JessDVD

Boy, if that doesn't sum up 90% of the super fundie families' approaches to life.... I think what they're going for here is honorable. I'm sure most here are familiar with the feelings of new love and how much you want to be "together". Many normal people want to wait for marriage before having sex. However, I think I can say with accuracy that this is not as easy for most couples to accomplish as it is for them to say! My sister and BIL-to-be have some pretty strict rules that *they themselves* (my mom told me they're being stricter on themselves than she would have come up with) have put in place to keep themselves where they want to be, physically, before they get married in november. Sure, they're a little extreme, but I think they have a much better chance of accomplishing their goal than numerous other couples who have the same desires but don't put in the same safeguards. I think that's the basic concept the Bates etc are going for - the only way to guarantee or as close as possible, that the couple will stay, uh, apart, is to have things like chaperones and limit the together time and so on. As for the dating vs courting, goals of each, etc, it's all semantics and I think they do know that but just have their chosen verbiage. Footnote: I just realized I'm going to be witnessing the aforementioned sis & almost BIL kissing for the first time from the matron of honor spot. I wonder if I can politely suggest that they discuss technique and who goes which way in advance.

I actually can see it with the girls. At the time they were building the TTH, it was the oldest 4 girls and Joy Anna, and Johannah had just been born so would be in the nursery. I could totally see the oldest 4 being close enough that they wanted to share a room, and them being kind enough to include Joy Anna as well. I don't know, I just know that we all tend to view things (especially the Duggars) through the lens of our own experiences. I would have *loved* sisters close in age when I was a teenager (the age the girls were at the time) and I probably would have been fine with sharing a room with them. I loved most things about having female roommates in college. (though by that point, the separate bedrooms part was a good thing but I went to public university....) And for that matter, the older 4 may at that time have all thought they'd be a-courting by 21, married by 22, so it would have been a relatively short amount of time spent in the shared room. Also, they didn't really have any way of knowing how many more babies there would be or the genders, so they may not have predicted being in this position (particularly Jana) of being 24 and still sharing a room with her 4 and 5 year old sisters.

I don't know if I've read or just assumed that in the credits, when it says "Thanks to _______" (Jim Bob & Michelle, Gil & Kelly, Josh & Anna, etc), those people are being compensated for the show in a lump sum that they are free to divvy up among their family at their leisure. Jill & Derick, when they appear on the show, will probably be mentioned in the credits now as Derick & Jill Dillard and will likely receive their own. I'd like to think that Jim Bob is putting aside portions for the kids, Lord knows he can afford it, but who knows.

@Zanzibar - thanks and DUH, of course I could have checked their blog. Didn't think of that. That dress looks great on Kelly, the little modesty panel is very subtle and could even be part of the dress. The dress I'm probably wearing for my sister's wedding this fall would be a v-neck but it has a little built-in panel to keep the neckline a little higher (link here, not that I think anyone cares that much). Still not Duggar appropriate and all that but at least covers the chest area.

Anyone have a picture of Kelly in that dress? I tried Google and got to pictures of Zach, Erin, and Alyssa's wedding, narrowed it down to Zach or Alyssa but still can't find a better picture to confirm.

..... um ..... Ok, I know it's not always easy to find an MOB/MOG dress since they do all tend to be designed for people who are not old enough to BE a mother of a bride or groom (at least that's what my mom has said in her career thus far as a mother of adults who have been/are/will be getting married). But that? I mean, Jill's bridesmaids dresses aren't my cup of tea but I understand that's an individual thing, which is why thousands of styles are out there. Ditto MOB/G dresses as a thing... I may not like what my sister will pick out once she's an MOB/G but we have different styles and that's okay. But that? Really? That was the best you could come up with???? Gross. You really have to know what you're doing to take a dress and use extra fabric to make it modest and not look like butt. Whoever did Jill's dress (I've forgotten), knew what she was doing. Whoever did that for Michelle, did not.

I definitely think the majority of the Duggar viewing audience neither knows nor cares who Gothard is, or what ATI is, and just enjoy watching family-friendly wholesome TV. As the girls age and stay at home and don't seem to be pursuing much of a career, some of the people I know who previously were in the first category, have begun questioning their approach. I mean, how many people watch the show each week? It's in the millions, isn't it? How many people post on PTV and FJ and the like? Maybe a thousand? (I don't know, but that would be my guess) The whole rules that aren't in Scripture thing - probably all Christian families have, at one time or another, specific rules that aren't explicitly stated in Scripture. You can't date until you're 16. You have an 11pm curfew. You can't drive with friends in the car until you're 17. You must be in public places or at home with parents around with your boyfriend. Etc. And many of these rules might be results of bad decisions made by the parents. Like let's say there's a (this isn't based on anyone specific but I'm sure they exist) married couple who had sex before marriage and wish they hadn't (which many completely legitimately normal people might be), and they feel that a big part of what led to that happening, was being allowed to be at each other's houses without parents there. So, they have a rule that their kids have to have an adult present in the home (not creepily staring over their shoulder) when a boyfriend or girlfriend is over. Obviously, the dedicated kid is going to work around any and all rules, but this sort of rule would probably prevent many if not most cases of "one thing leading to another". I think most people can get behind this school of thought here. JB & M just seem to have to take it all up a notch, like they do practically everything. The principle is good, the execution is way, way off.

I don't know that I'd try bribing in Jessa's shoes, that could really backfire on her, but the fill 'em up with pop, send 'em to the bathroom thing, or conversations in code would definitely be good possibilities!

Young kid "chaperone": completely ridiculous, but if it gives courting Duggars a chance for a real conversation before marriage (if that really is something they're not allowed to do), then I am all for it!!!

Four for all of you who guessed North Carolina! Otherwise that article was a yawn. Oh hey, newlywed couple, like about fifty thousand others out there.

Well, there is tax season... :-)

When it's the right night, Jill takes a double dose of Ambien before Derick gets home from the late shift at Walmart... "Man, I was so tired last night! Sorry we missed our chance!"

I don't know much about the Bates and Bates' wives, but I think the difference between Anna and Jill is that Anna didn't have anything she wanted to do with life other than get married and have babies, that I've been able to think of. There's not fundamentally anything wrong with that (theoretically), and she seems to be getting what she wants, so more power to her. Jill is really the only Duggar that we've ever been shown wanting to do *and actually doing* anything specific with her life other than marriage and babies. (at least, that I can think of, feel free to correct me if I'm missing anyone, there are a bunch of them) If Jill actually wants to keep on with the midwifery thing, she will probably have to keep a lid on the babymaking.

I started this in the Jill & Derick thread but it's really about JB & M so I'm putting it here instead (phew :) I wouldn't be at all surprised if Michelle had some kind of psychological issue connected with her ability to bear children. I internet know someone who has had about that many pregnancies in her life, though about half have ended in miscarriage, and she recently had a baby with trisomy 18 who was born at 32 weeks or so, and only lived a few hours. Despite the fact that all these pregnancies is wreaking havoc on her body and her emotions, she STILL refuses to use birth control and I suspect tries to get pregnant. The only thing I can conclude, and I feel like I see the same in Michelle, is that she finds all of her personal identity in her ability to procreate, and her emotional stability in all these kids. I told my husband the other day (because we really invest too much time and conversation in the Duggars) that to tell Michelle she can't have any more babies must be sort like telling me I can't have my girlfriends anymore, or do anything with music at church (bach in music education, on hold while staying at home with kids, church is the current outlet). Except, you know, that it's generally ridiculous to force someone to not have friends or be involved with something he/she likes, and it is totally normal for women to stop having babies at some point.

My guess is Jill and most of the Duggars will have somewhere in the 5-10 range, disregarding anyone who's really truly brainwashed and/or anyone who quietly gets a vasectomy or tubal ligation at age 18. I think especially the older kids, maybe Joy Anna on up or so, aren't dumb enough to not notice how they went from squalor to the Emerald City (more or less) once TLC came along and either now or eventually will realize that the show's not going to last forever and sustaining a family that huge and not living in squalor is fairly unattainable for the average income. I mean, we don't need to all be paying for private school tuition or expensive sports camps or whatever, but there's a big jump between that and 16 people squeezed into a 3 bedroom house.

Ok, I have to say that I never actually realized Michelle USES the phrase "cause others to be defrauded", I think I'd just assumed that was people mocking her obvious lunacy in this department. Yes, Michelle, every person who sets foot on a beach is automatically ruined for life because of women parading around in their swimsuits. I think it's not impossible that Jill & Derick are at a private beach, which would kind of make them not really turning on parental rules, but if they really don't go to the beach much/ever, it is still a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Also, even if TLC didn't comp the wedding or honeymoon, J & D may have still been asked, or felt it appropriate to put a plug in for the wedding special. Really though, if TLC had comped the wedding, I would think it would have looked a little less "homemade". Nothing wrong with homemade (see: my wedding 8 years ago), but if TLC were paying for it, I would have certainly done less homemade.

I so, so, so hope that on one of Jana & Jill's labor & delivery trips, they stopped by Walmart and picked up a bikini for Jill to sneak into her luggage for the honeymoon.

Maybe I missed something up-thread but what Gothard teachings has Jill rejected in the last week?

In my head canon, that story never happened because it is so weird and bad parenting that I just prefer to pretend it never happened.

Kate Gosselin. I saw in People mag today that TLC is doing a special on them soon but I don't think they get nearly the ratings that the Duggars do and would not anticipate the kids' dating adventures to bring much media attention. I think it's a definite possibility that the cake is supposed to be that way. I'd also bet it was a dummy cake if it was out at the thousand people reception.

I wonder if Jill could have said anything that would truly convince me or anyone else that she actually chose the standards of their courtship, and didn't just do them because it was easier than making waves or to not embarrass her parents a la "Breaking Duggar" since you know TLC would exploit the heck out of that. I know several people who have made comments during their courtship about how the girls have said that they will be courting and saving their kisses for marriage and all that, and that it's their own decision, not one made by their parents and clearly these people believe that. My answer to them is OF COURSE that's what they're going to say, whether it's because they actually do believe that or because their parents threaten them otherwise or they don't want to deal with the media, and they figure "hey, it's a short courtship, waiting is easier". Anyway, I don't think Jill could have said much that would really convince me she chose the standards and of course now that she's married it doesn't really matter, but I really hope that she follows whatever path in married life that SHE wants, and if that's having a passel of kids, then carry on, but if it's have a modest amount (six-ish?) and being able to midwife on the side, I sure do hope that she can do that.

Regarding potty training, I know a lot of people (myself included) who wait till the kid is more like age 3 than 2 to start potty training because (at least in my experience) it is a LOT easier to train a 3yo than a 2yo. I tried training my first when she was about 2 and I was just training myself, not her. When she was 3, she trained in a week and was nearly independent in it. However, a 4yo still in diapers - there are issues. Of course, I think we all pretty much agree that Josie has some issues and wish that she could get some real help. Also, in a world where a woman's ability to reproduce is pretty much the start and end of her identity and value, as it certainly is for Michelle and dear God, please let the Duggar daughters not have bought into this, infertility is probably pretty devastating.

Well, of course that's what they're going to say. Josh and Anna say the same thing. What they do (or don't do) on their own time, reproductively speaking, is potentially an entirely other thing. Also, while I really don't care for those dresses or those sandals, at least they're not wearing flip-flops. The dresses are reasonably fashionable too, so that's nice. All over, much better than Anna's fug choices, bless her heart. I also love seeing Hannie with the big girls. When did she get so old??? In my head she's still about 5. Probably equal parts they don't seem to age at a normal rate in that house and everyone else's kids stay the same age while my own kids get older.

Well, we don't technically know what Josh does or doesn't do on a daily basis; it just seems from what they put up in public, that it involves a lot more "appearances" and vacation time, than actual work. Of course it might appear the same way for most of us, nobody cares about social media posts like "Just spent 8 hours working on paperwork", so most people don't post those things... I'm somewhat hesitant to say that he does nothing based on the little we know. It's fair to say he absolutely got the job for his name over any potential skills, but he could very well be doing work behind the scenes that they don't bother to share with us. .... and back to the fascinating job of a housewife, like cleaning up my kitchen. #glamorous

I would absolutely watch a show centered around the kids with only occasional appearances of Jim Bob and Michelle. As more of the kids (theoretically) get married, they could do a season with a couple episodes per married couple and one, two at the most for the kids at home and JB & M