Affogato

But Madison traveled, too. Actively resistant. I think there is a story there, however we never see her being anything but mean to Veronica, or anyone really--except Logan, who she wanted to have sex with. It wasn't just about Veronica.

Thinking about lip gloss. I never saw Gossip Girls so no great affection built in. She seemed old, possessed like Veronica but we never see any weakness unless bitchiness is a weakness. I think you could probably create a back story where Veronica 'got' Carrie at some point in the past, thus setting up their animosity.

I just lost a message, so here is the short version. I loved the dye explosion, especially keith crowing over it. It shows something about their relationship, two dominant personalities and whatever else is happening they are always trying to get the better of the other. I think he treats her as an adult, and this is part of it but he isn't treating her like an equal. He is still the one with the upper hand, he thinks, and this season is him learning that he may not have the upper hand and he may not be able to control her and make her do what he wants when push comes to shove. (thinking this isn't like weird, it is an analogy for kids in highschool growing up and away from their parents). Second season he is trying to push the cat back into the cat carrier with both leather gloved hands. Spoiler, it doesn't work. Logan coming to Veronica. Wrapped around himself, his sweater in a feminine style, his body smaller than it is, retiring"I just want to know she's all right" is one of (what I think) of his common movie script lines, more mature that he is. He is totally a damsel in this scenario and that is why Veronica takes him on. She doesn't completely get it, when they see the movie of his mother falling she thinks that he is better off for knowing, she would want that kind of proof, but he is actually (subtly) reeling as he leaves the room. Logan usually says things that aren't true, things he's scripted, the physical gesture communicates the truth. Veronica really doesn't get Logan's desire to run from the truth, she runs towards it, even when it hurts. I think they learn to care for each other but I think the understanding comes hard for both of them. Veronica is right throughout this show, given the information she has, but when she learns she is wrong she shifts lanes without hesitation and without beating herself unduly and she makes it right. I think this defines her behavior through out the show. It also provides a filter to see some other behaviors that people like less, like some of the decisions she makes concerning her relationship with Logan. Susan Knight's reluctance to undergo the shame of being used by this scum of a teacher, unwillingness to endure the public shame, is not too dissimilar from Logan's unwillingness to make his father's abuse public. I think I see a parallel.

I'm not sure that you've got it right. My impression is that Veronica was friends with Lilly for a long time, that their friendship predates some of the clique stuff, so I think you are correct that she knew a lot of the '09ers but wasn't buddies with them. This is actually the point of the Carrie bathroom gossip scene, Veronica may have been accepted to her face because of Lilly but a lot of people resented her for being above her station. Not Meg, not everyone, as Meg points out in an earlier show, but a number of them. Also, note that Veronica made friends with Yolanda and brought her into the group to be friends with Lilly, not to the party to be friends with the 09ers. Veronica is the one who vets people for Lilly, not the other way around! Veronica apparently has relationships with a number of people, such as Wanda, who aren't '09ers. In the beginning of the show, although she is busy, she makes new friends, works to keep them, and keeps them as lifelong contacts. She isn't Lilly's lapdog, she does follow that order from Lilly and clearly immediately feels badly about it, you see that in the flashback, and when she thinks of Yolanda that is the first thing she notices. It is a guilty memory. Also, this is a tv show, so thinking do we every see Madison do anything not bitchy (and not in a good way?). Do we ever see Dick do anything that isn't hateful to Veronica, even in the movie? She develops relationships with Casey, clearly Carrie in this one, talks kindly to Susan, and generally gets along with the '09ers when they are receptive.

Think this is largely the story of Veronica working out life for herself with minimal help. Like one does. in the Kate Daniels(Kate is a jerksss alpha like Veronica, worth a read!) books by Ilona Andrews Kate says of Curran " that's the beast lord. Often wrong, but never in doubt. " Veronica is always certain of whatever she is certain of at the time. And then she moves on.

A thread to discuss Twin Peaks, for people who have just watched Season 3 and are having withdrawal symptoms, or just want to spend more time hanging out at the diner.

Just thinking that Finnegan's wake is not unlike The Return, it has (if I remember it from being a teenager) a dreamlike quality, clear when you are in it and rapidly fading when you wake up or get a snack or whatever. The first time I watched episodes of The Return I'd get totally invested in some part and then totally forget it when I was drawn into the next part of the show. I once was thrown off a christmas flight at o'hare and ended up in the Detroit bus station standing for hours waiting to be called for a bus to complete my trip. I didn't urinate for 18 hours for fear of losing my place in line and the only thing I had to read was Faulkner's novels. I've never felt like rereading him. Enjoy Pynchon, though. It doesn't even have to be obscuring the message, it can be teasing with the message, dancing around the messaging, making a mystery of the message.

If it is any help I think Audrey is now awake, or aware, depending on what state she was in before. Or was before the town was rewritten, so who knows, now? It may not be relevant :-

I think we do know what happened in most of the dropped storylines, it just takes a while to work through the stages of grief to acceptance. Audrey is ready to start healing, I enjoyed watching the guy sweep, Richard was what happens when evil is allowed access to the world, I guess, and James now has a friend. Cooper is a legend. Harry learns about the story from Frank. Lucy is better now. Becky and Stephen are dead and this may bring Bobby and Shelley back together. Also have they all reverted to how they would have been if none of this had happened? Is that the fourth season?

Think of it as a Chinese tv show when you dont speak Chinese.

I don't find it disconnected and random. I find that most of the time things that may seem random or simply played for an emotional reaction, say Lucy's inability to understand cell phones or what happens to Naido when she flies into space, turn out to connect later and have a larger meaning. I also think the work is intended to engage the viewer as a continuing work of art. i think I will get something out of a future viewing, which is true of very little tv. This is a valid way to approach art, although you may not like it, of course. And since Lynch is known for similar work The Return is as advertised. He made his name doing the work.

Extra Topic thread, yes.

I watched episode 18 again last night. I had read somewhere that Coop had switched with Dougie, so I watched that bit carefully but couldn't see any reason to think that had happened. Here's hoping that Dougie now can play catch and drive (or can learn)., I don't see any reason to connect him with the original Dougie doppleganger, but also he was made from a piece of coop after he had just woke up and he might not remember much of being 'our' Cooper and only the Dougie experience. That would be good, I think. Laura Dern was so good that it hurt to watch her, I paused several times anticipating the pain in her expression when she knew she was losing Cooper, but lose him she did. Liked the white horse on Carrie's mantlepiece. Tried to recognize the man she had shot, but couldn't place him. Loved her darting back and forth, I'll get my coat, I don't have food, not mentioning the dead man. If the whole thing is a loop that we could start at any time, and with many interchangeable parts, how odd a trip it would be. The end seemed like a reboot to me. Tomorrow it will seem like something different. Given her (their) outfits they seem like magician's assistants. Who is the magician?

Everyone one's mileage may differ but I really empathized with King Kong in the 2005 Peter Jackson version, partially because of the scene where he takes Naomi Watt's character and show her the bones of his parents and you realize how long he has been alone and why he is so childlike in his interactions, but she managed to sell that odd, complex, nonverbal relationship with a CGI character and I thought that was a remarkable performance. After that Dougie was a piece of cake! Nah, I think we needed this. Something that we can continue to experience as a living work of art.

I guess Candie is just a ditzy blonde :-)

Huh. I meant to see that movie and never made it, perhaps I will look around for it.

In the Sabrina Sutherland interview she said he lives in Hawaii, didn't want to film in washington, which is cold and aggravates his respiration issues, which she didn't specify.

In sync with what? thats pretty much what I thought. Theories are great, art is mysterious. :-)

I'm thinking Veronica and Keith's relationship doesn't bother them snd I'm neither squicked or bored. The co dependence? is an issue, maybe, but nothing to do with backrubs. Now Aaron trying to hold Logan's hand and Logan not daring to pull away is horrifying.

Yeah bit wouldn't it be reasonable if Logan had a new brush cut that she would say the same thing? I'm not getting this? Well Bone and his family, why does he insert them into white, snooty Neptune and then act surprised when they act white/snooty? Yeah, it was awkward and unrealistic and also weird.

I'd do it not necessarily committing to dream scenario

I agree with you. Liane, Celeste and Lynn are all people who aren't as strong as their men and have no real independent life outside of what their men give them. Yes Lynn had a job once. Veronica, meg, mac are not like this in different ways. In fact I think that Logan can't be with Veronica for any length of time until he stops trying to put her on his mothers pedestal, where she'll be safe (because he couldn't protect mom, this time he'll get it right.) she tries but really, the pedestal is not for her all im saying is Veronica at this time is trying to replace her mother in the family structure to keep the family intact so that her mom can be plugged back in when she returns. But it isn't enough for her. Keith was probably ok with liane having no life but her family and kind of oblivious to his family. It's biting him in some nonsexually embarrassing part of himself from this his we can intuit some things about their family dynamics.?

Darn. I was hoping 'artistic' meant something else.

My parents were pretty reserved and handled teaching me about sex badly but we could all have been at a play or concert watching people actually get naked and have sex in jello without any of us being embarrassed. Read out loud from Naked Lunch. Whatever. Because context, I guess. My family was not good at intimacy, but also not particularly prudish. I'm closer to your Dad's age, so not necessarily generational. Also Keith and Veronica are supposed to be Italian, traditionally a touchy-feely group. In a meta sense I see this as Keith as the Patriarchy, this is where Veronica is supposed to learn how to act towards men. Learning how to be a spouse, while she is struggling to be a partner (this comes out in the movie and books, too). I honestly, sorry, think a lot of this story is about Veronica's relationship with men, young tarot fool that she is, thinking the best of everyone, moving forward off that cliff. When Mom leaves she takes over Mom's job and then, being who she is, starts to take over his job. He has some issues with this. She should stay safe in the societally prescribed role, go to school, get a good safe job. On a reality level it is creepy how she fills the wife role so perfectly, you can see the kind of woman Liane was in the way she acts and the way Keith responds to it.

I think Keith is interested in spending time with Veronica because he almost certainly didn't spend much time with her when he was working all the time and trying to process what he was going to do about his drunk wife (this is how Veronica deals with things, they really are the same person); then he lost his job and had to spend a lot of time away from home, and during that time something happened to Veronica and he doesn't know what it is, but he feels as if he should have been there for her. The interplay with Rebecca, he realizes he brushed Veronica off when he was called into the meeting and let her set the rules. He's trying to fix that, so he is trying to spend time with her. He pushes a little hard because at this point she is withdrawing a little more. Veronica and Keith know its a sexual phrase, the joke is that he pretends he doesn't, he's being an embarrassing dad person. Her confirming that it is cringe worthy is part of the interplay, it is a way of establishing that they are normal people Honestly giving a shoulder rub in a nonsexual context doesn't creep me out and the jokes don't either. Veronica is mostly using them to create distance at this point, later (say, in the movie) she is using them to create a closeness that may have escaped them. And he is, too. I'm honestly not sure but when we get to season three, when he is withdrawing from her so she will leave the nest, if he does do that kind of joking? It seems to me that both of their relationships are more formal. but wait and see.