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S04.E05: Chapter Sixty-Two: Witness for the Prosecution

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Caught between Hiram and Hermione's double trial, Veronica grapples with what the future holds for her family. Archie finds himself the unexpected target of the town’s local businesses. Betty and Kevin join the Junior FBI Training Program, and Jughead learns some surprising information about his family history.

Airdate: Wednesday, November 6, 2019

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Once again I want to reiterate how I believe Riverdale benefits when it leans into the Dark Betty one bad day away from killing everyone storyline.   I really like her as a jr student in the FBI and that she doesn’t believe brother Charles for a minute.

of course the guy bother Archie and his club is named Dodger.  What else would he be named?  And of course Hiram would have another sneakier daughter that Veronica knew nothing about.

Dud I miss something?  Why would any highschool even a rich 1% one give out an assignment where you plan a perfect murder?  Rich people.  They really are different.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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The show has to tell some story and Riverdale is a dark drama.  What other story do they tell?  Hiram has Archie arrested for  the fifth time?   The Dark Betty story makes sense In the framework of the series.   I mean Betty doesn’t actually have to be a serial killer.   She could do like brother Charles says and will ultimately fail to do and find ways to focus her darkness but for me that darkness is one of the few interesting stories left on the show.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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So, of course, Veronica ends up having a half-sister, who is totally on Team Hiram and helps get him exonerated!  This show sure does love the secret sibling/cousin/relative thing!  And now Hiram is out and about and gearing for a mayoral run!  Hey, on this show, I think his chances are pretty good!

Got to love Archie basically being all "Come after me, and you will have to deal with my mommy lawyer and BFF's dad sheriff!" during his grand speech.  Yep, he's just leaning right into how he's lucky he knows all of the important people in the town.  He should have just gone all in and said "And if you really get on my bad side, I might even be willing to align myself with my girlfriend's mobster father again!"  Normally I would have found all of that annoyingly arrogant, but since its Archie, I was just "Aww, you silly kid!" instead.

Are the Baxter Boys series suppose to be a knock-off of the Hardy Boys?  Either way, I'm sure all of this is going to lead to whatever is going on with Jughead's "murder."

Betty now knows she has the "serial killer" genes in her, so she worries that she will go off the reservation.  At this point, I'm hoping they just go full-blown Dexter her and have Hal show up inside her head as the "Dark Passenger"/James Remar character.  But, hey, Charles has it too!

I see even this show decided there needed to be at least one break from the Cheryl/Toni/Jason's corpse crazy train.

Reggie might not have had any lines, but Charles Melton's "WTF?!" reaction at the end slayed me.

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Archie failing at being a crime fighter

OMG I laughed so so hard. The other best bit was Ronnie emphasizing Governor Dooley's first name, Donald.

Well, this one went a fast little trot, didn't it? Nice to see Kevin at least existing outside the Farm crap--he and Betty really have a nice chemistry when the show remembers they know each other. And him calmly telling her that her memories of Caramel doesn't mean she's a killer was quite nice. I'm on record with my fury/weariness about this whole "genes" storyline so I won't get into it again, and if it finally leads us back to Solve A Case Betty I'll forgive a lot. But not everything.

OF COURSE Hiram has another daughter (from Miami, where he is not from because his last name was supposedly the kiss of death here in Riverdale!) and she's totally under Be Daddy's Best Daughter spell, gah. Talk about bad genes, although I assume by the end of the season we'll be seeing her switch teams and use her PI skills to help with Jughead's elaborate murder plot. 

Speaking of shitty genes, I would like to know where Archie inherited his hard head and inability to not do the stupidest thing possible at all times. FP stops by with actual good advice to get to know the store owners? Let's turn that into a threat-filled press conference while being the only sentient being with a brain stem to not grasp that --gasp!--Dodger's behind it all! That same Dodger you've already threatened who hung out at last week's Halloween party threatening kids with guns? Whoda thunk it? 

Poor Molly Ringwald had to say Tucchi Bag not once, but twice. Is Attorney McCoy not working anymore or something? Where the hell are Kevin's parents, anyway?

I really must compliment the actor playing Brett--he has perfected Punchable Face. Everytime I see that smirking entitled mug of his I want to paste him in the chops.

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34 minutes ago, Snookums said:

he and Betty really have a nice chemistry when the show remembers they know each other

Word. Hopefully we can get more scenes with characters who rarely interact in the future. It would help this show not seem so been there, done that. Come through, Jughead’s fanfic! 💅🏼

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My favorite Betty is Camgirl Betty, let's see her use those skills she learned from her movie.

The girls need to hold up their end of the show, by appearing without clothes.

These are the names of the students who are pictured in the yearbook. Are any names puns of famous writers?

Theodore Weisel

Francis Dupont Jr.

Forythe Jones

Jane Dallas = Austen/Austin, Texas

Charles Chickens = Dickens

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i always thought the Dark Betty Story has a lot of potential but during season 1 the show was stupid about it by flopping a wig on her and having her give lap dances.   That is a male fantasy of dark women.   Later the show course corrected and gave Betty a real back story of a deeply damaged family and the emotional tole it had on her.   That is the kind of darkness I can get behind.    The question other shows ask about darkness?   How does it grow? You feed it.   How does Betty resist feeding her darkness when there are so many Riverdale assholes?   That would be an interesting story.

Just avoid the wig and lap dances.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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I absolutely fast forwarded through the dead kitten scene so I have no idea what kind of conversation transpired. Nope, show, I didn't expect you to have a dead pet storyline and I hate being caught off guard like that. 

What a mediocre episode. I mean, I didn't hate it, but I didn't feel like anything happened, even though stuff did.

LOL at Veronica having a half sister. It's funny how, since Hiram couldn't get his favourite daughter to be on his side, he had to settle with some other daughter that lived in Florida who he obviously couldn't care less about because he still wants Veronica on his side. It's funny how Veronica's half sister thinks that her Daddy loves her soooooo much when it apparently took him this long to ask for her help, and only after Veronica turned him in. 

I won't be feeling sorry for her when Hiram betrays her for Veronica.

Archie's vigilante stuff is laughable. Yes, Archie, it's no surprise that Dodger is behind all of this. Maybe, don't give Dodger a chance to retaliate and just...y'know, beat him up. This isn't going to go well for Archie. I do like Archie, but I think I preferred his stuff last season to his stuff this season. 

Nice to see Mary, though. Hi, you still exist!

The Jughead stuff is marginally more interesting, but only because it's clear that the flashforward stuff is Jughead's Perfect Murder. FP couldn't sound less scripted when he was "arresting" Archie, Veronica, and Betty. He sounded like he was reading a cue card, so at least it seems like they're not actively trying to make the audience think that Jughead is actually dead. Or they're really bad at it. 

Imagine the flashforward stuff is not even real and it's all in Jughead's book. Which is really feels like they're going that route. 

The serial killer gene stuff is actually grating on my nerves. I don't mind Dark Betty that much but if I have to hear them utter the phrase one more time....

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18 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think I preferred his stuff last season to his stuff this season. 

I love the idea that he wants to make his dad proud, but I wish they went about it in a different way. Fred would never approve of this vigilante shit. Archie’s dream was music and Fred came around to that and supported it. Why was this forgotten? 

18 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Imagine the flashforward stuff is not even real and it's all in Jughead's book. Which is really feels like they're going that route. 

This is possible, but then I’m also thinking it may be too obvious after the episode. Is it a red herring? 

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Just now, HeatLifer said:

This is possible, but then I’m also thinking it may be too obvious after the episode. Is it a red herring? 

Maybe, but how else are they going to write around Jughead's dead body being shown onscreen if it's NOT some sort of fantasy/scene from his book? We know Jughead absolutely isn't dead, they have this Perfect Murder set-up, so I'd rather them take this out than try convoluted ways to write around the issue they created for themselves not even two episodes ago.

4 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

This is possible, but then I’m also thinking it may be too obvious after the episode. Is it a red herring? 

Same here. I wish they JUST had the community centre stuff without the vigilantism behind it. I wish I could tell the show "hey, it's alright for Archie to NOT be a vigilante on top of trying to run a community centre. He doesn't need to do both!" The community centre stuff itself is actually pretty great, but factor in Archie playing Vigilante again and it's just overkill and takes away from the good that he's trying to do. 

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1 minute ago, Star Gazer said:

Or maybe it’s not Jugheads version of the book murder plot, maybe it’s one of his classmates writing their perfect murder that includes Jughead and his friends? 

Plot Twist: this is Brett's Perfect Murder. 

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8 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

My favorite Betty is Camgirl Betty, let's see her use those skills she learned from her movie.

The girls need to hold up their end of the show, by appearing without clothes.

These are the names of the students who are pictured in the yearbook. Are any names puns of famous writers?

Theodore Weisel

Francis Dupont Jr.

Forythe Jones

Jane Dallas = Austen/Austin, Texas

Charles Chickens = Dickens

Theodore Geisel was Dr Seuss’s real name.

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1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe, but how else are they going to write around Jughead's dead body being shown onscreen if it's NOT some sort of fantasy/scene from his book? We know Jughead absolutely isn't dead, they have this Perfect Murder set-up, so I'd rather them take this out than try convoluted ways to write around the issue they created for themselves not even two episodes ago.

Same here. I wish they JUST had the community centre stuff without the vigilantism behind it. I wish I could tell the show "hey, it's alright for Archie to NOT be a vigilante on top of trying to run a community centre. He doesn't need to do both!" The community centre stuff itself is actually pretty great, but factor in Archie playing Vigilante again and it's just overkill and takes away from the good that he's trying to do. 

I haven’t let go of Jughead having a doppelgänger. 🧐

And what happened to Fred’s construction company? They could have had Archie take over that possibly.  Or maybe try to but then realize Fred would have wanted him to pursue his own happiness. And that Veronica is OK with Archie doing this superhero schtick is laughable. 

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6 minutes ago, Star Gazer said:

I hope Jughead doesn’t have a doppelgänger.

I’m just spitballing other possible ideas. All the flash forwards could be fake and it’s just Jughead reading back his book to his friends but eh... not convinced yet.

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Maybe, but how else are they going to write around Jughead's dead body being shown onscreen if it's NOT some sort of fantasy/scene from his book? We know Jughead absolutely isn't dead, they have this Perfect Murder set-up, so I'd rather them take this out than try convoluted ways to write around the issue they created for themselves not even two episodes ago.

I agree! Not everything has to be a plot twist--it's okay to stick to this and make it interesting. I do like the ideas of this being Brett's version, or Jug's double (they're leaning HAAARD on long lost siblings and twins and such this season and Lord knows, this show doesn't really do subtle,) but really, just because we picked up what you've been throwing down doesn't mean you've got to change horses midstream again, writers. 

As for Hiram, I am as deeply weary of his Battle Against The Teens as everybody else, but now that they are focusing on him and Archie way less and him and Veronica more, at least it's starting to be...less...creepy? is the word, I guess? He's still a villain and Consuelos is having a ball painting in the big broad strokes, but it makes a helluva lot more sense for him to be focusing his hurt fee-fee rages against Ronnie, given their messed up history, than it ever did against Dopey Puppy Archie.

Plus, the whole "Everybody's out of prison [again] and by the way you've got a sinister half-sister!" thing is pure soap opera and takes me back to my Days Of Our Lives salad days, when I was unhealthily invested in Steve and Kayla's relationship, so that can't be all bad.

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9 minutes ago, Snookums said:

this being Brett's version,

Or maybe it’s his or Jug’s fiction that bled into reality & the arrest was to make Brett believe he’s in the clear...

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I'm calling it now, Jughead's grandpa was one of the ghostwriters or even the originator of those baxter brothers books but it was 'stolen' from him and that's why he wrote to Jughead "never let take them anything from you"! 🙂

I actually liked this episode. It wasn't fireworks but  it was enjoyable.

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I gotta give the actor who plays Brett a ton of credit, the guy has the smuggest, most punchable face in the world. Every second he is on screen he just oozes smug entitlement. That combined with Jughead and his often pretentiousness and hair trigger temper, they make for a powder keg that is constantly seconds from going off.  

Archie means well, but his follow through is, well, like what you can imagine a hard headed teenage boys response would be. Dress up in a silly costume and try to beat people up! Hold a big press conference where he basically tells everyone "get on my side or shut it, this is my town bitches!"

Holy crap this prep school is obsessed with killing people! No wonder they use locking someone in a coffin as a hazing ritual. Are we thinking...murder cult? Worshiping an elder god of murder? I am still concerned about poor Moose, no way did he just happily skip off to the army. The flash-forwards are definitely a part of Jugheads perfect murder assignment.

I dont buy at all that Betty is really a serial killer or has serial killer genes or whatever. If thats the case, then half the town is probably five seconds from a crime spree...which is probably true, but its still not something she should obsess about too much. I am really glad though that Betty has started to suspect Charles, and the stuff with her and Kevin was actually pretty good. Now that he is finally gone from that farm mess, I can start to enjoy their nice friendship chemistry again, like when he told her that killing poor sweet Caramel was on her dad, and not her. But, no more cat killing, ok? I dont need that in my crazy Riverdale. But shit, is this guy is another fake Charles, how many fake brothers does Betty freaking have?!? Does the real one even exist, or was Alice hallucinating the whole thing and just had a pillow under her shirt for several months? 

So Hiram has another daughter! Everyone gets a new, sketchy sibling! And its Emma from Vida! Wild to see her here, but she looks great, even if she is bad news. For now at least, I can see her going to Veronica's side when she realizes that Hiram isnt much of a dad. Also, Hiram as the mayor? Exonerated or not, everyone knows that this guy is a mob boss still. But this IS Riverdale!

I wish someone else would build a rocketship. 

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On 11/6/2019 at 9:04 PM, Star Gazer said:

The gang kid asking what happen when Archie graduates because months away comes up fast.

I loved that that random kid was trying to explain to him that six months is a short amount of time and he can't just count on someone who doesn't have a longer plan than that. His choices for a role model right now are: "kind but dumb," "mean but stable," and "Mad Dog doesn't get any lines."

On 11/6/2019 at 9:08 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Once again I want to reiterate how I believe Riverdale benefits when it leans into the Dark Betty one bad day away from killing everyone storyline.   I really like her as a jr student in the FBI and that she doesn’t believe brother Charles for a minute.

I love how Charles tried to comfort her by saying, "I have the genes too, and I'm not a bad person," and her takeaway message was, "Charles is a serial killer, too."

I don't love that this show is trying to tell people that your genes can give you "dark urges" that drive you to crime. That's kind of... not how genes work and not how crime works.

On 11/6/2019 at 10:53 PM, MollyWebber said:

Calling it now, this is Jughead's "perfect murder" and I'm here for it. And his friends and family are in on it. There's no way Betty and FP would be reacting so controlled.

I like to think Jughead gave him stage directions like, "Just pretend you don't care, and then everyone will buy it."

On 11/6/2019 at 11:14 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Got to love Archie basically being all "Come after me, and you will have to deal with my mommy lawyer and BFF's dad sheriff!" during his grand speech.  Yep, he's just leaning right into how he's lucky he knows all of the important people in the town.  He should have just gone all in and said "And if you really get on my bad side, I might even be willing to align myself with my girlfriend's mobster father again!"  Normally I would have found all of that annoyingly arrogant, but since its Archie, I was just "Aww, you silly kid!" instead.

Or he could have said "I am the bat man," or something, 'cause he hits stuff with his bat.

But, seriously, I thought it was funny that FP told him to reach out to the community and make friends, and his response was to threaten everyone.

On 11/7/2019 at 10:03 AM, Lady Calypso said:

LOL at Veronica having a half sister. It's funny how, since Hiram couldn't get his favourite daughter to be on his side, he had to settle with some other daughter that lived in Florida who he obviously couldn't care less about...

Yeah, I think it's a Tiffany Trump joke but, knowing this show, I'm not sure.

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On 11/7/2019 at 10:32 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Plot Twist: this is Brett's Perfect Murder. 

I like that idea, because Brett would love to kill Jughead, I'm sure.  But I think it has to be Jughead's because it's all Jughead's friends.  How would Brett know Betty, Veronica, and Archie?  Write what you know.

The prep school doesn't fit Jughead's character somehow.  I don't see him at a highbrow party of intellectuals playing a who's the murder mystery game.  Doesn't suit him.  We know he probably becomes a writer though, so maybe I'm wrong.  But it also takes him away from Betty, which is not so good for the show.  Hopefully it's not the beginnings of a breakup.

Speaking of Betty, I was pretty unhappy with her for killing her cat, until it was revealed that her psycho dad made her do it, plus it was a mercy killing.

Didn't care much about Archie's superhero exploits or Veronica's parents.  Hiram's out of jail and running for mayor, so I guess it accomplished that.

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