S02.E05: Deathstroke

[MarkHB]

Quote

With the team in upheaval, the Titans do everything in their power to save Jason’s life. But when Deathstroke demands they turn over Rose, the dilemma threatens to tear the team apart.

[Primal Slayer]

I enjoyed the episode until the end...I am tired of each episode being a cliff hanger, this whole Jason plot has dragged on for 3 weeks now...i'd like to finish it up especially if this doesnt result in dying.

The fight with Deathstroke vs. Dick/Kory was very well done. Not exactly sure how Korys powers let her instantly burn bullets to dust but doesnt burn Deathstroke.....but whatever. 

Rose vs. Raven was fun and Rose's instahealing was creepy as hell to watch. 

I'm kind of over Hanks angst every episode with Dawn having to comfort him.

Last but not least...really ready for everyone to start suiting up!

[Sakura12]

Superboy is probably going to catch Jason. I'm assuming that since we are half through the season and we haven't seen him yet. 

Finally a fight scene that wasn't just martial arts. They must've been saving their budget for Kory to use her powers to fight Deathstroke. Although in typical tv land magic her fire powers only burn when they want it to otherwise it fizzles out and does no damage. 

Are Hank and Dawn going to angst every week and hug it out? That's basically been their screentime this season. 

I liked the Kory and Donna talk and the Rachel and Kory talk but these people have to start telling everyone their issues not just one person. Kory telling Donna about her being a princess and Rachel telling Kory about losing control of her powers. 

That's some painful regeneration powers Rose has. 

[Jenniferbug]

I had to go into the office this morning for a meeting and was mad about it because I wanted to watch Titans this morning when it dropped!

I liked this episode but not as much as previous ones. I was in genuine suspense for Jason and honestly expected that to be a lot more gory than it was. I was braced for some brutal torture but all he really did was cut his tracker out. I was working while watching though so I honestly may have missed other scenes. 

I liked seeing how the OG Titans were handling the situation and stressed about it, but also trying to protect the kids. I was team Hawk in throwing Rose to Deathstroke. I like his relationship with Jason- he's annoyed by him, but also relates to him. 

Kory showing up was awesome and the fight with her, Dick, and Deathstroke was pretty cool. I also like that Deathstroke isn't totally off base about Dick- he is training kids for what he believes to be good reasons but that's definitely problematic. Perpetuating the cycle he grew up in, I guess. 

I'm pretty sure Conner is going to save Jason because it's about time he showed up. However, Donna and Kory can both fly (in comics but not shown on show) so one of them could grab him too.

Has a season 3 been announced yet? Seems like Kory's story and Raven's story could potentially carry over to next season. 

[phoenics]

OH MY GAWD!!!! That was the best episode this show has EVER had.

Cheese and crackers that was good. I may have watched this episode 5 times by now.

LOVES:

• KORY!!! OMG the voice of reason, the stand-in for those of us screaming "you can't trade rose!! WTF are you thinking?" I loved her chats with Raven - but I'm a little sad she didn't get more of one with Gar - or one at all really. He's suffering too. And just as I was thinking she missed the giant, glaring "I'm sacrificing myself" speech to her at the end right before complimenting her hair (ha!), she shows up at the end to save Dick from himself. Honestly - how the hell was this team even functioning before she got there? I'm loving her as the moral center, the true north of the team. That fits Starfire to a T. Anna Diop was the standout of this episode - every scene she touched came to life.
• THAT BADASS Deathstroke X Kory X Dick fight! OMG I was screaming at the top of my lungs. What a moment! Damn! That whole thing was awesome. I must have watched that whole sequence like 10 times by now. That was soooooo good. Plus I've been waiting since S1 for Kory to be in another hand to hand combat fight and her fight with Deathstroke was no exception. That and I honestly couldn't tell when they switched from stunt double to Anna and back. I kept hoping that big stick Dick had got sliced in half tho, lol. And WHAT THE HELL? Kory can deflect bullets!!?!? So awesome.
• Jason Todd must be protected at all costs: I know some are certain Jason won't die - but I'm not and I was terrified for him that whole sequence. At the end when he fell... omg I was screaming "Noooooooo!!!!!!" right along with Dick. I don't want Jason to die - I LOVE Jason! Yes he's annoying and he goes off half-cocked - but he's got spirit where it counts. "Who you calling a f**cking sidekick a@@hole!" Never change, Jason, lol.
• Deathstroke is such good villain. Esai is killing it in this role. Just murkin it. The whole deliberate movement, slow and calculating... chills.
• Hank. I love this character when he's complex and layered. Tonight we got all of those layers. And that scared kid he is inside - that pain from his past haunting him? That kid was still there in the Aqualad episode, or it should have been, but in that episode, I still believe they neutered Hank. I felt he was more in character this episode - not because he was angry - but because we got to understand why he was reacting the way he did to Jason being taken. We got to go through the highs and lows with him.  He wasn't flat like in the flashback.
• The pacing this episode was much better - it was flawless really.
• All the action this episode - well done. Seems like everyone got some action, except Gar, Conor and Dawn. But Rachel x Rose? Damn Rachel - I didn't expect you to pop off like that. That was brutal. Then Rose "reconstructing" like that was so creepy good. And Hank/Rose? Yes! More of this. More action!
• THE MUSIC: Did ya'll notice that the music from Nightwing x Deathstroke's fight right before he set off that green bomb was the same music from The Dark Knight Returns? It's the same beat and cadence, with some accompaniment (and that chant) left out. I really hope they play that as Nightwing's theme. It's sick as hell.

Stuff I'm "meh" on:

• My inability to come up with better adjectives than amazing, awesome and badass, lol.

Stuff I'm irritated about:

• Why can't Gar get some action? A real story? They can do Raven effects, but Gar is limited to a tiger? And the one chance for him to use powers to snoop they have him pull a Cisco/Felicity instead? And can we get a real storyline for Gar - and not him tagging along for the ride with another character. A storyline CENTERING Gar! *growls at writers*

Clarifications/Questions:

• Whose helicopter is that? Slade's? Batman's? Cadmus' looking for Connor?
• So this episode reminded me that the Titans thought Deathstroke was dead. So I guess they didn't break up because of some tacit or implicit agreement with him then.

[Sakura12]

They probably don't have the budget for flying so we won't see any of them fly. I'm glad Kory finally had a fight scene. Now I need Donna to have one, she's an Amazon warrior and all they have her do is use her lasso. If they want to kill Deathstoke have Donna, Kory and Raven go after him.

[phoenics]

41 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They probably don't have the budget for flying so we won't see any of them fly. I'm glad Kory finally had a fight scene. Now I need Donna to have one, she's an Amazon warrior and they have her do is use her lasso. If they want to kill Deathstoke have Donna, Kory and Raven go after him.

I would pay money to see that - which is probably why it will never happen - especially not on the "Nightwing masquerading as The Titans" show.

[Cthulhudrew]

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm kind of over Hanks angst every episode with Dawn having to comfort him.

When he was talking about how he would always have Jason's back even though he makes him want to punch him, I was hoping Dawn would say "I feel the same about you." 

The Deathstroke fight scene was pretty cool (even though I disagree with Dick; I preferred Kory's hairstyle last season). I think it was awesome seeing Kory kick butt- makes sense with her powers and warrior background that she'd be a good opponent for Slade. 

I was thinking Kory would end up flying and catching Jason, but I think the rest of you are right that it will be Connor (a bit random). Maybe it will be Krypto?

This show still needs to work on its pacing; throwing in entire episode flashbacks in between major cliffhangers- and then referring in mysterious terms to things they still haven't flashed back to (likely Jerich becoming a Titan and then dying? Being crippled?) is a bit erratic. 

ETA: Awesome that they acknowledge Kory should be the leader. She really takes charge of any scene she's in, and even Dick recognized it immediately.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[Jenniferbug]

So I rewatched and noticed a couple of things. 

How did I not catch that Jason dislocated his thumbs to get free? That's pretty hardcore. 

Is Batman's identity known? Gar casually name drops Bruce Wayne to Rose, which seems like information that should be secret since she's not really one of them yet. 

Also it occured to me that Dick really didn't have a lot of options but to restart the Titans. He's maybe 30 year old, and he suddenly finds himself guardian of a part demon girl and a boy who can turn into creatures. They're not really candidates for foster care or some sort of teen home. I doubt he has legal guardianship of them so enrolling them in school, etc isn't an option. And then Bruce also dumps (temporary?) guardianship of Jason on him. I don't know what else he can do with them but train them (though a little home schooling wouldn't be a bad thing, Dick, just sayin'). 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Jenniferbug
Phone autocorrected Gar to Gary

[Primal Slayer]

45 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

SIs Batman's identity known? Gar casually name drops Bruce Wayne to Rose, which seems like information that should be secret since she's not really one of them yet. 

Secret Identities in this show dont seem to be that big of a deal, the Titans just show up in casual wear and take care of business.

They need to find out what they want to do with Gar....I like the actor who plays him but he's being wasted to say the least. We're halfway through the season and not even 1 morph. Just get rid of him if you cant give him anything to work with....and then recast the actor as Tim Drake.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

So I rewatched and noticed a couple of things. 

How did I not catch that Jason dislocated his thumbs to get free? That's pretty hardcore. 

Is Batman's identity known? Gar casually name drops Bruce Wayne to Rose, which seems like information that should be secret since she's not really one of them yet. 

Also it occured to me that Dick really didn't have a lot of options but to restart the Titans. He's maybe 30 year old, and he suddenly finds himself guardian of a part demon girl and a boy who can turn into creatures. They're not really candidates for foster care or some sort of teen home. I doubt he has legal guardianship of them so enrolling them in school, etc isn't an option. And then Bruce also dumps (temporary?) guardianship of Jason on him. I don't know what else he can do with them but train them (though a little home schooling wouldn't be a bad thing, Dick, just sayin'). 

I agree with this.  I feel like the OG Titans are being way too hard on Dick (though admittedly I don't know what happened with Jericho).  One minute Dawn tells Dick to be Batman but then she turns on him when that's too much dark for her.  And then tonight - she demands he disband Titans 2.0.  She's kinda preaching separate and split up when Rachel and Gar really have no one without Dick and Kory.  I understand she thinks it's the formation of the Titans that brought out the bad but that's unfair.  Contrast that with Kory, who last season told Dick that "no one can do it alone" and then tonight she proved it...

Dawn's words led to Dick feeling like he had to do it alone - which is why he didn't ask Kory for help - or anyone for help - and decided to sacrifice himself instead.

Kory realized what he was going to do and went ride or die for him instead, showing him that they can't do this alone - they all need each other.

Eventually I think the OGs will come around.

[Sakura12]

Dawn told Dick to be Batman 5 years ago and whatever happened when he tried to be Batman, they failed miserably and disbanded the Titans because of it. I don't consider that her changing her mind after a minute, that was years ago. And Dick still hasn't learned anything from it. I also don't think Dawn means for him to abandon the kids, we've seen that Bruce has other safe houses they can stay at and not be Titans. I think it's the same reason they are not wearing their costumes. They are not the Titans and wearing their costumes will make it seem like they are. However they should be wearing armor or stealth clothes and bring weapons with them. 

I don't think they are being hard enough on Dick. He thinks he can just start over with the Titans and pretend nothing happened before. He needs to tell the kids he took in and is training the mistakes that were made before so they don't repeat them. Let them know what they are getting into. Also if he wants them to be Titans he should be including them in what he's doing. He's still being Batman and trying to handle everything himself when he has a team. I fully expect Donna to yell at him next week about trying to sacrifice himself instead of working as team. If he wants to separate himself from Batman he needs to stop acting like him. If Kory had all the information she'd probably agree that he needs to be honest with Rachel, Gar, Jason and Rose. 

I'd rather have it be Donna that catches Jason either by flying to get him or super speeding, but it will probably be Conner since they've neutered Donna's powers on this show since she's only used her super strength to kick doors and fire hydrants. 

[Cthulhudrew]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree with this.  I feel like the OG Titans are being way too hard on Dick (though admittedly I don't know what happened with Jericho).

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Dawn told Dick to be Batman 5 years ago and whatever happened when he tried to be Batman, they failed miserably and disbanded the Titans because of it. I don't consider that her changing her mind after a minute, that was years ago. And Dick still hasn't learned anything from it. 

These things are part of the problem, in my opinion, with the pacing of how the show splits up the flashbacks with the present the way they have been doing. 

Without knowing the full extent of what exactly happened between the Titans, Deathstroke, and Jericho, it is hard to really feel the gravitas of the angst between the old Titans, and the underlying vendetta of Deathstroke. Similarly, you lose the momentum of the present-day cliffhangers when you have to wait two weeks for the resolution. 

I'm all for a bit of mystery and slow burn when it comes to certain story elements, but these are major story beats that the audience can't fully appreciate with the way they are being strung out.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Dawn told Dick to be Batman 5 years ago and whatever happened when he tried to be Batman, they failed miserably and disbanded the Titans because of it. I don't consider that her changing her mind after a minute, that was years ago.

Except in yesterday's episode, Dawn flip flops on this.  With Dick in the room, she chastises him for starting up Titans and seems to lay the blame at his feet.  But just a few hours earlier, she's telling Hank it's all their faults.  Dawn comes off wishy washy in her interactions a lot on this series.

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think they are being hard enough on Dick. He thinks he can just start over with the Titans and pretend nothing happened before. He needs to tell the kids he took in and is training the mistakes that were made before so they don't repeat them. Let them know what they are getting into.

This I completely agree on.  What I don't agree with the giant "this is all your fault" guilt trip she laid on him as though everything that went wrong was on him for reopening the tower.  Dick is honestly trying to help people.  His heart's in the right place - but he does need to be more open with others.  Hard to do when you're Batman's protege, lol.

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

He's still being Batman and trying to handle everything himself when he has a team.

But see - before that chat with Dawn - he was sharing with the OG Team and taking them with him in all of this stuff with Deathstroke - just not the Titans 2.0.  It wasn't until Dawn came down on him and practically blamed him for Garth's death (which is horribly unfair as that happened before they even knew of Deathstroke) that Dick went into isolation mode and feeling like the only way forward for him was to go solo and sacrifice himself.  It was the only way he could figure out how to "save" everyone and end the bloodfeud with Deathstroke.

Also - her speech doesn't even allow for Dick to have an altruistic reason for Titans 2.0 - he wants to help Rachel, Gar and Jason because they're now like family to him.  No, to her, it could only be Dick being selfish or trying to "paper over the past".

She was being really unfair.

Dawn's "Opening the tower was a mistake - and - how many people have to die for you to realize that" speech led to Dick isolating himself and going for the self sacrifice play.

My point is that Dawn preaches isolation and separation (not only to Dick, but to Hank too) and Kory acts out the opposite.  I think the show was drawing a clear parallel.

The point I hope the show is trying to make is that they can't do this alone - or anything alone and that they're stronger together.  There is a reason they were all in such disarray before Kory showed up.  Somehow she's a unifying factor.

Edited October 5, 2019 by phoenics

[Jenniferbug]

I'm rewatching the first episode with my husband (trying to get him into the show), and I realized that Dick watching Jason fall was likely extra traumatizing for him since he watched his parents die in basically the same way. 

[BaggythePanther]

When Kory first showed up at the Tower my first thought was “Mom’s home”. 

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

The point I hope the show is trying to make is that they can't do this alone - or anything alone and that they're stronger together.  There is a reason they were all in such disarray before Kory showed up.  Somehow she's a unifying factor.

Right now it feels like Kory is the only person trusted by both the young Titans and the OG Titans. Everyone just needs to get on the same page. This isn’t the CW, but it’s still a Berlanti show, so I’m worried everyone will hold on to their secrets for the sake of drama and reveal them at the worst time.

I wish the flashbacks didn’t take up entire episodes. IMO it kills the momentum of the show. I guess splitting the episode between present day and flashbacks would make it too much like Arrow, but there has to be a way to show what happened in the past without detracting from what is happening in the present.

[waving feather]

I don't think Dawn was being fair to Dick in her evaluation of him that he's starting this for the sake of his own ego. Dick can be misguided and doesn't have the best EQ dealing with the kids at times (that's why he needs Kory at his side) but his heart has always been in the right place since the beginning of the show. Rachel wouldn't let him leave her and she and Gar seems like a package deal. I'm not sure why young Robin is sticking around but Dick isn't forcing him by any means. Perhaps he's starting up the Titans because that's the only thing he knows to do with kids who have special abilities. And it's not like people like Rachel can go back to normal life. The only mistake Dick did was bringing Rose into their business. 

[phoenics]

On 10/5/2019 at 10:25 PM, Jenniferbug said:

I'm rewatching the first episode with my husband (trying to get him into the show), and I realized that Dick watching Jason fall was likely extra traumatizing for him since he watched his parents die in basically the same way. 

I just realized that Deathstroke likely planned it that way for exactly that reason.  He wants to break Dick.

[Katsullivan]

On 10/4/2019 at 4:42 PM, phoenics said:

OH MY GAWD!!!! That was the best episode this show has EVER had.

In case anyone was wondering, it was written by Bianca Sams. 

So...

Are we supposed to take Gar's "she's not my girlfriend!" as a shut down of BBRae or as confirmation that it will eventually happen? I tend to get confused over these things. 

[Sakura12]

I think the only thing stopping them from being together is the real life ages of the actors. Teagan Croft (Raven) is 15 and Ryan Potter (Gar) is 24. 

We talk about Gar not getting much, Dawn is barley a character. The Hank and Dawn flashback was mostly about Hank. She gets the screentime but not much character development. We don't really understand her motivation and what she wants. 

For me if they are going to name the episode after the character, that character should get the main focus. Instead they have to share that focus with Dick and Rachel. Only Hank and by association Dawn got their character focused episodes.  Which does make it seem like they wanted a Nightwing show and to spin off to a Hawk and Dove show. 

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Which does make it seem like they wanted a Nightwing show and to spin off to a Hawk and Dove show. 

They do this with almost all of the "name" episodes.  Koriand'r was most definitely not about Kory - we barely got 10 mins focused on her and it was still in service of Raven's plot. 

Same thing with Aqualad - that was mostly about Donna. 

But the Hank and Dawn episode actually did give a lot about Donna - that was episode #2 - and most of the character beats served Donna, and less Hank.  Mostly he just got to be angry a lot, lol.  We learned about Dawn and Dick, and saw Dawn in several scenes with Rachel/Dick or both.  But in Hawk and Dove, we did get more about Hank then - but that's also because Hawk and Dove started with Hank, not Dawn.  She was Dove #2.  But even with that, we still know a fair amount about Dawn as she still got two episodes to be introduced to us.  We even got to see Dawn's mother and learn about their estranged relationship.  We even saw her in group therapy after what happened to her mother (along with Don).  We also saw her have a whole ass relationship with Hank.

About us not knowing what Dawn wants - I think it's to go off with Hank back to their lives.  She's said it more than once over the past few episodes.  It's Hank who wants to fight with the Titans.  Dawn doesn't - though she does clearly still want to fight - just not as a Titan.  If you mean what Dawn wants romantically - well I don't think that's even a question.  She's with Hank and can't seem to think a good thing about Dick to save her life, so... *shrugs*  Maybe that's just over.

After nearly a season and a half, all we know about Kory is that she's royal, next in line for her planet's throne, has a sister, and came to earth to kill Rachel.  Anna Diop's billing outranks Minka Kelly's, but Minka has gotten far deeper character background in Dawn than Kory has.  I'm hoping the rest of the season firmly establishes Anna's status.  I'm tired of having black women actresses constantly having to scrap for their status on shows where they are billed as female lead.  Even Minka's "with" status still doesn't outstrip female lead status. But sometimes it didn't feel like it with the way the show was written.

Further, was there even an episode called Gar?  Or Beastboy?  Gar has gotten like 5 minutes (when you add up those hospital scenes that's what it comes out to) of development.  We still don't know about anything else with him except where it crosses with Doom Patrol.

I do agree that it feels like the writers really wanted a Nightwing show.  Honestly that would be boring - Nightwing isn't the best solo character, imo.  I feel he's best with the Titans.  And I do think that they were going for a Hawk and Dove spinoff - I've heard that's still on the table.  My advice to the show is to go ahead with the spinoff.  I don't mind Hank and love him when he's flipping between cranky and lovable, but Dawn... sigh.  I think it's because I almost feel like I'm being manipulated to read Dawn as nice, but then she's so judgmental and hits below the belt ("maybe you're just selfish or maybe you wanted to paper over the past with your new experiment...") but she does it with the super soft voice that I'm confused, lol.

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

In case anyone was wondering, it was written by Bianca Sams. 

So...

I heard it was the first episode she ever wrote?  She's amazing - they need to give her all the episodes to write, lol.  What a meaty episode to give a first time writer on the show.  She knocked it out of the park too.  And I have to say it - did it take a black woman writing on this show for Kory to finally get the shine she deserved?

All the characters felt "right" in this episode - except maybe Dawn, who came off as fairly judgmental, imo.  Maybe she was supposed to. She has been doing the hypocrite stuff this season.

Edited October 8, 2019 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

I don't know last season Dawn still seemed into Dick. She was thinking about him after Hank had trouble satisfying her. I have no interest as them as a couple but I don't think the show is over them. As for she wants does she not want the Titans to be a thing or for Hank to be fighting. Maybe it's her soft way of talking that makes it hard to understand her emotions. 

Gar has been given the least to do out of all the characters. I know his powers are probably expensive to show but that doesn't mean he can't do anything else. Dick, Hank and Dawn have no powers and they always have things to do. Although I'm getting bored of Hank and Dawn having heart to heart discussions every episode. That screentime could've been given to Gar. 

Maybe they should've had him in an episode of Doom Patrol, that show managed to have development for all their characters in one season. 

[Quark]

This was probably the best episode so far this season.