tessathereaper

I agree. In fact I just read that quote from Jensen again on Tumblr, where he talked about wanting to have that conversation about Dean's stolen childhood and everything it had done to him. This was the only chance to have it and it wasn't there so it's never happening. And I do understand that within the confines of the story they wrote, it couldn't happen, time was too short and the writers don't give a damn so that's how wrote it. And the fact is, we don't need the seasons after JDM left to get "Dean's stolen childhood" that was from the time when John was STILL there - that's from Something Wicked, that's Dead Man's Blood, Salvation and Devil's Trap, that's from In My Time of Dying. That's from all sorts of little implications and acting bits in other episodes. We were either given evidence of or strongly implied. I remember in fandom discussions back then we were talking about Dean's parentification during Season 1 first airing, so in that sense, the idea of John having been abusive/neglectful was there in Season 1, it's just if the actor had stayed obviously they probably would have been persuaded to not add in the details which would remind everyone of what a terrible job John did as a father, it would have just been sort of vague. Not that it wouldn't be the case, but we wouldn't have the actual stories of "oh that time Dad left Dean in Juvie because Dean got caught stealing food so they could eat" "or that time Dean cooked and didn't get it quite right so John yelled at him and threw it out" but the guy who left his 9 year old alone for a weekend in a motel, with full responsibility for the 5 year and shoot to kill orders and clearly already did this on a regular basis(and which would quite clearly increase as the children got older) and then only left that traumatized child with his anger and disappointment was already an abusive parent. He was already stealing Dean's childhood. That doesn't come from later seasons, that's right there in Season 1. I think the best we can say Dean got from this is the evidence that he doesn't really need or want John's approval anymore, Dean didn't actually always have John's approval, we know that, we've been told and shown that in the story. Sam just saw him that way, in season 1, because of Dean trying to be peacemaker to keep his family together, unfortunately, instead of appreciating it, what usually happens is BOTH sides think the peacemaker is taking the other's side and it makes both of them mad at the peacemaker. So most likely Dean was not getting John's approval, despite turning himself inside out and upside down trying to do what John wanted. John took out his frustrations on Dean - we saw this in Salvation(or was it Dead Man's Blood? Dead Man's Blood I think) - John has a disagreement with Sam, Dean breaks it up, John immediately for no apparent reasons decides to insult Dean's caretaking of Baby and tell him "I wouldn't have given it to you if I'd known you'd ruin it". That's a control tactic often used by addictive/narcisstic/etc parents - they remind them they are incapable of doing anything good on their own and that anything good they have comes from the parent, it's very damaging. It's a way of making themselves feel powerful, in control. I think it's safe to say that something Dean got a lot during his growing up years - John is frustrated about something be it a hunt or Sam or life in general. I dare say that "meal" story is sort of an example of it - it wasn't right, it wasn't good enough(or at least so Dean would think) so John threw it out, because Dean couldn't do it "right". Who knows what the real problem was - maybe it reminded him of Mary as Dean posited all these years later, maybe something had gone wrong on a hunt, maybe John had argued with Sam, doesn't really matter. The point is he took out whatever it was on Dean. Given that what we saw of the family dynamics in these episodes were meant to be a sort of quick version of their general family dynamic(and in fact is almost allegorical in IMTOD, the scene where Sam and John are fighting and Dean can't make himself heard, because he's between life and death, until he finally gets so frustrated he's able to "Obi Wan" the glass. Dean is invisible to both Sam and John, they don't really see HIM - in life as in near death). What we saw in this episode was an example, from 2003, that John never did really learn to see who Dean really was - he may be "proud" of him, but what does he really know? Whatever they could sort of tell him, leaving out lots of details, in a few hours? He still doesn't have anything to say to Dean beyond the same generic thing he said to him in 2006, wanting Dean to have a family or a home. He literally knows nothing about Dean's own hopes and dreams or desires and wants. The best he can want for Dean is a "nicer" suburban version of what Dean was already doing. In a way it's sad I guess, he knows nothing of the really amazing intelligent strong man Dean is and has been for a long time and was already deeply into becoming even in 2005. Good for Dean having accepted what he has but that doesn't mean everything he's been through and John's very large role in it shouldn't have been acknowledged instead of ignored within the show itself. If not from Dean then it should have come from Sam - if Dean could share his "Mary time" with Sam's problems in Season 12, then frankly Sam should have said something about what John did to Dean in his conversation with John, esp when coupled with what Dean said about John sending him away when he was mad at him to Sam last week.

Actually no, not when they impinge on the character's role in the show, which they do. They take from Dean, his strengths, his traits and try to give them other people(almost always unsuccessfully) and then leave Dean with nothing in return(or lameness in return). Right down to trying to copy or re-create HIS iconic scenes with other characters multiple times through the years. And besides which no I don't think Sam is a leader, he doesn't come across as one, he can give all the orders he wants and people can call him Chief, but IMO he doesn't come across as a leader, that's something you either have or you don't and IMO he "don't". :) It IMO comes across as something a writer wrote, not as a natural organic part of the character. As for John, to comment on @trudysmom 's comment, the only people John barely managed to lead was the two sons he spent his time abusing, neglecting or attempting to brainwash. (There is no evidence the two early characters we knew of Pastor Jim and Joshua(?) viewed him in any sort of leadership capacity, there seemed to be some friendship there but if anything they were people he'd met from whom HE'D learned from). Bobby sure as hell didn't, they had fought and stopped speaking prior to Season 1 as we learned in Bobby's first appearance on the show. Otherwise John seemed to generally make everyone else around him dislike him or at least not really want to have to deal with him anymore than they had to. What he did was basically "lonewolf" it. He didn't draw people in, he drove them away, he was hard to work with, he didn't listen to suggestions, etc, etc. That doesn't seem like leadership material to me. Dean has shown a history of being able to draw people in, change people's minds, etc, in a natural organic way). So no IMO we were not shown a John who really had any real leadership ability.

Singer definitely seems to put a point in the column of "grown men who perhaps were not popular with girls in high school taking it out on the handsome guy now that they have a little power over him"

"For whatever reason" - right Singer, you ass, because Dean looks like Jensen Ackles, seems like reason enough. :)

Exactly that could be kind of cool actually. A memory of the war in heaven, a memory of a better time in heaven, etc. And Dean could still "embody" Michael in the memories.

Same I may bitch about the show but I am so proud of them, this is such an amazing achievement.

Same, there have been some great very dramatic stories and performances in such situations. ETA: I was going to mention the CSI episode! :) I'm pretty sure Grave Danger is considered one of CSI's best ever episodes. Can't remember the character's name but it was the character played by George Eads who was buried alive. And with the Michael situation and the show being about the supernatural, it wouldn't just be limited to "the box", because Dean would literally have "company", Michael and all that entails including internal change of scenery scenarios.

You know what? IMO it doesn't matter. Sam should respect Dean's wishes in any case especially in this case because this is a case where it can literally go to hell in an instant if Michael manages to break out. This is about saving, well basically saving the universe because Michael wants to destroy all the worlds. They literally don't have any other choices now and frankly they really can't just dilly dally about "well let's take more time" because that door could bust open at any minute and it's pretty much game over. Dean having self-esteem issues doesn't mean his thoughts and ideas and wishes should be disregarded and constantly questioned because that isn't how it works. Self esteem issues doesn't mean suicidal, Dean has rarely ever been suicidal IMO. Not being particularly worried about dying even looking at it as a relief isn't the same thing as suicidal, Dean will likely always have self-esteem issues it's one of the reasons severe parentification of the sort Dean suffered is considered to be a particularly heinous form of abuse, it's literally practically hard-wired into the person's brain. That doesn't mean you get to disregard everything with "well you just want to kill yourself, you're a quitter!" In fact I don't think that's what Advanced Thanotology was about either, Dean was questioning the meaning of what they were doing, in Sam's presence, not wishing for death. That isn't suicidal, that would seem to be a pretty natural thing to do once in a while esp if going through a tough time as Dean was. He was upset, he was grief stricken, he was questioning and lacked hope. Even with Billie, which Sam wouldn't know about the details, Dean was like if it's my time, it's my time, he was there doing his job, if he happened to die doing it, so be it. It was more complex than "Dean's suicidal". Difference situations are always going to get different reactions and different motivations from people, why should Dean be any different? If Sam can't tell the difference, maybe Sam should try paying more attention to his brother and context rather than constantly trying to keep him in a box which allows him to easily disregard Dean's thoughts and feelings as a result of the traumas he's been through. *** Does anyone know how to add a quote to an already posted reply? I wanted to add this to my previous reply rather than adding a new post but I don't know how, it won't let me copy it(I mean I can copy it and manually make it a quote but then it doesn't reference the name of the poster being quoted? For what it's worth I don't think Billie is lying or making stuff up and I don't think the book was cryptic. I think Dean said "What am I supposed to do with this" because well he was reading about his own death in a horrible way. Even if Michael kept him alive just to torture him mentally for centuries, most likely he'd eventually die so that is what would be in the book. In fact I think it was precisely because Dean does NOT give up and always keeps fighting that he said it, because there he was faced directly with it. "Wait a box? the bottom of the ocean? I die when!" I think that might get a "What am I supposed to do with this?" ETA and with regards to the whole releasing Amara thing - IMO I'm not really sure the issue is? Death died, a new Death took his place. Yes it was risky and they didn't know the consequences but that has literally nothing to do with Amara and the Darkness being released who was the big bad of the next season. No Dean shouldn't have killed OG Death to save Sam, but then again Death shouldn't have made that part of the bargain, surely he could have come up with some other way to keep Sam from being able to rescue Dean from outer space(Damn I really want that show, because you just know some space inhabitants would crashland on his planet or something and what not, Deean in Spaaaace! :) ). None the less Dean did it, without knowing exactly what would happen, but it had nothing to do with what actually DID happen. The only thing it did was get a brief zombie outbreak and Billie as the new Death. What is it we are trying to blame Dean for here? The spell to release her was happening whether Death lived or died and whether Sam lived or died. Because Sam did not do what he should have done, which is to say as soon as heard what the Mark really was - he should have said "whoa hold up, gotta make a call" and been honest about what they were attempting to do. In fact if he'd done that - Amara wouldn't have been released, the Empty wouldn't have come into play, original Death most likely wouldn't have died and frankly Sam wouldn't even have ever had to kneel and "accept his fate". That is one Sam and Castiel alone, IMO. Dean has no share in it. At worst Dean would have still been walking around with the Mark of Cain, possibly occasionally getting a little overly violent when killing bad guys. Or he'd die and become a demon again which is still better than what did happen and what is happening now in terms of the fate of the world.

I don't disagree that this wasn't so bad, but it's still par for the course and it's way past time for the show to stop it. If in this case it wasn't as egregious as in some others, even if was an OK use of the this particular show related trope. This wasn't that bad but the thing is its still part of pretty much the same pattern and same response "oh Dean can take it". He can, Dean IS strong and he's adult and he's empathetic and I love him for it, but IMO that doesn't mean the characters doing it to him should get a pass and an 'oh poor baby', for once again making it all about themselves and their feelings and putting it on Dean to comfort them when they should be comforting HIM. They are all big boys and should all be able to take it but somehow none of the rest of them are made to and it's never really acknowledged within the show. Sure they kind of gave Dean "equal say" this time by extracting the promise to put him in that box when the time comes but IMO Sam and Cas are still being selfish in their reactions and only putting more pressure on Dean. The show should call them out on it in some way. In fact the show should have some OTHER character call them out on it because apparently a third party is the only way it's given any serious consideration. Make them feel bad for it, because they should feel bad for it. Dean's strong for them, but he shouldn't have to be, it shouldn't be expected of him, which it is and if he isn't he is the one who is generally criticized for something that shouldn't be expected of him in the first place, and they sure as heck shouldn't characterize it as "stupid", "quitting" no matter how desperate or upset they are. Because no matter how far Dean has come, no matter how much growth he's made, those are loaded words, not just random ones pulled out of desperation, they are purposely manipulative. Just because Dean's grown enough to see through it(so it seems) doesn't mean they should get a pass and pat on the back and all the sympathy for their feelings when they use them.

Because he can "take it" don't you know? So it doesn't matter how they treat him, he "thrives" on it apparently. It's such a double standard and so cruel it makes me want to cry really.

Exactly. Personally I don't care about the punch beyond the hypocrisy of the treatment Sam's punches vs Dean's. I never cared because these guys grew up sparring and training together, they are highly physically trained individuals, a little punch here and there under mental duress really isn't anything IMO to either one of them. But what Sam said? That's another story and more importantly Sam once again making it all about himself. How come it's never time to treat Dean well? Why is it that no one is EVER expected to put Dean first at times like this? Why is it that Dean is always expected to just "understand"? This is more of the same. It's always fine to insult and belittle Dean because "Dean can take it"? And people in the show are far meaner to Dean than they are to anyone else, IMO. That is wrong, IMO. Someone being able to "take it" doesn't mean it should be done and that the other characters shouldn't be called out on it. Sam was wrong in what he said, wrong in what he did and he was behaving in an incredibly selfish, childish, self-centered manner and he's just making it that much harder for Dean and all he's showing is that Dean CANNOT count on him for emotional support when he really needs to. This episodes showed that Dean is alone, again. Not physically but emotionally. He's doing it for them because he understands but frankly Dean shouldn't even be being put in that position by them, where he has to put them and their feelings ahead of his own, again.

Well the ocean isn't really part of keeping Michael in, that's just to keep other people out. It's still ridiculous don't get me wrong to keep risking it when Dean keeps saying how hard this is BUT. at least as I recall, the Ocean isn't necessary to keeping Michael in just keeping other people out.

I do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want. Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed". So does lying and sneaking around, because that puts the effect right where it should be, on Dean's trust of Cas and Sam but at least Dean doesn't get call stupid by people he cares about and treated like he somehow doesn't know any better and doesn't even know his own mind. Dean's not the one in the wrong here, Dean's not the one being weak and Dean's not the one being selfish. They need to stop projecting their own problems into Dean.

Totally agree. Somehow Sam always makes it about him. DEAN is the one suffering trying to cage an archangel in his head, Dean is the one dealing with this yet somehow Sam manages to make it about not trusting him(and IMO "not trusting the team" is the same thing, it still comes down to Sam making it about anyone and everyone BUT Dean and basically the show doing the same thing, because clearly Sam is supposed to be in the right here). It has nothing to do with trusting them, Dean isn't doing this because he's suicidal or he's selfish. So Dean not only has to deal with this, he has to deal with being sensitive to Sam's feelings about what DEAN is going through? Yet Sam shows zero acknowledgement of what Dean is going through. Given how he only barely managed to get control of Lucifer long enough to jump into the pit, you'd think he'd have a little more sympathy for trying to control an archangel in your brain. Dean started mentioning his father sending him about and yet again Sam made it about himself. Memememememe, Sam's like a damn opera singer. :)

http://www.justjared.com/2019/01/31/who-should-play-batman-after-ben-afflecks-departure-vote-now/

Same, seriously. I hope Dean is just placating Sam and Cas for now and goes into that box, even if he has to hire the freighter himself to dump it in the ocean. Anything but Dean giving in to Sam's little "but what about ME, why don't you trust ME!" moment and then Sam and Cas "saving the day". At this point I'd almost give John a point if instead of them whitewashing his abuse of Dean(well we know they are going to do that) if John found out what Dean has to do and was like "it's the right thing, I can see Sam is making this harder for you, I hate that you have to do this, but I'm proud of your ability to do the right thing in the face of such lack of support." Maybe not said like that, that's terrible dialogue but damn I want one person on this show to actually understand and see what Dean is doing and that he is RIGHT, not weak, not giving up, not suicidal and that everyone else is making it that much harder on Dean but that Dean has the strength to do it anyway. I hate that it would be John, but even a stopped watch is right twice a day so...any port in a storm.

No Dean wouldn't have. (and the show made sure that everyone and their brother gave Dean the speech about respecting Sammy's choices and how strong Sam was and what a good plan it was, etc, etc). When Sam was jumping into the cage with Lucifer, hell Dean was HELPING him. I remember that scene, with the rings, where Dean is actually trying to help Sam do what he set out to do, only to have it turn out Lucifer was in control. I remember because there was somehow something so touching about how Dean would do that despite it being the thing that would cause him the most pain, there he is trying to help Sam jump into the pit. (Then Dean turns about with tears in his eyes and grips his hair in desperation but he still did everything he could for the rest of the episode to make sure that plan was carried out up to and including Sam jumping into that pit) Also, when it comes to suicidal, if that's what they believe, in Season 8, Dean was very gentle and kind talking Sam down(who was once again somehow managing to blame Dean for his own state). No one is ever kind and gentle with Dean in these situations. It's usually "you're doing it wrong, you'are weak, pathetic, giving up, it's about me and how you don't trust me or you've disappointed me after I've done so much for you"("or why aren't you putting Sammy first you selfish boo hoo princess"). Even if Dean gets initially upset about something, he gets over it pretty quickly and starts putting the other person first, trying to somehow be supportive of THEIR decision. Dean is just continually expected to put other people first, even HE is the one with the issue/pain/trauma/problem whatever and to go along with whatever their decision for HIM is. IMO Sam has now shown Dean that Dean can't count on him for support, he can't go to him with any issues he might be having with this - Sam will view it as Dean not trusting him somehow and it will upset Sam, so Dean is going to have to deal with whatever is going on, on his own. And once again the writers show that Sam is no leader and certainly not a natural one. ZennyKenny, LOL. Admittedly it's completely in character for Sam but still funny when you put it that way.

I agree with all this. I'm hoping you are right that Dean is just placating them. I really don't want him giving in to them just because little Sammy got upset and hit him. Because Dean isn't on any ledge. Jensen is a brilliant actor, we know that, I love that he still manages to come with new acting expressions even after all these years. It's literally the only reason I still watch. Don't want to miss those moments when he manages to pull something new and golden out of the manure the writers like to pretend is are storylines and plots. I think having Sam and Cas frame it as somehow giving up and suicidal just shows how little they know and respect Dean. So all their talk about his strength and what not a couple episodes ago wasn't true and was meaningless. They never think "hey maybe we should trust Dean's judgment" it's always "No we know better, Dean's unstable, can't handle it blah blah blah", always the way that paints Dean in the weakest light. If they truly believed he was strong, they wouldn't think this was giving up or suicidal, they'd know he was doing it to save the damn the world.(Yet Dean is strong, he's been containing a damn Archangel while as usually he has to worry about what they will do to screw things up, while they show him how much they don't actually trust him or think he's strong)

Yep, do as I say, not as I do boy! Sam has always been like John and he only wants Dean to do what he wants Dean to do how he wants Dean to do it and when he wants Dean to do it. I'm not surprised Sam cut Dean off when he started talking about John sending him away when he was mad at Dean or disappointed in him - Sam's never been very good at listening to Dean and that was one of those "no time for Dean's problems, this is about me" moments. And seriously "Dean isn't stupid, he's just too literal" what the hell? No Dean isn't too literal, Dean has proven himself time and again probably the most creative thinker of ALL of them. That is the writers saying Dean IS stupid, because that's exactly what they are claiming, that he's uncreative and too literal as a rule. Got I hate these writers.Funny how when Sam wants to throw himself into the cage with Lucifer(a plan with even less going for it than Dean's box, given it hinged on managing to gain control of Lucifer in the first place, something Dean currently has on Michael) and Dean's a terrible person, a horrible unsupportive brother for being against and literally EVERYONE including Death himself pushes him to agree with that plan, but Dean's current plan is stupid, suicidal and somehow they manage to make it all about how it'll affect poor Sam in the end. Dean's plan is NOT a bad plan, it's not a stupid plan, it's not giving up, it's not suicidal, it's not selfish either and I don't like the show framing it as once again being somehow about Dean trusting or not trusting Sam. It's not about him trusting Cas. When it has nothing to do with that. This should have been about Sam and Cas trusting and respecting Dean's decisions. They'd be raking him over the coals if the situations were reversed.

With regards to the first, that would have been interesting to see explored. That is precisely the point of that sort of characterization, to explore how far can they go, how much can they come back and how much will it change them. I have little doubt Dean could have still been Dean. The whole point is to show a protagonists STRENGTH in facing and dealing with something like that. As for Sam throwing himself in with Lucifer and Dean with Michael - well they would have been good solutions. They are good solutions, if other individuals don't them f*** them up by pulling them out. As for those left behind, well, people deal with tragedy all and the time and still manage to live over all fulfilling lives. Are Dean and/or Sam too weak to do that? Is that it? As for Dean and the bendy ex - he should never have been sent to her in the first place so if you get rid of that part of it, which was stupid(and I liked Lisa but it was still stupid) and part of Sara's plan to..."domesticate" Dean for some ridiculous reason, that would have been find.

I disagree, Sam knew what he was in for. Dean had already gone to Hell. Not the cage maybe but he certainly would have to figure it would include torture, etc. So Sam knew he was in for eternal torture. Sam wasn't supposed to "get out", so it was an eternity thing. I don't think the measure of "well how much worse" really matters, it was terrible even in a best case scenario and eventually leading the loss of self.

Don't know about that, all I know is if they make Dean "chicken out" because he's too scared, that's it. That said Dean has very good reason to believe Sam, Cas and Mary will go behind his back because they constantly have lied to him and gone behind his back specifically when he's asked them not to and generally caused something even worse. So if he isn't trusting them, good.

That's the thing, I don't really see why the "how"(supposedly "brutal") of it makes a difference. They are dead either way. These people were willing to kill(and rape) and got killed instead. Is there some method of killing them(for self-defense and defense of others) that would have somehow been "better" for Sam and Cas, that wouldn't have had them clutching their pearls? Dean did it quickly and efficiently, if bloodily. Was there some "less brutal" method that would have been more acceptable to Sam and Cas?

That's the scene I was talking about, I mean HELLLOOOOO Rapists? These were BEYOND not "nice" people, they clearly were ready to kill Dean, they were beating and kicking him in the head, under normal circumstanced you expect if a bunch of people do that, the person will eventually die from being kicked in the head repeatedly. That is what was in their minds. His life was threatened. Sam and Cas' reactions were so ridiculous and OTT under the circumstances, what the hell did they expect him to do, let himself get killed? They needed killing, they got killed. Now they aren't out there trying to rape any other teenagers or killing anyone who might try to help them.

What's good for the goose, etc, etc. That's what is said of Dean when Dean doesn't completely 100 percent all the time support anything and everything Sam and Cas do. It's his fault for what Sam did in Season 4, it's his fault for what Cas did in Season 6, etc, etc. And frankly IMO Sam and Cas had much much less of an excuse for not supporting Dean. They never supported him, they went immediately to "Dean's doing bad stuff" even though if anything THEY were doing as bad or worse. Dean kills a bunch of sickos who were going to kill HIM and it's "you had to do it right, right!!!!!!!!!!" Dean's losing it!!!!! ARGH!!!!!!. ETA: Regarding Cain and his woman, Dean should have already been ahead of the game, he didn't need to find "a woman", someone to support and believe in him, he already HAD Sam and Cas, whom he loves and who supposedly loved him, who unfortunately did not show him the support a woman who initially wouldn't even have known Cain except as what he was, showed Cain. Dean's whole time with the MoC barely qualified as "instability", a little bit more ruthlessness than usual but really he was handling himself and the Mark pretty darn well as I recall, considering what it was, except for Sam and Cas grasping their pearls every 2 seconds about how Dean was losing it, while not doing anything particularly worse than anyone else. Maybe if instead of grasping their pearls, making it clear to him they didn't believe in him or trust him and going behind his back to "save" him, they'd been a little more "you're strong, but if you need support I'm here and I won't think any worse of you for it(ie won't treat you like you're weak, losing it, etc,etc",) things would have been a little different. That's always how the show's been, it's such a double standard it goes back to season 2 even - Dean just killed a vampire in a particularly icky way "oh dear Dean's losing it, darkness, he's going to fall to the darkside, etc, etc". Meanwhile Sam or Cas can kill and torture people and it's just like "hey all in a day's work".