Wayward Son

Just watched the release clip and I’m in total agreement with Dean! I also agree with @catrox14 we may discover that it’s actually Jack in Sam’s body. I agree with Dean that Dean is way off. Sam is not the type to sugggest they head to a strip club nor is he the type to go for beer for breakfast, and I also don’t think that in anyway reflects badly on Sam.

I still think Sam conveniently backing off now comes down to “Oh we only have Alexander for 13 episodes and we’ve used four of those already and he has the big reunions with Cas next week! He needs written out of your episode Yockey” LOL

I'm in a Cas appreciation mood and want some Cas talk so I figured I'd post here and see how people would rank Cas' storylines in the seasons starring him i.e. from S4 till now. From best to worst I'd rank them LOVED Season 4: His introductory season is everything a Cas fan can ask for IMO. His first scene at the end of Lazarus Rising is epic and remains the best character introduction on the show to date. The only one that could possibly match it is Death's IMO. Misha does an exceptional job of first introducing the more ruthless aspect of Castiel when he threatens to throw Dean back into hell if he fails to follow orders, but sub sequentially allows us to begin viewing his softer side.. I love the conversation between Dean and Cas during It's the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester, which first reveals his love of humanity. I love the talk between Cas and Anna where he begins to doubt the validity of the orders given, but he is not yet ready to fully commit and recoil from Anna during On the Head of a Pin and of course his ultimate rebellion in Lucifer Rising. Season 5: A great follow up to his storyline in season 4. It was a dark season for Castiel as his faith in God and the cause he was fighting for began to waver. One of the things I loved most about the season is the way it showed us how feasible his transformation into The End Cas truly was. We saw him become human in all but name as the season progressed and of course there was the fantastic "I found a liquer store... And I drank it" scene, which highlighted how he was already turning to substance abuse to dull the pain he felt. The storyline however paid off in Swan Song when he 'died' for the cause only to be resurrected by Chuck with his faith restored and ready to be the new sheriff in town. Season 9: While I'm not a fan of the season overall I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Castiel storyline of season 9! I feel his time as human was one of the most defining periods for Castiel on the show to date. I think his talk with Sam during First Born illustrated the importance of him becoming human. While Castiel has always loved humanity he had always been a big picture thinker i.e. he'd put the fate of the whole ahead of the individual. It was this difference in viewpoint that often led to conflict with the brothers. However, being human, being surrounded by them and not just in a hunting capacity, allowed him to truly appreciate the importance of every individual and fighting for their lives. In addition to being a great season in terms of developing characterisation this was also Castiel at his most capable. He took charge of an angelic faction, which he led competently and ultimately he got to achieve his goal i.e. kill Metatron. LIKE TO MEH Season 8: I have mixed feelings on Season 8. On the one hand, I loved that we got to see him feel truly repentant for his actions and make the decision to stay in purgatory and fight against the monsters he'd unwittingly let into the world. In addition to this, I liked that they continued the escapist behaviour of season seven through his refusal to help out in heaven before he ultimately overcame these urges. So all in all I loved what they did up to Hunteri Heroici. However, I hated the Naomi storyline and would have preferred to see them continuing a redemptive journey for Cas, but at least he wasn't presented as an idiot here and this was something done entirely against his will :(. Unsurprisingly, I wasn't pleased with the season concluding with idiot Cas getting misled again, but at least Dean was also somewhat duped by Metatron and it led to Season 9! Season 10: I'm in the process of rewatching at the moment and I did enjoy the continuation of Castiel valuing the lives of individuals over his own as shown by his refusal to continue acting as a grace vampire. I really can't remember much about Cas in this season mainly just that he helps Sam break the mark so I'm going to probably come back and edit this post later. Season 6: This is a season where I originally hated Castiel's arc. However, seeing the way he was treated in later seasons made me more fond of this one. To start with the good; he was a bad ass this season! We got to see him take down other angels in episodes such as The Third Man! He assembled an army and held his own against the far stronger Raphael for over a year. The main weakness of this season was the fact that Castiel's characterisation was scarified for the sake of being able to throw a plot twist at the end. One episode simply was not enough to make up for the fact Cas' actions had been ambigious throughout the season. IMO this is shown through the fact that there are many fans who remain convinced he purposely brought back Sam soulless (in spite of the fact IMO The Man Who Would Be King made it clear he did not) and many fans don't seem to realise just how serious a threat Raphael initially posed and view his actions as a simple power hungry grab for power. IMO the handling of Cas in season six meant that a fan needed to be truly invested in the character and his motivations to understand the nuances of his thinking otherwise it was far too easy to just assume the worst. I also think the breaking of Sam's wall wasn't the best idea as it was such an extreme attack on Sam's person and turned many fans against him. DISLIKE TO OUTRIGHT HATE Season 7: This is just an awful season for Castiel. They start off by making him a big bad that slaughters countless angels and humans before dumping him in a lake so they can introduce their shiny new monster. A massive F you to both Ben Edlund (the episodes writer) and Sera Gamble (the show runner) for treating him in such a contemptible manner. Then when he does return they decide the best way to handle this was escapist Castiel who goes around making dumb jokes and trying to escape his problems. Although he does get to play a role in the demise of Dick Roman. I still would have preferred Castiel had got to deal the killing blow, but he at least played a key part in his demise, so that's something right? Season 11: This was the beginning of the Dabb administration and the end of Castiel as a decently portrayed character on this show. I hated the Lucifer storyline! They made him look like an idiot who undermined the heroic Sam who said no to letting him out of the cage. There was no pay off in the end as Casifier had absolutely no input in to the defeat of Amara. This was similar to season 7 where Cas was responsibile for releasing the bad guy into the world only this time he got absolutely no opportunity to make up for it :( Season 12: This season started off promising! It had Castiel determined to make up for his mistake and throw Lucifer back into the cage and we got to see him affirm his love for the Winchester's. However, this was completely undermined when they practically cut him out of the second half of the season and only let him return to fight betray the brothers and then die in a pointless and humilating manner.

And so did the shifter from Bloodlines along with the alpha from Two and a Half Men! I have the headcanon that shifters that can do so without shredding are the shifter equivalent of true wolves i.e they’re within four generations of the alpha shifter! This is purely head canon, but it makes the non shredding shifters fit within the lore of the show.

Episode 13 is Devil’s Bargain and Episode 14 is Only the Best Intentions

Knowing this show I wouldn’t be surprised if the title relates to a random guest star of the week, but with the return of Michael the title “A Most Holy Man” makes me think of Dean and his title of “the righteous man”

Why would the crossover event affect Supernatural? Since they're on the same network they won't air at the same time?

Honestly, I think the Flash is simply suffering from being on Halloween night. I'd be very surprised if it doesn't rise back to 0.9 - 1.0 this week.

Dabb IMO has shown a pretty formulaic approach to writing Castiel. He starts the season off in a seemingly hopeful note (S11 (which I largely credit to Dabb despite having Carver's name on it officially) begins with him dealing with the fallout of Rowena's spell and seemingly taking steps to ensure he won't be manipulated anymore until boom he's an idiot who lets Lucifer out of the cage, which offers no advantage in fighting Amara and is still causing problems for them now. While S12 likewise starts with Cas taking proactive action to help put Lucifer back in the cage and his bond with the brothers was seemingly stronger than ever. However, after episode 12 hes thrown into the background, appears a handful of times to betray the brothers and help the spawn of Satan be born and gets himself killed through sheer stupidity). So I'm pretty much taking the approach of "trick me once shame on you and trick me twice shame on me" when it comes to Dabb's handling of Castiel and the spoilers of him making yet another fucking deal confirms I'm right IMO. Eh, does Castiel actually get story-lines though? I'd argue that he's treated as a mere plot device to aid the story line of other characters such as Sam, Dean and Lucifer without the first two having to get their hands tidy (which is an interesting contrast to Carver who sometimes went too far with regards to letting Sam and Dean get their hands dirty, but I digress). Castiel gets to make all of the mess but doesn't get to redeem himself afterwards and the storylines become about other characters in particular Sam and Dean who take over as they clean up the mess Castiel made of things. It's actually become something of a running joke as Castiel himself and other characters have referenced the fact that he keeps making mistake after mistake with no signs of him getting a victory. So yeah I'm sorry but in my eyes so called "valium" Dean is no worse than "plot device only there to make the stupid decisions needed to advanced everyone elses storyline" Castiel. ETA: Hope it's OK that I put this post in here! I figured it best fits since it contains bitterness about upcoming spoilers (the whole Cas making another deal) and Castiel is neither bitch or jerk. If it belongs elsewhere I'll be happy to move it.

Taking this to bitterness spoilers so I can talk about the upcoming stuff without worries. Plus, I'm still not sure if Feathers vs Jerk even belongs in this thread? haha

I'd say its being over the death of Sam and Dean both. At this point it's been there, done that! Secondary characters may still get a response from me due to the fact their place on the show isn't guaranteed, but at this point Winchester deaths have been done far too much for the drama to hook me and obviously the show will never write Sam and Dean off so there's no suspense to it either.

LOL no one is getting diminished to prop up Castiel. Castiel’s only purpose these days is to get his ass kicked by everyone else and to be the one to make the stupid decisions while the brothers sit and look pretty while escaping all culpability.

I mean I wouldn’t get crazy and say I love it or anything, but knowing what to expect meant I was prepared for it and able to ignore it better than the first time I watched. Plus, as much as I dislike a lot of the Sam and Dean happenings, the Castiel stuff in s9 was so good compared to the bullshit Dabb has given Cas fans like me for the last 2.5 seasons.

The angel being killed by the mob of homeless people is ridiculous and the ultimate testament of how low angels have fallen since their badass introduction in s4. And a sign of how over deaths on this show I am is the fact I spent Dean’s scene rolling my eyes while muttering “stop dragging it out. Hurry up and die already”. Such an over the top and melodramatic scene bleh

I FINISHED S9!!! The worst of my rewatch is over! Although I actually didn’t hate it /as much/ this time around :)

You’re right! Although IMO that’s when the retconning began even if it was implicit and still debatable at that point :) . It was definitely the episode where they went from neutral followers of death and the natural order to just as petty as the other angels.

April talks about the banishment from heaven and how she was hired by Bartholomew due to the power hole in heaven created by Naomi’s death. I actually think the retconning began in Taxi Driver where an angel blade took out a reaper.

I did acknowledge that it’s probably unfair of me to feel this way, but I do have more respect for those who will walk away while a show is still good than those who stay year after year while watching the show become a shadow of its former self. Just my opinion :)

True, although fairly or unfairly, I do have more respect for the likes of Sheppard who quit when his character feels spent, or the leads of other shows who opt to end a show rather than allow it to keep going and decline in quality.

Replied in the Unpopular Opinion Thread

Honestly, I’ve thought both Jared and Jensen have only been in it for the money since at least S8 and S9! It can’t have been for the writing considering how terribly both were written under Carver, or the “petty little jerks” era as @DittyDotDot likes to call it.

I did say Sam didn’t put up much of a fight in my original comment. I thought that was enough to show my comment was also directed towards Sam. My following comments were about Dean because he was the brother the people I was responding to had focused on. I don’t intend to further post about this issue since we are not supposed to debate in here. I just wanted to clarify that yes I was speaking of both brothers.

Yes, because sadly Cas cares far more about them than they care about him.

See the thing is, whether it’s right or wrong, Dean is the type to make a deal, or if not that make some other risky move to save someone he cares for. If Dean were to some day definitely state “Im done with making deals for anyone” and proved that by not trying to bring Sam back the next time he dies (and Sam came back by some other method) then I’d say fair enough and be happy he developed as a person. But IMO this isn’t the case and if/when Sam dies next he’ll be rushing to make some foolhardy move to bring him back. So since dean is the type to make deals etc I think it’s accurate enough to point out when he doesn’t care enough about someone (in this case Cas) to make that kind of risk for.

I just watched and got the same as you! I just feel sorry for Cas that he thought the brothers cared enough about him to risk making a deal for while in reality Dean was just like “burn the body” and Sam didn’t exactly put up a fight. Poor Cas :(