Marsupial

I have followed this case obsessively from the start and nothing I've read or seen (and I've followed the Italian, American and UK coverage--yes, obsessive is the word, LOL) has ever mitigated my opinion that Amanda and Raffaelle are as guilty as OJ Simpson. Nobody's mind is going to change at this point, I realize that, but it's distressing how little good information has appeared in the U.S. media on this case. I feel like most Americans have been fed a steady diet of half-truths and misinformation, including this documentary, and again, I'm not sitting here as the Oracle of All Knowledge but I would like to point out some alternative sources because almost every piece of information that's come up here has been discredited. Take the attacks on Guilano Mignini, the Knox/Sollecito prosecutor. Knox's defenders love to bring up the "Monster of Florence" case, so here's an actual timeline of the events and facts--Mignini was acquitted of ALL charges and Preston and Spezi were found to have been illegally interfering in an investigation: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/mignini_and_giuttari_win_final_round_in_spurious_2010_conviction/ That web site is biased (it's firmly in the Amanda-guilty camp) but the facts are the facts. Mignini was fully acquitted and has been promoted. The American press also portrayed Italy's humane, defendant-friendly and rigorous justice system as a third-world nightmare, blamed police brutality foAmanda's false accusation of Lumumba (I have yet to hear a Knox supporter explain that one), and flat-out lied about how she and Raffaele were treated. Here's another site that is dedicated to collecting ALL of the evidence, in both Italian and English, on this case, probably the most comprehensive and straightforward gathering of the court documents (translated into English) and evidence: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Main_Page And yes, here's one that supports Amanda's innocence: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/ I don't see how anyone can look at the evidence and look past the biased U.S. media coverage (hint: almost 90% of it is untrue), and come away with anything other than the idea that Amanda is guilty. But then again, O.J. was acquitted too. I always draw parallels between the two cases because there are so many.

LOL I was not aware of this show, will have to catch it...that first one HOLY CRAP!!!

Wow, Darian, thanks for sharing that anecdote about Ketchum. He's a writer I used to read a lot and greatly admire, and it's nice to know he's a good guy as well. Oh, yes, that's a really good one. It's actually based on a true story also, believe it or not. Yes, sometimes life can be as bizarre as a Lifetime movie...I used to be a true crime fanatic and remember reading the real-life story of the characters. The movie was very faithful to the real events and Eric Roberts did a great job! Another excellent based-on-true-story Lifetime movie is "Seduced by Madness," it's an oldie but goodie about Diane Borchardt. It's very well made, above the usual Lifetime production values, and it stars Peter Coyote and Ann-Margret (I know, right?!)

I'm ambivalent. It's got a great cast; I adore Evan Rachel Wood in everything I've seen her in and this is no exception. Same for Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins. That said, I can see it going the same route that made me stop watching GOT, an overemphasis on sadistic and/or sexual violence at the expense of story, character and everything else. Same here. And as I said, being HBO and seeing the ongoing popularity of GOT, I predict that will only get worse. Besides, if I need a good androids-vs.-humans story I'll watch "Humans." I don't think I'll be back.

Completely agree, I like Toby and think he and Kate are great together.

I get all the criticisms of this show, and I don't necessarily disagree with some of them, but I have to say that I still love it, if anything, even more. I spent this episode captivated by every moment. Everyone's acting is terrific and all the storylines move and interest me. Enjoyed the new twist too, will there be one every episode? The moon necklace, to me, indicates that the first husband (sorry, still confused/unclear about everyone's names) died and Miguel made the move he'd been wanting to make for years. I like it, though. AND we get Cutie (Cootie?) the Cat!!! When will this wondrous kitty make an appearance? I want Cootie/Cutie to come live at the house and enjoy his bad ugly self. Cannot wait until next week.

I don't have a favorite either, maybe Blanche because she was always fully self-aware of her own failings and weaknesses, and so open and unfettered with her feelings. I loved that about her. But I love them all too, love Dorothy's sense of dignity and her deadpan humor, her interactions with Stan were always hilarious; liked Rose's love of animals and tender heart for marginalized people, and I thought her competitive streak was hilarious. Just love them all. I agree completely. I liked that the show let them all have their flaws, failings and mistakes as much as their better natures. The show was also quite consistent with these personality features. Being a today's 50ish woman, I agree LOL, but I always assumed they were in their 60s and up. Did they ever actually say on the show? My two closest friends and I are all single (one widowed, one divorced, one never married) and childless, and we always joke about how one day we're going to have to all live together in a TGG situation...and the thought makes us really happy!

I think Heather did get a bitch edit, probably because she refused to play along with the show and quit early. She doesn't come across as a warm, bubbly person but I don't think she comes across as a bitch either. And Derek, I like you but your wounded-baby act is starting to get old.

Agreed, Empress. Nick does not give a crap about Sonia and is probably just shocked, like most bullies are, that his victim stood up to him and continues to do so. Yes, she agreed to look at those stupid pictures--clearly under pressure from the experts--but she isn't moving back in and it's clear she's as "disgusted" with him as she says she is. Good. She should stick to her guns and stay far away from that asshole. Any shred of sympathy I had for Nick is gone, especially after the way he lied about their level of intimacy. "I don't kiss and tell." That's bullshit. I also didn't like Sonia going along with it like it was some sign of respect to her that he didn't "kiss and tell." Are you freaking serious? This is your WIFE, you don't need to defend her honor and pretend she's a virgin. You are married, dumbasses. Nick also lied about the fight, and about what exactly he said, making it all seem like he just made a normal comment in a normal marital argument and his crazy wife overreacted, that whole wide-eyed, "Gosh, I have no idea why she got so angry!" That particular tactic is a favorite of abusive bullies, and I'm starting to believe that that's just what Nick is. It goes along with his refusal to say anything nice to Sonia about her looks, personality, talents or anything else. Run, Sonia, run fast and far.

LOL that's an excellent point. It tipped me off because you used to be allowed to smoke in hospitals, which seems inconceivable to us now. But I'm old enough to remember people smoking in theatres, in hospitals, on trains, and everywhere really. My mother says before that, people used to smoke in grocery stores and clothing stores, which also seems mind-boggling to us.

Well, I'm all in. I loved it. I've been looking for a normal, emotionally moving drama that isn't a crime show or a fantasy or a show about crazy, brilliant people, just a normal drama, and this fits the bill. I didn't anticipate the twist ending, but I never do LOL. I didn't cry but I did get very moved in several scenes, and Gerald McRaney was a revelation. I knew the guy was a good actor but he was utterly great in his scene. I like the cast so far and the storyline. I hope it doesn't focus too much on the "being thirty-something" because I'll get bored with that, but it looks like they are going to develop some interesting storylines.

Good point. Or maybe she's talking about...someone else on the show? Derek? LOL it sounds more believable than her and Nick getting it on.

Damn. Good for Sonia. Nick is a prime grade asshole. Not because he isn't attracted to Sonia, that's not something he can help. But his immature, dishonest way of expressing it is something he can help. And he chose not to. I agree that Sonia has difficulty communicating what she wants and feels. I guess I empathize because she is EXACTLY how I was in relationships for many, many years -- unable to be forthright and assertive, trying very hard to communicate and using a lot of self-defensive, self-protective mechanisms, oh I see it al in her. And I agree that for those of us who have that problem, it's a big problem and it's up to us to fix it. That said, we all communicate better when we're with someone who is patient and willing to help draw us out. Nick is impatient and he doesn't give a flying rat's ass about Sonia or, apparently, anyone but himself. HE is equally bad a communicator, at least Sonia was trying. He never put forth the slightest effort. Nick, you're an asshole. I am SO GLAD Sonia walked out. Good for her. She may be soft and tremulous but she clearly has a lot of self-respect. Meanwhile, Lily and Tom demonstrated the "work" that you do in a relationship to make it work. It's not drudgery, as Nick seems to believe. It's going out of your way to do nice things for your partner, just because you're not selfish and you occasionally think about what will make the other person happy. And the person receiving that attention shows gratitude and appreciation for what you do, and expresses it. That's the "work" you do, Nick. You act like a caring adult, not a selfish child. Derek's mom: "She threw it all away!" LOL.

The next season will certainly be more interesting if they start to incorporate some of the settings and characters from the original. It doesn't have to be the same (obviously it won't be as it's veered too far already) but the show needs something to shake it up and keep it moving. It's getting a little stagnant. Responding to your spoiler with another.

Same here! I haven't been excited to see a new show since I can't remember when, so am very much looking forward to it. I hope it doesn't disappoint but right now I'm willing to give it a try.

Overall, this series is OK in my opinion, I keep watching out of curiosity to see what happens next, and because I'm not regularly watching anything else. I do like Alice Braga in the role, it's very different from the way Kate del Castillo played her, but both are excellent. BTW you can see a younger Kate in the sweet movie "Under the Same Moon," which also stars a young Eugenio Derbez and features a cameo by Los Tigres del Norte (who wrote the original song about the Queen of the South). I like the character of Camilla, and I think the actress is beautiful in what the French call a "jolie laide" way, but I think her acting is lousy. She never changes the timbre or intonation of her voice, she speaks in the same flat monotone, her face is totally expressionless. I've become very bored with her. The same goes for James, but that's mostly because the scriptwriters give him nothing to work with. Gadiot seems to be a fine, nuanced actor, and very goodlooking, but he gets no material at all. I agree with the poster above who said that Epifanio does not come across as very menacing. In the original, your first sight of the Epifano character sends a chill up your spine even though he's urbane and well dressed. The actor does a terrific job of conveying a quiet ruthlessness that you know you better not mess with. Putting a comment about Teresa's new friend/vs. that role in the original in a spoiler tag.

I admit that this episode left me a little confused, but maybe that's more because, as with so many American shows, I have a hard time deciphering what the characters are mumbling. At any rate, it's clear that the tide has indeed turned for Teresa and the new "Queen" has been born. I think we got a hint of that. In the episode with the cocaine-addicted lawyer who was arranging her and Brenda's passports, she says she doesn't know where she's going and he says, "I hear Spain is nice." GONG!!!

For those interested in the "true story" of the Queen of the South, I'm reposting this from an earlier thread: I do know the legend of "La Reina del Sur" predates both the book and the series. "La Reina del Sur" was originally a song, a so-called narcocorrida (drug dealers' ballad) that was recorded by Los Tigres del Norte in 2002. The song, and the book, are both believed to be inspired by a real-life woman trafficker named Sandra Avila Beltran, who went by the nickname "Queen of the Pacific." Los Tigres wrote another corrida for Beltran called "La Reina de Reinas" (The Queen of Queens). The story told in the lyrics of "La Reina del Sur" is an almost perfect recitation of the story told in the telenovela and, from what I gather, the book. Here's an article from the Guardian about Beltran: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/06/mexico

iI have never understood why the original was not released with English subtitles on DVD. It did air with subtitled on the Mun2 channel but apparently the only place that's available now is Netflix. I'm baffled that the producers wouldn't want to further the reach of such a successful show. The original was about 63 episodes. Note that most telenovelas don't have "seasons" as we understand them, they run a story from beginning to end, usually several nights in succession. They tell one story from beginning to end, similar to American miniseries except with a lot more episodes. There have been a few popular ones that came back for a second or even third run, but that is not the norm.

Rapunzel, I stand corrected. So I guess there is truth in how they depicted that crossing. Interesting! I'm always amazed at how well the Brits can do American accents of all kinds. Has he been in other things? He's very goodlooking, and he looks like he could easily be Latino (the name Gadiot is French, I think?). Rapunzel, responding to your spoiler in a spoiler.

Another Lifetime fanatic here! I watched "Girl in the Box" and the real-life follow up show with the victim, Colleen Stan. I read a true-crime book about this case about 20 years ago and it really haunted me for a long time. The horror writer Jack Ketchum wrote a novel (""Right to Life") based on the central plot of what happened to Colleen and it's a remarkably sensitive treatment of the story. I know it's late in the thread but I just want to chime in that "Spirit of Christmas" is one of the best Lifetime and/or Xmas movies ever!! Thanks to the poster who provided details on the actual filming location, it's nice to know that inn is "real"!

Agree, Arwen Evenstar!! I am obsessed with Mafia movies as well, and have probably watched ALL of the Godfather movies 100 times, as well as The Spranos, The Departed (Irish mafia), and so on. Mr. Marsupial loves the narco shows but I find them too horrifyingly violent. Those drug cartels make the mafia look like a bunch of schoolchildren. Not that I care that much, but why did Teresa ask for only half the amount she and Brenda had agreed to? Was she afraid to ask for more? If the information is so important that a ruthless drug trafficker would pay $250,000 for it, why not ask for a lot more? Why risk your life for so little, comparatively speaking? But what do I know... And I guess Brenda is already dead, or going to be soon? I like that actress and remember her from Six Feet Under and I liked the character of Brenda. But I guess they can't figure out what to do with her so they will just kill her off. Yes, you do have to wonder how someone so clueless becomes "the Queen" in the end. And I love the insta-tunnel between the two countries, good Lord, where did they get that idea? The reality of how illegal immigrants travel between the two countries is actually quite grim and brutal, if there is an easy-access tunnel like that I'm sure they would love to know about it.

As I posted in another thread, I have only been able enjoy this show because it is so far from the original that it's become just an entirely different show. Aside from thname similarities and the all-important notebook, there is no resemblance whatsoever. So I simply approach it as an entirely different story. That said, I am really getting impatient with the slow pace of this one, and the unrelenting grimness. The original had a fast-moving plot, moments of humor and beauty and lightness, gorgeous settings (it was filmed on location in 3-4 countries),, gorgeous people (especially lots of eye candy for the ladies), and many more secondary characters who were really interesting and engaging. This show doesn't have any of that, and frankly, it is not compensating for those lacks in any substantial way. Someone said the USA series had a bigger budget? I find that hard to believe as the original telenovela was the second costliest telenovela ever produced, I think the budget was around $10 million. I can't see where USA is spending the money! Also, there were times in the original when I felt my credulity had to stretch to buy something, but never to the extent this show has asked me to. This episode being a prime example. It's making me miss the original more and more. Agree 100% with what you said in the spoiler, Rapunzel.

I'm curious about this too, I have not read the book so I don't know which one resembles it more. But based on the description of the book I read, it sounds like it's much closer to the Spanish-language version. I do know the legend of "La Reina del Sur" predates both the book and the series. "La Reina del Sur" was originally a song, a so-called narcocorrida (drug dealers' ballad) that was recorded by Los Tigres del Norte in 2002. The song, and the book, are both believed to be inspired by a real-life woman trafficker named Sandra Avila Beltran, who went by the nickname "Queen of the Pacific." Los Tigres wrote another corrida for Beltran called "La Reina de Reinas" (The Queen of Queens). The story told in the lyrics of "La Reina del Sur" is an almost perfect recitation of the story told in the telenovela and, from what I gather, the book. Here's an article from the Guardian about Beltran: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/06/mexico

That's an interesting observation. I wonder if they will show some of that in flashbacks. One of the things that the Kim-James relationship points out is how tenuous any romantic relationship would be with somebody in that line of work. It's like the modern-day version of the gangster's moll. There was another very popular telenovela, Las Munecas de la Mafia, that was all about the wives and mistresses of big-time drug dealers. It painted a very ugly picture of those relationships, showing them as being devoid of real caring, with women who were exploited and treated as disposable. For the women, there was money and excitement involved, but no status or respect whatsoever unless you were a wife. In the original Reina, Guero and Teresa were married but I can't recall if they were in the USA one.