Pop Tart

I was wondering this too. Especially since she would have totally been on the attack with Hannah if the same had happened while she was there. It'd be: "where were you Hannah, you weren't answering the radio, have to have the radio at all times," and when Hannah perhaps said she was on a break "you need to manage your stews better, you are a bad manager, you have a lousy attitude" etc. etc. etc. Yes, but as Aesha said it was one of those non-apology apologies because he said "I'm sorry, but..." But it wasn't my fault, but it was Sandy I was mad at, but anyone could have cut the cucumber (!), but, but, but. To quote Dr. Phil (can't believe I know this), if you make a statement and then follow it with a "but" then everything that came before the "but" was untrue and not how you really feel. Everything after the "but" is still where you're at. I get that this is relatively new to Tom, but he throws fits about the stupidest things, things that all the other chefs might have been irked by even banged some pots around or something, but then rolled with it. Tom just seems like a spoiled baby of a chef who has only worked in very privileged situations so he has no ability to just chill and roll with it. And Malia constantly stroking him to make sure he is okay and telling him that they're all there to support him? When she has insisted that everyone else should just do their jobs? Oh and when she asked if he was pissed at her and he said he'd never be pissed at her? I don't believe it.

And his snobbish commentary about how anyone who had taste would want fresh mussels and those who would eat frozen were without taste (clearly). Clearly Tom and Malia are a match made in heaven. The minute something doesn't go their way, they turn into assholes.

He's been accused in the past of having sex with underage girls (one only 12 at the time) so yes he was on the prowl for young women. And this fact makes me think his only having sex with them after they'd lost all the weight (at least that was the case with "Jane") has more to do with his need for them to look like pre-pubescent girls in order to be attracted to them. They're even starving themselves to the point that they stop having their periods.... https://www.syracuse.com/state/2018/04/nxivm_keith_raniere_ny_cult_rape.html I want to give Sarah some grace and think that she just got caught up in being good at this thing. She was an expert recruiter in what she thought was an executive success program. Do I think she should have maybe got an inkling about the pyramid scheme of it all at the least? Yes. But she lived in and with it for years. She was brought into the group by a friend she trusted, Mark. She thought, at least in the beginning, that the organization was meant to do good. So I haven't written her off yet. When she got out, she got out. And from what we've been shown she tried to tell as many people as possible that things were very wrong. Mark? I think he was just content. He was getting all the ego strokes he needed without any of the pressure, so it seems, that the women faced. He in fact didn't even seem to do any of the recruitment work, though he opened the Vancouver Center with Sarah. It seems his only job was to film Keith, so of course he didn't see any issues with the group. Totally a 'go along to get along' kind of guy.

I may be mis-remembering but I think Leah brought Tinsley to Martin at the beginning of the season. Might even have been first episode with the oh so natural “here’s my good friend Leah” intro of her to the audience by Tinsley as they meet up to work out.

I think it's also in the structures of how these things work. They give you a couple really feel good, confidence-boosting wins in the beginning and see how you respond to that. If you don't come back, fine, you weren't someone who would probably be susceptible to the structure. But if that first win brings you back for more, they give you a couple more wins. And then they give you some challenges, but easier ones so you're successful and feel even better about yourself. And they surround you with people who are all expressing how happy this whole thing has made them and how well it's working for them. For people who are searching for that nebulous something that will make everything all right and make them happy? It's pretty seductive. And for all those newbies, Keith isn't even part of the equation. It's only later that you're graced with his presence - after you've been told over and over how wonderful he is - so that you're just so grateful to finally meet him. Mark talked about how many times Keith denied him before finally meeting to talk about his film work, so that it was clear by the time Keith contacted him he'd have done just about anything. Mark had been trying to get to talk to Keith because he had a plan for what kind of filmmaking work he wanted to do, but after meeting with Keith he dropped his own plan and started working on Keith's documentary/hero story film about Keith. This is why I'm enjoying this so far and don't mind the slow build. They're showing how easy it is for anyone to get sucked in. How intelligent, sensible people spend 12 years! (Mark) of their life enmeshed in it without even realizing they are. And what's also clear, as with just about any and all of these cults run by men, is that women always bear the more abusive burden, which is why the men in the group take so much longer to get that it's a cult and abusive.

I remember a time when Hannah tried to give you a heads up Jess that Rob’s “ex” might not be so ex after all. His response was far too emotional to be just a random text from an “ex”.

I actually think that Ashley had it pegged. Wendy had been glad to leave the baby behind and enjoy a bit of child-free freedom (which is totally valid) but when Ashley came with the baby because she couldn't leave him behind Wendy felt attacked and got defensive. Wendy seems to be pretty insecure and needs to be validated constantly. She wasn't attacked, not verbally or physically, of course, but to her mind it made her decision to leave the baby home look wrong. That the other moms would be judging her for that choice. None of that was actually happening but her very thin skin about her own choices made her have to attack Ashley for bringing the baby. And also make sure everyone knew just what she went through to leave the baby behind. I don't like her but Karen plays the reality game so well. When it got to be her turn to answer a deep question at the dinner she turned it around to ask Wendy about her behavior and comments. The other ladies revealed things (some of them gross) and at least pretended to answer a deep question and Karen skated by. I missed the beginning of the episode, was there a reason Monique brought the bird with her? I'm guessing because her husband wouldn't care for it? But it seemed like a pretty stressful thing to do to the bird to take it on a car trip and then have it be in a houseful of screaming women? Oh and to my eye it looked like T'Challa was trying to fly to Wendy to land on her arm like he does Monique - not attack her (though she is certainly attack-worthy).

When Ramona was talking to Sonja while they were packing she was ragging on Luann for not supporting her in her quest to get Dorinda to admit she has a problem. And Sonja was agreeing that Luann was trying to straddle the fence or words to that effect. I'll be curious to see what they are saying at the reunion as Luann didn't straddle the fence. She just spoke to Dorinda one on one rather then sending her a text in a group chat about anger issues. Luann sat down with her and calmly tried to talk her through what the concerns were. Of course Dorinda wasn't having it and reacted in her usual way, but Luann didn't just let it all slide because she was trying to play both sides. I loved how at Sonja's big celebratory moment Ramona had to draw some of that attention - Dorinda too. Just like when Ramona was having her charity event speech and Sonja and Dorinda kept trying to take over the moment. And pretty sure there has been a time when Dorinda was trying to speak to a crowd and Ramona and Sonja were chiming in. And of course there was Dorinda shouting Jovani at Luann's cabaret show. Those three are incapable of letting someone else have the spotlight on their own for more than 30 seconds at a time. They each have to jump in so they can share that spotlight. Doesn't matter what's going on or what the spotlight is for. They must be in it. Leah seems so-inclined as well. I have probably forgotten some instances, but I don't think Luann has exhibited this same behavior when someone else has the spotlight. Shouting out when someone else is speaking - and I don't mean cheering someone on in a "look-at-me" kind of way (they all do that) - but the interrupting someone's speech or performance to draw the attention? Probably has happened and I just like Lu better so I've forgotten. 😉 Ramona's blasé attitude towards poop on the floor was bad enough when it was her dog, but her own? The height of classless, selfish privilege. Of course she doesn't have to care. She isn't the one who is going to have to clean it up. She's not the one who'll have to follow a smeared trail of shit through the house when someone else steps in it and tracks it everywhere. I'm with you Iris987, hate her.

Agreed. I don't think that Teddy thinks everyone has to like her, I think she is someone who has pretty clear-cut ways of operating and doesn't put a lot of filters on letting you know where she stands. So for her to be all fake-y nice to someone she knows has called her pathetic and doesn't like her? Doesn't compute. I know this gets thrown around a lot, but I wonder if Teddy is on the spectrum in some way. Social subtle-ties just throw her. And I like her for it. (I'll sit over here in my corner). The other thing that probably grates for all of them is that Denise just isn't doing her job. I think the only events she's stayed more than a few minutes at this season were the one at her home and the dinner in Italy - even that she tried to walk out on but was urged back by the production crew. I think if the production crew is telling you to go back to work, then it's pretty clear there's some frustration. At the majority of events this season she has shown up, started to beef with someone and then stormed out (to go to a strip club for dinner apparently). If I was working with her and knew that she was getting paid beucoup bucks but was only spending fifteen minutes filming while I sat there for a couple hours? Would certainly irk me. And "calling in sick" when they all know she's done this time after time this season and just wants to get out of it? Nope. Edited to add: Garcelle - I don't love her or hate her at this point. What I find puzzling is that she's a bomb-thrower (asking Sutton about her money and mentioning Lisa's me-me-me stuff) but then immediately backtracks, sometimes to their face like with Lisa but more often in her talking heads. She seems like she's really picking up on the nuances and speaks her truth but contradicts herself in her own talking heads. So I'm not a fan at this point, just more intrigued about how her trajectory as a reality cast person will go.

I think what will be interesting going forward will be Malia’s (and Sandy’s) realization of how she overplayed her hand. She’s forgotten the number one rule of reality television; there has to be conflict to create the kind of drama the producers want. And conflict requires an antagonist. Malia just got rid of their joint antagonist leaving them no one to have conflict with but each other. This will be the reason I’ll probably stick it out. It’s not going to be all roses for Malia going forward as Sandy starts to look around for someone new to go after so that she can continue to get her airtime. I’m certainly enjoying the heat they’re taking in real time, but hope it will be just as enjoyable watching them turn on each other.

Even if everything Sandy said was correct about the rules that were violated, no where does it say that she must fire the person. Her big concern is Hannah overdosing? All she has to do is keep the pills and only dispense as or when needed. Done. Maritime law satisfied. And I started the night thinking I should give Malia a smidge of chance to show she’s just following the regs, but nope. Her smug confab with Sandy, her complete lack of taking any responsibility for her actions with Hannah or any of the crew, her complete violation of Hannah’s privacy when she tells the other deckhands Hannah had “drugs”? Nope. Nope. Nope. Oh and in case you were wondering it’s not that Tom screwed up the dinner, it’s that he has too much self-respect for this job.

I now think this was deliberate. Most recent season of BD was so horrendous because of the men and their misogyny that I think the producers decided they couldn't have another season with men running things and being horrible. So hey, how about we have the women prove to be just as terrible. So next season they can bring back the guys and we'll all be fine with their jerkishness.

I get it if Denise had to think about how to respond. But she presents her prepared remarks, reigniting the topic, and then is upset when the others respond. It’s then that she just has to leave because they won’t let it go? If she hadn’t restarted things I doubt any of them would have brought it up. And in fact she was the one who brought Brandi up at their second night’s dinner when she told them all the things Brandi had supposedly said about them. She starts things up, totally her right, but then says she’s under attack when they respond .

But that’s what I don’t get. They weren’t the ones who brought it up again at that last dinner. Denise did with her big speech. Garcelle was even dismayed when Denise started in. That was what began things all over again. Fine if Denise wants to talk about it more, but then she turns around and plays the victim because the others won’t let it go. Lost me there.

Me too.

Lisa is no great friend for sure but I agree with her that Denise was making up the “Brandi said” stuff as she went. Didn’t believe a word she claimed that Brandi had said about them. The only honest thing she said was what she admitted she’d said about Erika and Teddi. Teddi is right. Denise claims to be done so she can step away but then comes back with a rehearsed speech. The other thing I can’t with Denise is how she just can’t believe how they are all about drama. That is what this show is. And then she dramatically leaves.

I'm thinking about how Malia insisted, more than once, that "they were hired as a couple". I think that may in fact be true. They were hired as a couple before any of this began and then the rest of the drama was scripted to play out. Not to say the producers knew exactly how it was going to go, scripts on reality tv are generally just a sketching out of possible plot directions. But I think that Kiko was hired because of his inexperience and that his firing was in the plan all along (Sandy finding ways to pick at him even when he was doing well) and that Tom's "hiring" was also part of the deal. Thus Malia insisting they were hired as a couple. Separate note, Malia tried to defend her actions as being for the safety of the boat and how the cabin thing was already settled at that point so she wasn't being retaliatory. But I wonder if she did the big reveal to help Bugsy. Bugsy didn't want to room with Hannah anymore than Hannah did Bugsy, and yet somehow that part of the story was skated over. It may be that Malia knew she had this ammo against Hannah and she reassured Bugsy that rooming together wouldn't last long. Okay - I'll take off my conspiracy hat now.

I actually would have liked to see Alice on the stand even more than Ennis just because I think Alice would have made mincemeat of Barnes when he tried to cross-examine her. Though I didn't think the church part of the plot was a total nothing, I was kind of surprised at the way Alice as a character just kind of faded away. I get that Perry probably wouldn't call her to testify given the whole resurrection event, but still I wanted it. There were plot holes but I loved this ending. I thought a hung jury was the exact right response because while yes, Barnes' case was nothing but smoke and mirrors, to this jury of mostly men and righteous women of the 30s? Emily cheating on her husband with the man who was part of the kidnap plot? That is all they needed to convict. The ground shifted a little with Perry revealing the money-woes at the church, Emily's testimony, and Perry's closing argument, something I think Barnes was trying to ignore (thus his not changing his closing argument and hammering on Emily's adultery). But in reality, with the way the crime was played in the press, the ways in which everyone already had Emily convicted before the trial even began, her own waffling on her role and guilt, there is no way a jury of that time period would acquit absent a confession on the stand (which never happens, thank you very much Ham Burger!). I didn't have as much of a problem with Perry bribing a juror as others did because this was his first case and one that would mean death by hanging for his client if he lost? Totally got his desperation to save her at any cost. And when an entire system of justice on the other side, cops and DA is corrupt? It made sense. I think this will be his first and only time doing this since he found out that his legal efforts had already changed the minds of two other jurors who weren't bribed. In the PM books he often skirts the law and outright breaks it when it's in service to saving an innocent client. Agreed it was never as serious as bribing a juror, but it was a thing in a lot of the books. It's been years since I read them (and I read them all), but I don't remember him being so big on the glory of the law as an institution. He was more concerned with JUSTICE for his client. It was very much about what's right vs what's legal in all of his efforts. That said he was an extremely good lawyer, so most of his efforts twisted and manipulated the law, but stayed just thisclose to legal. I liked the ending snippets that showed how everyone was moving on from the trial and how Mason and Associates was being formed. And now I can't wait (and it's going to be a long wait) for season two to see Perry and Della and Paul in action.

I think Arabella was responding from her own pain and rage about what happened to her so she took it too far in suggesting that Kwame had violated consent - which she did apologize for at the end of the episode. That said, I do also think that what Kwame did was unethical. He had told Bella and Terry ahead of time that he was going to go out with and likely have sex with a woman to regain his own sense of control in sexual situations (a thing he's felt like he's lost with men). So his going into the situation with the woman he picked with that agenda is something that lessens her ability to consent. It's similar to what happened to Terry and how she felt after her threesome in Italy. She went into it thinking it was a spontaneous thing about which she had all the information, but when she saw that the two men knew each other after the fact she realized she didn't have all the information and felt used (or at least that's how I interpreted her reaction). I think what this show does so well is not just examine the question of consent in clearcut situations - Arabella is drugged and someone has sex with her, easy to make that call - but also examines all the ways in which people lie and maneuver in sexual politics to get what they want. Writer guy removing the condom halfway through? Kwame being humped with clothes on? Terry being in a threesome and finding out that the two men may have planned it? Kwame having sex with a woman without telling her he's gay and has other reasons for wanting to have sex? In each of those instances the person perpetrating the fraud (in all the mild and not so mild ways) is pretty convinced that they didn't do anything wrong - that it's all part of the game. And most of the time I think that's how people will roll with it. Chalk it up to a learning experience. But all is deceptive in some way and all makes the person on the receiving end feel shitty (at the least). And all so wonderfully and honestly explored with this show.

Did I miss the tip meeting or did they not show it? Felt like Sandy announced on the radio to get ready for the tip meeting but then rest of scenes were Kiko leaving. I don’t necessarily think Sandy was wrong to want to change chefs, but to fire Kiko mid-charter was not only unnecessarily unkind, but dumb too. It could well have been that Kiko went into his cabin and didn’t come out again. And then who would have cooked? Their tip would have been way worse. I think the decision to let Kiko go must have been made a while ago and they then arranged for Malia’s boyfriend to “visit” at a coincidentally perfect time. I really appreciate Malia for her competence but since Bugsy came on board she’s become smug and full of herself.

Think of the women who go to the store and try on these items after Sonja has worn the, done lord knows what in them, and then returned them to the store.

This is a good read - and what I've been feeling too. You've articulated my thoughts better then I've been doing. I'm thinking that they may have all have heard the rumor before the season started and I'm now starting to think that the reason they were so shocked by, and ready to make hay of, Denise's reaction to a discussion about a threesome was perhaps because they'd already heard that she'd perhaps just participated in one. Which if she did, no harm no foul, that's her business. But to them, if they had been hearing these Brandi rumors, her pearl-clutching about a discussion of the idea probably did seem hypocritical and a bit fake. I think where things went especially sideways was as you said, Denise just didn't handle it well. One thing that has always been interesting to me in these shows is the women like Dorit, who figure out how to scheme and navigate and manipulate the process to their best advantage. I don't like Dorit, but I think she plays the game well. I hated LVP, but she was a master-player in the reality game. Denise is not. Or at least she wasn't for most of this season. I think she thought she could bluff her way through. It didn't work. I do think she's since figured out her way forward - witness the spin she's using in her talking heads filmed much more recently. And more power to her. But she did fumble.

They have not attacked her every interaction. They started the season with a bunch of events, one of which was at Denise's house and started #threesometalkgate. This is how all seasons start. The producers work with the cast to set up events/meetings/get-togethers with various iterations/mixes of the cast to see what the season thru-lines will be. They will have already talked to the cast ahead of time to see what's all going on with them in their lives and often that will shape those first few events so that the audience can be brought in and gain some context (kind of like the "previously on" you have for scripted television series that return for a new season). As the cast interacts with one-another - many of whom won't have seen the others for months - the cast and the producers pick up on the hot button issues and the things that have set up some tension. Denise got the ball rolling, storyline-wise, by telling them she didn't want the threesome-type talk in front of her kids. Totally cool. Whether it was genuinely upsetting to her kids? Probably not. But she was doing her part for the story. The others took it up and amped up the drama by being "offended" to have been corrected. Then there were all the required scenes of one-on-one conversations with various parties where they're going to clear the air once and for all. Which is never once and for all. That's all part of the deal too. Did they bring it up with Denise and one another frequently? Yes. She too did that. After some of them were moving past it to other drama - Erica wanting to talk with her about Aaron's behavior towards the women - Denise was the one who brought it back to #threesometalkgate. And none of it read as attacks. Not to me anyway. Felt like business as usual. My read in many of those scenes was that Denise was tense and angry about something else before she even showed up. Having to show up for the events? Maybe? Maybe Aaron wasn't wanting to go so they were arguing? Maybe there's something else going on for them that's causing tension and they just don't want to have to go do a work event right now? Ding! Ding! Ding! At least that's how it has felt to me. From the very first scenes this season Denise and Aaron have felt to me like they just don't want to be there. They've been quick to be irritated and quick to leave. That's my take on it. And having the excuse of being "under attack" so they have to run away all the time? That actually was working in Denise's favor I think. Until it wasn't.

Agreed with all of this. Denise's reaction sealed it for me that the bones of Brandi's story were true, though I'm sure she stretched/embellished/changed her memories of what happened. Her running away I think is really the biggest crime as far as the other cast members are concerned. When they're filming they're at work and so when someone routinely skips events or runs out on them soon after arriving it is like that person is skipping or leaving work early. Think about any job you've had and how it starts to really bug you when a co-worker calls out of work frequently or if they're always leaving early. At first, you believe their reasons and often are sympathetic to what might be going on for them, but when it happens over and over and you're still showing up for work and staying for the whole shift? It festers. And you can count me as one of the few who still likes Teddi. I think her anxiety about the whole thing was twofold, one she knew this thing was floating around and had already been said on camera and she thought Denise should know and two she was probably pressured to bring it up at the dinner with everyone there (rather then in a one-on-one with Denise) by production (with or without Kyle and Rinna adding their urging). Though this is a "reality" show, that doesn't mean the producers don't plan out storylines, and re-film scenes, and recreate scenes, and talk the cast through what each filming day will be. There are writers and storyline people who work on these shows, which to me means that of course much of it is scripted. That's not to say that these aren't real events in their lives, it just means that filming and production factors in and often scenes are re-filmed and producers work with the cast to get the best dialogue, staging, etc to better the story and the drama. I was okay with Denise last season, didn't love her, didn't hate her, my reaction to many newbies as their first seasons are almost always fairly benign, storyline-wise (not always, see: Leah, RHONY). But this season I haven't liked her at all. Even before the whole shocking talk in front of her kids kerfuffle, she seemed to be carrying a low-grade tension and anger into each scene. Rinna has always talked about herself as a hustler who'll work hard and continuously to keep her name out there and keep the work/money going. That's part of why I'm okay with her. She knows what the job is and doesn't act all doe-eyed about what she has to do to keep her job. I can't exactly shame her for doing what she does to stay on the show, if I keep watching. This is where Denise loses me. I think she's a hustler as well and that's fine. What bugs me is that she wants to pretend she's not and that she's an innocent naif who has wandered onto the show not knowing the deal. Her shouting Bravo, Bravo, Bravo tells me she does know. And the fact that she's been working in Hollywood for 20 (30?) years? She, better than many of the women who come on these shows, knows the score about the dirty business she works in. Do I think she's genuinely distressed about what is being said on the show? Sure. And I sympathize with that. But she can't have her cake and eat it too. If she wants to still be famous and relevant and get the Bravo bucks (which clearly she does), then she has to be part of the show. I would actually honor her if she walked off - which seems she's going to do in the next couple weeks - and said I'm done. But what she did was storm off, miss more work, and then come back. She didn't take a big principled stand that she was done with the tawdriness, she ran away because she couldn't control the narrative and then she came back when she figured out what she was going to say to regain control of that narrative. Okay. That's her right, but that's where she loses me with her storming off.