marshmallows

Okay I see where you are coming from about the more pain later. I can definitely understand that POV. I just have a different one. For me, the deal breaker still should have been Dick because she obviously isn't over the GHB thing since she makes a huge deal about how Madison gave her the drugged drink and wrote slut on her car. She was obviously fine with him hooking up with some random girl- He tells her and then asks if she still loves him and she replies "Yes" in a sweet tone then they kiss. Then all is good until she finds out he slept with Madison and she instantly brings up the GHB. So for me, it is most definitely what her trust issues with him bulls down to. So him sleeping with Madison brought all those feelings to the surface. I understand her feelings, but really if I were her- his and Dick's relationship would have been done or we would have been. I probably could have forgiven him with time for the Madison thing since she really had no idea what was up with the drink and just thought Veronica was all over her boyfriend because she was drunk. I'm obviously a LoVe shipper, so I'm just going to leave that as you and I see them differently. I think Veronica was unfair to him a lot of the time. But, I also think Logan did a lot of idiotic things. I don't think their relationship issues were one-sided. I think it was a combination of her unwillingness to open up and let anyone in, in fear of being hurt, and his self-destructive behavior. I also think they both had a hard time letting each other go. The only way that worked is when she moved away to Stanford, because as long as they are in close proximity to one another they are like a month to a flame- no matter how dangerous and explosive they just can't get enough. And once they both grew up they were better matches for each other than they ever could have been as kids. He needed to gain a sense of self and she needed to learn to be okay with being vulnerable. I think she is still working on it on her end, but I think Logan knows who he is now and is a pretty stable companion for Veronica.

I think Ryan and Summer actually could have been an interesting ship and a nice change of pace for Ryan. He wouldn't have to constantly save Summer. And Lord knows Ryan would have treated her better than Seth did (and this is coming from a die hard Seth/Summer shipper.) But, if the show had went this direction I think it might have done better. The constant back and forth of Marissa and Ryan and putting two really messed up characters together caused for a lot of excess drama.

I personally felt like the writers wanted me to like Dick. I wouldn't say he was ever super likable- but he was funny comic relief. But, then they added the bit that basically made him an indirect rapist. I totally understand your opinion. I just have a different one. I think with what they did with the character definitely made him less than some harmless guy who was just horny, but if they had left that part out, he really wouldn't have bothered me as a character.

Never thought about it that way. I assumed he did it to protect Lilly, but it was probably more of a combination of wanting to protect Lilly's memory and protect himself from further humiliation. Good point!!

This always bothered me. I thought Lilly was younger than Veronica, Logan, and Duncan for the longest time until that dream sequence. It would have made the Aaron and Lilly thing even creepier so maybe that's why they made her older than everyone rather than younger.

Good points! It would be a much tougher choice for her now since a lot has changed. But, I just think deep down if she puts everything aside and asks herself if she wants to be human or be a vampire? She would choose vampire. And for the twins, someone supernatural and strong needs to protect them at least until they are older. Obviously, people are going to want to hunt them down for reasons xyz, and with Alaric and Stefan both being human, Caroline's vampirism is probably the twin's only saving grace. So there are two perspectives on the twins. As for Stefan, I would hope Caroline would not throw away what she truly wants just to be with Stefan. I hate that Damon wanted to do that for Elena. It needs to be something you truly want because it will literally change your entire life.

I just listened to this book on audible last month. It was not the same without Kristen's narration, but I still enjoyed it. The overall mystery was pretty good. I'm glad we got to revisit Grace Manning. The way they left that story in s2 was unsatisfying and always something I hoped they would touch on again so I am glad that they did. This story was a lot slower and had less of a surprise element than the first book had, but I was okay with that because we finally got back into the skeeziness that was going on with the Sheriff's department. I still want solid answers on Keith's attempted murder and Sach's actual murder. I'm sure Rob Thomas left this open in case there is another book or movie (which I so hope there will be.) Loved, loved, loved that we got more backstory on Logan's reasoning for going into the Navy (and just more Logan in general because I find him to be one of the most fascinating characters to ever be written.) The fact that he fell of the rails and overdosed twice after Veronica left, was very fitting and true to character. He had a lot of terrible things happen to him and he also created a lot of terrible situations for himself. He also never knew how to handle it because no one ever truly loved him except Veronica- so when she left it makes sense that he would lose it. I like that he saved himself from his own fate by joining the military- it was exactly the kind of structure and discipline he always needed and also a good outlet for his anger, as well as gaining support system that he never really had before. Ugh, I just beg of you RT, please do not do another freaking triangle if you continue the books. I love Leo and think he is a great ally for Veronica (and would have been a better fit for the love triangle in the movie, but you went with Piz so w/e lol), but we do not need another triangle. If you must break them up, please come up with a more original reason than another triangle. I would find it way more compelling if somehow Logan got injured and just the thought of losing him put a serious strain on their relationship and Veronica breaks up with him because she just can't stand the thought of losing him... and of course have them get back together before it's over. I know the book's are basically from Veronica's POV, so of course we hear thoughts in her head, and her thoughts about Leo vs. Logan are completely normal thoughts, but please just leave it at thoughts...

I don't fully understand the cure thing, mainly because the writers have changed what the cure is capable of doing since it was introduced... However, I don't think the cure is the issue here... it's that Caroline would not take the cure even if she could. Remember way back in s4 when the cure was introduced and Klaus told Caroline that she likes being strong and never growing old, then she admitted that she would not take the cure. So I don't think the plight is over availability, it is over willingness- essentially Caroline likes being a vampire- she is the only vampire on TVD or TO that seems to have a handle on it and actually made her a more likable/stronger person because of it. I just wish that the show would address this because it would be fascinating to explore, but we don't really have enough time for that since it is ending.

You could not have said it better! I completely agree with this, except if I have to choose: I choose Micheala and Asher. It is so refreshing to have a show that primarily focuses on the plot and uses romantic pairings as side notes (and this is coming from a person, who loves to ship couples) But with shipping comes disappointment because a) Your couple is a part for most of the show and eventually become endgame, but you didn't even get to enjoy them being together while the show was on.. or b) They aren't endgame and you wasted all this time on a couple that didn't work out for reasons.. It's awesome that this show actually has quite a bit of romantic pairings, but none of them are compelling enough/more important than the plot for me to get emotionally invested in. I know some shows like One Tree Hill or The O.C. are about relationship dynamics and ships because that is their plot, but even shows like Buffy that have an outside plot still seem to draw you in and get you emotionally invested in a ship that will most likely disappoint you. So basically I give props to Shonda for writing a compelling story that does not revolve around ships.. The other relationships are far more interesting than the ships which most shows fail to do. For example, I would much prefer to watch Annalise's and Wes's dynamic over Wes and Laurels. (RIP poor Wes)

Toby being part of the A team made complete sense. It was awesome. When I saw that reveal, I was like YAS all of you just got played lol. But, then the writers backed out of it because of Spoby, what an absurd cop out. Spoby had to be the most boring and dysfunctional couple at this point in the series so ruining them really should not have been that big of a deal. They never should have even should have touched the Ezra storyline unless he was going to actually be Charles. All this storyline did was make him look like a sick and twisted pedophile all for a book (seriously a freaking book!) I mean if they were going to back out at the last minute of him actually being A, at least let him use the same lame excuse Toby did and say "I was doing all of this to protect you, to try to find out who was harassing you all this time." But, no they went with lets make this already inappropriate relationship even more creepy and inappropriate and borderline psychopathic sexual assault... At least if he had been A, I could have had some respect for what he was doing because A is obviously evil and insane, but he did this for a book, I still can't get over that lol. It also made me sad because this was the one couple I connected to the most (probably because of the ungodly amount of screen time they were given) and they ruined it and not even for a good reason...

I'm months late to this, but I just read everything trying to see if anyone had any idea what the hell was going on. And obviously no one does... so good, not just me, or bad- that the entire fandom is this confused by MK's batshit crazy writing. Because, seriously I understand keeping the audience on edge (I think Shonda Rhimes does a good job with this for How to Get Away with Murder), but at this point all MK has is a nonsensical story with giant plot holes and unlikable characters. My favorite part of this mid season finale was Caleb and Mona. I just love that they are sitting their sipping tea and putting sugar cubes in each others drink while the girls are off being insanely stupid and getting shot and decapitating people. At this point, my hopes of Aria being A are dying and having Caleb and Mona being the final A of the series would be hilarious and make some sense since they are both geniuses, she is the original A, and he originally helped Mona in the first season. Also, I'm so over Caleb and the skeeziness that was the Haleb/Spaleb triangle, so at least this way his character could go out with a bang instead of "You used to actually be an awesome ally for the girls, and the only significant that was good/cared for Hannah and her friends.") That all died with Spaleb, so I would be pretty happy with the twist of Caleb being in on this the whole time- it would almost redeem him in my eyes. Plus we all know Marlene has to have some sort of shock factor and Big A just being Mona isn't shocky enough for her. I really hope Ali does not have Em's eggs in her, that is just so gross and illogical. I could have gotten on board with this ship (even though I heart Emily and Maya) but if they do the egg storyline- well shipping them is going to be really hard/basically over. I feel the same way a lot of you do, I used to care about the characters and the ships to an extent, but now I basically feel indifferent to every character except for Mona (which we do not see enough, probably because she is too much of a complex/compelling character for MK to write well for extended periods of time). But, I will finish the show because I have a hard time dropping shows and I just have to see what kind of illogical BS that MK is going to try to sell for the ending because at this point even some of the candidates that make sense, still won't fully make sense because of the damn CeCe storyline that basically effed up everything.

I actually enjoyed the Ezria ship the most until they torpedoed it in s4. The only way to salvage the ship and to make some sense of the show is to have Aria as Uber A and Ezra as her second in command. It would explain why they always had so much more screen time than any other couple and basically lived in Ezria land. Why Aria never had anything that terrible happen to her like all the other liars did. It would make her taking him back after the book fiasco, make much more sense since she would have been the one to contrive the plan. It's just their motives for tormenting the girls would still be hard to explain... The best candidate for motive/reasoning behind the torture and the games is a triple threat of Mona, Toby, and Jenna. Toby and Jenna have actual logical reasons to hate Ali and the liars and well they would need Mona because bless it, Toby and Jenna just aren't smart enough to pull this off without her, plus we all know Mona had it out for the liars and Ali, plus all her marbles are loose anyways. Plus, I just love Mona. I wish they would have just went with this in like season 4/5 and just left out all of the complicated Dilaurentis/Hastings stuff, because these writers just aren't smart/creative enough to pull it off. Plus, having it only connect to Ali and Spencer leaves out logical reasoning for torturing Aria, Emily, and Hannah. Shonda Rhimes needs to come in and save the show at the last minute lol.

Ugh, but that is such a cop out. I want it to actually be one of the core 5, it would just make it really twisted and I honestly think most of the fandom would be more satisfied by it being a character they liked/trusted instead of someone we have never met or another twin..

I'll honestly be disappointed if Uber A isn't one of the core 5 or at least one of their significant others. But, essentially everything leads back to the Dilaurentis and Hastings families. This basically makes it to where it has to be Spencer or Ally if they were going to do one of the core 5 girls. So I'm thinking it won't be one of the core 5... I still voted for Aria, but only because she has the most clues linked to her character and well I just kinda want it to be her (no logic there)

Idk if you saw my other post, but I was saying that the entire scenario seemed OOC for Dick to me. They portrayed him more like one of the American Pie guys who was horny and goofy. Not an evil rapist. But, they put it in the plot so therefore I have to accept the fact that Dick is well a dick, it just bothers me that the writers and characters seemed to have forgotten what he did. The writers seriously should have thought that through, if they were going to want Dick to be a regular likable character. Oh Veronica definitely had deep seeded issues with Madison, but I just don't see how him sleeping with her when they were broken up was the deal breaker, and him being friends with Dick wasn't. Not that the Madison thing isn't a valid reason, but when you are okay with him being friends with the person who did drug the drink and encouraged his brother to rape you, the Madison thing becomes a bit invalid. And yes, it definitely ended up with more pain, but I think Veronica's biggest issue with the whole situation is she never really forgave Logan for having the GHB in the first place. She let it go way too quickly in s1. I think this is why she would take little things he would do and blow them out of proportion. I don't think the rape was his fault, but they really should have talked that out more because ultimately I think this is the real reason why she didn't trust him. Because honestly, he didn't really give her reasons to distrust him to the extent that she did. Well, except for when he wouldn't tell her about how he and Mercer set that hotel on fire. He should have just been honest. But, for the most part Logan was a loyal boyfriend who truly loved Veronica.

Hi so you posted this forever ago, but I just recently watched VM and am totally obsessed. I was going to try to answer some of these questions, if you even still care lol. 3. I always thought that Veronica thought it was Duncan at her door. When Logan turns around, she seemed surprised (but then again that could be because he is bloody, and she has no idea why.) Assuming she was happy to see Logan and not Duncan, maybe she was just happy to see that he showed up after she accused him of killing Lilly, and then didn't mention his father killing Lilly and attempting to kill her thing since he was bloody and crying. 4. I don't think she ever told Keith. 5. Yes, that would have been gold. 6. I really agree with you. I understood why she freaked about the GHB thing, but after they had the heart to heart about that, I am really unsure as to why she wouldn't just confront him about his alibi and the camera above his bed. It was extremely unfair and I was totally with Logan when he yelled at her on the beach. Like the one thing she had a real reason to be upset over (the fact that he had GHB at the party she was raped at) she seemed to just gloss over. I think her glossing that over is why they always had such deep seeded issues. This really should have came up again at some point in their relationship. Like when he asks her if she loves him? She could have said "Yeah, but I don't trust you." And then this could have invoked a fresh conversation about the GHB. I can think of at least 3 other ways, but since this is a s1 forum, I don't want to spoil anything to new watchers. Btw I didn't even try to answer your first two questions because I have no idea what happened to Backup, and I never caught on to the keys part. Interesting observation!

Oh Veronica's and Wallace's friendship is definitely more solid. I just prefer to watch her and Weevil's interactions. And some of that may be choked up to Francis Capra being a better actor, but I don't think Percy is a bad actor. I love Wallace's and Veronica's friendship, but I just love that weird connection her and Weevil have and how they pretty much always have each other's back while antagonizing each other at the same time.

I'm saying I felt like that entire scenario was OOC for Dick. Like, he is a total horny pig when it comes to women, but nothing about his character strikes me as some evil person out to rape or encourage it. He just seemed like one of the guys from American Pie, you know horny but harmless. I hate that they ruined his character by making him the bad guy in this because I feel guilty every time I laugh at his jokes now. I can understand that. Blowing up the plane was definitely OTT, but I guess it was the only way we could believe Veronica might shoot him since he apparently killed her father. I don't think she would shoot him over the kids on the bus or even her own rape. I think her father was the trigger. Idk how else they could have made it believable that Beaver killed her father.

I am a 100% LoVe shipper and I will go down with my ship, but I would never make it to where other people felt uncomfortable. I can't stand when shippers do that. Indeed, Logan did mess up quite often and I can see that. And the whole breaking up and getting back together was exhausting, but definitely realistic considering their age and their personalities, but sometimes I just wanted to shake them and scream "Can you just like be happy for more than two episodes?" Omg Piz's hair was very unfortunate. I'm so glad it was fixed by the movie. Yay, another Leo fan. He may have actually been the best for Veronica, but like I said I will always ship LoVe. Yeah, Dick was hilarious. I hate that they wrote in the part about him encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica. It soured his character. I mean I think he is an idiot and obsessed with sex, but it just seemed ooc for Dick to encourage something that evil. If I were Veronica, that friendship would have bothered me much more and been wayyyy more of a deal breaker than him sleeping with Madison when they were broken up. I get it, Madison was a bitch, but it's not like she knew Veronica was raped or that the drink was drugged. I think everyone wanted more Weevil. I know I did. I actually preferred their friendship to hers and Wallace's (now that's probably an unpopular opinion lol.) And if you don't mind me asking, why do you think Mercer was a more compelling villain? I'm just curious, because I think they were both pretty good villains, but I would probably pick Beaver as being more compelling just because we got more back story on him.

Unpopular Opinions: 1. I loved Gia (btw I had no idea this was an unpopular opinion until I read this forum). She was hilarious and weird, what's not to like? I also agree with whoever said that she should have been the one that was raped in s3 and dated Logan in s3, it would have made everything much more personal. I would have felt more connected to the story. 2. Idk why there ever even was a team Piz. If anyone could hold a candle to the epicness of LoVe it would have been Leo D'amato. They missed out on a better triangle. Like, I might would have actually believed that Veronica would have difficulty choosing between Logan and Leo. Piz just wasn't her cup of tea. Not that he isn't a great guy, just not the guy for Veronica. 3. s2 is my favorite. I thought the MoTW episodes were better than s1's. I also felt like the actors meshed better together. Also the story lines played out better. And that finale and how they connected everything was epic. I was completely shocked that it was Beaver- and sad because damn it Rob Thomas you made me like this character and then he turned out to be the big bad. 4. I actually enjoyed s3, even though it had its issues, I never thought it was bad television. I still enjoyed the story line. I do wish that they had done it like the previous 2 seasons where they had one underlying story instead of 3 big ones. But, it didn't make me dislike.