Bergamot

That's what I saw as well. Dean felt awful for what this was doing to Sam and Cas, and I don't think he blamed them for lashing out the way they did. But he wasn't giving up at the end, or changing his mind, or saying he had been wrong. He is going to let them look for another way, but he doesn't really think they will find one. He still believes that he will have to take Michael with him into the box, and he is prepared to do that.

Yes! That was my first thought after the episode, that I was happy because Dean is still Michael's Cage! I would like to see Michael again, myself, but I also would not mind if they made Dean going into the box the season ending cliffhanger. Yes. And I think it's ridiculous to talk as if he was somehow beaten into submission by a couple punches from Sam. Dean was ready to go; it was Sam and Cas who couldn't handle it. It's true they are all taking a big risk with the fate of the world, but in the end, Dean will be able to do what he has to do. I think he just felt that he needed to give Sam and Cas more time to look for another solution, but more than that, from what he said at the end, I think he just wants to give them more time to accept what he believes is inevitable.

As a follow-up to the previous episode, this was kind of letdown, but maybe it was only because of how much I liked the one before. There were some really good scenes, but way too much of Nick. I fast-forwarded most of that stuff when re-watching because, like many others, I could not care less about Nick, and having to do this made it obvious to me how big a portion of the episode was about him. I badly want Nick's story to be over, but I fear it is not. Hopefully Sam is really through with him. I actually disagree with Sam's saying that he could have ended up like Nick. There have been many, many people on the show who were possessed by a demon (or an angel), and there was never any indication that it turned the human evil afterward if they survived, or that they retained demonic (or angelic) traits. If I recall correctly, until now the only person who was a psycho murderer after being possessed turned out to have been one all along (in "Repo Man"). LOL, Pondlass, I know what you mean! I was sighing over Dean in this one as well! If they had an extended version of the scene with Dean measuring and cutting and welding, I would watch every minute! Repeatedly. As for Mary's day-long trip to pick up some groceries, well, that's pretty typical of this writer, isn't it? I mean, to have a character disappear from the story for an unexplained period of time because the writer wanted them off-stage but didn't want to bother writing a plausible explanation? I believe that Perez has done this more than once, and it's a bad habit. Most egregiously, in his first episode, where at one point Dean peels out in the Impala to race to Sam's rescue and apparently takes all night to get there, arriving in the morning after everything is over. I agree that they did try harder with Mary, and I didn't hate all her scenes this time. Mostly because Dean is so adorable when he is in little-boy mode, so those scenes worked for me. For some reason, I just melted when he told her that "I have a surprise for you", and they go inside and he has set the table for their dinner. Awww. Still, though, I have to admit that I was irked at her right off the bat, when Sam was on the phone with her the first time about Dean's visit. "He said it was just a supply run, but I'll take any excuse for a visit," she says. She'll take any excuse for a visit?! Unless Bobby was keeping her chained up in that cabin, if Mary was longing to see her sons, and maybe even spend some quality time with them, all she had to do was go to the bunker and do it. And unfortunately this matters because we have seen no indication since she returned that Mary particularly wants to spend time with her sons, and in fact have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary. Okay, whatever, Mary can do what she wants. I don't care. But I don't like it when the writers expect us to forget what we have already seen on the show. This was sad beyond measure to me, as was Dean being completely unable to talk with anyone about the horrific death waiting for him. And Jensen made that fear so very palpable in that last scene with Sam. I still feel so disturbed by all of this. Yes, me too. And not just in that last scene. When he and Mary were having dinner, and he is trying to be cheerful, he says something like, "Isn't this great, here we are having dinner together, no clouds on the horizon", and his voice kind of catches at the end, and you can see what he is actually thinking and feeling (Jensen is so good at that), and it kind of made me want to cry.

To me, the sneak peek comes across not so much as being about Dean not wanting to die this way, but mostly as Dean wondering what is up with Sam. It's just a brief scene, of course, but Sam does seem remarkably calm here to me, almost like he already knows he doesn't need to worry. If it seems that way to Dean as well, maybe that's why he is worrying whether Sam has planned some way to stop him. In the promo, we see Cas saying angrily, "Stop this suicidal plan!" If Dean is already on his way to carry out his plan, and he hasn't said anything to Cas, then at what point is Cas saying that? Did Sam tell him on his own? If he did, why would he not tell Dean? Or is Cas not talking to Dean when he says this? We still have almost half a season to go, so obviously it is not time yet for a season-ending cliffhanger. Something must happen that changes things, but I don't know what.

Having an unexpected day off, I decided to enjoy a rewatch of the last two episodes. I still love this one -- for me, one of the best in several seasons. Very few scenes that I fast-forwarded through when re-watching (basically just the ones with the hapless AU hunters.) Yes! I am embarrassed to admit how many times I have watched Dean taking down those vampires. The toss of the gun to Pamela, the leap over the bar, the slicing of the vampire heads -- one backhand slice, one forehand slice, the end! -- and then the casual walk back around the bar: it is, as you say, sheer poetry in motion, albeit very violent poetry. I also liked seeing Michael's fighting style again as well, very cool but so different from Dean's. I noticed that while Michael was fighting in the bar, in the "real world" he had a very pleased smile on his face; rather than being annoyed that he couldn't use his powers and so had to physically fight his opponents, he seemed to be really enjoying it. I don't know that this means anything, but it is an interesting character note. Yes, that part makes me laugh every time! That is one of the things I liked about this episode, the way it actually had some moments that made me laugh. Without minimizing the deadly seriousness of the situation, the writer managed to acknowledge the inherent absurdity of the good guys trying to go up against an all-powerful archangel like Michael, considering how totally out of their league they were. You want to talk privately, but you want to keep an eye on Michael -- so you just try to move a little out of the archangel's earshot? (As MIchael says, seriously?) You have Michael under control. (Just keep telling yourself that!) Do you put Michael in the trunk? (But Garth's in there!) Do you put him in the dungeon? (If the magic cuffs won't hold him, the dungeon won't either.)The only chance you have is to somehow wake Dean up so that he can force Michael out (science experiment time!), but it is an impossible task. (Nothing left but blood and bone.) It was all impossible from the beginning, and yet somehow, thanks in the end to Dean's inner strength and his strategic thinking, they manage to win the battle. (At least temporarily!) And the fact that it is ridiculous to think that they could defeat the most powerful archangel ever created -- as Michael cheerfully and continually reminds them during the episode -- just makes their win more satisfying. This is something that I miss from the earlier years of the show: the Winchesters as unknown underdogs, so that the supernatural beings that they battle against find them amusing and totally underestimate them -- that is, until it is too late. I don't want a show about heroes who are so famous and successful that all they have to do is shout at demons to make them run away in fear, or who have magical powers that can melt monsters. I like watching heroes who are sometimes overwhelmed and bewildered, who fumble things and maybe even sometimes look foolish, but who in the end manage to win because of their grit and perseverance and ingenuity. And this is why I think Michael's anger at God works so much better than Lucifer's. Lucifer was basically mad because dad no longer favored him, threw him out of the house, and then left. His daddy issues were self-centered, small-scale, and far too mundane and generic to be all that compelling. But Michael's rage is specific to his father being the Creator. Only someone with God as their dad would be angry for this specific reason and want to carpet bomb the entire multiverse just to get back at him. I don't know if it is the writing, or Jensen's acting, or both, but I think it is definitely an understatement to say that Michael's anger at God here works better than Lucifer's. (I'll never forget the stupidity of that episode where Lucifer, like a petulant, whiny teenager, locks himself in his room at the bunker and won't come out because God won't apologize to him. Just so stupid.) I thought the depth of Michael's anger with his father was impressive, and his explanation for why he was going to destroy the world actually made sense for the character. And Jensen did a great job conveying Michael's overwhelming bitterness and disillusionment, as well as his anger. You could hear his complete and utter contempt just in the way he pronounced the name "Chuck" and said the word "Nothing" -- and feel the molten lava of his rage when he told Cas that God had abandoned them "because He doesn't care!" BabySpinach, I liked what you said in the Writers thread about how the idea of Chuck the Divine Writer creating alternate worlds as rough drafts -- and then unfeelingly abandoning them as failures -- "has again re-contextualized, expanded, and deepened the world of the show". Again, it is an idea that actually makes sense in terms of what we have seen of Chuck, (although I'm sure Chuck would deny it), and it makes Michael's mission, while not forgivable, at least much more compelling to watch.

The relationship between John and his sons was one of the best aspects of the show in its early years, deep and painful and complex and heartrending. The fact that he died and his sons never got a chance to resolve everything with him was one of the best things the show has ever done, because it was so true to real life, where things aren't tied up in a tidy little bow but somehow you have to go on living. I think that maybe the worst thing that has happened to the show is that those who write it have decided that their job is not to tell a good story about complex human beings, but to "give the fans what they want". If they are bringing John back only for a brief sentimental reunion full of hugs, then it is nothing more than a gimmick and fanservice. Like pointlessly bringing back a fake Bobby and a fake Charlie. So apparently they wanted a really big gimmick for this milestone episode, and they wanted to bring back John. And from things I've heard the actor say about the character, I don't believe he would have been interested in coming back unless John was shown in a positive light. So I am not expecting anything beyond sentimental fanservice. Having said all that, if there is not enough time in the episode to dig in the complex relationship between Dean and John, one of the most fascinating and fundamental aspects of the show, then there shouldn't be "enough time" to go into the relationship between Sam and John. Because then the episode won't be about the continuing story of Dean and Sam, about what each of the two main characters might need or should get, it will simply be about the gimmick. If so, let's get the gimmick over with, so that maybe we could go back to telling a story.

I think so too catrox. I don't see Michael making such a clear-cut distinction between Dean fighting the dream and fighting him. Michael didn't want Dean to start "squirming around" again -- in other words, he didn't want to arouse his fighting spirit. Putting Dean in one of his bad memories would arouse that spirit -- Dean being Dean, it could cause him to fight back, to try to endure, try to overcome, try to escape. He would, in effect, be fighting Michael, whether he knew it or not at first. Creating a scenario of contentment for Dean was Michael's attempt to distract him, to keep him quiet. And it was working, too, although I think Dean's mention of a feeling of deja vu was a sign that his mind was still fighting to get free, and he might have eventually realized what was happening, just as he did with the djinn. In any case, I don't think it ever entered Michael's mind to worry that even if he were aware, Dean might have the strength to successfully trap him the way he did. Michael was much too arrogant to realize that he had a tiger by the tail.

Wow, it's been a long time since I was watching an episode of the show and was sad to see how fast the minutes were passing, instead of having them drag by. I always knew that Jensen would be awesome as Michael, if the show just gave the character a chance! And Dean was awesome too! "I'm the Cage" -- loved it!

That would be so, so nice! I found the conversation between Michael and Jack interesting too, because as you say, although on the surface it was Michael talking about Jack, it was actually Michael talking about himself. Any loyalties that Michael once must have felt have "faded away", as well as his ability to even care about "minor diifferences" between one world versus another, or good versus evil. Talk about nihilism. As you say, it would be so interesting to see Michael and Dean interact, and see how they affect each other. There have been scenes I liked too. But also, as you say, a lot of time wasted on random crap. The mistake the show made was not in bringing Michael back now, it was in putting him on the backburner in the first place.

Not just any mail -- he paid extra! Certified Priority Express! Hee! Sadly, I think one reason I found that funny is not just because of the actor's good comedic timing with his lines, but also because I am still hoping that those presents I ordered online are going to get here in time for Christmas. Yes, if the fate of the world depended on the mail, we would all be in trouble! Yes, I don't care that Dean lied to Kaia, but it does still bug me. Not because I don't want to have Dean shown doing something wrong, but because if he does, I want it to be part of his story, not just Dean being used as a prop for a character like Kaia. When Dean lied to Sam about John's last words, it was an important part of his story, and the motivations and implications for his character were examined. But Dean lying here to Kaia, just like the scene of Dean pointing a gun at original Kaia, (which was again shown taken out of context in the previouslies,) is not really about Dean or his character. It is about using Dean as a villain to create extra drama and sympathy points for the writer's precious pet character. The show should be using Kaia to tell Dean's story, not using Dean to tell her story, because this is not her show. Of course, as Aeryn points out, it is a moot point anyway, because it has been acknowledged right from the start that Jack's grace is going to regenerate itself. Michael himself just confirmed this, so I expect the process to start sometime in the next few episodes. It is ironic because if this season has been about anything, it has been about Jack's story, about Jack learning to be human without his grace, and about Jack getting sick without his grace, and the fact that it is going to be just rolled back makes all the drama seem like much ado about nothing.

Mine are crossed too! I think that the one thing that pleases me the most about the way things ended is that Michael made it clear that he wants Dean as his vessel. He didn't want Sam, or Cas, or even the writers' darling, Jack. Shockingly, he didn't even want one of those other two writers' darlings, Dark Kaia or Nick! He wanted Dean back, because Dean is his true vessel. He said he temporarily moved out because Dean was "squirming" too much -- I guess Dean was so much trouble that Michael could not properly "digest" him -- but he always intended to get him back. And that makes me happy. Even though I know it won't last long enough. I think it's revealing that this is what they used for last season's finale and again for the mid-season cliffhanger. Deep down inside they know what is the most exciting and intriguing storyline they currently have available. Now if they would only DO something with it, instead of subjecting us to all the other boring stories they have inflicted upon us this season.

Exactly, Aeryn! This is about fictional characters, and whether or not the writers manage to make you as a viewer believe what you see. As Sam said, this is not the first time we have seen them lose someone. When John died, I absolutely believed in the grief we saw in Dean and Sam -- I thought it was one of the most authentic depictions that I had seen of grief for a parent. And when Sam died in Cold Oak, and when Dean was torn apart by the Hell Hound, I absolutely believed in the reaction of each brother to their loss of each other. When Bobby died, I believed in the intensity of their grief. And again when Kevin died, and then when Charlie died. And this had nothing to do with how I felt about the character that was being lost -- to be honest I was pretty tired of the characters of both Bobby and Charlie by the time they died, and so wasn't upset about losing them. Yet the grief that resulted from these deaths felt earned to me. The fact is that, like it or not, the reaction to Jack's death did not feel authentic to me. And to imply, as Sam did, that this death was somehow worse than all the previous losses they had undergone -- just no. The writers simply failed to convince me of this, and as a result the characters' reactions to Jack's death came across as exaggerated and unconvincing. I don't dislike Jack; he is just not that important to me as a character. And I don't think what the writers have tried to do with him, especially in this episode, has worked very well at all. But since a point was made that this may put me in the "minority", I have to say that I don't care how big the crowds are who line the streets of Twitter or Tumblr or "elsewhere", shouting fulsome praise for the Emperor's new clothes -- if in my opinion, the Emperor is not wearing anything, I'm going to say so, without apologies.

I agree, but let's face it, from now on, there is no way anything in the universe will ever be allowed to be more important to the main characters than Jack's health and happiness. Apparently, after it was established that Jack was not like Lucifer, all the writers could come up with for the character was to make him the purest, most innocent and lovable person that has ever existed, and the object of everyone's love and concern. Characters in children's books have more depth and complexity. Sorry, but Jack is so paper thin as a character that they literally could replace the actor with a cute, fluffy little puppy and it would make no difference. I am serious. Everyone could lavish love and attention and care on Jack Puppy, and he could love them back and make them happy and make them feel good about themselves for taking care of him. They could take him for rides in the car and teach him how to do things, and pet him and tell him what a good puppy he is. Good points! The only thing I can think of is that the Keeper of the Empty has gone insane. Anyone sent to the Empty was not supposed to be suffering, they were just supposed to be existing in a state of total unawareness for all eternity -- the Keeper described it as being "asleep", didn't he? (If I am remembering correctly -- I wasn't paying much attention either!) But Jack managed to wake Cas up, so that he was wandering around the Empty in an awake state, and having to interact with someone who was awake was so traumatic to the Keeper that he/she/it went completely insane and now wants everyone to suffer. That's just my fanwank though; I really do not believe that the writers put that much thought into it. Their lack of thought and effort is becoming more obvious and egregious all the time, and this is probably just another example. I liked him too! I also liked his office, which is apparently inside a big clock tower, and the way it looked with all the file cabinets and messy piles of paper. So refreshing after the antiseptic hallways of Heaven. I guess the angels wanted Anubis to work for them, but were unable to force him to move into a clean white cubicle and digitize all his work. Good for you, Anubis! You keep using your abacus! :-) Very good observations, BabySpinach! Dean was very Dean-like here. I did notice and approve of the fact that he was the one who convinced Lily Sunder to help -- that really is one of Dean's strengths. Also his relationship with Jack is frankly the only thing that works for me in terms of enabling me to think of Jack as a real person. The way Sam and Cas act toward Jack is so exaggerated and over the top that it just comes across as bizarre to me -- and sorry, writers, it does NOT feel to me like the way people act with their kids, no matter how many times you say it is. Dean, on the other hand, is so real in his interactions with Jack that he can make Jack real for me too.

I liked Anubis and his abacus! I thought he was pretty cool. And I kind of liked what he said about how it is not him or God that makes the decision when it comes to the final judgment of each individual, but that we each make that decision ourselves with the choices we make. As for Lily Sunder being able to change her fate with her final choice to help them, it worked for me, and I found it a satisfying end to her story. One thing I didn't get, or maybe I missed something. But if all angels go to the Empty in the end anyway, what was the big sacrifice that Cas made by saying he would go to the Empty? Just the fact that he was ready to go when the Empty wanted him? Would he have been the one to decide that for himself anyway? I don't get it. Lots of drama with Jack, but basically there didn't seem much of a point to it all, since he ended up in the same place he started. Minus part of his soul, of course. I guess maybe that will cause a problem later. Probably nothing permanent though, I would guess, considering the way things work on the show now. And apparently Lily was able to get her heavenly reward with just a shred of her soul remaining, so I'm sure he will be able to join his mother in the end.

Even if I set aside the whole debacle of the Nick/Lucifer storyline, this episode still felt unsatisfying to me. I have to say that Jack's storyline doesn't really matter to me much more than Nick's does. I admit that I enjoyed very much the scenes of Dean and Jack on their little road trip, but it is the character of Dean that makes those scenes work for me, adding depth and charm to them, not the character of Jack. If it had been someone else with Jack, for example Bobby, taking Jack out and letting him drive and going fishing with him, I am sure that I would have been wanting to fast-forward through their scenes. After all, I can't recall anyone finding the scene with Bobby teaching Jack to box especially memorable or delightful or special. I don't hate the character of Jack, and I don't have anything against the actor, but I think the writers have pretty much failed to make him work for me. They have been so incredibly heavy-handed about making Jack special and lovable that it seems to me as if the harder they try with him, the less I want to see of him. One thing that I think would have helped in this episode is if the show maybe had Dean and Jack talk to each other about certain things -- for example if Jack had talked to Dean about how he had been ready to sacrifice Dean to get rid of Michael. And maybe Dean could have explained to Jack about what he was going through when Jack was born, and why he believed Jack was dangerous during that time. I think that Dean has actually had a more interesting relationship with Jack than Cas or Sam, with all their unending and unconditional acceptance and praise and support. But the writers don't seem to want to do anything with this, except make Dean appear guilty and wrong for not relating to Jack from the start exactly as Cas and Sam did. I was really sorry that Jack was not healed at the end of the episode, because I feel like the last thing the show needs with Jack is for the writers to try to milk this story for EVEN MORE heavy-handed and treacly drama. For me it's not exactly a problem because it is a soap-opera type story; it's because it is a poorly written soap-opera story. I disliked very much Sam telling Cas, "We've all lost people, but this is different." Yes, they've lost other people they loved, but this is, you know, DIFFERENT! This is a bigger deal! It's more important, more intense -- it's more heartbreaking! Except, you know, it's not. Not in my opinion. And just having someone in the story assert this as a fact, rather than the writers having to do the actual work of convincing us, does not make it true. Because of the time of year, I was thinking about the episode "A Very Supernatural Christmas", and I was struck by a certain similarity to this episode. In both episodes, a character has only a short time to live, and wants to enjoy doing something simple for the last time. Kind of a soap-opera plot, I guess. But unlike Jack's story, Dean's desire to celebrate Christmas one more time really did break my heart. For one thing, it was really significant why Dean was going to die; it was an important part of the story they were telling us about Dean and Sam. And the flashbacks to their childhood mattered as well. It mattered why Dean wanted to celebrate Christmas with Sam in his last year, and it mattered why Sam first resisted, and then in the end gave Dean his wish. It wasn't just sentimentality; it was about who they were as characters and how they had come to this point in their lives. Yes, it is nice that Jack wanted to go fishing with Dean, and told him he'd had a good life (although his saying that kind of came out of nowhere for me.) But there is no way that scene can have the same kind of emotional resonance for me.

This is a comment by @ILoveReading from the "Optimism" episode thread, but it reminded me of something I was thinking about while watching this episode. In thinking about this group of hunters, I still am wondering what happened to that gang of little children in the AU hunters' camp, the ones that were enjoying Jack's shadow puppets. Not that I am particularly interested in getting to know all the hunters as individuals either, but it is very blatant to me how the group of AU hunters that Mary and Jack were living with over in the AU, the ones that Mary was so attached to that she couldn't leave them behind, have morphed into an entirely different group of people now. No families, no children, no older people other than Bobby. Remember when Dean and Sam were trying to convince the hunters to come back with them, how they made their case before 2 or 3 of their leaders, who were all skeptical, grizzled, hard-bitten war veterans? Those guys would have laughed in Sam's face if he told them they had to wear body-cams to hunt and gave them little speeches on the importance of "doing their homework". The ones we have now, the ones who listened obediently to Sam's "camp counselor" pep talk and later clustered happily around Maggie when she returned to the bunker, looked to me like a group of eager young twenty-somethings. They are, not coincidentally, just the kind of hunter potentials that would be suitable for Sam's Chiefdom. I am sure of course that someone can fanwank an explanation, but it is the very fact that the show didn't even bother with one, and just expected us to accept the status quo in the bunker when the season opened, that helps make the bunker hunters storyline so contrived and artificial to me.

I had similar thoughts about the episode. Such simple needs we have! Please don't make Dean look like a dick, please don't make him look incompetent, please don't show food falling out of his mouth as he is eating with his mouth open! We should not have to worry about stuff like this for an amazing character like Dean, we shouldn't have to be relieved when there are no cheap shots against him, but we do have to, and it's sad, really. Aeryn, I like the way you put this! Dean makes good lemonade, I think. :-)

But Sam doesn't care if Jack's inexperience gets Castiel killed? Or does he think Cas is a better hunter than Dean? As for Sam "learning his lesson" from what happened with Maggie, I will believe it when we see him acknowledge this on screen. All we saw was Mary telling him he was a natural and was doing a great job, Dean being all supportive and complimentary, and AU Bobby sincerely apologizing for criticizing Sam's decision about Maggie. Why would he think he needed to change his approach to anything?

Yes, I actually enjoyed Dean's interactions with Jack, and I think he does make a good mentor for him. The problem, as you mentioned, is the lack of the Michael!Dean story, except for its use as something else for Dean to feel guilty about. I don't think it should be too much to ask that there be a Dean story that is about Dean, and not Dean as a supporting character to someone else's story. I also agree that Sam the control freak is out of control. I wish I could believe that the writers want us to see that, rather than finding him admirable. His little "people helping people" speech to Charlie, though, really makes me think the writers want us to think Sam is admirable and right. One of the oddest moments, I thought, was at the very beginning, when Sam takes off in order to meet up with Charlie while Dean is gone overnight, without even sending Dean a text to let him know. On the other hand, Dean is required to check in with Sam (because we all know how Sam would react if he didn't) before he goes anywhere with Jack. Even if it was just a courtesy to keep Sam informed, why didn't that work both ways? And what did Sam mean by "Just you guys?"? Does he think Dean is incapable of looking after Jack on a hunt, although he is okay with Jack going on hunts with Cas? Or does he just not like people deciding on their own what they are going to do? First of all, Sam was dismayed to learn that Charlie wanted this to be her "last case" before Charlie even said that she might go live on a mountaintop somewhere. Second, are the only two choices available to Charlie either living on a mountaintop by herself or being a hunter? There are other ways to live your life in which you can help people. And if Sam was just worried about Charlie cutting herself off from people, he could encourage her not to do that, without telling her she needed to be a hunter to be connected to the world. And third, as Charlie so succinctly informed Sam, it is her life, and she gets to decide what to do with it. Maybe if Sam was her best friend, and knew her inside and out, and as a result he really believed it was a mistake for her to stop hunting -- then he could give his opinion. But he doesn't even know this Charlie; she is basically a stranger to him. So sorry, I don't think Sam's actions here can be papered over as concern for Charlie needing other people in her life.

Yes. You would think the AU people might be fixated on the problem of Michael, but there has not been a single indication that any of them are concerned about him or that they have even asked anything about him. They seem perfectly happy to spend their time going on practice hunts for rugarus and ghouls, and in between they just hang out in the bunker. Because being a hunter is awesome! One scene in the episode which I intensely disliked was the one where Mary earnestly and approvingly tells Sam that leading the hunters is "what he was born to do." Not so much because of the heavy-handedness of the writers on this subject (although it is incredibly tiresome.) But I couldn't help but remember that moment in "In The Beginning" -- that excruciating, exquisitely painful moment when Mary says to Dean, not knowing that he is her son, "This job, this life, I hate it.....You know the worst thing I can think of? The very worst thing? Is for my children to be raised into this like I was." That important, powerful, pivotal moment, for both the character of Mary and for the show, has now been overwritten for me by this one, with Mary being as pleased as punch at the thought of Sam not only having been raised as a hunter, but teaching others to become hunters. (And anyway, what happened to "Screw destiny, right in the face?" Didn't that used to be like, one of the major themes of the show?) And that ties into another scene in the episode that I hated, the one at the end where Dean reassures Sam that Maggie (because she "learned from the best" -- seriously, writers, can you give it a rest?) "can't wait to get back in the saddle". And Sam's reaction is like "Huh, cool." Because there is nothing more awesome than having a young girl like Maggie dedicate her life to hunting. I mean, Sam and Dean certainly don't want to see someone like that settle down, live a normal, safe life, go out on dates, maybe go back to school. Remember when Sam turned down a free ride to Stanford, because there was nothing more that he wanted after the way he was raised than to "get back in the saddle" to hunt with his family, and what a happy moment that was? Or am I remembering a different show? I remember when Dean, speaking to Veritas, described the life of a hunter this way: "You're covered in blood until you're covered in your own blood. Half the time, you're about to die. Like right now." And he told her that it wasn't a lie that he wanted out, that he wanted a family, but that it was too late for him. Remember Dean trying to warn Patience that the hunting life was "nothing but pain, horror and death"? Now girls like Maggie wanting to be a hunter is something to celebrate, apparently. Again, something that goes to the heart of the show has been overwritten. If they keep scooping out the insides of the show like this, pretty soon nothing will be left but a hollow shell. And that's a shame.

Absolutely! At least as far as I'm concerned. Speaking for myself, the fact that I dislike the whole "Hunter Potentials" storyline (that's a good comparison, Pondlass!) does not mean that I would prefer that Dean and Sam be switched. If for whatever reason only one brother can be entrusted with micromanaging a group of tedious, interchangeable hunters, while the other is Michael's protected meatsuit, then I would rather that Dean have his current position in the story. But the point is that the show has to DO something with that story! My fingers are crossed too! :-)

Well, Dean did tell Bobby how hard Sam is working at being the Chief -- no food, no sleep. Good grief, how many times this season has there been a discussion about Sam not getting enough sleep? Yeah, we GET it, he is only sleeping 3 hours a night. Unlike the show's writers, though, I don't particularly see this as a sign of being a great leader. All it means to me is that Sam has a problem with time management and with delegating, which is kind of the opposite of being a successful leader. Maybe he could take a workplace seminar on it, if he can find the time. That would be about as interesting to watch in my opinion. I don't know, I have a feeling that the "bunker full of hunters" is here to stay on the show. I find them irritating and dull -- not to mention a drastic re-imaging of what hunters are -- but like I said, if they all leave, Sam won't have a group of people to be the leader of. And I don't think Dabb is going to let anything tear that storyline away from him. He made it very clear from the first episode of the season how important he thinks it is. When this episode showed us the crowd in the bunker, all sitting around polishing their guns, I couldn't help remembering Kripke's comments on the Roadhouse, how when he saw the scene with all the hunters sitting there polishing their guns, he realized that it wasn't a good idea and wanted to get rid of them. He was pretty funny about it. The difference is that I think Kripke's main motivation was primarily tell a good story, and I think he tried to make decisions based on that. Times have changed though.

Yes, I think that Aeryn wins the prize for summing up the Mary and Dean relationship. The show couldn't even be bothered to give them one conversation together where she asked how he was doing, told him he could talk to her if he needed to, told him they would find a way to fix things. It was so much more important that she have that conversation with AU Bobby, I guess. Could the show's writers make it any clearer how unimportant Mary's relationship with Dean is to them? I mean, it's not like he is one of the stars of the show or anything, and it's not like losing Mary as a child is one of the fundamental parts of his character. And if the writers think they somehow fixed that at the very end by having her earnestly tell him that she and Bobby were only a few hours away, they were wrong. It looked to me as if the only reason Mary turned to say something to Dean right then is because Bobby drew Sam aside and so she was stuck talking with Dean, like when you are at a party and you are forced to make conversation with the person standing next to you. I actually liked the brevity of Dean's "Mom -- go. All right?" I feel as if he has tried to disconnect himself from her emotionally, and I can't say that's a bad thing. Mary doesn't deserve a son like Dean.

When the djinn said to Dean that he was going after hunters because "you told me to", for a second I honestly didn't know he was talking about. I guess because I didn't think that the connection between Michael and Dean was going to come up again. I wonder though why the monsters from last week's episode were not similarly misled? Yes, that was very intriguing! It's nice to have something to speculate about in regard to Dean. I really liked both of these parts as well. And I agree that the actress who played the daughter was good. She made the character into such a real, three-dimensional person from the moment she appeared. Unfortunately almost everything else was forgettable. The scenes mentioned above were for me like solid outcroppings of something interesting to watch, rising up out of the big pool of Boring which was the rest of the episode. Mary discussing her relationship with Bobby -- boring. Bobby discussing his past -- boring. Basically anything at all with either Mary or Bobby -- boring. Anything to do with the AU hunters, or the AU hunters being led by Sam, or Sam worrying about being their leader, or Sam being reassured what a good leader he is -- boring. Those who find these parts of the show absolutely riveting are welcome to them. I don't think I agree with Sam that all of the AU hunters necessarily need to have their hands held, supposedly because they haven't been hunters before. No, they've only been fighting and surviving, for years, an all-out war against various supernatural creatures -- what skills could they possibly have? Sure, they need someone to give them information, the way that the original Bobby used to provide info for Dean and Sam, but I don't get why they need a general to command them. Do they really need to all live together in the bunker, and have Sam give them assignments and instructions every time they go out, and never go anywhere on a hunt unless Sam knows about it, and then be required to report back to headquarters afterwards, and when they go on their assignment have to wear a body-cam, and have to check in regularly on a pre-determined schedule? Man, control freak much? Personally I don't think I could live like that myself. More importantly, the whole scenario pretty much drains away a lot of what I found interesting and watchable about living the life of a hunter. Also, do none of them want to just settle down in this world and live an ordinary life instead of being hunters under Sam's command? (Why exactly does Maggie have to be a hunter at all? Because she's really not suited to it.) If Bobby and Mary can opt out of life in the bunker, why can't others? But I guess if they left to live their own lives, then Sam wouldn't have anyone to be the leader of.

Thank you, catrox! I kept trying to remember where I had seen that actor before. He has a very intense, kind of scary, air about him onscreen. I did think while watching the episode that maybe they were going to do more than they did with the character of Stuart. The writer seemed to be taking care to develop him at the beginning into a distinct character with serious problems, but there was never any resolution to his story, just a quick comment at the end saying he was safe from the ghost now. He just disappeared from the last half of the episode (in true Perez fashion!) by means of his hospital bed coma. I have to say that although I guess it was nice that Samantha and Dirk were so understanding with Stuart, I'm not sure they were doing him a favor. The guy could not even order a pizza, play a video game, or assist a customer at work without erupting into a volcanic rage. He spent his time trolling on the internet, got fired by his previous boss, got kicked out by his roommate, was stealing from his current employers, and obviously needed professional help for his issues. But again, unlike Ronald, whose story actually had a beginning, middle, and end, Stuart's just stopped in the middle of the episode -- so I guess we will never know if Stuart got help for his rage issues, or ended up getting himself shot to death in a road rage incident when he picks a fight with the wrong person. Not that I wanted a whole episode about him or even cared what happened to him, because I really didn't, but it made the inclusion of all those details about his life seem pretty much superfluous, especially since it didn't seem to tie into anything else in the episode. I think it goes back to my first impression when I watched the episode, that I enjoyed it -- and there definitely were a few tasty scenes -- but as a whole found it thin and unsatisfying afterwards.