Featherhat

I'd still be surprised if a BR version of Superman actually made it to screen. He was great in the crossover but that's not a surprise, his Superman wasn't ever the problem with that movie and they knew that when they planned it as basically a parting gift for him. I'd personally have more Ray but sigh. I'm surprised OC doesn't know if he's coming back yet. Assuming he's not lying. I didn't expecting him to board the Waverider immediately but I'm surprised they haven't talked to him about S6 yet. I suppose he could be meant to be a crossover only character like The Ray but Russell Tovey knew that (and about the Ray animated version) when they signed him. I think if it's a deliberate choice to show death can be rushed, chaotic and exhausting even for main characters that's one thing. If it looks rubbish because the schedules are insane and the actors aren't even in the scene with each other it's a different matter.

I'm assuming there is still something with them, probably something to do with the portal, but so many dead characters came (potentially) back to life I thought they might do a sweet flashback scene and call it a happy ending for them because Oliver would undoubtedly sacrifice himself forever to have these characters live a safe existence in the new Star City and the "see you in the afterlife (but no onscreen)" would be implied. I assume grown Mia is there somehow to deliver Oliver's message to Felicity how or why probably has something to do with Sara or Barry. The thing with Moira and William for example is that is should be a powerful story of a wealthy woman who "loved" her grandson on a personal level but robbed him and her own son of the chance to know each other and for Oliver to take responsibility and become a decent father a decade earlier due to appearances but was confronted about how fucked up that was in S4-6. But if that's all smoothed over with an Oliver reset and we never see it onscreen. Emiko and Moira? Giant cop out even though I'm willing to handwave some characters: *all of them*?. Doppelgangers still take out the power of those deaths for everyone. Hell, why not just stop Rebecca Merlyn from being murdered by Brick and have done with it? Because that's the ground Zero event as far as well know for all the shit happening. Argh, this is going to be a mess. So whilst it's a mess, *have Oliver some sort of alive and happy in the final scene* Please. I know I should feel excited about so many great characters being back however it happens but so many just made me feel completely meh about the episode. Well she's been quite in demand since Shadowhunters finished so I'm sure she'll be more than fine if it doesn't get picked up just as a fact but if you believe paparazzi reports the pilot shooting was not smooth sailing so... As for Laura Hurley I often agree with her and that's not a ringing endorsement. There's some things I might wish were just a big dream sequence? Arrow has a lot of those. I still hope I enjoy this and I want to see the further adventures of William and Mia, possibly the Diggle boys if things aren't completely annoying with a personality and love triangle switch, adult Zoe and possible Sara Diggle but not the Canaries. And there are others in the fandom that feel the complete opposite vis a vie characters so...

Unless it's a fantasy of Oliver's I just don't like the combination of the last 7.5 seasons being now AU and the writers not even having to bother coming up with any explanations and everyone potentially getting a happy ending except Oliver, even though the character would obviously take that in a heart beat he deserves better. We better also be getting an Olicity reunion somehow as well as the rest of his friends and family happy for ever. Without him. He already did his penance for his worst actions. Otherwise instead of Nolan triology-ing the ending they've literally just taken Endgame.

Yeah basically. So every death about the show and the fallout from them (might) be changed and we're definitely not going to have enough time to explore that. Hay, why not bring Rebecca Merlyn back whilst you're at it and then Malcolm never had a vendetta against the glades or joined the LOA at all. Of course then Thea might not exist. I've seen in a couple of places maybe Oliver is dead for real no other dimension or afterlife that we see so that all his family come back instead and really that would be bittersweet and everything but wouldn't work for me at all.

I'm not either but I'm not sure what it can be. A doppelganger doesn't mean the same thing as his own mother being there and undercuts Moira's death as well if the rest just have another version of her. I suppose that theoretically could be the beautiful ending to the show, if Oliver stays dead and everyone else is brought back. Not at all convinced though. I'm sure even if making a deal to bring everyone else back to life E1 Malcolm would stay dead despite sacrificing himself for Thea.

Wow, everyone's back. A version of Moira gets to meet her grandson. Have fun explaining why this is the first time Moira. Unless Oliver reset that when he rebooted the multiverse and Slade never killed her. Felicity and Older Mia probably delivering Oliver's message. Sobs. Thea and Roy and a potential happy ending setting up the LOH with the Al Ghul sisters! Hah, if they had included a photo of that it would be a Caity Lotz gives no shits about spoilers one. These photos show that as promised Oliver is VERY DEAD Y'ALL DO YOU HERE ME!! There was a rumour going around that EBR was only in two scenes. Assuming there is an Olicity one that info seems to be completely false.

If nu!Beth is a refugee from Earth!Whichever it still leaves Kate angsting over Alice who is also a Beth and the one she grew up with. If she's a "birthday present" somehow, the same applies and also brings about the question of how real she is and is Kate kidding herself if she then locks up Alice without a second thought. She can't be original!Beth who's been split off from Alice because Mary saw her at Gotham U before Alice crashed Gotham prep and proved that her plan is still 99% "get Kate to join me". It shouldn't lessen the original dilemma but obviously gives RS more to play with and the writers more to play with in how they resolve things but keep RS around post S1.

Rachel Maddow as the voice of Vesper Lynd will never not be really weird. Kate's frustration and disgust with Batwoman getting a boost after the city started shipping her with "Mr March" was amusing. I know it was the theme of the episode and coming out as Batwoman being a lesbian was necessary for Kate on a personal level but Luke was right the first time, the less personal information they have about Batwoman the less they're likely to connect her to the also very out and famous Kate Kane. Obviously Parker's pain directly linked into the clusterfuck that was the secrecy and outing of her relationship with Sophie. Parker's rant was true and heartbreaking but I still cringe when these shows get too meta. And I'm still not a fan of fandom terms on actual shows either. I wouldn't mind seeing Parker again in the future. Poor Mary, channeling her grief into nonstop trying to help Jacob as escaping dealing with it and knowing exactly what she's doing, knowing that everyone thinks she's crazy. Her defeated sign off to her SM followers was great acting by NK. I'm glad she and Kate hugged, I also need her to be brought into the secret ASAP. Sophie trying to be a person willing to torture someone for info felt and looked like a girl playing dress up which is exactly what is was and didn't suit her one bit. So the person she received romantic advice from was Batwoman whom she is apparently not currently still suspecting is Kate. Luke is growing on me and I'm starting to separate him in my head from an annoying Curtis-lite. Kate still spends a lot of time letting Alice villain monologue her plans and just standing there when a quicker Baterang could help solve things. Doppelganger Beth could be a Mouse trick as he was frustrated that Alice let her "weakness" for wanting to be a family with Kate get in the way of his own supposedly less weak psychotic goals. However I think it might be real and a way to keep either character and Rachel on the show long after the current Alice thing is played out, without resorting to "why are we trusting Malcolm Merlyn again?" issues. Whilst I don't really want her to be a "real" Beth at least it would only be changing 8 episodes worth of stuff and not up to 8 seasons. If she's a sudden doppelganger dropped to the new Earth Prime it doesn't make Kate having to deal with Alice Beth any easier as she's still her sister. However unless things only reset after the cake wish then everyone else also remembered the old timeline.

Arrow doesn't physically have enough time to do detailed resets with one episode to go. And really what's the point of resetting stuff like Nyssa and the BMD. Olicity are (probably) going to end some version of "happy" and "together" even if it's a long road in number of years. I'd rather not have the whole show go AU even within it's own fictional universe, especially as most of the characters I love won't be around to act out the changes or deal with them. With William and Mia they have a whole 20 years off screen to mine for their lives together and if William wants to remember things about events before his mother died differently, well then that's not surprising as he was only about 11 when she died. There's also a lot of off screen stuff for Siren and Dinah they can create without having to actually change events. However tell not show is their favourite thing to do with any version of Laurel so I expect that, but hopefully not the equivalent of E1 Laurel always secretly being a vigilante in S1 or something extra silly.

For the sake of my sanity I'm just going to assume that until otherwise stated everything we watched on Arrow S1-8 happened except the FFs because I hate it when shows rewrite the entire thing like that. Of course we might somehow end up with a merged Laurel with a new backstory (more martial arts when Oliver died?) who is everything to everybody. "If you wanted E1 back, she has some of her memories, if you wanted snarky, antagonistic BS we're also chock full of that too...…" But in general unless something is explicably different its the same as the episodes I watched. Dinah at least has to have been in the future a while then. Maybe she has a Legends doohicky. Going from Police Captain to bar owner in your mid-late 30s isn't amazing but maybe she's burned out after everything. And if she's not supposed to be from then easier to do than fake your way into a police department you ran 20 years ago.

I imagine "dodging tricky questions like a pro" or something. Since she has been saying stuff like "everything's very beautiful and heart felt" without saying anything that would have Beth putting her on the naughty step from now until next crossover. Snerk. Yeah because that's lukewarm praise at best and I can kind of see where he's coming from from what we know.

Sara got the clocktower and "adopted" an orphan named Sin not to mention fighting skills on par or better than Oliver, an origin storyline very connected but training very separate to Oliver and she still got killed for D. Laurel "Instant!Canary" Lance. KC has been brought back so many times I don't think she has to worry about names or bars. GATV is assuring people the three are co-leads and KC has the most screentime since S1 Arrow, she's not the one that has to be concerned. Yeah, she'll probably end up living in the Queen Mansion curtesy of Olicity's kid, ironic. I'm still going with almost certainly JJ, for maximum shock value. Last time we saw him he was about to behead Mia and now surprise! he and Mia are childhood sweethearts (although JJ is 5 years older and Mia is still only 21 so hmmm) and Connor is Deathstroke because he never got adopted but has a good heart deep down. Then Mia remembers both versions of the boys and drama!! ensues.

Some random Wayward Sisters comparisons are one reason I thought it might be unofficially dead even before airing last week: female team spin off, popular as it's going to get for a spin off of this show, in competition with another similar show that went straight to series... If it wasn't picked up last week I don't think it's been ordered yet and they're waiting to see how it does. It can't be ratings because yeah, Arrow launching a direct spin off (as opposed to Dig becoming GL and going to the HBO Max show or something) won't be about the numbers on the CW overnights.

Yup. I think they'd do that anyway even if there wasn't a BDP because they've only got EBR for one episode and SA's contract was for nine. Plus they're not going to give away a (potential) alternative/parallel dimension/ascension/afterlife reunion until the last minute. So Dinah owns The Fishnet in the present or the future? I'm guessing the present but I assume they get stuck in the future somehow so it won't be a regular thing if it goes to series? Or can they travel at will with a LOT portal thingy? From what we know or can guess, I think I'm going to have to sleep on it when I see some of the changes to the events and characters so I don't blame her. I kind of hope I like it so even if it doesn't end up being a show I like the thought of where Mia, William and co end up.

I'd be highly surprised to see a completely different version of Superman on TV (as a complete series) now that they're focusing on getting TH and ET's updated Lois and Clark off the ground. Even if it went to HBO Max it would likely be a Berlanti production anyway and it seemed quite clear BR and CF weren't leaving LOT by choice, like for a better opportunity. It's pretty easy just to say "I've heard GA&TC might not get picked up" when it wasn't ordered in the first wave and a couple of trades expressed doubts about the CW wanting to launch more than one new Arrowverse show in 1 season and there's now Stargirl on the horizon. No insider info necessary.

Even if there has been tension on set I'm surprised they haven't done an interview with all three of them yet, unless it's going to be a post ep one. Unless it's already so bad it's not worth it. (Mostly joking) I guess it's more to do with GA and the Canaries as two separate groups. I have to say, Kat comes across a lot more coherent and articulate than JH and KC. If girlpower! is all they have then it's not going to get them very far with Supergirl, Batwoman, LOT and now Stargirl in the Arrowverse. They're going to have to find another hook as well, which might be the FTA gang. So Dinah's soulful and arty now and Laurel's "in the driver's seat". Yeah if it gets picked up that's where the Mia vs Laurel BTS and fandom stuff will come in. I still don't think they need both older Canaries but I guess they can play off each other as contrasting mentors and there's a spare for the early season death.

So you watch Supergirl on Sundays to find out.

True. I was just thinking about the recent question of Dinah Lance (dead or just forgotten?) and the fact that Samantha (William's mother) was only ever angst/break up generating plot device and has barely been mentioned since she died just like Francine. Would they want to make it a bigger deal by giving the blame to Joe so Jesse has some juicy scenes if one parent was in the know all this time? Ragdoll was legitimately extremely creepy and effective so it's good he's coming back even if I have to turn away like a child. Well, they seemed to be having a nice dinner which is sure to be interrupted or go to pot with an argument, but it's a start. Since this is TV and WA has been severely lacking recently without even "domestic bookend scenes" a storyline that puts them front and centre is a good thing. Because if they have to work though some stuff they aren't going to break up and whilst frustrating lead to some meaty scenes that didn't happen in 6A. Well hopefully.

Yeah and Connor is possibly the new Deathstroke, they switched roles, gotcha! Now there's a SaveConnor! mission and love triangle, especially if Mia gets any memories back. That would work. Pre Island Ollie had the world at his finger tips and the potential within himself to be great but preferred to be a trust fund douche bro. Mia might be more outwardly capable but it wouldn't surprise me if they lean hard on the Queen lifestyle parallels of her father and aunt.

I had seen it as part of a list of random spoilers a few weeks ago and remembered it once I saw the scene. I can't remember if any other spoilers came true but probably. It wasn't anywhere near as well speculated as the Lucifer cameo but it was out there I think.

Who knows really. There are a million ways they could be "technically telling the truth" and still give Oliver a happier ending on screen (beyond the fact that there's definitely an afterlife in this verse) and have Olicity reunite and Oliver's death stick. Although SA has also said guest spots are possible...... If they take out Felicity going to reunite with Oliver wherever because we were already expecting that well they shouldn't have tied Felicity's journey up like that in the first place. They wanted a hopeful end for Felicity and Olicity in case they didn't get EBR back and I think the spirit of that will stick. IIRC Beth has said the portal will come in to play, it doesn't have to mean what we assumed it did. With think SA wrapped last with EBR and that the last scene is between two people and is probably them. Whilst that could be a memory/flashback for a bittersweet mourning or goodbye "I'll be here waiting when you die" scene, I'm guessing it's more than that. Especially as they aren't going to want to have to deal with people asking why Felicity isn't around helping her children and two *good friends* sometimes if the spin off does get picked up. And you know, they occasionally flat out lie to protect spoilers. Without a doubt that's why it was greenlit. It just remains to be seen if it's enough after the review/fan consensus of the ep is in, how it fits in the with many other Arrowverse and female superhero Arrowverse shows and the rest of the pilots.

Even if you go with the fact that the flashbacks needed to be memorable or intense, they still made no sense. Surely they could have come up with more interesting ones? It was interesting to see Ray in his Arrow Asshole days again after loving him for so long on LOT and him actually starting to become more tolerable very late on Arrow. Kara and Oliver arguing when they first met was a call back to the (quite out of character) awkwardness in Invasion but it didn't really inform be of anything about them as teammates or whatever. The Laurel one I have no idea what that was about except some weird need to big up E1 Laurel whilst still not including her or KC in anything beyond "Laurel was definitely the best- lets just tell it so we don't have to show it" x1000- see also "she let me beat her at tree climbing" Sara you were definitely both competitive and sore losers see: Oliver. Her scene isn't even with Sara or Oliver, it's Dig, someone who is beloved and important but not really for her or Sara for that matter. Meanwhile Siren who actually had a potential role in the actual "Infinite Earths" part of this story is nowhere to be seen even in 1-3.

Of course they should care, Definitely. I didn't mean they shouldn't but it's a frustrating fact of this and most other Arrowverse shows that they ignore continuity and characterisation in favour of whatever plot they need to be driving the story this week, even if it directly contradicts episodes in the same season and no character comments on it. And so we might get Iris "refusing to be a damsel anymore" when she never has been because they want an angsty Valentine's Day scene and/or this is going to drive Iris into a storyline with Eva or whatever and it's the quickest way to do it. Francine would be a better option than Joe as from the 30th Century because we know nothing about her, though if that's the case I still want Iris to be Joe's biological daughter. Though are they going to hang a major storyline on a brief now dead character who was mostly a plot device and isn't around to explain herself?

You're right there was much less spin off character selling than there might have been. Maybe it was making the most of BR whilst he's still around and as a parting gift. Let him play a good superman so he goes out on a high, definitely not the problem with that movie? I mean Lex overshadowed everyone in parts 1-3 especially and neither the character nor JC need selling. I guess they're banking on a "Superfamily" premise and the Superman (and Lois) name to sell it without showcasing TH, who has always got good reviews in the role and could have future appearances before his show. Dinah and Rene actually got more to do than I initially expected, I was thinking more like the "B Team" appearance in COEX but they were mostly there to look sad about Oliver even though they weren't that close to him and be exposition. Mia I guess got zapped back to the future and we'll see the changes next ep. Siren I have no idea why she wasn't there at all and why E1 had one frustrating scene. I assume that's going to be addressed, it seems like it is from the various promos. Barry remembers the changes from before Flashpoint and whilst it was a big plot point in early S3 it's not mentioned now so I assume the paragons and those J'onn zapped are going to assimilate over the B-seasons of the shows with some of the changes showcased then next year things will be mostly new normal. Hopefully for viewers sakes as well as fictional characters' sanity events on this merged Earth will turn out to have played out similarly but each character couldn't help out with the other show's issues and more personal events because they were dealing with a different world ending crisis in May etc, which are the same excuses they've already been using. Aliens existing would probably have been ignored by Arrow if it was continuing but it's not a massive stretch for Flash or LOT and Batwoman probably won't change too much and BL will do its own thing in Atlanta/Freeland.

I suppose that could be one of the post Crisis changes but more likely it's just the writers thinking Iris was inherently damselled a lot because she's the non powered LI and this is a comicbook superhero show. That and not caring because it doesn't fit the current storyline they want to do. If it gives Iris more agency that she often has and uses her to drive a plot it might be worthy it because I doubt she and Barry will be at odds for long. If they do go with a 30th Century storyline I really do want that to be a post Crisis change and not something that Iris (and maybe Joe) has been hiding from Barry for years. That makes no sense whatsoever. I guess a memory wipe could come in to play but I find "memory wipe for your own safety" storylines tiresome and very hit and miss.