Hecate7

To be fair, your family had 34 years to observe you. Ruby's a minor character and has mainly been concerned with looking pretty in her very brief appearances to date. Not everyone even looks "that way" at someone in a recognizable way. Sometimes the tipoff is them failing to look "that way" at the other sex. Ruby qualifies in that apart from the boyfriend she accidentally killed and ate, she's shown no interest at all in men. I'm remembering a certain bisexual girl I knew who fell abruptly in love with a girl and decided she was gay, because she'd never loved her boyfriends half as much as this other girl. Before that, she had always assumed she was straight, and always dated guys. She was astonished three years later, after the girlfriend had dumped her and moved on, to find out that the NEXT partner she had she loved even more, and this one was male. So not everyone gets much warning about what they are. I'm remembering another woman I used to know, who gave no sign whatsoever that she was anything but straight, who at 45+ fell head over heels with a much younger redhead and lived with her for years. Even she wouldn't have predicted it.

Wait...Zelena is the Wicked Witch of the West. Does that mean that Regina is the Wicked Witch of the East? Is a house going to fall on her?

It only makes sense if the whole concept of pure hearts isn't real, but we all saw the white glowing heart he had. He was revolted by his former self, and so it makes no sense that he'd go back to roll in the mud. There's nothing worse than a reformed smoker, you know? I realized what he'd done when the wound from Excalibur in his arm didn't turn into a huge deal, but I was mystified about why and when it could have happened. It really makes no sense. He should have expressed pity and disdain for Hook and Emma being Dark Ones, not hungered after it again. Especially after his weird ordeal with Emma, where he warned her that making him into a hero was something she'd regret. That remark ought to tie in more with what happened.

We have had that, and had it, and had it. It gets boring. It's too one-dimensional. The problem is that noble Rumple is no longer possible (unless there's some amazing retcon in store), and conflicted Rumple is only sustainable for so long. I hate the way Rumple is going, because it makes everyone look like idiots for putting up with him at all, especially Belle. Eventually Emma, Regina, Hook, and every other character who's ever had magic, ought to find a way to stick him in the hat or put him in a box or whatever, and let Carlyle go on to do something else. I like Robert Carlyle too much to watch him twirl a moustache for all eternity. It's halfway interesting that now he's not the only one running around who's been a Dark One, and that in fact Hook was a worse one in most ways. I don't buy Rumple because I simply don't believe that with a pure heart, which he had, a newly awakened heroism, and true love by his side, anyone, even Rumple, would choose to suck up all the darkness, UNLESS he was pulling an Emma and making a sacrifice motivated by that same new pure heart and heroism, and had a plan to defeat the darkness. I could even buy that he started out with good intentions but fell victim to his own addiction. But I cannot buy that anyone with a pure heart and courage and true love would throw all that away just to become the Dark One again. It makes no sense in any reality.

New theory: all of this is a spell by Regina, similar to the first spell by Regina. Remember how Storybrook's residents all forgot who they were? How only Rumple had the slightest clue that they were all under a spell? What if Regina cast another spell when we weren't looking? Henry doesn't seem to care much about the Charmings or Emma next to Regina. Emma doesn't care about Hook or Henry or the Charmings, next to Regina. The Charmings prioritize Regina's feelings over anyone else's. The only one who doesn't seem to care that much about Regina is Rumple, which fits since he had made himself immune to her first curse. Why not make himself immune again? More likely it's just appallingly bad writing, but I like to hope. I haven't liked Rumple's arc since they stopped giving him redemption stuff and let him just be unredeemably bad. Unredeemably bad is boring, and it doesn't fit with the rest of his story, or with Belle. It ruins Belle because she's stupid to "know what I was getting" and love Rumple anyway. Turns her into some kind of gross Eva Braun figure almost. Bleah. It also ruins the entire Beauty and the Beast story, because as someone else already pointed out, the Beast only appeared bad. Belle was brilliant and pure and saw past the appearance of things. So where's that in our story? It fit for two seasons then fell away. Now neither one of them deserves a happy ending. It's terrible. The only advantages are that it makes Hook and Regina look good by comparison. But if Rumple is unredeemable because of Milah, then Regina should be unredeemable because of her father, and Graham, etc... Worst of all is what the show has done with Snow. She is the show's moral compass, but she's nowhere. I think if the last two seasons turn out to be a spell cast by Regina, it will explain Snow as well--they've styled her badly and written her feebly and given her very little to do lately, and she is the one who really ought to be seeing through Regina's shenanigans and talking to Emma about it. Perhaps they haven't given them a scene because they don't want to let the cat out of the bag? Or maybe they've just flat out lost interest in Snow and hate the character or the actress. She was Henry's lifeline even when Regina was his only Mom. The show seems to have forgotten that. So has Henry...oh, Henry. I can't even.

They seemed to be making the statement that Snow would have done the same in Regina's shoes, but really she wouldn't. The experiences that turned Regina dark, wouldn't have turned Snow dark in the same way at all. She'd have said, "You're only a child! You're ten! Yes, I'm mad at you. Yes, this is a tragedy. But no, I'm not blaming you...you couldn't have known." Snow bereft of her true love would have cried, gotten depressed, possibly looked into resurrection magic...and then buried herself in good works, just as she did in Storybrooke. It would take something else to turn her dark. I think part of the point of someone like Snow is that nothing could really turn her really dark. Depressed, maybe. Bitter, even. But cruelty just isn't believable for her. I could see an unconsciously cruel Snow who was so sheltered she didn't know that her pretty things cost lives, a Snow who required people to lie down and be walked on so she wouldn't get her feet dirty walking. Sort of innocence run amok and turned tyrant. But not a Snow who was just Regina played by a different actress. That was fun but ridiculous. Exactly. There really was no point in what they actually did--it doesn't really teach either character or the audience anything.

This. ^^^^ It's completely out of character for her to do this and never obsess over it, never feel tormented. They created Snow as a compassionate person who loves everyone and talks to birds, someone animals and Henry trust. Why would she do this? It strikes a very false note. I feel as if the author is meant to be our authors, and the meta winking is cute and ok--it's clear our authors do not approve of their creation's retconning everything to give the villains happy endings, and yet that is exactly what they are doing. I'm waiting for something to make sense of or perhaps even undo all of it.

Since Myrcella hasn't watched the show or been in any of the scenes of Joffrey tormenting Sansa at that point, she can probably be forgiven for thinking Sansa is telling the truth, particularly since she is closer to Arya's age than Sansa's. She's clever for a little girl her age. She's older than Tommen, but Tommen is younger than Bran. Speaking of Bran, that is our main clue that Myrcella is sweet. She is anxious about Bran and really glad he isn't dead. She barely knows the boy, but she wants him to recover. She's nothing like her mother. She's the sister Sansa would have wished for herself in a fairy tale: she's sweet, she's pretty, she admires Sansa, and she has perfect manners. Another clue that Myrcella is nice is that Tommen bawls his eyes out when Myrcella has to leave. Our page at HBO told us Tommen was fond of his uncle Tyrion, but he never cried like that when Tyrion had to leave. Myrcella both on the page and in the show is very kind to Tommen, unlike Joffrey and Cersei. She has "none of her mother's nature," so she's very good and sweet.

Yes, but the nature of speculation is that something is NOT definitively proved. Once it's definitive, it's no longer speculation anyway. Just because you and most of your friends did not see that particular line of reasoning as valid, does NOT mean that it required the books to get there. I got there by the end of episode one. My friend got there in the crypt scene on her first viewing, no books or websites involved AT ALL. She was more unsullied than you or your friends on the unsullied threads, even, because she lacked any real interest in the show OR the books, as it turned out. Most people don't, but two people I know for a fact were unsullied, did get there. It's really unfair on them to keep insisting that only a bookwalker would have had those thoughts. The scenes were in fact written to hint at those very thoughts. I was completely unsullied until AFTER episode 5, when my speculations got me tossed out because they were too close. Someone assumed that only a bookwalker could possibly have these thoughts, but I didn't even have access to the books at that time. I assumed that Ned and Kat both would die eventually because of the big fat dead wolf center screen in Episode 1, and that symbolism around the wolves and the Starks. I expected a neat 1-1 correspondence, that if a wolf died a corresponding Stark would also die. I also assumed that there would have to be something more complicated happening around Jon Snow than the surface story--we were being shown a surface with something lurking underneath it, throughout the first episode. Speculation isn't about facts, it's about imagination and what the show so far has hinted at. Given the closeups on Lyanna's statue, Ned's uncomfortable grunting about the subject, and Cat's virulent hatred of Jon Snow, it seemed an interesting possibility on first viewing, and kind of obvious on second viewing because of the "you have my blood" line. I was floored when my friend got there so much faster than I had, but even at that time, I couldn't say "yes, you're right," because at that time it was still only speculation. The show hadn't confirmed it, and the books btw still haven't, although IMO they've made it pretty anvillicious.

Moreover, I wonder if they know that, and if so, how they know it.

She likes extremely pretty men who are kind to her. I don't notice any crush on Pod, and he's very kind to her. He's also pretty, but not in the same way as Renly or Jaime. She likes extremely pretty, kingly men who are kind to her.

The Vale troops came when they came. Sansa couldn't be sure of them, given LF's track record. I don't see that it would have made any difference one way or the other. Jon wasn't going to wait with Rickon on the line, and did not. There was no saving Rickon, and Sansa realized that.

Good point!

I think everyone's being way too hard on Laurel here. She was too busy dealing with her sister's death, at first, and Oliver's. Then Oliver came back but her sister was still dead, and Tommy loved her. Then Tommy died and she couldn't bring herself to just bounce right back to Oliver, out of respect for Tommy. She believed herself to be the love of Oliver's life, and to be fair, everyone else thought she was, too, until Oliver actually told Felicity different. By then, Laurel was too busy being the Black Canary to have a boyfriend. Laurel didn't need a man in her life to define her. She loved an unattainable, unavailable man, and was content to do that because the rest of her life was so busy and full that she didn't really need a relationship. Let's face it, Oliver was her muse, the inspiration she needed to put on Sara's jacket and become the Black Canary, train with Nissa, etc.... This doesn't make her pathetic. It's not like she was sitting by the phone, or begging Oliver to leave Felicity and return to her. She was a friend who secretly still loved Oliver. I remember those shoes looking rather sweet on Felicity--what's the big deal with Laurel wearing them? She's not pathetic, she's romantic and loyal, and her life was just too short for her to have met the guy that would have given her what Oliver couldn't.

It's an issue because I don't want to "pick out" every word. I want to hear it without having to strain, and I am baffled at things like having what sounds like a swimming pool full of teens in the background during a quiet, tense, private scene with Miller and Octavia that distracted so much from the conversation that for a second I almost asked the neighbors to keep it down before I realized that it was part of the show. However "natural" it sounds, if it interferes with the storytelling it's not good sound. I also don't want to lose "the occasional mutter," because actors are often directed on film to go quieter when what they have to say is more important. So yeah, the sound is godawful from where I'm sitting. When you wish you could just read what they're saying instead of having to crane to listen, and when your shoulders are tired by the end of the show, that's not good sound. Good sound is when you don't have to work at understanding what the actors are saying, and you don't have to "pick out" the words from the ambient noise.

Oliver has to be Dorothy because it's his story. Who has the most fears? I'd vote Laurel for Cowardly Lion, because she has the most fears and they surface all the time. Although her Dad is almost as scared as she is, so maybe it's split between them. Felicity is the one with all the brains, plus she's the love interest so she's the Scarecrow. Thea is the one Oliver would die to save and feels most responsible for, so she's Toto. Tossup between Diggle and Mausai who's the Tin Man. Who fights harder against having feelings? Wicked Witch of the West is probably Malcolm, especially now that he's RSG. Glinda...I can't even guess. I'll know when someone says, "you had the power to go home all along." Maybe Shado?

Most kids act like that. Now multiply it by 30 and add a dozen parents who insist it didn't happen and you have a typical teacher's day. I think Sam needs to wake up--her kids aren't just rude and disrespectful to her, she's unleashing these little beasts on teachers, babysitters, etc...and rolling her eyes when they complain because...why? She knows they are like this, but she never believes a caregiver who complains or appeals to her for help. It's just how kids generally are. I get why she didn't call her Mom. Her Mom is an absolute narcissist, which is why she waited til she had a very long time and needed to clean, to talk to her Mom. She got the entire house cleaned while her Mom talked about herself. The whole time.

What it brought out to me, is that white people don't know how black people are treated, unless they are standing next to one at the time stuff's going down. Just as men don't know how women are treated online, etc... You think you know someone, but you really have no way of knowing how they treat people black people until you're in a room with them and a black person, and can observe firsthand. Sam was wrong, and her director friend Mel was right. Mel had a reason to know what to expect in that situation. Sam did not. She did what people usually do, though, and said "Hey, I KNOW my Mom." Sam's Mom didn't trot out the N word randomly, and wasn't in the habit of doing so. What she did was tell the story about how she insisted on buying a brand of hose that had the N word in its very name, as if it were an example of how black people sometimes infringe on white peoples' rights. She's not a bigot, she's ignorant. As Mel said, she's 70. Sam would have boycotted the hose, or asked why on earth the store carried a product with that name on the cover. And she'd have apologized to the salesgirl for that label even being on the hose, even though she didn't put it there. Sam apparently hasn't had a black male boyfriend before, or at least, not one that her mother knew about.

What he said to her in private, he failed to repeat in public. That's the only thing I can think of, that he did wrong, but it was a pretty big blooper.

No, it wasn't about her income, or Jane would have said "as a starving actress," NOT "as a single woman." Just because some girls in Boston managed to get credit doesn't mean that the experiences of millions of women all over the US need to be erased or that history has to be rewritten. It's a very commonly remarked on shared experience of women that age, and as possibilities reminds us, it was the law. Laws vary from state to state, but even in NY, women's adulthood was very restricted compared with what we're used to nowadays.

That's not what I get. He's not "evil." He's far more susceptible to guilt and anxiety than any of the other characters. He wanted to tell Robert about Frankie right away, because he knew he couldn't keep the secret forever--it was everyone else who insisted he lie. And Robert's heart attack made it impossible to tell the truth until Robert was on his feet. As for lying to Frankie for so long, that's also not evil, that's protecting Robert, the kids, etc...Sol can't bear to see anyone hurt, not ever, not over anything, and especially not over something he himself has done. I think if he'd had his druthers Sol would have had an open relationship the entire time, and told the truth from day one. I sort of wonder if Sol is polyamorous by nature. He didn't hook up with other lovers besides Robert and Frankie--I think he actually has to be emotionally engaged to start with, which is why the gay hookup culture of the 70s and its current parody in gay party and bar circles just doesn't excite him much. But I think once he is emotionally engaged, he'd rather negotiate a way to keep everyone in everyone's life, than make a clean break and move on. In Sol's shoes, Grace or Robert wouldn't have even confessed. They would have filed it under "none of your business," and gone on with their lives.

The babies in the intro number come before easels or business presentations, so I think Brianna came along when Grace was 26 or 27. That would make Brianna 43, which, given her wealth and access to things like top of the line cosmetics, plastic surgery, and rejuvenating products of all kinds, is not unrealistic at all. Women in their 40s often look 20-ish. Mallory is probably in her mid-thirties, given that her generation waited longer to marry or have children, than previous ones. Frankie and Sol probably spent a decade trying to have kids before they finally looked into adoption, and so for Bud to be about 10 years younger than Robert and Grace's oldest makes sense.

Wings, I was just going to say the same thing! Boston seems to have been more forward-thinking than the rest of the country. Laws do vary from state to state, even more so back then. Being from Kansas I probably saw a much more extreme conservatism at work than might have been observed in most parts of the East Coast. But our TVs told us it was normal and right, and it took a decade of Norman Lear telling us it was idiotic for most of the country to finally agree.

Gloria was famous, but she did not "reign supreme." There was a lovely wave of feminism, but that's what it was--a wave. People commented and complained about it, made fun of it, and were generally convinced that it was a passing fad. Men were not expected to agree or support it. The average woman had a credit card but it depended on her husband. She also had to bring a note from her husband to get on the pill. Robert married Grace the way you'd hire an administrative assistant. He planned to treat her well, but he didn't really have any interest in her as a person.

Me, too. And having known several people who died of cancer, I have no trouble believing that he could be riding a rollercoaster one day, and a week or a month later be gone. It works that way sometimes. I think if Darlene were going to have a fantasy she'd come up with something better than that. She appears to be drawing a very dark portrait of what it was like to be 5 and have an abusive, ambivalent mother and a dying father at the same time. It could easily happen. The fantasy of being taken away does occur to kids all the time, true, and especially if their parents are absent and/or unavailable and/or abusive. I have no trouble buying the idea of an abused kid being forcibly returned home by the police, nor with it taking one full day for Darlene's mother in particular to actually contact the authorities, especially if the parents were separated by then.