Rhondinella

Thank you, GEML. I was coming here to post the same thing. I assumed that was what was being referred to as well. The verses, by the way, are from Numbers 5. Starting in v 17 I've excerpted the relevant portions, because I find it a fascinating ritual from an anthropological standpoint (I wrote a little about this passage in my dissertation): This is a "test" that was (apparently) used (or supposed to be used) by the ancient Israelites in cases when a man suspected his wife of infidelity, even if he had no solid proof. If he was just jealous he could haul her before the priest and demand this ritual, it appears. I've always found it fascinating for a lot of reasons that I won't go into here (including the writing of the curse and putting it literally into the water to be drunk). But using that to then say, "See! A miscarriage means you've obviously been unfaithful or sinful in some way" is beyond nonsense. (Plus, are we to believe that in 20 pregnancies over 27 years or whatever that Michelle didn't have ONE SINGLE miscarriage? I find that hard to believe.) I suppose you could read it that way depending on how you define "biblical support." I was just coming here to say the same thing. My husband, a professor of Christian theology and history, is a Protestant but has widely studied the other streams of Christianity, especially the Catholics (he did his doctorate at a Catholic school). And he just told me that while all orthodox Western (Augustinian) church tradition (including all Protestants and Catholics) DOES preach some form of "original sin", the Eastern Orthodox tradition rejected that idea, or at least modified it early on. He admits he is not an expert in this area, but he's pretty sure that their belief on the topic is more along the lines of "people are predisposed toward sin, or more likely to sin than not, but it's not a definite inherited thing." I'm sure someone else with better knowledge of these traditions could help out here. And, yes, to whoever above said that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has NOTHING to do with Jesus' birth, but with MARY's birth--specifically the fact that if Jesus was born without sin, Mary must also have been born without sin. Although, as a Protestant I admit that theory has never made much sense to me since logically it would require all of Mary's line before her to have been sinless as well, and I don't think the Catholic church goes that far.

Someone mentioned upthread that Hulu had pulled 19K from the site, but there wasn't a link to the source. Here's one: http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/28/19-kids-and-counting-hulu-pulled-tlc-cancellation-duggars-josh/

Just FYI, I moved a few posts that were solely about ratings, spin-off possibilities and TLC in general to the media thread. Please try as much as possible to take discussion that are solely about these matters there. Thank you.

Chalby--I moved your post with the question about everyone being sinners to the Religion thread. I'm sure the helpful and respectful posters there, some of whom are devout Christians, can give you an answer.

Yeah he could totally be Craster's younger brother.

THIS!! I would hate the term "homeschooling" to become synonymous with what the Duggars are doing (or not) with their kids. I'm not necessarily a proponent myself, but if the person doing the teaching has some kind of college degree at least, then I can live with it if it's done well. And I know many mothers (with bachelor's and even master's degrees) who homeschool their kids and do a very good job. I agree that by and large the homeschooled students I've run across have been BETTER prepared in many ways for college than those going to public or private high schools. People like the Duggars are the exception, I think, not the rule.

I will say that I live in Oklahoma, teach at a Christian university, and travel in Christian circles. And Oklahoma Christianity, by and large, is pretty danged conservative (although not Duggar-crazy conservative for the most part). And I know a LOT of people (and they're all over my FB right now) who DO support the Duggars and are railing against the show being cancelled. In their defense, however, I honestly don't think many of them know the whole truth behind these people and what they believe. The argument I usually hear is "It's so nice to see wholesome values on TV." And, yes, I kinda get what they're saying. These are people who often feel marginalized and ridiculed by popular culture, so seeing someone, ANYone on TV who even remotely shares some of the values--well, naturally they glom on to them. The problem is that many basically check out mentally at that point and refuse to think critically about what they're seeing. But, yes, there is still quite a bit of support for these people, misguided as it is, in many parts of the country within Christian circles, and not just fundamentalists. Most people I know who support them are NOT fundamentalists.

I am moving the conversation about homeschooling/GEDs/high school diplomas and Jessa's education to the education thread. Please resume that conversation there. It's off topic here. Thank you.

No, that was my bad, Sunflowers. In the chaos of everything that's coming out I forgot that I did read about one girl telling her dad. So, yeah, you are right there. Although I still am not convinced that is evidence of serious empowerment. But I agree that it's certainly better than feeling like you couldn't say anything.

Even worse? He's a Christian songwriter and singer. Because of course he is. (Before the angry PMs start--I am a Christian and listen to a fair amount of Christian music. Just sayin', the "hipster musician with the guitar" is a trope in Christian music that needs to die a horrifically painful death. We already have one Chris Tomlin. That is more than sufficient.)

Note: The story about CPS investigating that was posted in several places earlier this evening has been proven to be bogus. So I have deleted the posts that had the link and others that responded to them.

Sunflowers, welcome here! We're glad to have you. I just wanted to respond to this because otherwise you will likely get 47 other people doing it. I don't know if you've had time to read everything, as you admitted you had only recently started reading the boards, but the evidence we have at the moment SEEMS to indicate that the girls themselves did NOT tell their parents about the abuse (which is quite common with abuse cases). It was revealed initially through the letter accidentally left in a book loaned to a friend, and subsequently after an anonymous note was sent to the Oprah show and they turned it over to the police. Had the girls told their parents before that? We can't know for certain that they didn't, but it certainly doesn't seem so. All this is from the police report as well as interviews with the family members themselves. I agree with you that if they had been empowered enough to go to their parents that would be AWESOME. Still wouldn't mitigate the harm that was done to them, but would at least perhaps show some hope for the future. But as of right now we have no real evidence that this is true. Although I agree the married daughters do seem to be inching away from their parents' ways. So that might be a good sign. NOTE TO EVERYONE ELSE: Please don't respond to Sunflowers saying the same thing I just did. This is enough.

Please note: I have added a section to the mod note at the top of the page. Please read and act accordingly. Thank you.

Please note that the mod note pinned at the top of the page has had an addition. Please read and act accordingly.

Apology accepted. Go and sin no more, my child. Please note: I have added a section to the mod note at the top of the page. Please read and act accordingly. Thank you.

Let's do away with the speculation about Michelle or JB possibly having been abused as children. 1) If it is true this would just be victimizing them more; and 2) there's no real "evidence" (Dr. Drew notwithstanding), and we do not want to call people child molesters without any solid proof. Also let's dial down the psychoanalyzing of Michelle, or anyone else for that matter. Few of us are licensed, trained therapists, and even those who are have not examined these people first-hand and should reserve making public judgment. Thank you.

We're very happy for all you non-Facebook-having people. Feel free to go have the inaugural meeting of your club over in the Small Talk thread. But not here. Thank you.

The mods have concluded that ANY of the following actions going forward will result in an automatic 3-day suspension, and your post(s) will be deleted. These are mostly things you've been warned about more than once in the last couple of days. Please read and behave accordingly. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING. 1) The mods have decided that the "it was a youthful mistake; no it was a crime!" discussion has gone far enough. Everything that can be said has, and posting about it now serves no purpose except to try to rile up posters who disagree with you. No one here is denying that Josh's actions were heinous and deserving of punishment. Whether one refers to these actions as a "crime" or a "mistake" for the most part is just a matter of semantics. So please, FROM THIS POINT FORWARD CEASE AND DESIST ON THIS TOPIC. 2) We've repeatedly asked people to NOT attempt to identify the 5th person who was victimized, or specifically nail down which four of the five daughters were abused. Doing so only victimizes them again and serves no honorable purpose. We've had some people not heed this admonition, however and those posts have been hidden or deleted. 3) Same song, third verse: Stop talking about the possibilities that Josh may have been abused himself and speculation as to the perpetrator, and any and all speculation on whether Josh victimized any of his brothers, and whether any of the other brothers are also abusers. We have NO credible information about any of this, and we WILL NOT accuse people on these boards without evidence, no matter how much we may personally despise them. Added: 10:42 PM 4) Please refrain from psycho-analyzing any of these people. Few of us are licensed, trained therapists, and even those who are have not examined them first-hand and should reserve public judgment. Speculation about mental illness, past abuse, etc. easily turns from speculation into "fact" and we don't want or need that. Saying that so and so seems to be struggling, or seems to have issues is fine. Trying to go more deeply into those issues and where they come from is not for us to do. Are you sensing a theme here? Good. You all are intelligent people. More than smart enough to read and follow instructions. Please do so or suffer the consequences. Signed-- Your Tired and Increasingly Cranky Mods

Please be sure you have thoroughly read the post that was just pinned at the top of the page. Thank you.

The mods have concluded that ANY of the following actions going forward will result in an automatic 3-day suspension, and your post(s) will be deleted. These are mostly things you've been warned about more than once in the last couple of days. Please read and behave accordingly. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING. 1) The mods have decided that the "it was a youthful mistake; no it was a crime!" discussion has gone far enough. Everything that can be said has, and posting about it now serves no purpose except to try to rile up posters who disagree with you. No one here is denying that Josh's actions were heinous and deserving of punishment. Whether one refers to these actions as a "crime" or a "mistake" for the most part is just a matter of semantics. So please, FROM THIS POINT FORWARD CEASE AND DESIST ON THIS TOPIC. 2) We've repeatedly asked people to NOT attempt to identify the 5th person who was victimized, or specifically nail down which four of the five daughters were abused. Doing so only victimizes them again and serves no honorable purpose. We've had some people not heed this admonition, however and those posts have been hidden or deleted. 3) Same song, third verse: Stop talking about the possibilities that Josh may have been abused himself and speculation as to the perpetrator, and any and all speculation on whether Josh victimized any of his brothers, and whether any of the other brothers are also abusers. We have NO credible information about any of this, and we WILL NOT accuse people on these boards without evidence, no matter how much we may personally despise them. Added: 10:44 PM: 4) Please refrain from psycho-analyzing any of these people. Few of us are licensed, trained therapists, and even those who are have not examined them first-hand and should reserve public judgment. Speculation about mental illness, past abuse, etc. easily turns from speculation into "fact" and we don't want or need that. Saying that so and so seems to be struggling, or seems to have issues is fine. Trying to go more deeply into those issues and where they come from is not for us to do. Are you sensing a theme here? Good. You all are intelligent people. More than smart enough to read and follow instructions. Please do so or suffer the consequences. Signed-- Your Tired and Increasingly Cranky Mods

I'm sorry some of you have trouble on RSs site. However, let's not just copy and paste dozens of lines of spoilers from his site to this one. I've just hidden the two posts that did this. You can either: a) provide a link to the page where the spoilers are so others can go there; or b) for those who don't want to go to RSs site, you may SUMMARIZE his spoilers in a few sentences, rather than copying an entire blog post onto the thread. Thank you.

I was really hoping they were throwing Cersei into the cell with Margaery. I gotta say, I'm not sure which one would come out alive, but it would be amusing to watch. Even Jon Snow can't be so clueless as to think that if he leaves Castle Black for an extended period, gives temporary command to his bitterest enemy, leaves behind a group of men who mostly hate him that things are going to be OK, can he? That he's just going to waltz back in with a bunch of wildlings in tow and they'll give him back his command? Seriously, he's done some dumb stuff but this is the most idiotic in my book. So, we have an ineffectual boy king who literally no one will follow or obey now, the current queen is in a black cell, and the queen regent, who was nominally holding the kingdoms together is likewise imprisoned. So who's going to run the show now? I nominate Lady Olenna, with Littlefinger as her hand. When I thought they were about to kill Bronn I began a VERY strongly worded tweet to Benioff and Weiss.

Let's please not post comments that come from other message boards here to discuss them, or else your mods will never get any sleep (or, more importantly, get to watch GoT live tonight). If you want to respond to something from another site, respond there, not here. Thanks.

And if it doesn't show up in a thinly veiled version on The Good Wife I'll be shocked.

Yeah, unfortunately Kalinda has no other notes. She was always my least favorite part of the show, and not just because of her extremely wavering "American" accent. Her wardrobe, however, was the bomb.