Featherhat

I suppose we might find out about that if the spin off is picked up. The fic will be amazing at least. It is kind of what I feared, the series went AU and we have no time to deal with it and the writers pat themselves on the back because they brought back so many characters for nostalgia and don't even have to explain it. They're all Oliver's actual friends/family with Prime memories though not like in Batwoman or Supergirl I think, my feed wasn't brilliant.

Except for the Nazis, They made sure the Nazis were totally separate assholes. Other asshole/murderous but less Nazi doppelgangers were interchangeable however.

Yeah Mia came to the past before Dinah was transported to the future. Her past of the last few weeks is still in Dinah's future. They're in two different time streams/personal timelines right now. Dinah hasn't yet met Mia in the future, that's the stuff Sara had warned her about talking to Dinah about.

She mentioned she was magically and mysteriously transported to 2040 after Oliver's funeral so it hadn't happened yet. Oliver went back and saved people from his Earth/the merged Earth Prime except Laurel. So they're all the people he remembers and remember him.

Let Berlanti and HBO Max know.

Funny thing is they actually manged to abandon a lot of that in S8 but *now* of all times they bring it back,

They've been saying that since S6 and apart from a few eps, it's showed. But Sara understood the difference in Lost Canary.

MG really wanted those steak knives for his 5 William kidnapping in 3 seasons plots.

Not until after Oliver's funeral I think, then someone who transported her to the future deliberately erases everything, maybe?

So her father is now more important to Oliver than E1 Laurel? Ouch. In all seriousness it's a lot to do with the spin off as they said upthread but they didn't think about merging them? I'm glad he's included because I love him but 90% of Quentin's entire storyline was about mourning his daughters, he was kind of happy and relieved to finally get to sacrifice himself or a bitchy copy of one of them.

Fandom is always the part of a show that I miss the most, especially if it's one that's gone on for as long as Arrow has and had so many ups and downs. Sniff, thanks to everyone who made this forum what it is. E2 Laurel doesn't self medicate with alcohol does she? Please lets not bring that storyline into a potential spin off. 🙄 I'm going to be crying even though we've already seen Oliver die and I (think) I know roughly what's coming from the spoilers...😭

I'm assuming. After she (and Mia) rescues him and he has a talk with Adult Mia maybe? I assume Samantha didn't get brought back because being a full time dad for a year was vital to Oliver's journey or something. And the potential spin off.

So after not calling her at all ever (for yeah obvious reasons) when there's an issue time travel could solve, Sara now really has become an Arrow character taxi service. Poor Mia though upset over Adult William's kidnapping last episode, he's missing until the spin off gets picked up and now she has to deal with little William being kidnapped. Don't worry Mia, he was kidnapped a lot on you're Dad's watch. It's a family/GA tradition!

I think there's probably a lot of stuff he missed out or didn't bother much with that's important or the comes across very differently on screen. But I do believe the guy saw the episode/knows about it. His other spoiler posts have been mostly on the mark, and I'm saying that as someone who wishes things were at least a bit different to some of the things he said on this and other occasions. We'll see I guess.

I do wander if that was the divine inspiration scene that came to him whilst he was meditating or if they went with something else because it doesn't seem like it was logistically difficult to pull off. Or indeed something unexpected or surprising given *save this city* has been Oliver's rallying cry for so long and the damn portal last season. Yeah unless it really was getting EBR back which really was 50/50 or something. It seems like something he'd like - young Oliver and Felicity looking out over a version of Star(ling) City to enjoy/maybe protect forever. All those actors at Oliver's funeral, including ones that aren't contracted to any of the Van shows as well as the ones who are and are very busy filming those shows right this minute - logistical nightmare, but I can't think it would have been slated to be the end scene because it wouldn't include Oliver and I think they wanted to end it on Oliver (and Felicity but especially Oliver.) Guess we'll find out in the post finale interviews. Boy are they also going to have fun explaining how they think all these SuddenlyAlive!Dead people fitted into the seasons after they got offed. I assume Samantha isn't there because Will and Mia grow up together, so I kind of hope Oliver didn't exactly have control over who to bring back, but that will probably just be handwaved. @tv echo Most shows that have a reunion after death or however it's going to play out go with the young attractive version of a person's soul because they want the pretty people we've watched on screen most of the series not EBR in her (pretty good) 50s makeup and SA as 34.

Yeah, Mary was awesome in this but what does she actually know? She was freaking out that Beth looked like Alice because the last time she looked into those eyes they had poisoned her mother but also accepted it was a unknown "miracle" until she read Beth's extremely convenient multiverse thesis and drunkenly got the whole of COIE right? She really needs to be brought into the secret ASAP. So it seems like there will be different rules for dealing with multiple live doppelgangers on different shows. Great. Because I don't think Flash or Supergirl are going to want to start with those physical repercussions. Even if that doesn't kill one of them and Astro Beth survives the bullet that Jacob just announced she was getting it won't be easy for Kate to forget that Alice is "her" Beth, especially with the renewed guilt that she couldn't save her after the crash. If they do only keep one it probably will be Alice because she's the one driving the plot forward and Beth is great but boring. But this does solve problems of how to keep RS and her ability to chew scenery on the show without having be to be Malcolm Merlyn or all the Welles about. Beth dealt with the loss of everything she had known and her entire Earth pretty well. I guess it's too enormous to process right away. The flashbacks continue to be very creepy. Like Sophie, I hate what young Beth went though but whilst it explains why she's like Alice is now, it doesn't excuse it. Sophie was just there, minimal angsty relationship drama but nothing special with Alice either. Though when Alice was taunting her about being trapped in a hell of her own making, I wonder if she realised she is too.

Adult Mia and Jack Moore apparently interact so that's going to be a headfuck for him. With photos I think the Smoak/Queen version of the family lucked out more than the others in all their shots. And the Lances. LOT had a Sara/Quentin/Laurel original one which they turned into a Sara/Oliver/Laurel one for some reason and the photoshopping was hilariously terrible.

Between being the young widow at the funeral, meeting her adult daughter and leading the search for her son, then the Olicity reunion I'm not surprised she has a lot to do and that they made the most of her. Maybe rescuing him is what makes William want to go back and live with her and Mia, although baby sister should do that on her own. Unless Earth Prime William never left with the Claytons in the first place because there was no need to get him off screen to make the stupid reveal work.

I think it's a bit of a reach to say Oliver is selfish for specifically not bringing E1 back when we don't know anything about how he was able to bring the others back and he died and gave up his own life with his wife and kids to be able to do it. It's probably not going to make a whole lot of sense but I can think of about 50 much worse/selfish things he's done off the top of my head. And that goes for Barry, Kara, all Legends and Jefferson as well. But I don't personally think it's one of post island Oliver's biggest personality flaws. Pre Island Ollie it was probably the biggest part of his personality over all. I don't think the writers particularly love E1 but she's probably not there because BS is there, has been *the* Laurel for 3 years now and is going to have quite a significant role (per spoilerguy). We'll probably get lots of bigging up E1 as the heroest of heroes whilst BS gets more spin off set up and snark the writers love writing for her. If they wanted to fuck with Laurel fans or KC they'd have her go up to Felicity saying she realises Oliver never loved her at all, her true love is Tommy and turn to BS anointing her the One True Laurel Canary and go back to being Rachel Dawes lite only. Marrying Tommy and being happy before her death is better than S2-4 for her.

I don't think that is entirely fair on this board people regularly call out Oliver for his dumbass and just plain wrong decisions and he's rarely woobie-fied. I think most people that are not fans of Laurel 100% agree that she had every right to have the fury of 1000 suns at Oliver when he first came home and never want to see his face ever again. The problems started coming when the writers wanted to have this and also wanted them to be falling back into love in the same episode for much of the first season. KC also did not play Laurel with any layers leading to full on "hate, love, hate, love" flip flopping every time they interacted. It was an extremely tough sell as an OTP love story and neither of their acting did anything to help sell it. She had a POV and a supporting cast to express where she was at to, it just wasn't believable that she could want to be with this guy. Oliver's stated goal is more believable "make this right to her, which is one of two reasons I've been allowed/able to survive." And even then it was clear he wanted a girl who didn't exist. Laurel both after and especially before wanted a guy who didn't exist either. It's kind of laughable that she always saw the hero under the playboy because nothing in S1 hinted at it, even when she was running around with the Hood. Oliver was able to manipulate her into convincing her Dad he wasn't the vigilante etc. Which yes, was an asshole move. It also didn't help her image that she was one of those berating him for being selfish with his friends and family when we KNEW he had just risked his life to save them and everyone else. Not her fault but didn't help. This thread isn't 97 pages (and Felicity has 75) because people aren't interested in her character or female characters in general and it's not all "I hate Laurel" either. There's a lot of discussion about her motivations, backstory and character arc. It's worth noting Felicity isn't a push over at all in their working or romantic relationship and there are places on the net that hate this - especially because she's a non canon character to do this but cheer every time Laurel snarks at him. And yeah visa versa with the hypocrisy that comes with shipping preferences. And yes, Oliver gets some main character protection, especially when we actually see him go through hell. This is not specific to Oliver in the Arrowverse though or even male characters. If we switched to Sophie being the main POV character in Batwoman we'd have an entirely different view of her and her relationships with Kate and her husband. For me a lot of my frustration with the character have nothing to do with Oliver, shipping or disliking female characters. It's about becoming BC and how the writers went about that with Sara dead at her feet and Insta!canary and now Insta!Redemption, she the Queen of "we'll tell you because showing won't work." It felt like the writers just wanted to get Laurel to BC already so people would shut up about it. Laurel had an awful time of it pre pilot but that's the case with pretty much every Arrow character. There's not one happy backstory. And her "crucible" of addiction was rushed and frustrating because she never took responsibility for any of her poor decisions then or later. It didn't help that whilst this was going on I was also watching Sara (and Oliver) pay again and again for her total betrayal of her sister both in the flashbacks and in the present storyline body, mind and soul. She was partly broken and regretful, partly felt she was too much a monster to ever come back but was trying to do what she could. That has also carried across to LOT where she continued to struggle with guilt, shame and bloodlust and *also* be an awesome, empathic leader in contrast to Siren's bullying, arrogance and hypocrisy to Mia in the GATC pilot. KC again chose to play all the high notes with no softer or regretful shading to her blowing up Mia's life or talking about her own backstory.

Arrow started off very grounded and ended up...…..not, so I'm not sure it was ever going to be an option for Batwoman. I get what you mean though. They certainly didn't have to do anything but a Beth being back gives them options on how to use both Alice and Beth going forward. And I doubt it's going to be a straightforward choice where Kate has Beth now so is okay taking down the Alice version and forgetting about her. They probably weren't going to wreck their pre COIE cliffhanger of Catherine dying and Jacob being in jail so soon. We'll see what happens tonight but they still seem to be keeping the same tone of the show.

It's most definitely a very weird choice (and Lazy) to make the entire show go AU with no time to process that it's not the show we've been watching for 7 years, and not just because they inserted 1 extra character like Dawn, I'm not happy with it, but there could actually have been a lot of shittier twists they pulled at the last minute. GOT backlash was for a number of reasons, mostly because no one felt it was set up right and they wasted the season leading up to it. This is at least in character for Oliver, even if it's stupid. I don't know if there will be a huge backlash. Maybe but right now the people most upset by the spoilers (from different sections of the fandom) seem annoyed it seems exactly the same as last season but with added details. We'll see how it actually plays out.

That's why it's just picking and choosing (apparently almost everyone *but* Laurel) who they want to bring back and coming up with an explanation afterward because Moira and Tommy's deaths had a massive affect on his journey as GA, almost as much as Robert and arguably more than Malcolm by S5 when he died - Oliver was already GA and done with Malcolm's bs mostly. But it's mostly to do with the spin off I guess. If Olicity got together sooner, I suppose we might here a bit about it either at the funeral or during their last scene but I'm not counting on it. Guess it doesn't really matter.

If the spoiler guy is right, nothing very much is explained about what changed or how events unfolded. Given the way Reddit was asking about E1Laurel, if there had been a flashback scene to explain some things or set up a new goodbye scene as a consolation prize, I think he'd have mentioned it. I guess there will be a lot of post finale interviews to explain BS and MG's headcannon about things and you get to picture whatever version you want. Maybe Laurel started to fall truly in love with him and not just as an Oliver substitute/placeholder when he saved her life and not Oliver or The Hood. Instead of trying to use his death to get back with Oliver right after his funeral. Damn S4 flashbacks. 🙄

It feels very cheap to resurrect everyone and then turn a lot of the show we watched AU which is basically exactly what I didn't want to happen, and you're right I would imagine they want some of them to appear in the spin off occasionally - courtesy of Sara's new 2040 taxi service probably. However the show could have gone SURPRISE! in so many worse ways. At least the fic writers will be busy writing their (canon!) Tommy/Moira live fics. I imagine both had something to say about various Olicity plots for example. And Donna v Moira stuff. I imagine there's dialogue about why E1 Laurel can't come back and it's partly a spin off issue but it does seem glaring that everyone's back but her. At least this Laurel got a few years with Tommy instead of telling her ex who treated her horribly and was in love with someone else that he was the love of her life. Though god knows what her S2 storyline was now or how that triangle got resolved unless it was "oops we both made a mistake and I actually definitely want Tommy."