BabySpinach

I don't post SPN on my Tumblr blog at all, FYI, but I do post art! Not as often as I should, but that's always the way with us "creators", lol.

Hey @juppschmitz and @hunenka, welcome to the board. I follow both of you on Tumblr (I'm a-jasminator on there) and was pleasantly surprised to see you here! Glad you found this forum. It's my favorite (and pretty much only) place to discuss the show with a bunch of similarly passionate people!

I do wonder, are there any other characters on TV of Jensen's physical type (tall, hunky, un-nerdy as possible) who are allowed to act as blatantly CUTE as Dean Winchester? I keep thinking back to 14.04, specifically Dean's reaction to the David Yeager figure's catchphrases and his horror movie binge while sprawled on a bed eating pizza. You'd think that a character with Dean's horrific past and Jensen's looks would be a strictly serious, brooding, badass type, but he's so often allowed to express genuine, unabashed childlike delight. Action hero + blatant nerd is a very unusual combination, and I feel that it's a big contributor to Dean's status as a genre fiction icon. Seriously, in all the TV I've watched, I don't think I've seen any other character like this: a Grade A all-American heartthrob type acting like a happy, boyish nerd (and coming across as even more likable for it). Most of the credit definitely goes to Jensen's natural knack for little non-verbal gestures and physical tics. He's always in the moment, reacting in small instinctive ways as if he actually were Dean. And Jensen understands, maybe subconsciously, that to be visibly passionate and enthusiastic is to be lovable. ETA: And this is the SAME character, in the very next episode!

I think it's significant that even after he saw whatever it was in Dean's head, he still talked to Dean as Dean and gloated about the traps that Michael left for hunters. If Michael was hiding in Dean, I guess he must have ordered the djinn to shut the hell up and just play along? The other option is that Michael isn't in Dean at all, and he instead left some kind of protection on his favorite vessel. Those are the two most likely scenarios for me. I still don't think it was the nightmares themselves, because I believe there would have been additional clarification if that were the case. I feel as if Dean would have commented on how disturbing his own nightmares were before bashing in the djinn's head, just to resolve the ambiguity. And his deepest fears weren't an established aspect of the episode; the episode's main story was centered around Michael's dastardly plans. It's also kind of weird that Dean's immunity wasn't brought up at all at the end, as if the writers just wanted us to kind of forget about it until a big reveal in the future. But usually, if there's something being hidden, we have a character asking the question and getting an unsatisfactory and clearly wrong answer (ie. 11.11), just to keep it in the viewer's heads. Regardless, it's really fun to speculate! I admittedly have a soft spot for Dean being immune to supernatural influences (Famine, Amara's smoke, Rowena's magic vs. the MoC).

Several of us seem to agree that the Sam-pimping only ended up accomplishing the exact opposite, making Sam's actual achievements not match up with the hyperbolic Tell of every character kissing up to him. That's obviously bad writing, but then I wonder how they simultaneously made Dean look good (arguably better) in the same episode. He didn't get praised once, but he was competent and empathetic and badass. He was his usual tactful self in the heart-to-heart with Sasha (as he was obviously written to be) and was also the one to jump start the search for Maggie in the first place while Sam was about to drown in his guilt (by the way, I bought more into Dean's natural command with that one "Let's go" line than Sam's entire leadership arc). He was allowed to be smart while figuring out the MOTW and then got to bash its brains in ie. actual SHOWN badassery rather than informed. Is it because the writer just wasn't trying as hard to push a specific agenda, hence Dean came off looking more authentically cool? Or was Meredith Glynn having a silent struggle with her higher-ups? She's shown in the past that she knows how to write sympathetic, badass Dean without having to Tell us so profusely via in-story mouthpieces. It feels like the whole Sam-pimping thing was just cobbled in because she was told she had to.

Absolutely. What also leaps to mind is the ending scene of 13.18, not that long ago. Both Cas and Sam are hesitant to break the bad news of Gabriel's departure to Dean, and they come off as lieutenants who have failed him. Dean's explosion of rage is all the more devastating because it's the leader who's losing it. That final shot, of Dean in the foreground and Cas and Sam behind each shoulder, was also very telling. And NONE of this needed to be textual. It was all in the subtext of the script, the acting, and the filmmaking, and was all the more effective for it.

Seriously! As soon as Dean (or Jensen) walked in, he stood out like a beacon among the nameless, colorless mass of Sam's pets. I'm sure it was not the original intent. Sam just doesn't wield the same commanding aura. He's way too concerned about others' opinions of him and doesn't exactly exude a vibe of confidence or assertiveness. I was hoping they were going for a reluctant leader arc in 14.01, but it seems they're forging straight ahead with Super Special Leader Sammy who just needed oxygen-sucking Dean out of the way for a few weeks to truly come into his own. The writers are determined to stuff a square-shaped peg into a round-shaped hole. Now Dean, I would follow off a cliff (as previous characters actually have, and plausibly so!).

DEAN IS STILL PART OF THE MYTHARC, HALLE-FUCKING-LUJAH! This is everything that should have happened in 14.03: monsters recognizing Dean, confusing him with Michael, trying not to harm the archangel's favorite meat suit. Kaia was such a Mary Sue that she singlehandedly delayed one of the main character's stories by two episodes, it seems. I believe that the Djinn recoiling was due to something that Michael had done. If it had just been the nightmares themselves that unsettled the Djinn, I feel like we would have gotten flashes of what he saw. The fact that we have no idea, and the "You!" afterwards, makes me optimistic of a more nefarious situation on our hands. Of course Michael would take steps to protect, as Dean himself said in 5.18, this "sweet ass"! And if the Djinn didn't want to harm Dean, it means that Michael fully intends to return to his vessel at some point, and that he likely left Dean on purpose. I gotta say, I'm digging both the mystery and the implication of Dean's enduring status as the strongest, most prized vessel. He's hanging onto the mytharc by his fingernails, it feels, but he's still very much a part of it at present. Leader Sam is a flop for me. It's hammered in too hard that he's the greatest, bestest, most competent leader there ever was. And this week, Bobby was the designated strawman who dared to question Saint Sam the Great and Powerful, just so he could eat his words at the end of the episode. As with Jack, multiple people trip over themselves to reassure and encourage him, so why the hell should I be invested in Sam's struggles when I know that there's droves of characters just waiting to pick him back up? Also, the fact remains that sending Maggie out to hunt was FUCKING DUMB. She's a liability who's needed to be rescued/resurrected/looked after in every one of her appearances. Bobby had a point, but he wasn't supposed to be right, so he just wasn't. Dean was a natural leader for more than a decade of the show and no one ever brought it up, partly because they didn't need to. Dean SHOWED us how competent he was, how other characters naturally orbited around him, and we were allowed to observe this for ourselves without having it crammed down our throats. Show, not tell! The more I hear about how awesome Chief is supposed to be, the less I'm inclined to believe it. And how about having someone disagree with him for a change and NOT get proven 100% wrong by the end of the episode? How about a balanced conflict of opinion/strategy where both sides concede in some capacity? The debate over killing Michael!Dean would have been perfect for that, but that scenario was apparently a big fat lie on the part of TPTB. I just LOOOOVE how Sam's insecurities about being a leader are given more screentime than Dean's trauma from archangel possession. And Mary fawns all over Sam, but I don't think she's said a single complimentary thing about Dean, in or out of his presence, since her return in season 12. Not one comforting word to him in this episode, either. Mobby still squicks me out due to the chasmic 30+ year age gap, and I also just don't care. Mary would prefer spending time with her new boy toy than her own sons, one of whom is still struggling with a massive trauma? Fine, it's not like I was expecting anything more from her at this point. She can go gallivanting off with Bobby all she wants, as long as she's off my screen. Dean and Michael remain my anchor to this season, and I'm genuinely looking forward to learning more about the missing parts of the possession. Dean was competent, personable, and smart this week, too, which was a big bonus for me. As long as these two things are present, I can handle the rest of the stupidity (though not before bitching about it first!).

That's a great point. In the end, there's no substitution for authentic effort. They can have Sam or anyone else kill as many powerful bad guys as they want, but what sticks way longer in my mind are Jensen's fight scenes in 14.03, 13.19, 13.17, 13.14, 9.11 etc. Jensen actually walks the walk, and it greatly pays off in the viewers' perception of his character in the long run. Meanwhile, Sam's "awesome kill/combat moments" usually consist of him pointing and shooting a gun, and they're nowhere near as memorable or badass. When he does engage in fisticuffs, such as in the premiere, it's typically underwhelming. 14.01's fight mostly consisted of him getting choked, with minimal choreography and a luckily easily distracted demon.

I agree, but the show is pretty inconsistent with its attitude toward Dean's looks. At some points, it actually is addressed; I found it hilarious that Michael called him pretty ie. Jensen got to call himself pretty (in front of his wife, as well!). The female werewolf also called him elegant. But other times, Dean gets rejected for having a dad bod (11.13), gets pointedly blown off in favor of Cas/his brother (12.12, 13.15), is ludicrously called "equally pretty" as Cas (13.14). Cas in general seemed to get way more favorable attention for his looks in season 13, which was kind of weird, but I've also never personally found Misha particularly attractive, TBH. It just depends on the writer, I guess, and it varies on an episode-by-episode basis. But what never changes is Jensen, so it's jarring when the writers choose to actively deride his looks, especially for the purposes of propping up another character as being more desirable than Dean. The dissonance arises because we actually have functioning eyes.

One eye-roll worthy moment was when Sam got compared to a pretty girl ("soft, delicate features" WTF? On what planet?) while Dean got compared to a schlubby Average Joe. Lol okay, just keep contradicting the evidence of our functioning eyeballs, go right ahead. Only a (likely straight male) writer who's clueless as to what soft and delicate features on a man actually look like would have *DEAN* say that to *SAM*. "Soft and delicate" is a more objective feature than "attractiveness," by the way; I'm not quantifying or comparing hotness levels here. Dean has also made comments about Sam's "princess hair" before, but the only time that Sam has ever mentioned Dean's attractiveness in any capacity was way back in 6.22 when Sam forgot who Dean was and referred to him as a "male model type." That was hilarious (and accurate). Seems like he can only remove the Big-Brother-Dean Goggles when he loses his memories completely, lol.

This was a pleasant surprise, and it once again proves how simple it is to write a decent Supernatural episode. Have a focused story without constant cutaways to a boring B-plot, prioritize the actual main characters, and don't waste valuable screentime on bland, obnoxious Mary Sues. Voila, a decently entertaining and inoffensive story at the very least. Davy Perez has certainly come a long way from forgetting Dean's very existence in the third acts of his episodes, so props for that. He also wrote Dean as consistently lovable and (mostly) competent. Dean lying on his bed eating pizza and binging horror movies was goddamn adorable. One of the many reasons I find him the most vibrant and authentic character on the show is because he often has little scenes where he's enjoying himself like a regular human being. Even with the magnitude of tragedy and pain in his life, he can still find joy in the simple things. For whatever reason, Sam almost never gets these little grounding moments. Fourteen seasons in, and I still don't really know what Sam does for fun. The writers have implied that his tastes are generically higher-brow, from food to art to society, but they've never specified beyond that, which is a bit of a shame. They've made his character, in general, depend more on the main story, while Dean seems more self-sustaining and is consistently interesting no matter what he does eg. sit in bed, eat pizza, and watch horror movies (this is heavily IMO). Sam's ending speech was about as good as I could have hoped for, from these writers. Perez hit most of the right notes and had Sam acknowledge the nobility and heroism of Dean's choice to say yes. It was framed as the right thing to do rather than a weak or foolish decision. For better and worse, "love" on this show is always an acceptable justification to do crazy, reckless shit (but only if you're not compromising your morals/principles/loved ones' trust). I don't understand why Sam's severely overdue words were saved for this episode rather than the previous one, but I guess Berens wanted a maximum-angst blue-balls ending for some dumb reason or other. I also refuse to take Dean's reference to Sam as "Chief" as anything other than sardonic ribbing until explicitly stated otherwise. Dean has never deferred to anyone, not even Death or God. One small observation I'd like to add is that the recap reiterated that we don't know why Michael left Dean, and it notably didn't include any footage of Kaia Sue stabbing him. This gives me hope that it wasn't, in fact, the spear that was responsible. ETA: Actually, I was mistaken, but the footage didn't immediately follow the question of why Michael left, so I'm still holding to my spec. I found this a middling episode that was miles better than 14.01 and 14.03. I wish there had been Michael flashbacks, since there are still a lot of unanswered questions, but this ep wasn't a bad one to tide me over for the time being. And a final thought: Jensen looked goddamn amazing. Glasses, checkered suit, funky socks and all.

HOLY FUCKING GOD. He must know EXACTLY what he's doing to us. This also feels like a big HINT HINT to DC, too. The costume looks good enough to be authentic for a character in a film/TV series. Looks like a promo shot for a new role, honestly. Makes me wish it were true!

I dearly wish that something tangible and plot-related happens to Dean. There have been additional hints from the writers that there's something up with him, and that it will gradually show itself over several episodes. Even back in SDCC, Eugenie said that there would be a bit of mystery for the first six episodes. Some took that to mean Michael!Dean's reign, but now we know that to not be the case. What I don't want is for this "toll" to just be yet another assload of guilt piled onto Dean's shoulders while other characters get the plot. Enough, already!

Let's not forget that Kaia is an unrepentant murderer who killed her own counterpart while trying to kill another innocent. She also tried to feed Sam and Dean to a giant troll. Yet she gets to mouth off to one of the main characters about what a weak bully he is, as if she has some sort of moral high ground and we're supposed to feel sorry for how Michael punched her in the face and Dean tried to intimidate her. The fact is that no character on Supernatural has a right to stand above Dean and criticize his moral caliber because they've all done worse than he has, know nothing of his life, and/or owe their lives to him. But Kaia's words were clearly meant to carry some weight, given the framing and the lack of anyone coming to his defense at any point in the story. Those claims were bullshit on their own, but for a morally bankrupt character to spout them without a hint of self-awareness shows a lack of nuance and critical thinking on the part of the writer. He's so blinded by his pet Sue's awesomeness that he doesn't realize what a stupid hypocrite he turned her into. Hypocrisy is the death knell for any character, villain or hero, that you want to make likable. I hated this just as much as I hated Bella's speech to Dean in 3.06, when she made the ludicrous claim that the brothers were no different than she was, despite her being a murderous thief who cared only for herself and regularly fucked over innocents. Yet her argument went unchallenged, which gave her words more weight than they deserved. It's the same kind of dissonance between intent and conveyance that we now have with Kaia.

A small consolation is that Michael did easily win, at first. His mistake was going for the spear before bothering to knock Kaia unconscious/kill her. I guess it was supposed to highlight Michael's arrogance that allowed for him to be caught off-guard, but his decision to physically fight her in the first place was too mind-bogglingly nonsensical for me to look beyond that. I really want a future scene where Kaia tries to go after Michael again and he just freezes her in place or knocks her out (or just smites her), then gives a throwaway line about not needing to "test" her anymore. I would find that stupidly satisfying. But then that would imply that Kaia isn't, in fact, the most super-special-warrior-wunderkind in all the universes, which is clearly unacceptable. I also like that he called her Wild One. There's nothing remotely "wild" about her perfectly shampooed and conditioned hair, completely clean face, and spotless ripoff-Sith robe. Purgatory Dean looked far wilder and more savage than she could ever be.

Jensen's expression here was genuinely unsettling, much scarier than anyone else on this show has been for a while. He looked crazed and manic, and so very unlike Dean. He certainly didn't need a ridiculous accent or distracting facial tics to be completely distinguishable from the usual role he plays. The only issue is that this perky-yet-dead-eyed version of Michael doesn't really line up with Jensen's portrayal of him in the premiere, but I'm willing to let that slide. One thing I'm genuinely looking forward to is more Michael flashbacks. Story answers wouldn't hurt, either.

I disagree. In the previous episode, Michael smote someone without even touching or looking at them. That would have been noteworthy even back in seasons 4 or 5. Yet in this episode they had a teenage human trip and stab him. It's very jarring when these two instances are back-to-back like that.

Remember back in the season 13 finale when Dean shot Jack several times and bluntly told him he was acting like a psycho? It wasn't framed in a negative light, and Dean came off as very practical and smart on his feet rather than some big ol' meanie-pants. But now, he just needs to call Jack small and unable to fight and we get Sam and Cas glaring at him while Nougat Sue slouches off to mope. Then Dean calls himself a dick. Just four episodes, and such a huge difference in framing. Jack had already been consistently coddled in season 13, but now his entourage of perpetually supportive babysitters have cranked it up to 11, just because he's *GASP* a regular human now! Boohoo. Dean didn't get the memo (because he was busy suffering possession by a literal archangel) and stayed his typical straightforward self, but I guess it's now a capital crime to not dance around the truth for the sake of a self-pitying "Dean doesn't matter" manchild's delicate feelings. What a thin-skinned wimp, and what a thin-skinned writer for narratively siding with him.

1. If he wanted her spear that badly, he would/should have chased her. He has wings. He can literally teleport to wherever she tries to run, especially if his wound wasn't serious. 2. He clearly prioritized the weapon over getting Kaia as an ally, saying that he had no problem with killing her if he needed to. So why didn't he? Even if Michael chose not to use his powers, Kaia still shouldn't have gotten the better of him. It was cringey and pandering and demolished Michael's hard-earned credibility as a true threat. It also makes no sense for Michael to just abandon her after getting poked and sending monsters to finish the job instead. As for the rest, you're under the assumption that it wasn't Kaia's spear that threw Michael out of Dean, and that their fight took place before 14.02. Honestly, that's how I want it to be as well. It would fit better with the timeline and wouldn't be quite as lame as a prod with a sharp stick that somehow casts out the strongest archangel from his perfect vessel. If the fight DID take place before 14.02, then the wound was clearly not debilitating, given Michael's 100% smugness, self-assurance, and power throughout the episode itself. This also means that Michael left Dean on purpose, for his own reasons, after springing a "trap," which makes it all a lot more interesting. Michael's weird trap is what gives me the slight hope that he did leave on purpose. Otherwise, it's just nonsensical to even target Sam, Mary, and Bobby in the first place, with nothing but a handful of werewolves, no less. Plus, Michael actually teleported to them before he left Dean. Did he suddenly get hit by a delayed reaction from the wound and immediately have to flee his vessel, just before he confronted the hunters? And if it instead took place in the direct aftermath of his fight with Kaia, and he was wounded and being forced out of his vessel, why would he still proceed with the trap and show up there? Seems more likely that he deliberately dropped Dean off with his family to serve some unclear end. But we're being logical here, and that isn't necessarily the writers' strong suit. I do feel that they're somehow going to make Kaia and her spear responsible for Michael getting out of Dean, no matter the facts or plot holes. My head hurts from trying to make sense of it all.

It boggles my mind that these fully-grown, professional writers somehow hit every branch of the Mary Sue Tree on their way down into crap. Do they not understand what competent character writing is? Are they so naive that they believe "unflappable, invulnerable, physically strong" = "automatically cool and badass"? Or that "sugar-sweet, angsty, self-absorbed" = "automatically compelling and sympathetic"? It's incredible how any actual maturity and nuance in the writing has declined to such a degree. It's much harder to write well-rounded characters than one-dimensional Sues who act exactly one (1) way and serve only a singular purpose in the narrative, but that's why these dunderheads get paid for it! Jack's purpose is to make misty-eyed fangirls swoon and feel sorry for him. Kaia's purpose is to be a "badass" "feminist" power fantasy for the female demographic. Unless some major restructuring goes on, that's all they'll ever be. Writing characters to fit a specific agenda is the exact wrong way to go about it, not to mention a complete rookie move. I've mentioned this before, so I won't go into it further. The writers have no self-awareness, nor do they have the capacity to step back and actually look at their work from a more detached, analytical standpoint. Is this story focused? Is it interesting and compelling? Do the main (!) characters get tested and challenged, and do they respond in ways unique to their personalities and pasts? Do the repercussions and consequences of their actions mean something to the greater narrative? Berens' tweet gushing over Kaia, his own character, like a teenage fanboy was an ominous harbinger of things to come. He'll never write her as an authentic person, and as a result she'll never be interesting. But she WILL rack up a bunch of wins without ever failing, breaking a sweat or struggling in the slightest, and that is about the most boring thing a character can do. What sucks is that characters like Rowena, Jody, Donna, and Ketch weren't written to adhere to any specific agenda, so the writers are clearly still somewhat capable, yet those characters would never be the ones to steal the focus of the mytharc from the protagonists. Instead, it's the dirt-boring little Mary Sues, which is even more painful.

I saw that tweet, too. Gives me Robbie Thompson vibes, back when he was gushing all over his own little pet, Charlie. No professional writer should ever view their characters this way, salivating over their awesomeness as if they were real people. That's the purview of fans, and it smacks of unrestrained ego and self-satisfaction when the writer does it.

So if we're concluding that Kaia's spear was responsible for Michael leaving his vessel, then the only time that Kaia/Michael fight could have happened was in-between his killing of the vampire girl (Michael's final scene, where he didn't look remotely distressed, was clearly at full power, and was proceeding with his trap plan) and Dean's reunion with everyone, at a place that Michael had teleported to. That's really weird. Not to mention, Michael apparently bothered to put on a clean, unbloodied shirt somewhere along the way. I'm not fully convinced of the idea that Kaia's spear was responsible for Michael's departure. But the show always succeeds in disappointing me, so who knows? That also throws Michael's whole trap thing into question, too. Were a few werewolves really all he'd set up? Why would he even bother targeting Sam, Mary, and Bobby, anyway? It's not like they were slowing him down or impeding him in any fashion. It just feels like there's more to it, and having Dean return to his family seemed deliberate on Michael's part. I know, I know, I'm probably giving too much credit to the writers on all this. But oh, the possibilities! If it's not, in fact, Kaia's spear that got Michael out, then the story immediately opens up and gets way more interesting. Sigh...

Then Michael sure is a multi-tasking, busy little bee, isn't he? But hasn't Kaia been running from the monsters for at least a few days, if Jody got wind of headless bodies? She also said that every time she stopped, more would come, implying a longer span of time.

But then I wonder why Michael had to leave at that precise moment, just before he confronted Sam, Mary, and Bobby. His fight with Kaia must have taken place before that, so unless the wound had a corrosive effect, he seemed to bear it pretty well. And even then, he smote the vampire bait girl just before he left Dean, so he can't have been in that bad of a shape. This only kind of makes sense if Michael fought Kaia in-between him setting the trap and going to Sam and co.'s location, but that seems really unlikely. The timeline is just too muddled right now.