Pop Tart

Agreed with both of these. I can't quite remember the sequence but I think she'd already been questioned by the FBI and talked with the lawyer her mother arranged before she cleared out Allison's apartment for storage and "found" the flash drives. So she had some idea already that she was perhaps in legal peril. So that when she looked at the flash drives and saw what was on them she didn't just turn them over to the FBI, she did so with her lawyer and in exchange for not being prosecuted. And I give her no shade if that's the route she took. Of course she'd seek to protect herself and was legally entitled to do so. Jus as Mark, Sarah, etc did. But the way it was glossed over and preserved her saintliness and victimhood stuck in my craw a bit. Many gave Sarah the side-eye for how she showed her brand - and I even got a sense of Catherine giving her shade last night when she mentioned it. And also how The Vow was a vehicle for them to get their side out. I kind of think that India is going that same route - though she'll be using her experiences to create some kind of self-help venture to talk to future lawyers? And clearly this was India's vehicle towards that endeavor. I noticed last night that she was one of the executive producers for this documentary so of course it's going to present her in the most positive light possible. And that's what it did. I did also note that while India has said that she still talks to Sarah, but not Mark, she did mention in the episode that Mark got out of nxivm almost as soon as he learned about DOS, then Sarah and Nippy. Oh and total side note: loved that because Nippy is a hothead his confrontation with Lauren was overheard by many so the DOS secret was outed to many in nxivm at that point who all began to jump ship in droves after that.

I thought she hadn't contacted anyone because by the time she realized he wasn't in Cleveland she already knew about the murder and Jonathan's disappearance coming on top of that made her start to question things. Not that she jumped right to he killed Elena, but the oddness of it on top of the murder and police coming to question her, made her a bit paranoid. As we saw. So it made sense to me that she didn't jump right to calling people to let them know she couldn't find Jonathan. I'm enjoying this a lot and thought the pacing of this second episode was well done as Grace's knowledge and dread increased, I could feel her losing her grip a little bit. And I genuinely jumped when Jonathan appeared at the beach house. I had it in my head that we might not actually see him in real time (just in flashbacks) for a few more episodes, so that was a surprise. And that she immediately called the police and reported him? Also a nice surprise.

“I believed that the things they were having me do were at their core good, everything. I didn’t question it.” I re-wound and wrote down India’s words. She was talking about taking on her own slaves and the things she was doing with Keith and the branding, etc. She kept doing all that was asked because she was convinced it was for a greater good. And this is true of the others as well. India heard all the same indoctrination stuff, plus she was actually a member of DOS having things done to her and doing them to others and yet she still thought it was for the good. Granted she was a young woman and Mark an older guy, but that doesn’t mean he believed it was for the good any less than she did. Though I think Allison and the others who were on that first level were also victimized and brainwashed, their level of involvement in the criminal facilitation for Keith does put them on a different level than the rest of the organization. When I look at Allison in the videos and pictures it seems clear that she like the Bronfmans, Nikki Cline, Lauren Salzman, etc. was so completely subsumed into this thing and into Keith that she lost herself. When India talked about her always being a performer and having absolutely no sense of her actual self, that rang so true. There’s no there there except for what Keith built.

Granted I tend to root for Kathryn over Cam. There's just something about those wounded, genuinely screwed up cast members vs the my life is practically perfect in every way, that works for me. But I will say that Leva's explanation of why Kathryn would make up rumors didn't hold a lot of water for me. She hasn't had major beef with Cam in a while and so them showing flashbacks to 4 years ago? Not a reason to make up rumors and I don't think Kathryn would go that far out on a ledge. Now Kathryn hearing about the affair rumor from someone she considered a reliable source and sharing it on camera because she's never been a big fan of Cam? That I'd believe. And Craig's over-acted response made it clear to me that he had heard the rumors too. Also and furthermore...I think the scene with Craig and Leva was probably filmed sometime after the spilling-the-beans scene - in an effort at damage-control. Probably when Cam quit the show. I think a lot of the scenes we saw last night were added after Cam quit. All the discussions between Shep and others about whether Cam would come to his party? How she stepped back because of the tone last year but she needs to get out? All seemed very staged to me to cover for why Cam wasn't there.

I thought that was the shampoo in the cabin’s bathroom so it was his mom’s? Oh and was that a different actress playing Madison?

Did we really need flashbacks to the days they were born. Again? So tired of Randall and all his pain. How many years now has he been processing his birth? And all that time he spent with William and never asked when he was born? Or looked for records about his birth mom’s death? First hour went pretty quickly but second just dragged. And of course Randall was the one who realized about Rebecca’s medication.

Malia’s face when he claimed that did not look like she believed him. When she was on WWHL she said they’d broken up because he cheated on her. Andy commented about how they were so lovey-dovey at the reunion. I didn’t see that tonight. When Andy asked if they were together Malia hesitated a long time then said they didn’t know or something like that. I think she knew or strongly suspected that he’d cheated on her. And I’m mean enough that I was enjoying how she was squirming there. No amount of maritime law speechifying will make me be on her side. I think Jess, for all that she’s not super quick with a comeback, is smarter than I’ve given her credit for. Though they weren’t letting her speak, she did have fair points tonight. And I agree that she was gaslit by Rob, who is a lot sleazier than he was portrayed.

Yeah, not sure if enjoying is the right term because so much of this is just so sick and twisted, but I'm with you. It's been discussed about how even though these are documentaries, there's still always a point of view. With The Vow it was Mark, Sarah, Bonnie and here it's India. As she was describing all her feelings about being drawn in and the unease she felt at various times, I kept thinking about the women who ended up becoming her slaves. Did they have all those same feelings about India 'seducing' them into this thing that India had about Allison? What processes did they have to go through to be "good" slaves? I'll be curious if this doc touches on them at all. They did say last night that of all the 150 or so slaves only one agreed to talk - and I wish we would have had a lot more from her point of view. This is not to say that India wasn't victimized, she was, but I'd like to see more from the women who weren't performers by profession or adjacent to that. India is giving a performance of her feelings - just as Sarah, Mark and Bonnie did - as someone said, there were no tears in that breakdown. And though I may sound like I'm skeptical about India, I'm not. I believe her. I believe that things happened the way she's describing. I just wish these documentaries didn't both hinge on the "name" people. Give me more of the woman who grew up in a cult and then found herself in one as an adult. I am appreciating that they have the experts interjecting facts about how psychological manipulation works and how cults, and other control groups, work.

Captain Sandy always insists that it's the guests that are important. Have to have good food at all costs, So chefs throwing tantrums? Allowed if they make good food and the guests are happy. Guests want to have all the toys out for a half hour? Do it if that makes them happy. All about the guests. But in all her rants about Hannah being checked out, Hannah not wanting to be there, Hannah not finding joy in being a yachtie? Never once can she point to a time when the guests complained about Hannah. Never once have we seen a serious incident where guests felt un-accomodated (just made that word up) by Hannah. I was watching some of last years episodes, and Sandy was all over Hannah because the of the table decor, and the stew, can't remember her name (but not Aesha) made sure to do a couple "pretty" settings (though I would have hated all that fabric on the table) so that Sandy wouldn't come down on Hannah about it. But no where in there was a guest complaining about Hannah. And thinking back I can't remember a guest having a major issue with Hannah. I think there was a time when a guest thought she had a cranky face too much (but that could have been Kate). And I'll admit I don't think I've seen every episode of every season. But if Sandy's big complaint with Hannah started because Hannah couldn't remember what moussaka was when she was describing it to the guests? Yeah, no.

I'm with you Jextella. Do I like Mark and Sarah and Bonnie? Not all the time. But I get how they could still be so conflicted especially as the filming began on this like two years ago. It ends with Keith being arrested and that happened in 2018. Even if they reenacted those scenes of them finding out at the YWCA lodge, I think much of this was filmed before they knew whether Keith would face any consequences. Many of the early recorded scenes are actually things that Mark, Sarah and Bonnie were filming/recording while they were still partially in the group and beginning to be paranoid. So at the time much of this was being filmed they felt they were still in danger and certainly thought their friends still were (those still with Keith). Additionally, they spent years thinking they were part of a good organization. So of course they're going to be super conflicted about the time they spent and want to grasp at anything that seems to be something good in that time. They know intellectually now - at least they're attempting to - that the whole thing was rotten. But emotionally they're still in the thick of it in terms of dealing with the constant mindfuckery that Keith did to them. I think this series could have been edited and shortened, but I get now that it really was about the emotional arc that the 5 (including Catherine and Nippy) went through as they got out and began to recover. I thought these concluding episodes were pretty good, as were the first few - some of those middle ones could have been cut out or combined. I watched the first episode of Seduced and appreciated that it got right into things, but emotionally it felt more clinical than The Vow has been. And that's okay. With The Vow we got a deep dive into how someone can be brought into an organization (not a cult, no one joins a cult, hat tip Mark), slowly and gradually get sucked into an evil morass and then after getting out have to deal with all the choices you made that got you in. Seduced is a good followup because now that India is out we're going to get a true view into the depths of the group.

After watching the interview with India I think this is exactly right. They made sure to show India's brand in the GMA interview. I think to people making the films/doing the interviews the brand is an easy, shortcut-type shot. It's graphic and as TrueBlueSmoky says, sensational. Oh I agree that the FBI specializes in turning people to provide evidence. We viewers know that the FBI did get and convict Keith, but at the time that Sarah sent Allison the text asking her to get out, she, Sarah, did not yet know if the FBI would even really pursue Keith or charge him with anything. To her and her little Scooby gang of helpers, it still seemed pretty iffy if there was even anything the FBI could pursue from a legal standpoint in regards to Keith. So if she could convince Allison to join them, she thought their case would be stronger. That and I think she did still care about Allison and didn't think she should take all the blame for what Keith had wrought.

And Keith even brought how women dress as a “fault” in women in one of those lectures they were showing. He used a women in the audience wearing a revealing top as proof of women’s badness, can’t remember what his exact point was but how we dress is a threat to men as well. She sent the text to Allison before she went to be interviewed by the FBI as a last chance for Allison to get out from under Keith. They filmed her reading the text out loud for purposes of the documentary, but it was sent a bit earlier. I don’t fault her for that. She thought that if Allison turned herself in, so to speak, it would keep Keith from trying to claim he had nothing to do with DOS and laying it all on Allison. At that point they didn’t know if Keith would or could be charged with anything since he did such a good job of having others take ownership of it all other than his “technology”. He didn’t own any of the companies, he wasn’t employed by ESP, (this according to the Bronfman sister in her deposition), and it was never him who urged the women in DOS. So when they’re first talking to the FBI they still aren’t sure they can actually get Keith. And there was a very real chance that Allison would be as high as they’d go. But if Sarah could get her to turn then a much better chance Keith would go down.

Yeah this one bugged me too. I always think of a lawsuit a woman filed, and this is in the last 5 years or so, after she was fired because of how she looked (too attractive). She was good at her job but was fired because her male boss thought he'd be helpless against her sexiness and do something inappropriate. Never mind that she has free will and could turn him down if he proposed anything, but here was a guy saying it was all right to fire her because he'd not be able to control his emotional response. And somehow women are the ones not in control of our emotions in the workplace? If it were only this one instance, I'd be like okay that's not a trend, but over and over women get blamed for a man's reaction to them and then are called the "too emotional" gender! And here was Keith gaslighting the women into agreeing with the idea. Gah! Makes me mad all over again.

Yeah I finished this episode with my stomach tied in knots as I too could think of guys who are like this and because I know there are just so many more out there than any of us would think. Hearing him repeat those things over and over about women and how deficient we are and how we owe things to men and how men are just so victimized by all our "faults" - which turns out to be every single thing we do in the exercise they undertook? Just sick-making. And truly does demonstrate how insidiously this whole thing worked and how evilly insidious Keith really is. In those earlier episodes it could almost seem like Keith had this idea for a MLM and money making entity and oh somehow it morphed into this cult thing. But tonight makes very clear that the direction of the group is based in his deep-seated hatred of women and how he weaponized that.

I've felt for a while now that the show has been tip-toeing around what the Bronfman's were actually doing in the organization and it's only through Toni (and a bit from Barbara and Susan last week) that we're starting to get into their particular contribution to the badness of it all. But still it's only the tip of the iceberg and mostly has to do with their funding the lawsuits. In that impact statement that a victim read at Clare's sentencing it's clear that she at least was intimately involved in the inner workings of it all, and yet we get little of that here. I had a thought after tonight's episode that perhaps the reason the producers of this haven't done a deeper dive into the Bronfman sisters and have only touched on their behavior is that perhaps they didn't want to get sucked into the maw of the endless lawsuits the Bronfmans would fund to go after them. When you hear Toni, Barbara and Susan talk about the years and years of fight they've had to endure and are still enduring? Makes me think the doc producers may have been wary maybe.

100% agree with you here. She's like the worst traits of every manager all rolled into one. But when she and Tom were having the trading of words outside the pantry door he should have just said, yes the fish is frozen and I need the situation fixed. Instead he wanted to argue about who actually said what in his snotty, superior tone - admittedly she did the same - and never actually said "fix it". Do I think she was inserting herself partially because it gets her more screen time? Sure. But in that moment he had his boss's ear and could have put it on Sandy to solve.

You're right that in the general course of events the chef and chief stew would be the ones dealing with an issue with provisions. But in this case it had already gone well beyond that. Bugsy did re-request the provisions and met with the people on the dock to get his halibut or whatever because the initial delivery of seafood was too warm. But Tom continued to throw a tantrum because it was now too cold (let's call him Goldilocks) and Malia inserted herself into the whole mess. This was the point where Sandy was trying to say, hey Tom if you still have an issue, let me know and I'll pursue a solution. She wanted Malia to step back and didn't want Bugsy becoming an additional handmaiden to Tom. She just needed him to use his words and tell her what he wanted. Which he didn't do. Instead he wasted a whole bunch of words arguing with her on the technicality of who said the fish was frozen instead of opening the pantry door, showing her the frozen fish and asking her to follow up. Malia did try to explain this to him when he continued to whine after the crew meeting. Tell Sandy then it's on her to fix it. edited to add: I say all this as someone who is no fan of Sandy's.

Agreed. He was being so incredibly snotty, condescending, and just plain insubordinate there. Yes it was Bugsy who said it was frozen but Sandy's point was still valid, even if she was just generally making it worse. She just wanted Tom to tell her what the problem was exactly so that she could address it. Then and later he put on this whole wounded confusion about what Sandy wanted, but he knew. She wanted her chef to come to her with issues, not go through his girlfriend the bosun. That's why she came down on Bugsy about getting dragged into it. With Sandy it was probably equally parts wanting more air time and actual management strategy - but she wasn't wrong there (even if she had the details mixed up). I supervise people and nothing is worse then hearing through the grapevine about some problem brewing, that I could have easily fixed if the staff person who was having the issue had come to me directly.

Tom the baby, Malia the enabler, Sandy the chaos queen. It's all been mentioned. But I think my favorite moment of the show was Aesha answering the question in her talking head if she had groped Rob during the photo. She gave a kind of horrified no and then said that she wasn't attracted to him and how aggressive his face is right up close. Not that he's aggressive, but that all those angles coming at you! Made me laugh and she hit it on the head for me. I haven't found him attractive either even though he was a model. He has that thing that many female models have, where they look kind of sharp, angular and strange in person, but in photos? They look phenomenally different. Someone linked on another episode to the Taylor Swift photo shoot that Rob did and he did look handsome (which for me could be 90% due to the tuxedo he was wearing). But on the show he's just too aggressively angular (thank you Aesha).

As much as I’m frustrated with how little they’re actually telling us about Keith and his past, I’m getting almost more frustrated with how little they’re telling us about the women around him. Nancy seemed to be just as instrumental in it all, what’s her deal? And the Bronfmans? And Alison. Etc. It was interesting last night to hear what had happened to Barbara and Susan when they left and threatened to reveal things. Keith and company used the Bronfman money to go scorched earth in them using the courts and bankrupting them. Up until last night Sarah, Mark and Bonnie would talk about how afraid they were. But I couldn’t figure out what they were scared of as it didnt seem like much would happen. But hearing how nxivm destroyed Barbara and Susan made their worry more understandable, especially as Sarah and Mark, at least, were there For some of the time after Barbara and a Susan left.

Pretty sure he had a tweet or retweet at the time that suggested he did not agree, but I could be misremembering. I could almost, maybe, kind of accept that Malia did what she thought was best. Almost. But she’s so smug and when asked to say something nice about Hannah she can’t think of anything.

Yeah I kept wishing something like that had happened (with everyone all right of course) while Malia was babysitting Tom.

Jess is certainly over the top with her jealousy, but I’m equally turned off by Rob’s oh so emo ways.

Malia just said on WWHL that Tom cheated on her with someone on another boat and she’s now single. All of which happened since the reunion when they were all over each other according to Andy. Oh and loved how Malia seems to pick and choose when to follow orders. Sandy gave her a direct order to stay out of the galley and she completely ignored that.

Monique and Candiace handed Ashley a gift. Barely anyone talking about Michael now.