BabySpinach

I'm re-listening to it right now and Jensen's comments that the show has always been (or used to be) kind of Sam-centric, and that Sam himself is (was) quite self-absorbed and takes it for granted that his big brother will deal with everything, made my jaw drop. It's the kind of thing that only ardent Dean girls tend to say. To hear it from one of the two main actors, who's clearly put a lot of thought and analysis into the show as a whole to form such an opinion, is pretty amazing.

That interview was wonderful. Frank and honest, barely any dancing around the point with fancy, cautious words. Jensen also showed that he put a lot of thought into Dean the character and talked about him as if he were a close friend, offering insight into how he would react to hypothetical situations or what he would do. Of course, my favorite part is when Jensen straight up half-joked, "Yeah, Sam is basically a selfish asshole" (this was right after The Purge had aired, so it felt earned rather than overly harsh, imo). He obviously has to be more diplomatic at cons and official interviews, but I love that we got to hear what was on his mind in all its unrefined, strongly-opinionated glory. I'm forever grateful that Jensen genuinely loves Dean and is probably the biggest fan out of all of us.

It makes me nostalgic to remember how simple the show used to be, and how just a scene between two boys and their father could be so laced with tension and drama. Of course there was a YED in there somewhere, but the stakes were still objectively low (yet no less effective). Will Sam trust Dean's judgement that John is possessed? Will Sam kill his father in the name of revenge? Great stuff, and thematically consistent with the entire first season. God, narrative cohesion and emphasis on character arcs and relationships is just so great, ain't it?!

If the show were written by people with a more mature understanding of making amends, who knew that big gestures weren't necessarily the most effective, that would have been ideal. But this is the show that at its widely regarded "peak," season 5, had Sam fall hard from his hubris of believing himself to be the Chosen One but then redeem himself by insisting that he be the big hero in the end anyway. I would've also preferred that Sam and Cas not flail around like headless chickens around a generally well-controlled Dean. There's no way I was 100% happy with the execution of season 10 and 11. Season 10's finale fucking SUCKED. But they went in the general right direction in regards to damage-controlling Sam's likability and giving Dean a mytharc that involved him talking down God's sister, volunteering to sacrifice himself for the soul bomb, and pretty much single-handedly saving the universe. My height of dislike for Sam was in season 9. After that, I would have taken pretty much anything that made him seem like a better person than who he was in The Purge. I also used to be passionately pissed off with what they did to the brothers' dynamic, for everything that was swept under the rug and reset, but I guess I don't have that kind of energy anymore. Right now, I'm just glad that even when they're fighting about serious things ie. Jack, it never feels like either of them crosses a line that they can't realistically come back from. Nothing feels broken between them anymore, which is a definite improvement. I'll still get plenty annoyed when the arguments are presented with a heavy bias, such as the therapist shapeshifter episode 13.04, but it's nothing close to what I felt in season 9, when they pushed it way too far. I'm not too into the BM moments, either. The draw of the mystical brotherly bond has lost its appeal to me, thanks to years of accumulated bitterness that I can't quite ignore. But it's also just nicer and more pleasant to watch Sam and Dean get along, exchange jokes, and not say terrible cutting things to each other for the sake of cheap drama. I'm not saying it's a masterpiece of writing or anything. It's just less contrived and more natural this way. But this is all just a SMALL aspect of the show's latest years that I actually like. I could write a 10,000 word essay on what I don't like about Dabb's run...

I mean Sam was pretty much forced to eat those sanctimonious words all throughout season 10. Sure, Dean was willing to lie to his brother about being possessed by an angel, for fear he would then immediately cast it out and die, but Sam was willing to fuck over the entire world to the Darkness to cure Dean of something that wasn't even threatening his life. This doesn't make me any less mad at The Purge, but Sam's proclamations have been thoroughly refuted since then. The writers probably realized they went too far in season 9 so they scrambled to overcompensate for that in seasons 10 and 11. I would've preferred that Sam never said any of that in the first place, and that he wasn't then forced into a really heavy-handed audience sympathy redemption journey, but it was better than letting those words stand. I'm sure that Sam will do whatever he can to save Dean, and Sam has done and gone through enough for that to not be hypocritical. Seasons 11, 12 and 13 sure have their flaws (!!!), but I sure don't miss the dour, cranky, downright unpleasant brothers' dynamic of seasons 8 and 9.

1. Route 666 The racial theme was handled with the subtlety and nuance of a ton of bricks. This episode is also the first of the show to feature a sex scene, which is fairly noteworthy in my book (lol). The concept of a racist truck sounds so fucking stupid on paper, but I didn't really feel that this one was atrociously bad. At least we got to see yet another new side of Dean that helped to round him out as a complex character. 2. Houses of the Holy A really great one that hit on some heavy themes (with subtlety and nuance this time!) and demonstrated that this show was more than what it advertised itself as. Dean's views on God and angels made a lot of sense to me. 3. Ghostfacers I can handle annoying characters if the show clearly knows that they are annoying and gives them their just desserts for being stupid. Sam and Dean are also very entertaining from an outsider's perspective. 4. After School Special Stank of SuperSpecial!Sam and 1-DJock!Dean (barf). Brock Kelly looked the part well enough, but he couldn't soften Dean like Jensen could. I also couldn't find it in myself to care too much for Sam's endless "I JUST WANT TO BE NORMAL" navel-gazing angst when his older brother, who's had it far worse AND had no one to complain to, was right next to him. 5. The Song Remains the Same Anna's about-face was rushed and made no sense for her character. I liked the introduction of Michael and the awesome set-up for what could come (but didn't). 6. Unforgiven Sam being a bullheaded idiot and ignoring Dean's valid concerns. Dean chasing his brother around and wringing his hands like a nanny. That terrible CGI fire shot at the very end. 7. The Slice Girls I don't have a lot of thoughts for this one. Obviously a MOTW, so Emma was not going to live past the episode. There went that potential. 8. Everybody Hates Hitler Dean's reaction to Aaron was cute. He was also weirdly proud of it when he said, "He was my gay thing." 9. The Purge The ending scene colors everything else for me. I like Donna and lot and I liked that Dean had productive things to do during the hunt. I didn't like that he was dumped on at the end with the cruelest speech anyone has ever said on the show, coming from one of the two main characters (that we're supposed to like!). Nothing else on the show comes close to this and hopefully nothing ever will. The fury and outrage I felt actually spurred me on to make my first forum post on the IMDb boards, so there's that, I guess. 10. Halt and Catch Fire What I remember most is how Dean was written to be ogling college students. It was icky and out of character. Claire was almost that age, so what the actual fuck? My headcanon is that either the MoC was making Dean "hungry" for everything, or that he was trying to curb his bloodlust with other outlets. Still, ew. 11. Love Hurts I like that Dean followed his instincts and saved the woman by transferring the monster's attention. I may have lower standards, but I liked the conversation at the end. FINALLY, Sam showed unconditional support and knew that Dean had no control over his attraction to Amara. That may be a low bar, but after The Purge, I was over the moon. 12. Family Feud I had to look this one up to remember what it was about. Meh. 13. Devil's Bargain Ewwwww to the sexualized grace sucking. I liked Amael, though I liked her even more when she decimated Lucifer's entire existence in 13.18. Dean had no reason to be there.

On the rare occasions that we see Dean in pain onscreen, it's always directly connected to the plot, whereas for Sam and Cas it usually seems excessive in its detail and duration. The Christmas episode with Sam's nail and Dean's tooth is a perfect summation of that weird disparity, although I'm sure it wasn't intentionally so. I also prefer Jensen's more downplayed expressions of pain. It's consistent with Dean's character and helps to avoid the Dramatic Suffering Woobie Syndrome.

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sure I'll also be coming back to it several more times, when my Hellatus pain grows too great! I do have to confess, however, that I don't subscribe to the video's "thesis" that Dean tragically succumbed to fate in the end, as if his possession by Michael were inevitable. For one thing, it wasn't even our Michael, and for another, the entire possession and killing of Lucifer was on Dean's terms. He dictated the conditions and he got to kill Lucifer with Michael as the battery. Instead of being merely a weapon and tool for some "greater" being, Michael was the weapon and tool of "lowly human" Dean. I like to think that that was Dean's final "fuck you" to Zachariah. Regardless, I still love the tragic tone of the video. My favorite part may be the guitar solo, when we see Dean's various kills escalating up to his final battle with Lucifer.

What I meant was that this video ingeniously made it seem, through great editing, that Dean's Michael endgame was the plan all along, which we categorically know to not be the case. It's fans that do most of the work when it comes to thematically connecting various seasons of the show into a cohesive whole. The writers nowadays just fling things at the wall and gauge the viewers' reactions, and once in a while, by sheer chance or desperation, they hit upon something that makes thematic sense and develops an earlier story/character element further.

And bonus, she's a huge Dean fan!

Awesome tribute to Dean that connects plot from season 4 and 5 to 13 in a way that the writers frankly don't deserve. I've watched it multiple times for how well the song fits and the scenes that were chosen!

At this point, the characters, their history, and the world they inhabit are so fleshed out and developed that they'll pretty much write themselves if you let them. Just throw a conflict that personally impacts one/all of the main characters and watch them go, and be open to letting them surprise you. Yet these writers are so determined to get from point A to point B that they'll mutilate and contort these wonderful creations to serve THEIR purpose, rather than the other way around. The best characters and stories shouldn't serve the writers; the writers should serve those characters and stories. I WISH the SPN world had better, more invested writers, because it deserves them. Fewer episodes and a higher budget wouldn't hurt, either.

Well, yeah, but Ruby was also offering those things to Sam because she had an ulterior motive. I was just comparing Ruby and Benny and arguing that Benny was a much more trustworthy individual from the get-go. You're arguing something completely different, and yes, I agree that Sam was jealous of Benny and unnecessarily antagonistic toward him, since he's given monsters the benefit of the doubt multiple times before and after.

Yeah, Toni Baloney's scenes with Sam were precisely what I was thinking of in terms of fetishistic torture scenes (not to mention that ridiculous, creepy sex dream she put him in). Dean got a few punches, none of the torture that Toni was threatening him with, and picked the manacles the first chance he got. I will forever be bitter about Cas' beatdown of Dean. We were clearly meant to be on Cas' side, despite Dean having no choice but to take it and pray for it to be over soon. I certainly felt bad for him, but for once that actually wasn't the show's intention.

Yeah, the onscreen sufferings of Sam and Cas far outstrip Dean's. I'm reminded of Red Meat (blergh), which took extreme care to show us every EXCRUCIATING second of Sam's huffing and puffing in pain while he did everything as slowly as humanly possible. I could never imagine Dean in a role like that, in which some horrible injury is drawn out for uninterrupted minutes so as to linger on his agonized groans. In the actual episode, it got old (and kind of funny) real quick.

Ok, so I've been mulling some thoughts over for a while now. Has anyone noticed that throughout the entire show's run, there have been way more Sam and Cas torture scenes while Dean has practically none? The scenes I'm referring to are the exploitative and borderline fetishistic scenarios where Sam or Cas are entirely helpless and forced to suffer horrific pain with nothing to do but scream nobly. I can't help but feel that this is related to their gradual woobification and cinnamon roll status over time. The only similar scenes for Dean that I can recall are in 1.22, with Azazel, and in 10.03, where Dean is strapped to a chair and forced to endure "necessary" torture at Sam's hands. We never saw any scenes of Dean in hell aside from 3.16, despite us getting hit over the head with Sam's memories of the Cage over multiple seasons. Basically, we've rarely seen Dean in a situation where he's completely helpless and suffering as a passive victim. When he actually is in a sticky situation, he's always working some angle for escape, which I feel has helped to make him the character with the most agency and drive. Of course, the downside is that both fans and characters hold him responsible for everyone else's choices, since he comes across as having the most control over things, even when he actually doesn't. Does anyone have any ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy between Dean vs. Sam and Cas? My theory is that the writers use "torture the woobie" as a cheap way to cultivate sympathy for the characters rather than directly address and explore the reasons for why they would need an audience sympathy boost. ETA: I should add that Sam and Cas almost always try to escape (and sometimes succeed), but not before it's hammered home that they're SUFFERING SO HARD, YOU GUYS. With Dean, he usually gets away before anything terrible and exploitative happens to him. I don't know, it's just interesting to me.

There's also the MASSIVE difference in that Benny wasn't getting Dean hooked on demon blood or some other obviously sketchy substance. He also wasn't stringing him along, nor was he pumping up Dean's ego and trying to push him toward some agenda. ETA: Also, when Dean learned that Ruby saved Sam's life, he put aside his completely justified hatred of demons and thanked her. Benny getting Dean out of Purgatory meant fuck-all to Sam.

I, for one, hope he never regains his old strength. It might even make him *gasp* interesting and multi-dimensional!

It was repeatedly established that both Gabriel and Lucifer would get their power back, with time. Of course, the amount of time it would take was never stated so that they could do what they pleased with the plot. I would've preferred that Jack stopped being the all-powerful Nougat Sue entirely, but since Sam outright said that Jack would recover, he probably will.

There was still grace left glowing in Jack's neck, so he's going to recharge. Sam confirmed it too when he said that Jack could regain his power and defeat Lucifer. I guess Jack's need to recharge will be the reason that he can't just yank Michael out of Dean in 14.01.

Ah, well I saw it as them training Jack so that they all could save the world together. I don't see Dean ever being willing to retire if there's still things to be done. He doesn't seem like a "passing the torch" type, or the type to sit back and let others do what he believes is his own duty, as ordained by Chuck.

This seems like a pretty unfavorable interpretation of what Dean said. He only wanted to retire if he knew the world was safe. He's not going to kick back unless it's already done, so it's not like he's going to let Jack do all the work while eating bon bons at the beach. If this is about him excluding Jack from his dream retirement scenario, Dean didn't mention Mary, either.

That is HAUNTING, holy shit!

I only ever consciously noticed it in 10.03, when Demon!Dean was playing cat and mouse with his brother. It was obviously a deliberate choice, but a teeny bit distracting lol.

Thanks! Jack's redemption wouldn't have necessarily been out of the cards, either. Or we could have still had the Michael!Dean cliffhanger, since maybe an archangel in his true vessel would be immune to Jack's brainwashing. The possibilities were endless, and could have easily slotted in-between season 13's beginning and ending.