this to have happened, because one minute she's confiding in her stepmother, is shown to be good friends with her, and then poof! She's a "heretic" so she must die. And because it's the end of the final season, Hirst MUST sow the seeds of how she'll be known as "Bloody Mary." Whatever. Wonder if Sarah would have been willing to wear a fat suit, had Hirst decided to do a series on Mary? Because in later years, she got fat, finally married at age 37, and then thought she was pregnant when she wasn't. And really, she was portrayed as a FUGLY woman in Elizabeth--one who didn't believe in taking care of her teeth. (shudder). But I suppose that was...realistic?

And of COURSE Brandon died before Henry in show. Of course he did, even though historically, Brandon died four years AFTER Henry had. On one hand, I was peeved, because I didn't expect it; on the other, well, at least we got to say good-bye, though I wish his son Henry would have acknowledged Brigitte at his father's funeral, even if his cold fish of a mother was acting like a grieving widow who loved her husband. Which, in show, we were shown and told, she was not. Stupid Cow.

But I will give credit to Meyers--I didn't even recognize his voice in the second to last episode--the low, gravelly, gruff voice of Henry in ill health. Kudos. I guess wearing all those huge robes was his concession/substitute for a fat suit?

I did like the paintings that Holbein did of Henry--both of them. Or rather, whoever did the paintings. Great job of putting Meyers' face in there. Though the body was still on the slim side. And Meyers should have kept his moustache.

And boy, was Catherine smart. The way she told Henry she looked to him to guide her, (if it happened) saved her neck. I loved Henry calling Risley a "knave" and kicking him out! Made me laugh my ass off.🤣😂 Now I know why he told his groom "why?" when said groom asked if he should tell Gardiner to cancel the arrest warrant for the Queen. And how he refused to see Gardiner and ordered him out of his court. But we know he'll return when Mary becomes Queen.

And while I loved seeing Natalie Dormer back for the finale, I was NOT a fan of Henry seeing her or Catherine or Jane's ghosts. Like that narcissistic, self-absorbed, megalomaniac TYRANT would feel love or guilt about anyone or anything. And I ESPECIALLY didn't care for Jane's "Oh my poor, poor boy!" as if Edward contracting TB was HENRY'S fault. I didn't like the choice of making her bitter and angry at Henry, fortelling him that Edward would die young. The tag at the end was more than sufficient. But...DRAMA! I guess.  I really thought we'd see Henry die in bed like he did, or however he died, instead of getting that tag as he walked away from the second painting Holbein had completed. But I did like the montage from the beginning with Brandon and the jousting, to all his exploits and wives and emotional beats.

Really, the first two seasons were the best. If Hirst could have pulled his head out of his own ass, and actually tried to do more things that actually happened, because there is documentation of a LOT we didn't see and do know about, this could have been a better show in the last two seasons, and especially the last couple of episodes.

I'm sure I missed some stuff I wanted to say, but this is all I can remember this morning. I'm sure I'll fill in other stuff later.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Really, the first two seasons were the best.

Agreed.  I think the second season was the best and probably most accurate.

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But Katherine. Good God almighty. I get it; she was young. A teenager. But even for a teenager in that era, she would have been taught how to act and know who she was marrying. Instead, we get someone who acts like a ditzy, corn for brains 10 year-old MORON, playing dress up, instead of someone who should know how to behave in public, at least. She was Anne Boleyn's FIRST cousin and should have KNOWN BETTER.  And throwing tantrums because Princess Mary didn't like her, or give her the respect she thought she deserved. Clearly she wasn't an idiot when it came to knowing how to prevent pregnancies. Or how to keep her affair with Culpepper a secret. The first half of this season was just wasted on so much frivolity and nonsense.

Spot on.  They really upped the mean girl factor with her, thought supposedly there were tensions between her and Mary, or so I read somewhere.  She would have been more sympathetic if they had let Meyers into an old fat man making her crappy choices a bit more understandable albeit stupid, but whatever.

I did like Joely Richardson as Catherine Parr, but really hate how people always call her the "survivor" of Henry VIII.  Yeah, she outlived him, but there was no happy ending for her, marrying that asshole pervert Thomas Seymour who then proceeded to try and shag Elizabeth while she was living under her room and died in childbirth.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I did like Joely Richardson as Catherine Parr, but really hate how people always call her the "survivor" of Henry VIII.  Yeah, she outlived him, but there was no happy ending for her, marrying that asshole pervert Thomas Seymour who then proceeded to try and shag Elizabeth while she was living under her room and died in childbirth.

1. Oh, that's such bullshit. Anne of Cleve also survived him, AND she was the only one who outlived them all and was the last to pass away.
2. GACK! I read about How Catherine and Thomas "played games" with Elizabeth while she was a young girl, and then it stopped. My mind totally blanked on that until you mentioned it. Here's what Wikipedia says: "In March 1548, at the age of 35, Catherine became pregnant. This pregnancy was a surprise as Catherine had not conceived during her first three marriages. During this time, Seymour began to take an interest in Lady Elizabeth. Seymour had reputedly plotted to marry her before marrying Catherine, and it was reported later that Catherine discovered the two in an embrace. On a few occasions before the situation risked getting completely out of hand, according to the deposition of Kat Ashley, Catherine appears not only to have acquiesced in episodes of horseplay, but actually to have assisted her husband.[27] Whatever actually happened, Elizabeth was sent away in May 1548 to stay with Sir Anthony Denny's household at Cheshunt and never saw her beloved stepmother again, although the two corresponded. Elizabeth immediately wrote a letter to the Queen and Seymour after she left Chelsea. The letter demonstrates a sort of remorse" So I guess everything they showed about Thomas being her "love" in the show was accurate. I just briefly read and so were the conspiracies against her. But she and Henry had been taking a walk when Risley approached to try and arrest her. 

 

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah Anne of Cleves was the real survivor. She was smart enough to agree to the divorce and was a happier, richer, independent woman for it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah Anne of Cleves was the real survivor. She was smart enough to agree to the divorce and was a happier, richer, independent woman for it.

Not a divorce, but annulment.

Man. I need a break from this. From beheadings and torture and war. I need a palate cleanser!

[qtpye]

On 11/15/2019 at 9:24 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh God. Don't remind me of that shitfest. I only got through one episode and that was IT.

Oh yeah, I'm totally Team Catherine. It's interesting the history on her, Henry, Anne--I've been boning up my knowledge so I'll know what is fact and what is made up for drama/creative license.

Though as much as I love Jonathan, I'm side-eyeing him for refusing to wear a fat suit in the last season, because Henry did become massively OBESE. And holy mackerel! I didn't realize that he was nearly 40 years older than his last wife, Parr. But, it was the 16th century, and that wasn't unusual. And he was a REAL PIECE OF WORK.

More later on my thoughts regarding Anne. Work CALLS!

 

On 11/15/2019 at 9:48 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Oh yeah, he totally should have worn the fat suit. Although...it would have been an AWESOME final scene of the show if he'd looked at himself in the mirror and screamed in horror to see an old ugly fat man staring back at him, realizing the last two seasons of him being such a stud despite his leg where all in his ego-fueled diseased delusional mind. Hee.

Part of me wants to feel sorry for Anne because she got pimped out by her family. But at the same time...what did she expect? She really thought Henry would stay faithful to her? "He chose ME, he fell in love with ME, he respected MEEEEE..." Uh, no dear. He just wanted a son and to get under your corset. Plus, the shitty way she treated poor Princess Mary. Karma is a bitch.

 

On 11/18/2019 at 3:19 PM, libgirl2 said:

I have only watched a little bit of this. I have read/studied Tudor history for the last 30+ years and the inconsistencies just are too much for me as were the not quite so period clothing. And while I like JRM, he should have worn a fat suit. Henry was not a sexy guy with a bad leg when he died. He was gross and obese and smelly. 

Now I am team Katherine of Aragon. My heart always breaks for her. Henry was her "knight in shining armor". In the early part of their marriage they were a real love match. She was also a princess of Spain and took her role VERY seriously. There was no way she would get out. She was an anointed queen and as a Catholic, you didn't get divorced. Henry could have his side pieces but the title of queen rightfully belonged to her. And Katherine still adored Henry. In her final letter to him she wrote "Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things."

 

On 11/19/2019 at 12:21 PM, Spartan Girl said:

True, all the yelling could wear thin.  "I'M THE KING OF ENGLAND!"  "ALL RIGHT, SO YOU WERE A FUCKING VIRGIN, THAT'S NOT THE POINT!"

 

On 12/30/2019 at 9:03 PM, dubstepford wife said:

One of my first period dramas!

As historically inaccurate as this show could be, I will give them one big thing: I think it had the most accurate portrayal of Anne Boleyn we've ever seen.  I love me some Claire Foy, don't get me wrong, but Anne in Wolf Hall is just a child constantly throwing temper tantrums.  She's petty and annoying and you don't really see her as being captivating.  The real Anne had a hot temper, but she was extremely educated and intelligent, deeply religious and committed to the reformation, and despite some describing her physically as not being an ideal 16th century beauty, she had undeniable charisma.  Natalie Dormer I felt captured all of that perfectly.  And even her execution in The Tudors seemed better done.  In Wolf Hall Anne looked terrified and could barely speak during her farewell address to the crowd, whereas Natalie's Anne was confident and strong.  

Fun fact: at one point, Tamzin Merchant (Katherine Howard) was cast as Daenerys in Game of Thrones.  That would have been a disaster.   

 

On 12/31/2019 at 1:31 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I haven’t managed to resume my rewatch since Disney + became available. BUT. I watched Cate Blanchette’s Elizabeth AND Elizabeth: The Golden Age and whaddya know-Michael Hirst, who created this show, also wrote the screenplay for those two movies!

I need to go down the rabbit hole to figure out what was made up and what’s history, because Lord I’d forgotten what a whiny man/boy Lord Dudley was.

And I’ll stop here lest I go too much off topic.

OH! But James Frain, who played Thomas Cromwell here, also appeared in the first movie as one of the Ambassadors of Spain, who conspired against Elizabeth. If how he was portrayed was true. Hell, he’s been in every series about the Tudor line! He was Warwick in The White Queen!🤪🤪😄😄😄

 

On 12/31/2019 at 2:00 PM, psychoticstate said:

I love James Frain.  He's so good in everything he's in.

The cheese may stand alone but I was distinctly underwhelmed by Blanchett's Elizabeth.  Not her performance per se but the movie itself.  I heard so much about it and I just found it ehhhh.   Didn't even bother with Elizabeth: The Golden Age. 

 

On 1/2/2020 at 12:25 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Ooh I LOVED Henry Cavill in Count of Monte Cristo!  So hot, even back then.  But I forgot Frain was in it too!  Holy crap...

Agree with everything you said about Charles Brandon.  His wife was garbage.  

Cromwell's execution scene was DREADFUL.  Despite everything he did, I couldn't help feeling sorry for him when he broke down on the executioner's block.  And the look on his face when he saw how drunk the executioner was and knowing it was not going to be an easy death?!  Gah...Frain fucking nailed that scene.

Get better soon!  Can't wait for your thoughts on season four! 🙂

 

 

On 1/2/2020 at 2:20 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Catherine Howard's age varies with each historical account. She was either 15 or 17, I think.

Cromwell might have been framed, or Henry just wanted him out of the way because his part in the Anne of Cleve's marriage. When Henry VIII gets pissed, people DIE.

I am a total Tudor lover and have learned to forgive many of the inaccuracies as the show is brilliant camp compared to many shows that have come since.

Henry was married to his first wife longer than the rest of his wives combined. The actress was amazing but hate that they always pick a dark haired gal as the Spanish princess.

It amazed me that no matter how horrible a person acted, their death scenes always touched my heart. 

The men and women of this series were so gorgeous that seeing their more accurate counterparts in Wolf Hall was shocking.

Natatalie Dormer is my Anne B.

[libgirl2]

14 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a total Tudor lover and have learned to forgive many of the inaccuracies as the show is brilliant camp compared to many shows that have come since.

Henry was married to his first wife longer than the rest of his wives combined. The actress was amazing but hate that they always pick a dark haired gal as the Spanish princess.

It amazed me that no matter how horrible a person acted, their death scenes always touched my heart. 

The men and women of this series were so gorgeous that seeing their more accurate counterparts in Wolf Hall was shocking.

Natatalie Dormer is my Anne B.

Wolf Hall was really good.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Talk about rabbit holes!

I thought I’d check out the six part series The Six Wives Of Henry VIII on Prime, but it’s actually available on Acorn and I didn’t feel like doing the free trial. But it led me to The Last Days of Anne Boleyn which was fascinating. The actor they had portraying Henry in this documentary looked more like the actual king! It’s interesting that none of the historians and authors who were the talking heads mentioned that Lady Rochford was one of the witnesses that testified that her husband, George, was in an incestual relationship with his sister.

But I 🙄🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒 at one guy, George Bernard, who said Anne was totally guilty because “there was no torture in King Henry’s court.” Is he serious??? And that hack, Philippa Gregory who said that of course Anne would commit incest and have a child with her BROTHER and pass it off as Henry’s because she and her brother didn’t grow up together! According to her, they were strangers. What, did she read Flowers in the Attic before they taped this?

I found David Starkey to be the most...objective, as well as Heather Lipscomb, I think her name was. 

Then I found another show, hosted by Starkey, about Edward and Mary: Edward and Mary: The Unknown Tudors.
 

The worst was Elizabeth: Queen Killer?, about how she could have had Dudley’s wife killed because she wanted to marry that ass. No evidence or proof, mind you, just gossip and the people interviewed own speculation.

There’s no doubt, after the inquest report that she was murdered, based on the injuries in the base of her neck, but Dudley wasn’t there when it happened. Supposedly. Still, nothing but a trash piece trying to coat itself as an objective documentary.

[Spartan Girl]

The one really good scene in season 4 was Mary reacting to her friend Chapuys' passing: "He was the truest friend...and now I have nobody."  

The most heartbreaking thing was because it was true.  Chapuys was the only one person she trusted with her true best interests at heart.  The other Catholic guys trying to chum up to her were doing it for their benefit, and she could never trust anyone on the Protestant side -- even her stepmother -- because the Reformist represented to her everyone that ruined her and her mother's lives (Anne, Cromwell, etc).

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The one really good scene in season 4 was Mary reacting to her friend Chapuys' passing: "He was the truest friend...and now I have nobody."  

The most heartbreaking thing was because it was true.  Chapuys was the only one person she trusted with her true best interests at heart.  The other Catholic guys trying to chum up to her were doing it for their benefit, and she could never trust anyone on the Protestant side -- even her stepmother -- because the Reformist represented to her everyone that ruined her and her mother's lives (Anne, Cromwell, etc).

True. But in the end, during her short reign, she proved she was her father's daughter--the burning of so many Protestants. But of course she didn't think she was doing anything wrong. But if I never hear another word from Gregory or George, it will be TOO SOON.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

True. But in the end, during her short reign, she proved she was her father's daughter--the burning of so many Protestants. But of course she didn't think she was doing anything wrong. But if I never hear another word from Gregory or George, it will be TOO SOON.

She was undoubtedly her father's daughter, but her reign was collateral damage from Henry taking over the Church and polarizing the country for his own ends. Had Henry stayed with Katherine and not torn everything apart and been a better human being, Mary might have been a much different queen.

[libgirl2]

18 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

She was undoubtedly her father's daughter, but her reign was collateral damage from Henry taking over the Church and polarizing the country for his own ends. Had Henry stayed with Katherine and not torn everything apart and been a better human being, Mary might have been a much different queen.

And a much happier woman. 

[Spartan Girl]

I rewatched the episode of season one with the sweat outbreak aka the plague and wow the comparisons to what's going on right now are scary. Of course medicine back then was dubious at best, which made it worse.

Really telling how Henry fancied himself a medical expert, thinking he could protect himself from the disease by inventing his own cures and "working up his own sweat" to keep away THE sweat.

HA HA HA HA HA, what a moron.

And he was such a germaphobe that he locked himself in isolation and left the kingdom in complete chaos.

I did have a moment of pity for Anne when she recovered and her father's immediate reaction was, "Now you can go back to the king!" The look on her face...it really hit her then that she was really was her family's cash cow.

[AryasMum]

On 12/31/2019 at 2:18 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Overall I agree about both movies, but when I compare them to the horrid adaptations based on the hack Phillipa Gregory books, they’re practically Oscaresque!🤪😄😄 The Golden Age was nothing but soap opera trash. I don’t know what possessed Cate to agree to do it.

But Elizabeth had a great cast! Along with Cate, James and Geoffrey Rush were amazing.

I don’t know about you, @psychoticstate, but the ending reminded me of the end of The Godfather, where Michael cleaned house, killing all his enemies!

I love when the Duke of Norfolk, arrested for treason, shouts his title to Walsingham. 
 

Walsingham’s response:  “You were Norfolk.  The dead have no titles”.  

[AryasMum]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:22 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Agreed.  I think the second season was the best and probably most accurate.

Spot on.  They really upped the mean girl factor with her, thought supposedly there were tensions between her and Mary, or so I read somewhere.  She would have been more sympathetic if they had let Meyers into an old fat man making her crappy choices a bit more understandable albeit stupid, but whatever.

I did like Joely Richardson as Catherine Parr, but really hate how people always call her the "survivor" of Henry VIII.  Yeah, she outlived him, but there was no happy ending for her, marrying that asshole pervert Thomas Seymour who then proceeded to try and shag Elizabeth while she was living under her room and died in childbirth.

In a way I don’t feel for Parr regarding her final husband.  From what I’ve read, rather than protecting the young Elizabeth, Catherine was known to occasionally partake in Seymour’s inappropriate treatment of her. And finally, rather than protecting the young girl, Parr sent her away out of jealousy.
 

Some historians believe that this period of Elizabeth’s life caused life-long damage. That says a lot for a girl that already had her mother’s head chopped off, as well as experiencing being rejected by her father and disinherited by her brother. 
 

 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, AryasMum said:

In a way I don’t feel for Parr regarding her final husband.  From what I’ve read, rather than protecting the young Elizabeth, Catherine was known to occasionally partake in Seymour’s inappropriate treatment of her. And finally, rather than protecting the young girl, Parr sent her away out of jealousy.
 

Some historians believe that this period of Elizabeth’s life caused life-long damage. That says a lot for a girl that already had her mother’s head chopped off, as well as experiencing being rejected by her father and disinherited by her brother. 
 

 

I don’t think that’s what happened. 
 

Given what we know of Katherine Parr, she likely didn’t see right away Thomas’ inappropriate behavior. He played it off as innocent horse play- where by Katherine participated because they were a family teasing each other.

When she realized that Thomas was being inappropriate (and what in the 21st century we would call “grooming”), she didn’t send Elizabeth away out of jealousy, she sent her away to get her away from her ABUSER and out of the situation. Heaven forbid Thomas raped Elizabeth- Katherine couldn’t have done anything, Thomas was her husband and legally controlled her, he could claim Katherine was insane, take her money, control her communications etc and the damage was done. Also Katherine was pregnant, she didn’t know how the pregnancy/delivery would go, if she would be very sick or die (which she did), best to Elizabeth away from the situation while she still had her health and sway with Thomas and before unrepairable damage was done. 
 

Even in the 20th century I have known of situations where a young girl was sent to live with relatives to get her away from an abusive situation (like a step father who was being inappropriate, but for whatever reason getting rid of him wasn’t easy*). I can certainly see a 16th century woman doing the same thing. 
 

It’s not like Katherine had the option of locking Thomas out of the house and calling child protective services for him to be arrested for molesting a minor (in that era Elizabeth wasn’t a minor in the marriageable sense- girls were marriageable at the age of 12). 

*of course I believe the abuser should be thrown out before the victim, but often the abuser is the one with the financial and social power. At least getting the kid away is doing SOMETHING to protect them until the abuser can be dealt with. 

[vadare]

I have read and appreciated everyone's opinions. I wanted to throw in a few of my own.

1. For what must be the first time in a long time, I have no complaints about anyone in the cast. Some performances I enjoyed more than others, but I thought all of them were spot on.

2. The character I loved to hate the most was Mr. Boleyn. As mentioned by someone else above, I felt a little bit sorry for Anne both when he celebrated her recovery from The Sweats with, "It will be just like before!" & later, when he left The Tower, saw Anne in the window, and turned his back to her. I haven't wanted to throw something at a TV that badly since Jax drugged Wendy. And I love the way Superman tried to knock some sense into him with, "Your son was beheaded yesterday. Your daughter will be tomorrow. And your big concern is 'I get to keep my earldom'?"

3. I am a big fan of Thomas More. How big? When I converted to Catholicism, I chose Thomas as my confirmation name...and I'm a girl. So before I started watching this, I had to know who was playing him first. When I saw it was Jeremy Northam, I was relieved. He did not disappoint. The two scenes that both tear (as in rip) and tear (as in make my eyes water) me up are when he offers his resignation as Chancellor and when his wife & daughter come visit him in The Tower.

To me, the resignation scene has all the elements of a break-up-of-a-long-marriage scene: Henry being the one who wants out & Thomas being the one who badly wants to reconcile. The only difference being Henry is the one who cheated.

With the visit of his family scene, the way he begs them not to abandon him because he would then feel all the more alone just shatters my heart into a million pieces. And the way he tries so desperately to comfort his wife when she admits she's just scared...😢

And yes, I cried during his execution scene. Henry could've stopped it; he was just being an ass.

I gotta admit, the show jumps the shark for me after Season 2. Catherine's dead, More's dead, and Anne's finally out of the picture. Who cares about the rest of them? But I guess I should at least watch Cromwell's execution.

(A brief wade into the shallow end...I should probably go to confession for all the times I caught myself lusting after a saint because he was being played by Jeremy Northam.)

[libgirl2]

On 7/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think that’s what happened. 
 

Given what we know of Katherine Parr, she likely didn’t see right away Thomas’ inappropriate behavior. He played it off as innocent horse play- where by Katherine participated because they were a family teasing each other.

When she realized that Thomas was being inappropriate (and what in the 21st century we would call “grooming”), she didn’t send Elizabeth away out of jealousy, she sent her away to get her away from her ABUSER and out of the situation. Heaven forbid Thomas raped Elizabeth- Katherine couldn’t have done anything, Thomas was her husband and legally controlled her, he could claim Katherine was insane, take her money, control her communications etc and the damage was done. Also Katherine was pregnant, she didn’t know how the pregnancy/delivery would go, if she would be very sick or die (which she did), best to Elizabeth away from the situation while she still had her health and sway with Thomas and before unrepairable damage was done. 
 

Even in the 20th century I have known of situations where a young girl was sent to live with relatives to get her away from an abusive situation (like a step father who was being inappropriate, but for whatever reason getting rid of him wasn’t easy*). I can certainly see a 16th century woman doing the same thing. 
 

It’s not like Katherine had the option of locking Thomas out of the house and calling child protective services for him to be arrested for molesting a minor (in that era Elizabeth wasn’t a minor in the marriageable sense- girls were marriageable at the age of 12). 

*of course I believe the abuser should be thrown out before the victim, but often the abuser is the one with the financial and social power. At least getting the kid away is doing SOMETHING to protect them until the abuser can be dealt with. 

I always wondered about it. I think for the first time, Katherine was married to a man of her choosing and was happy beyond belief. I think she indulged him, thinking it was all innocent, when maybe in the back of her mind part of her wondered about it, but so besotted was she that she couldn't admit it to herself. I also think she took part in some incidents because maybe a part of her figured she could make it seem like "just fun" and not anything more. Perhaps this was subconsciously?

When it finally hit her and she knew just what he was up to, I don't think she sent Elizabeth away in anger or to get her away from her abuser, I think she sent Elizabeth away to protect her marriage and soon to be born baby. And she probably also saw it as the best solution for Elizabeth before something ruined her.