Churchhoney

When you got the one spouse (and boyfriend, suitor, partner, anything) you've had only and entirely through your parents' intervention, I wonder what that does to your future hopes. I doubt that Anna has any feeling at all that she could go out and find a new spouse(boyfriendsuitorpartnerwhatever) on her own. ... And I'm sure she figures that if she dumps the one that her parents got her, her parents would not now help her get a second. And that probably nobody else in Gothardland would put themselves or their son forward for her if she dumps the one that two Gothard families came together to present her with .... So I expect that in her mind, if she dumps Josh she's looking at a future of single motherhood of four children she's grown up intending to homeschool...with Duggar parents' money withdrawn (and who knows about Florida trailer money?). That likely seems like not just a bleak but an impossible prospect, I'd think. And maybe worse since she was beginning to develop some champagne tastes in DC, it seems. I have a hard time seeing how she could really conceive of a future -- and especially a future marriage -- that she goes out and gets for herself at this point, especially since she seems to have a pretty limited brain and imagination. She's another one who's well and truly trapped by the cult upbringing, I expect.

Well, it's filled up about 10 seasons so far, right?

Joy did learn the meaning of the word "dangerous" from JIm Bob and Michelle, though. And for them "dangerous" includes looking at a woman in a miniskirt, knowing the tenets of a different religion, going to the supermarket by yourself, a woman having a job -- any job, us, etc. ..... So maybe her statements about danger need to be looked at from that perspective.

Maybe. But as I understand it, that would take getting virtually an entire second bachelor's degree for Derick --- since I gather he has no Bible or theology studies at all in his first degree -- and maybe a couple of years worth of college study for Jill, but not really at the freshman general-ed or associate's degree level -- at more like a college electives level. (and Jill would certainly have to do a fair amount of studying before she could even start the courses she needs.) Even if they were trying to do that now, it'd take years to accomplish. And even with those basic credentials that would/will take years to get, they'd still be in competition with others who have graduate degrees and so on. And all those people are competing for support from the IMB, which has not been doing brilliantly moneywise of late. I think many (many) more people than just the Dullards would opt to sign up with S.O.S. as temps, if they got the chance, either instead of going that long route or until they got that long route accomplished. Becoming an official missionary with the support of a major denomination is a lot easier said than done, especially with an organization that requires both members of the couple to qualify academically.

There's a reason Cinderella is a fairy tale. I think that at her age there's little hope of Jana getting out at all. Largely because, as others have mentioned, she has no reason to hope that she could succeed in the "outside world" (because she's been prevented from learning anything that might tell her that she could -- which is tragic, since she's obviously competent and conscientious enough to do just fine) and because she's passed a lot of developmental stages -- without developing -- that will never come again. .... Some upheaval could get her out in a physical sense. And that would be great. Nevertheless, even if that happens, she'll live a constrained life in many ways, most likely. In real life Cinderellas tend to be so warped that they keep themselves from going to the ball, even when they don't live at the stepmother's house any longer. Still good to be away from the wickeds. But the wickeds' wicked constraining messages have been carefully implanted deep inside Cinderella's brain, and the brain takes over the task of constraining Cindy, right where the wickeds left off. Very unlikely that Jana will ever experience anything wild and free, unfortunately.

Why? I guess they figured no one would tune in if they teased it with "Jill and Jessa Duggar speak out about childbirth and having husbands who have no jobs but are really really self righteous."

Yeah, I know a lot of people feel that way. I don't know why I don't. For some reason, even as a massive nearly lifelong atheist, it really doesn't bother me at all. Maybe it's my political side. I'm used to people fervently proselytizing about all sorts of ideas and I support one's right to do that, so I guess I don't find religious ideas any different. (The religious proselytizers might not like that fact. : -) ) Or any advice from Amy.

Well, it's definitely not the first time it's been speculated. (I think I may have speculated it myself in the past.) And while JIm Bob is stupid in every way that matters I expect he's really smart in the "playing all the angles to get money and/or get my way? sense. Plus, he has playing-the-angles lawyers and pr people. So I do think it's possible. The thing is, I don't think it would be necessary, since the Duggars got better ratings than the rest of the TLC lineup, so they were going to want them back in whatever way they could get them and get away with it. So I don't think there really would have been a need to blackmail, although I can definitely see JB -- possibly with advice -- doing it, if it had been necessary.

They had a very modest price and delivery fee. And it was good mulch. lol

I think he means that the Duggars and the Boo Boos are types of families that mainly live in the flyover states, not in New York or LA -- in that they're country folk, fundamentalist Christian, not necessarily interested in college education, etc. -- but we just got unlucky in accidentally picking two such families who also had major child-molestation problems lurking about. I don't actually think he's saying that non-New Yorkers tolerate sexual deviancy. He's just inarticulate in an unfortunate way. So it is a kind of insulting statement, but not nearly as insulting as it sounds at first..... And I have to say that I expect he does know where his ratings come from. And probably not that many people in LA are Duggar leghumpers. Arkansas has one brand of dumb fantasy and LA has another.

Considering the colors and splotches and smudgy-looking places I see all over Jessa's throat and defrauding clavicle, her ankle and pretty much Bin's whole face, I think it's likely that those are strange camera shadows on her feet. Just sayin.

"Justin's Garage. I Can Save Your Broken Car. And You, Too!"

And for Jim Bob and Michelle, I'd make the subtraction larger too. A lot larger, actually.

Yeah, see I don't think that was really about work. I think it was about Jill not feeling whole without having another person -- and her mate, in particular -- sewn to her side 24 hours a day. That's pretty much what she's been taught about marriage and family. And taught subliminally as well as consciously. They're all together. All the time. And I know for a fact that growing up that way makes people see it as so natural that they don't even think twice about basically expecting it and demanding it. It's a very strong habit when you have it, so strong that you don't even realize it's a habit or that it's different from what anyone else does. I don't think she understands that most people have to work to earn a living, because Jim Bob has seemed not to. But I don't know that she's truly allergic to work. She worked -- in her fashion -- at her midwife credential, and she has gone on helping out with the kids. I think that growing up TLC (and Duggar grifter) has deluded her into thinking that money's easier to come by than it is.

You know, I'm just not sure of that. I really think it's probably one of their top two -- but I suspect that bringing tons of people to Christ in their boneheaded, innocent, childish way is probably in a tie with money. I think Jill really does feel "called" to be a midwife and a missionary and Derick to be a missionary. The fact that they'll probably not be good at either of those things or do them in ways any of us will approve of just reflects their general dimness and (unfortunately probably eternal) lack of meaningful experience, I think. And I would bet that they truly believe that the money they ask for will come from people who believe in conversion missions and that these people will get two dedicated conversion missionaries when they pay for Jill and Derick to go to Central America. Or become, you know, domestic missionaries when they come back to Arkansas to join the other Arkan-dashians (read this somewhere on here the other day and love it.). Jim Bob and Michelle -- yeah, money is their only motivation. Well, that and having total control over everybody who comes within a mile of them. But I just don't see the evidence that these two are wholly mercenary. I think they have a lot of "innocent dumbhead" in them as well.

I don't know. Considering the behavior of his parents, I wonder whether there might be a strong genetic component. And then there's that lifelong belief system. If it's good, careful now! Don't take credit. Give all the credit to Jesus! And if it's bad.... Satan did it! Or your enemies who are in league with Satan! This isn't the ordinary almost-30-year-old we're talking about.

Exactly. I never have any idea what the glasses trends are but I end up with trendy glasses every time because that's what they have. I'm not sure you can easily buy non-trendy glasses -- not without making a big effort, at least. Plus, I think the Duggar girls do walk the mall and such to some extent. Even the bargain stores have fashion ads in them. Just don't post that on your sign. I unknowingly bought mulch from a fundie mulch store this spring and, to my surprise, got quite a large amount of telling of the gospel while the truck was dumping the stuff in the driveway, a tract, and some bible verses on the bill. I didn't mind, but I can imagine that some people would. lol.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that all these people are "converter spies." Great phrase! (Actually, though, I think I'd much rather have the ones who are internet contacts than the ones who follow me down the street or around the office or campus jawing at me about Jesus -- and I expec tthat Derick and Jill are much more the follow-on-the-street sorts.) The thing is, though, at least some major churches support this strongly today -- And many more did in the past. And they -- and not just jill and Derick -- think it is not just just a worthy purpose in life but one of the very worthiest. If you truly think that both the world as a whole and the potential converts in particular will be not only helped but saved for all eternity by your jawing efforts -- and only by your jawing efforts, that literally nothing else can save them -- then you do believe that the jawing is extremely and uniquely valuable. (and worth lying for and seeking false "creative access" for) It kind of drives me nuts that everybody seems to think this point of view is unique to Jill and Derick when it's clear that you have major church organizations believing the exact same thing. The Methodist missionary board considers tourists jawing about Jesus as missionaries who are integral to carrying out the Great Commission! So if we're going to blame Jill and Derick for doing something very jerky, I think we have to blame a lot of other people for doing the same thing. And, honestly, I'm not really inclined to blame either the Dullards or the churches. I don't share their beliefs a bit. But if I did believe what they do, then I think the logical conclusion would be that I should greatly support people who go around the world and try to jaw people into having the right beliefs. And I don't even have any real grounds for thinking that Jill and Derick would do this stuff in a dumber or griftier way than the random tourists, students, business-people-abroad and internet contacts that the Methodists are counting on to carry out the Great Commission!

Well, but look at what the Methodist mission board says about "creative access" (and the Baptist board says similar things, but I'm too lazy to find it right now.) According to what they write below (which I quoted and gave the cite for above...too lazy to bring the cite down, too), the "Great Commission" is not "go and help poor people out of their poverty" or even "go and help poor people out of their poverty and in so doing convert them." It's clearly "go and help people who are poor in spirit because they don't have the gospel or don't have the right gospel -- give [our interpretation of] the Good News to everybody who doesn't have it." And, clearly, given the list of people the Methodist mission board describes here as doing this -- as well as what it indicates they'll be doing -- this in no way demands offering charity or economic development or whatever. It's very unlikely that any of the "creatively accessing" half-missionaries they mention below will be helping anybody out of poverty or whatever -- (particularly "internet contacts" -- uh, people you meet on forums?) They're there to give the Good News, period. So I think there's huge precedent for what the Dullards think they're doing in Latin America: "While fulfilling the Great Commission in those countries can be challenging, it is not impossible. Closed to missionaries does not mean closed to the gospel. That's where the use of the phrase "creative access" comes in. Because the Good News spreads most easily through relationships, there are opportunities for evangelism in even the most difficult of circumstances. Relationships in which the gospel can be shared can be developed by: Students from those countries who go to study in another country Christian business people whose job has taken them to those countries Teachers whose particular specialty is in demand in those countries Christian students who go to those countries to study Tourists who are able to develop contacts during brief trips to those countries Internet contacts' Exactly. I glanced at a few sites about Guatemalan tourism and Guatemalan expat living. And it appears that getting at least the first few visa extensions is really easy. You just fill out the right forms, go to the right office, and make a one-day trip over the border to Mexico or whatever, and you've got another 90 days. Clearly the expats and the voluntourists and missioncationers are economy boosters. And I expect that, despite our outrage about their trying to convert Catholics, I expect that countries with a big Christian tradition (even if it's Catholic) aren't going to see them nearly as the kind of potential threat to culture and sovereignty that a mainly Islamic or Hindu or Buddhist nation understandably will.

I don't know. How smart do you have to be to hear something, overhear something, mis-hear something, or imagine something and call up the reporter you have on speed-dial to tell them? And how smart do you have to be to put reporters on your speed-dial when you're hoping like heck that you can tempt one of them to actually write about you again someday? Amy's famished for more fame, and reporters are always famished for tips. I'd say dumb, largely scrupleless Amy and dumb, largely scrupleless tab 'reporters" are probably a marriage made in speed-dial heaven.

Yeah, but this is the kind of mission that's pure conversion. It's all -- or mainly -- about talking up Christ. They're talking about pastor-types and fervent lay Christians who like to talk about their faith and draw people in. It is about passing out tracts and bibles. There are clearly two different visions of missionary work going on, and the stuff I was quoting from the Baptist and Methodist missionary boards was clearly describing a conversion mission, not a health-oriented or education-oriented mission or whatever. In Nepal, it's likely that Derick was mainly supporting himself, although he probably got some pay from the local trekking company he seemed to be working for at least part time (and that IMB most likely helped him hook up with) and he may have gotten a few missionarying expenses (like tracts or bibles) or something reimbursed by the IMB (or not.) He was working, probably not spending much in a fairly low-cost country and may also have had money from his father's death benefits or something as well. He doesn't come from a poor family, either. In Central America, it seems that they worked at least some of the time for that S.O.S. missioncation/voluntourism group that seems to be allied with Gothard. So they probably got some salary there -- and may still even be doing some things for that company and drawing some wages. And while I don't know where S.O.S. gets all its money, I assume that a lot of it comes from the many people who book missioncations with them. And then they asked for "love offerings" from their many fans, people at Cross Church, and, I'm sure, friends and neighbors and so on. So they have some cash there -- possibly pretty much of it. I'm sure they had TLC money left over, since they would have been getting paid on their own as soon as Jill got married and moved out, and they don't seem to have champagne tastes. And then as soon as a contract was signed for the TLC specials, there was more money there. .... That's a fair number of income streams, especially if you can fall back on Jim Bob and, probably, Derick's well-employed family too, if you run into trouble, I think.

Well, I guess it just proves that Jim Bob and MIchelle are godlier than anybody. .... Also dumber, lazier and bigger control freaks.

I so hope that this last isn't true. That they are so clueless and silly and disengaged that this real consequence of what they say may not even occur to them. .... And, honestly, they're so stupid, so uneducated, so apparently genetically devoid of empathy and so well trained to feel no strong emotions or engage in any acts of imagination that I think there's a chance this is the case.

I assume he has social media because he's trying to get a music career?

Well, it's nice to see them smiling. I wonder whether they can smile in a relaxed way like that when they're posting all the fire and brimstone stuff. Seems incongruous to me, but maybe it's so much second nature to them that they can.