Bergamot

Okay. But anyway, it was the writer himself who said it was an error. Personally I am way past the point of making excuses for this writing staff. I don't like that he knew it didn't fit but apparently didn't care.

I think this was supposed to be earlier than that -- soon after she returned. Also, why would she say, "The boys are waiting for us"? And why would she and Cas be hunting vampires then anyway, instead of searching for Dean and Sam?

Okay then. I was wondering about that myself. I couldn't figure out when that could have happened. Well, that would certainly be convenient for the show's writers. If something doesn't make any sense in regard to what we have previously seen on the show, they can say, "Oh, it's just that thing with the fabric of the universe coming apart!" Sorry, Casseiopeia, I didn't mean to sound so sarcastic (and if true it could possibly be a very interesting story), but I tend to think it is just the writer being cute about how lazy he was in regard to canon.

I actually didn't mind this part of the episode -- it worked for me. (Except I have to admit that ironically, while Dean and Sam were afraid that Mary was dead, I was afraid that they would find Mary was still alive!) It was the flashbacks that were the problem. It's like Aeryn13 said: I mean, they all but admitted lately that the character came across as cold and self-centered, that she had failed to connect with her sons or to be there for them, but the writers didn't even have the guts to stand by what they had done with Mary. Instead they tried to weasel their way out of it by pretending now that it wasn't really like that. The Cas flashback was bad enough, although I don't really remember Cas feeling any closeness to Mary, or even being interested in her beyond the fact that she was important to Dean and Sam. When exactly did Cas and Mary go hunting together, anyway, and share their heartwarming moment? That scene supposedly happened soon after she returned, but I can't recall when it could have occurred. The next flashback is easy to place in time, of course, since it happened while Dean was first possessed. At least now we know how much anxiety Mary really felt for Dean during that time. She certainly wasn't working herself to exhaustion to try to find him, or losing any sleep over his absence, was she? Look at how much fun she was having with Jack! Look at her sunny smile! Look at how happy she was to be with her two beloved sons, Sam and Jack! It's all okay, because she has found a way to excuse any guilt feelings -- as she explains to Sam, she is just "complicated". Sure Mary. Aren't we all. I think that if they were going to give us flashbacks of Mary, they should have showed us the characters remembering scenes that actually occurred on the show. Cas could have flashed back to when she lied to and used them all, in order to steal the Colt from Ramiel for the BMoL. And she wouldn't give it up or say a word even when her sons were seconds away from being killed for it, while Cas himself almost died. Talk about a heartwarming moment! Dean and Sam could flash back to that time when they risked everything to find her in the AU, to the point that they died (Sam) or lost their brother (Dean). They could remember how she told them she wasn't going back with them, because the AU hunters were just too important to her, and she could not leave them when they needed her (meanwhile disregarding Dean's desperate plea that he and Sam needed her.) I could think of some more, but these are a couple moments that I personally flashed back to during the search for Mary. And yes, it was very telling that the show had to make up some stuff now in order for the characters to remember her fondly, because they didn't bother to do it all along.

I wouldn't mind seeing this as well. I just don't believe that the show will fully commit to it. Not with all the "poor Jack, it's not his fault" hedges they have erected around the story. It would seem so bizarre to me though if this storyline for Jack ends with Dean and Sam welcoming him back with open arms and telling him, "It doesn't matter that you killed our mother! You didn't mean to! All that matters is that we're FAMILY!"

Yes. I was rolling my eyes at all those tender flashbacks of moments with Mary, showing how wonderful she was. Moments that we never saw until they decided to kill off the character. Sorry, show, it's too late to try with the character. Also disliked the gooey sentimentality of the writing in this episode in general, and the way every emotional moment stretched out unbearably. For me sentimentality is trying to buy feelings without being willing to pay a fair price for them, and that's what I felt they were doing. My emotions are not so cheaply bought, and I am not sad that Mary is gone. I sincerely hope that they never bring her back. LOL, tennisgurl! That's a good description! I am so, so sick of Mark Pellegrino, but we just can't get rid of him.

I actually find it easier now to watch the show, knowing that its end point has been determined. I can tell myself, "This too shall pass." Also it is comforting to me to know that Jensen and Jared agree with me that the show was once a beautiful thing, but that it has come to the point where it needs to be put out of its misery. Case in point being these last few episodes. The Jack we saw at the end of the episode with Mary? That's the Jack we should have gotten from the beginning. Kind of like the terrifying, all-powerful little boy in that episode of the Twilight Zone. And then the story could have been about how the Winchesters deal with the situation. Rather than making Jack into the protagonist, with everything that happens being about his journey, and Dean and Sam as just supporting characters for that story. I did like Dean fighting the demons! I also liked the part where Nick talks to Dean about how the two of them are no longer completely human, after having been the vessels for Lucifer and Michael. Mainly because I thought that the show was never going to even mention MichaelDean again, but was going to pretend that it never happened. (But it did happen, and I remember it, and he was awesome!) Of course it would have been nice if in that scene we could have found out something about how Dean feels about what happened with Michael. Maybe even give him a line or two to say something about it! Does he feel that it changed him in some way, as Nick implied? Did he ever feel the attraction that Nick felt for Lucifer? How is he handling his guilt over what Michael did to the AU hunters? Forget all that, though -- the show isn't interested in that, only in what Jack is going through. Oh, and I also liked seeing Anael again. She actually had some layers to her; in a way I found her to be the most interesting character of the episode.

Yes, I agree! Well said. I loved The X-Files too! Even though for me, due to the direction it went, the show ended a couple seasons earlier than what is listed on IMDB. Buffy was another show that, for me, ended before it went off the air for similar reasons. But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy rewatching those shows (I just recently started a rewatch of X-Files from the beginning, in fact) and as you say, it doesn't stop me from loving them as a whole. At this point, I can't imagine the show being able to ruin my love and enjoyment of Dean. No matter how bad the writing gets, I love him too much to let them take him away from me. It's just like the old song goes, "They Can't Take That Away From Me"! 🙂

I agree! Good for them! I think after all these years, with all the work they've put into their characters, they have earned the right to ask for this kind of input. I am glad to hear this. The thought that they might not even be listened to, on the other hand, makes me angry. What possible excuse could Dabb et al. have for refusing to listen? Because their ideas might not be any good? Sorry, but I don't think they could be any worse than some of the ideas that the writers themselves have come up with. Because Dabb wants the final season to focus only on Jack and Nickifer? Oh, yeah, it certainly would be a shame if that didn't happen. And yes, I agree that it is very telling that Jensen would even say this, because I don't believe he would have mentioned it unless he thought it was a possibility, and I cannot think of a single good excuse for it to happen.

Oh, but that's all okay, because she is "grateful for every day that she gets to spend" with Dean and Sam, right? Yes, way too late. Maybe if the show had delved into what was wrong with Mary from the beginning. But the writers were too busy trying to show us what a cool badass woman she was, to allow any real exploration of the character. Well, he has pointed this out before, but he was made to look wrong and unfair by the writers for SUPPOSEDLY expecting Mary to stay home and bake cookies for him. Which was not what he was saying, of course. But now we are supposed to feel sympathy for Mary's realization of her shortcomings? Sorry, but no.

I understand that there are some who will feel that way, but I have absolutely no fear that this will be the case for me with Jensen. There is no one who loves and appreciates Dean more than me, but I also loved every single moment of Jensen as Michael. I was absolutely thrilled with his portrayal of that character. Heck, I even got an enormous kick out of seeing him playacting as King Bacchus in the parade! 😄 So yeah, I am looking forward to seeing any new roles he might try in the future.

Sounds good to me! Yes, I agree. I was thinking the same thing when I saw the statement issued by Dabb and Singer -- this part in particular: My first thought when I saw this was "Well, Andrew, how about first giving these characters that we love the SEASON ENDING they deserve?" Then maybe I could view this pledge to give them the "send off" they deserve with anything other than complete and profound distrust.

OMG! That's brilliant! (I heard it too!)

I have been watching the show -- and talking about it online -- since it first came on the air. After all these years of watching and re-watching the episodes, and thinking and talking about the show, I can't help feeling sad about seeing it end. It's a big deal for me. I think there are two sides to it. The fandom side of it will continue to exist, and I think will carry on for a long time to come. But as for the actual show, I think it is time for it to end, and I'm glad they have made this decision. I was very happy to see how excited Jensen was to play the role of Michael. I think he enjoyed the challenge of doing something different as an actor, and that's something I would like to see as well in the future. But in my opinion that storyline was handled in a very poor and begrudging manner by the show. Those who make the show like to talk about how Supernatural is the type of show where you can do new things, go in any direction you want. But I feel like the opposite is true, like the show has become calcified in its old age. So I do think it's time. Anyway, I think when I look back on the show in MY old age, the things that I will remember will be the parts that I loved. (Especially Dean Winchester. I was a Dean girl from the very beginning, and will always and forever be one!)

I honestly could not tell which of the two stories in the episode was supposed to be the "A" story and which was supposed to be the "B" one, because they were both "B" stories. And both so unoriginal, so contrived, and so very boring. So Jack stupidly tried to impress his new friends, made a mistake, and then lied about it to Dean and Sam because he didn't want to get in trouble. What has any of that got to do with being soulless? Sounds like something perfectly ordinary and fully-souled teenagers do every day. Obviously the writers cooked up the idea that Jack losing his human half by burning off his soul, and thus being just an angel, might make him EVIL (no matter how little sense that makes), just so that they could have it both ways, and make Jack do "bad" things without it being his fault in any way. But then this is the best story they can come up with to depict someone who is missing his soul? So lame. The other "B" plot, the one with Dean and Sam, was also pretty feeble and lacking in originality. Personally I couldn't care less about the little tiff between Dean and Sam over whether to tell Jack the truth about why they didn't want him to go on the hunt with them. It was especially pointless considering that Jack already knows they are worried about how the loss of his soul might affect him. Just some contrived and artificial business that was obviously inserted in an attempt to add dramatic tension to an uninteresting story, and in the end it meant absolutely nothing. At the end of this episode, the situation stands just where it did at the end of last week's episode. And of course, Sam gets to trot out again his angst about the death of the late and unlamented AU hunters. Whereas Dean may as well have parachuted into the season for the very first time in the previous episode, considering how completely and totally forgotten his story is. It is quite an accomplishment, I guess, to make Dean into as much of a cardboard character as the rest of the people on this show. Thank goodness we got rid of that distraction, so that everyone can concentrate on nothing but Jack! Too bad that the writing for Jack is so uninteresting. I thought that the MOTW story was simplistic, dull, and derivative, but that deserted and filthy bathroom was truly terrifying -- scariest thing in the episode! Ha! I loved that set design -- they did a great job on it. (I can't believe though that the girl actually sat down to use one of those toilets!)

Actually, I am not assuming that she can't write for Dean. I would just like to know why she didn't. And to be clear, by that I am not referring to the quantity of screen time or focus that Dean got in the episode, but rather to the quality of her writing for Dean. It would have been perfectly fine with me if in the previous episode -- instead of Michael exiting Dean and then Jack burning off his soul to kill him -- if Michael had taken back control of Dean while he was unconscious, and then Jack burned off his soul to force him into the Ma'lak Box. I would prefer a hundred times more that Dean had been missing from this entire episode because he was in the box, than have him in the episode the way that he was. That would have been totally fine with me. I knew that there would be excuses attempted on the basis that what we saw was Dean was just setting aside his own issues to take care of his family, but that excuse doesn't fly with me. For one thing, with the possible exception of one scene at the end, there was never any indication that Dean even had any issues of his own to be set aside. If you didn't know why Dean might be struggling with what happened with Michael, or to the AU hunters or Jack, you would not learn anything about it in this episode. For another thing, the Dean we saw in this episode was not all that interested in helping his family deal with their issues, from what I could tell. He was interested in eating a huge sandwich and in getting a good night's rest. Cas was the one who said that he would go on the hunt to watch out for Sam, and Cas was the one who suggested that Dean should try to help Jack. Dean was so unenthusiastic about this idea that Cas got angry about it, scornfully adding that afterwards Dean could "sleep til the cows come home". Not exactly a picture of someone who is determined to help his family, if he has to be scorned into doing it. And then after that, Dean spent the rest of the episode basically doing nothing but being stupidly afraid of the snake, a gag that was pointlessly carried on way too long. If the show had wanted us to see Dean repressing his own issues, we would have -- Jensen would have had no problem showing us that. The only exception to all this, where Dean was not bizarro Dean, was the scene at the end where Dean talks to Sam; thanks to Jensen's acting, you can see that he is sympathizing with Sam and ready to listen to him if he needs to talk. And I wanted to think that when Dean said, "Not much happy around here" that he was speaking of himself as well. But I might have been reading something into that line because I wanted to.

I think the idea behind Cas's words was to make clear for the viewer the reason for Sam's behavior in this episode, by echoing the thoughts inside his head: "You have lost your army!" "You failed as a leader!" It was poorly written, though. For one thing, it was unnecessary, because we all knew from the beginning what was bothering Sam; no big revelation was needed. But also, I thought it was poorly written because it makes it sound as if Sam's biggest problem is that he no longer gets to be the Chief. Like he was mourning the loss of his leadership position more than he was mourning the loss of his fellow hunters. I mean, come on, I guess it is sad that Sam has lost his "Chief" credentials, but he wasn't exactly the biggest loser in what happened -- Maggie and the others lost their lives. The fact is though that the writers did such an incredibly poor job this season with the Apocalypse World hunters that it is hard to imagine Sam or anyone else really missing them. Did Sam have a personal relationship with any of these people? We never saw him eating a meal with them, or joking around with them, or sharing a memory or a story, or even having a conversation with any of them about anything but a hunt. We were told by the writers that they saw Sam as their leader, but we never saw why that was, or why they trusted him enough to follow his orders. So to me Sam as the insta-leader of the hunters always seemed like a pointless artificial construct, not something real or believable. Sam did seem to have formed a bond with Maggie, but as far as I could tell, she was the exception, and again their conversations were never anything personal, only about hunting assignments. (After she nearly got killed on that one hunt, Sam felt the angst about having sent her, but Dean was the one who talked about it with her afterwards.) But as others have pointed out, at least we knew her face, her name and something of her history, unlike the majority of that group of anonymous people. However if Sam was the one who "inspired" her to be a hunter, I'm not sure that he was doing her a favor. Right after they escaped from the apocalypse world, the first thing we heard about Maggie was not that she was going on a hunt, but that she was dating that convenience store clerk, and why not? Maggie was very young, and coming to this world gave her a second chance. Maybe Maggie should have been encouraged to try living a normal life in our world, instead of just being enlisted into Sam's army and installed in the bunker for the rest of her short life. So is Sam going to rebuild his army? I sincerely hope not. For one thing, the writers were not capable of handling the crowd of extra characters. The AU hunters were without depth, just two-dimensional figures that were awkwardly and randomly inserted into certain episodes. When the show needed them for some plot point, the writers would give us an instant snapshot of them filling every corner of the bunker, talking and laughing and hanging out. And when they weren't needed for an episode, suddenly they had completely and totally vanished from sight without any explanation. It was so obvious and ridiculous. Another thing is that if there is going to be a new army, Sam is not going to be simply handed, as he was with the AU hunters, a whole plateful of experienced guerrilla fighters who had spent years battling supernatural evil. (At least, that's what they were before they came to our world. Then all of the sudden they were goofy neophytes who needed Sam to monitor their every move.) Are we going to see him go to the trouble of recruiting people one-by-one? I don't know why he would want to do that to anyone. From the beginning, hunters got into "the life" because of some horrible and deadly encounter with the supernatural, which turned their life upside down and led them to dedicate their lives to fighting it. If someone was not already a hunter, why would you want to ask them to be one? Also, personally I think it's a very bad strategy to form hunters into an organized army, rather than a loose association of equals. It's just asking for something to wipe them all out with one strike. (For example: the hunters at Ellen's roadhouse, the American Men of Letters, the British Men of Letters, the AU hunters in Sam's army.) For all of the above reasons, I hope that the writers will admit to themselves that having an army for Sam to lead was a bad idea, and just drop it.

Thanks, that makes sense! I still prefer when Cas could put someone to sleep by simply touching their forehead. That was back when he was a real angel, when just looking at his true form would burn out your eyes. I know those days are gone, but to me it still seems bizarre, and to tell the truth pretty unimpressive, to see an angel struggling and punching and rolling around on the ground trying to subdue a mere human.

That was absolutely inexcusable. And I mean that literally -- I am pre-emptively rejecting any feeble excuse that someone may try to come up with for it. Rowena is traumatized, Sam is suffering because of the loss of his "army", Cas is worried about Jack, and Jack is concerned about the others worrying about him. Okay, we got all that. But Dean was traumatized as well. He tried so hard to keep Michael from hurting anyone else. And remember that nightmarish moment, just last week, when he realized that Michael had escaped? Does the show expect me to believe that he was unaffected by seeing the dead bodies of Maggie and the other hunters? Or that he doesn't feel responsible? Obviously, this episode was not about Dean. But there is no reason that someone -- Sam or Cas or Jack -- could not in their turn have asked Dean how he was doing, or acknowledged that what happened had been hard on him as well. And then he could have brushed it off with "I'm fine". (And knowing Jensen, he could have spoken volumes with nothing but that.) It would have taken a few seconds! Is someone going to tell me that the episode was so crammed full of crucial moments that there was absolutely no way to squeeze something like that into it? Inexcusable. And it leaves such an unpleasant taste in my mouth regarding Sam and Cas. All those histrionics about how they could not possibly lose Dean! Was it all just because they can't do without Dean being there to be Supportive Guy, helping Cas take care of Jack, worrying about how Sam is doing? But once he is filling that role, he is basically unimportant otherwise? Like I said, I didn't need some big emotional scene, just a casual inquiry or remark. But we couldn't even get that much.

I agree with both of you. except for the comment about it being pleasant, which implies that it was enjoyable. Or I guess that was a play on words? 🙂 It reminded me of "Simon Said", which was also about a family with psychic powers. Except the story of Andy and his brother was entwined with that of the Winchesters, since it had to do with Azazel's special kids. The show used to do that -- make even the MOTW episodes significant and important by tying them in to the bigger story about Dean and Sam. Sometimes literally, sometimes just metaphorically. Personally I preferred it that way. Also at least at the end of "Simon Said", they warned Andy that he had better be good, or they would be back for him. In this episode Sam and Cas were apparently okay with unconcernedly leaving Sunny on her own without even a warning, even though it turns out she was as powerful a psychic as her father. I don't know -- yes, I understand it was her father, but he was murdering people, and I think maybe she could have done something about it sooner. She said she was nothing like her father, but how did Sam and Cas know that was the truth? Maybe she will just re-create the town into a version that she likes better.

I am curious too! Whatever Jensen was doing, I hope he was enjoying himself; at least that would make one of us in regard to this episode. Because this one was pretty much a flavorless nothing burger for me. I assume naturally that it was Jensen's choice to not be around. Because if it wasn't, then I would have to wonder why Dabb would be so intent on minimizing Jensen's role this way, and not for the first time this season -- what exactly is Dabb afraid of? But you know, thank goodness we got rid of that "boring" Michael, and managed to remove Dean from any central part in the storyline, in order to make room for this sparking gem! It was a near thing there; for a few episodes I was starting to get invested in what was happening on the show. If they are really that hard up for writers, and will apparently let anyone write an episode, there are some fanfic writers that I think would do a great job! Ones that have actually watched and are familiar with every episode in every season since the beginning!

Ahrtee, I applaud you for asking one of the most pointed and pertinent questions I have seen lately about the show! One that I'm sure will be completely ignored by the writers. Jack died, or I guess I should say "died", because he lost his grace. Cas pulled his soul out of heaven to power the magic that was being used to keep him alive without his grace. I thought that the necessity of not burning up his soul, and the big deal that was made about it, was because he needed it to power the magic. Now he's back to running on angel grace; he doesn't need the soul power to keep him alive anymore. And if his soul is completely gone, doesn't that make him just an angel? Horrors, he might start acting like Cas! This kind of fuzziness is one of the big reasons Jack doesn't work for me as a character.

None of the father/son chit-chats between Cas and Jack have worked for me, or made me feel anything, and this one was no exception. More round-eyed, ponderous sincerity from Cas, more of the same unhappy, confused teenager schtick from Jack. If the point is to emphasize how non-human Cas and Jack are, why did their conversation, as it always does, mirror in the most pedestrian way possible a talk between a human father and his human teenage son? Yeah, I know, for the "feels". Anyway, this one fell especially flat for me, maybe because of the hypocrisy from Cas that others have pointed out (that's right, Cas, losing your loved ones is part of living, remember?) but also because I found what he said pretty patronizing toward humans. Oh, those poor non-cosmic beings! They are so special and lovely, but they don't last very long, so we just have to be happy we can enjoy the fragile little things while they are around. Thanks for the condescending attitude, Cas.

LOL, I have to admit that the same thought crossed my mind. The character, since her return, has been a failure for me -- I wouldn't miss her. And I think it's really awkward how at various crucial points in Dean and Sam's lives, she just disappears from the screen, as if the writers don't know what to do with her. Like in Prophet and Loss, when all we hear about her is when Sam says "Mom hates this idea too", but she is no where to be seen. They have done a really poor job integrating the character into the show. I don't think they will have her killed by Jack though. Even if he has gone dark side, that would be an almost impossible act for him to come back from. Maybe if he died heroically after that, he could be redeemed, but there is no way the show is going to do that. I did wonder if Mary was on her way out, though, after some comments Dabb made regarding Lebanon. He said something about how after John's visit, she is going to be forced to confront some things about how her sons grew up, and how they will be drawn closer together. I can see the show doing that, allowing her to resolve things with Dean and Sam, and then just when everything is looking good in their relationship, they lose her. It's from this interview here, where he is talking about the ramifications of seeing John for Mary: https://za.ign.com/supernatural/129388/feature/why-supernaturals-300th-episode-is-a-starting-point-not-an-e Of course, I normally don't pay that much attention to Dabb's comments; it is equally possible that what he says here might not mean anything at all.

I tend to agree (and not just about Dabb!) I don't think the problem is that the Winchesters are no longer going against just lower-level demons like in the old days. For one thing, from the very first episode, the Winchesters were fighting against Lucifer and his plans for them, not to mention the plans the angels had put in motion. They just didn't know it at first. They didn't know that in fighting Meg, they were fighting Lucifer's daughter. Even when they were saving people and hunting things, they already were part of the bigger supernatural picture. I don't think they can "go back" to just hunting, because "just hunting" was never what their story was really about. But also, in battling against any supernatural creatures, from vampires and werewolves, on up to demons and angels, the Winchesters have from the very beginning been fighting out of their league. They are human, not supernatural -- "mortals" as Cas referred to them in this last episode, in which he made a very clear distinction between human beings like Dean and Sam versus supernatural beings like Cas and Jack. The Winchesters can use magical weapons and supernatural allies, but they themselves are still human, still "mortal". And I think that ultimately, what has enabled them in the end to prevail against their adversaries was not really any magical powers they managed to utilize. What gave them the edge were their very human qualities: their courage, their determination, their devotion to family, their ability to win friends and inspire loyalty, their willingness to sacrifice. That's why to me it seemed so wrong and false to have Jack declare, "I'm a Winchester!" Because he is not human, not mortal, and his victory over Michael was only possible because he is a supernatural creature of equal or greater power to an archangel. So yes, the Winchesters were sidelined because they were out of their league against Michael. The thing is, though, that never mattered before. But now that the focus is on making Jack the center of the show, apparently now it does.