Churchhoney

Good question. Maybe when the woman is the actual fruit of Jim Bob's loins and the supposed "headship" is somebody else's offspring, a Duggar spawn-princess's status as a clearly superior being trumps the males-are-headships rule. I can see it going either way.

Well, Homeland's a series, and it got 1.8 million viewers on Sunday. Maybe that was a repeat or something; I don't know. Nevertheless, scripted series are more expensive to produce. And TLC seems to have done well with Duggar reruns in the past, so that'd be more money. This may just be my fear-of-Duggar-continuance talking, but I think they may pull this off. Sickening, if so.

Well, there is a sucker born every minute.

Second part of the "peer dependence" nonsense. Did/do Jim Bob and Michelle act just like this? Oh, yeah, I think they do: '“The first step in overcoming peer dependency is determining whether or not a child is peer dependent. The second is accurately assessing the depth of the problem and then taking the proper steps. One approach a parent might take in order to find out if a son or daughter is peer dependent is to tell your child that all outside activities with peers will be suspended for one week. Will your child willingly and joyfully go along with that plan, or will they whine and cry, manipulate and control, and completely make your life miserable until they can do things with their friends? ….ask them, ‘Who has your heart? Who would you say in in control of your life?’ ” 'So lemme get this straight: tell a normal kid that they have to cease and desist all the normal stuff they do outside the home (keep in mind we’re talking about homeschoolers who rely on their parents to have an outside social life), then when they freak out like normal kids, give them a triumphant “AHA! You are peer dependent. We must fix this.” Um, no, actually, they’re just normal human beings who like the company of other human beings. How would this mother handle it if someone told her “You won’t be allowed out of your house or to see anyone else but your kids for a week. And tell me now, who has your heart”? Sounds abusive and manipulative, right? Oh, but not when it’s directed at kids. Kids can be treated as non-humans because they’re on the bottom of the Godly hierarchy. Suddenly “Who has your heart?” sounds uber creepy to me. All this emphasis on who owns whom.' http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/12/15/the-battle-of-peer-dependency-part-2/

I don't know. They do have Anna left, of course. But other than that it kind of seems as if they've played out the Duggar-reactions-to-Josh's-life stuff. So what do they have left besides Derick and Jill go off to be fakish sort of missionaries and Bin and Jessa post sort of Calvinistic claptrap on social media and pretend that no one else has ever been pregnant before? How appetizing are those going to be? I'm not so sure. How do you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

From the stuff I gather they said on this show, seems to me as if JB and M must have really drummed that "Josh is the oldest son and thus the unquestioned leader of this family" thing hard into all the kids. Not only do you have somebody JD's age talking about his slightly older brothers as an apparently lifelong role model, but unless this was misreported by somebody, Joy talked about Josh being her role model, too? I have a very hard time seeing a kid choosing her molester as her role model without strenuous coaching on the part of some insane parents, especially when she had seven other older siblings to choose from. Did Joy actually say this? Because I'm hoping she didn't and that somebody just misheard, really. Back when Izzy was born (or in the offing -- can't remember), Derick made some sort of big pronouncement about how great it was that they were having a boy because he was going to be the leader of the family, yadda yadda. .... And with all this "role model" stuff going on about Josh, I'm thinking now that he must have gotten that straight from Jill and that it was a very overt Duggar family principle heavily ingrained in all the kids......I find that a little odd anyway, given the sheer size of that family. Couldn't some of the other older kids also function as role models? Does everybody have to have the same one? -- and I guess the answer is "yes" when that one is the golden Josh. And it's also troubling, of course, since they seem clearly to have been drumming this into the kids for years after the whole molestation thing happened.....Sure would go a way to explain both Josh's (to me) highly offensive arrogance (or at least the appearance of it) as a teenager and the level of pressure that was on him based on his position in the family, though.

I agree with what you're saying in part. But since they resolved the first issue largely by sweeping it under the rug, while they're certainly not doing that with this one, I still think there's a difference in the way they're treating them .... I just think that the molestation is such a touchy off-the-wall issue -- for anyone -- that people tend to go much more into denial about it than anyone does about adultery, which just isn't as insane a problem.

Yeah, but she's just pulling up the horror stories out of her ass. It's her own fear of loss of total control that's the issue. Kids do gravitate toward peers, of course, but they also continue to get influences from their families, and they aren't necessarily stupid enough to always buy the other kids' views over adults' views. And parents -- and teachers, and so on -- protect kids in other ways from totally following the peer crowd, if they're doing their jobs at all. I was raised by a nut like this, although without the theology, and all this sick Gothard-book-writing woman has really done is conjure up a bogeyman out of her own neurotic fear of not remaining the total home despot for life and tried to sell it as what always happens if you fail to lock your kids away from all influences and -- and this is a big one -- all enjoyment of society. She's internally warped as hell and is operating from her warped place, not from reason, just like every adult who isolates their children like this, and what she's preaching goes completely against nature.

It sure isn't normal, but I think it's pretty common among people with severe personality disorders raising kids. That one such mega-warped nutjob pulled a bunch of bogus theology out of her ass to justify it -- in terms of the end of days, no less -- and then Gothard packaged it up as a book and sold it as part of his homeschooling and family-life materials tells me all I need to know about Gothard and ATI, I must say. And it's hella damaging. Humans are meant to live in societies. And you are warped for life when you're determinedly deprived of numerous natural and vital stages of development in that way.

Maybe it's a Gothard thing. After all, old Bill pretty much set up his whole cult for the purpose of providing much younger girls for himself to fondle. And on his account, it was actually all for the girls' benefit, not his own. Meanwhile, he doesn't seem to have touched women of his own age at all. Ergo, the latter must be evil, while the former must be really kind of a virtue.... It's probably all there in the Wisdom Books somewhere.

I kind of think that "perfect" talk stems from a myth Jim Bob constructed about why there was public outrage at him and Michelle when the molestation story came out. Seems to me I heard it originating around that time in statements from Jill and Jessa. My guess is that it's a story that Jim Bob and Michele constructed and taught to the kids to deflect the idea that people were outraged at how JB and M had handled the molestation issue. Instead, Jim Bob got everybody in Duggarville (including himself) to believe that the public (plus the media) was stupidly outraged because the public believed that the Duggars had deemed themselves perfect and thus were hypocrites because they'd produced the flawed member, Josh. My theory is that they obviously couldn't have their kids noticing that the real root of public outrage was what many (most?) people considered the very wrong (evil, inappropriate, negligent, etc) handling of the Josh issue -- from beginning to end -- by JB and M. Because if the kids realized that that's why people were mad, they might actually start to wonder that themselves. And that could lead to the crumbling of Jim Bob's empire. So to keep the kids from arriving at this accurate interpretation of the public view, JB and M kept telling them this "The ungodly public and media are saying we claimed to be perfect and we never never did!" tale over and over again until the kids believed it, and believed it was the whole story. And of course their brainwashed offspring swallowed this whole. And, once again, the Duggar parents utterly escape accountability from their kids. .... Jim Bob has his kids hornswoggled. And if my experience is any indication, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they'll all be hornswoggled for good, or at least for some decades yet.

Exactly. Michelle and Jim Bob pretty much dehumanize everyone. Starting with their own children.The idea that they're on tv presented as a particularly virtuous, devout and loving family puts me in a state way beyond rage. What they are is uncivilized lunatics, completely in the grip of their own ids, in my opinion. Even leaving aside their political and civil-rights barbarities -- which are heinous -- if there were any true understanding among the public (and the fricking TLC executives) of what harms they've perpetrated on their own kids, they'd be off tv in a twinkle. But there's a helluva lot of denial going around about the psychological and political harms that id-driven egomaniacs who deem themselves devoted Christians can do. People don't want to look at it straight on because they prefer to believe the pleasant fairy tale.

Good piece on the whys and wherefores of the isolation imposed on children and young people by ATI, Vision Forum and some of the other homeschooling cults. Friendship among kids is reinterpreted as an uber-scary and evil thing called "peer dependency." Really hits the nail on the head about the control-freaky nature of many of the parents who bought into this and the very long-lasting effects it has on the kids. http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/12/14/the-battle-of-peer-dependency-part-1/ "You can either be a strong family and have your children’s hearts, or you can have friends.....She goes on (and on and on) dramatically about this “battle” and how peer dependency will cause children to fall away from God, will destroy the family unit, and ultimately the entire nation. The whole chapter reads like a letter of self-inflicted martyrdom by a mother who is whining about how hard she had to fight and what sacrifices she made to keep her family free from the diabolical threat of friends. I’m sure I don’t have to explain why this is utterly ridiculous. I wish I had the words to explain why this sounded so good to many of our parents. I mean, did the homeschooling cult attract control freaks or what?! It would be funny if it didn’t hit such a personal, raw place in my heart. If I didn’t have to explain what these teachings did to so many of us, how they broke us, how we still struggle with healthy peer relationships decades later. If we didn’t have to constantly fight to get people to believe that it really was that bad." Also includes a classic, Gothard word-twisting: 'So, what is “peer dependency”? The author explains: “Webster’s Dictionary defines peer as ‘an equal or member of the nobility’. Dependence is ‘to rely as for support, to place trust, or to be determined’. Therefore, on can define peer dependence as an equal or member of nobility that one can rely upon, places trust in, and will be determined to do so.” That’s one of the most epic splicing together of definitions that I’ve ever seen. But it’s also a popular method of finding meanings in scripture that Gothard himself uses. Given that this was written by an ATI mom and sold at a Basic Seminar, it’s reasonable to assume she used the same twisted methods of discovering what God has to say as Gothard does. Actually, Gothard’s teachings, catch-phrases, and strange word definitions are prolific throughout this book. Then we get into the weird hierarchy, “emotions are evil”, and “agreements/strongholds in your heart” teachings that are straight from Gothard: “When a young person is in a position that they have taken an equal, or someone they think highly of and are determined to trust and rely upon, a parent is in trouble. To place trust in a peer, one must make a choice with their will to believe in that peer. They come to an agreement within their heart that the one whom they trust is worthy of that trust….Throughout the decision process made by the young person, he has involved his mind, will, and emotions. He has processed the peer through his intellect, enjoyed and desired what he as seen, and has made a decision with his will to follow in order to become like his peer. As we continue to define the struggle, there is one more word that must be considered. Through Scripture, one can find the heart defined as the mind, will, and emotions of a person.” So let’s create a problem, then see the entire world through this problem, write some stuff that sounds a little like legit psychology to those who know nothing about psychology, and then write a book on how you overcame this salvation-threatening problem and saved the souls of your children. Mother as the martyr-savior. This is starting to sound all-too familiar. “Some may think that being peer dependent is not such a bad thing….however, Scripture is clear that it is a very big deal to God. In fact, if is God’s desire for the father to have his children’s hearts, because in the last days, if they don’t, He will smite the earth with a curse.”'

Speaking of marketing the older kids as spouses, it strikes me that this show could have put a real crimp in any plan like that. I didn't watch it, but there seems to be general agreement that Derick looks and acts like he's been run over by a bus since his Duggar wedding and even that the thrill seems to be gone from Ben and Jessa's barely year-old marriage. And of course we got a huge dose of what happened to Anna. ..... Hard to think that people won't see a pattern there and shy away from the marriageable Duggs even more.

Did I read somewhere that Joy was among those who said something about dropping Josh as their role model when the Ashley Madison stuff came out? Because if she ever had as her role model Chester the Molester.... Words fail me. .... And of course that would have been directed by JB and M. And it's not like she didn't have seven other older brothers and sisters she could have had as a role model. I'm hoping that she didn't say this and I read a false report. Because if she did, as Aja mentioned the other day There are not enough WTFs in the physical universe.... Now that she and Jinger don't seem all that comfortable with each other either, I wonder whether there's anyone with whom Jessa has a non-awkward-and-stilted conversation. I'm thinking not. And that's very sad. As it is for any of the rest of the kids who are in such a boat.

Speaking for only for myself, I think the fact that this show whitewashes for viewers, including impressionable kids, an evil philosophy of life that's deeply damaging to people, especially girls, is a very good reason to fight the show and fight it hard. I firmly believe that Jim Bob's and Michelle's practices constitute extreme psychological child abuse, and the idea that people sit and watch it -- and show it to their children -- because TLC and the Duggar parents pretend that it's all sweet and not only harmless but positive is a crime against society. And since I grew up in a similar situation, I feel that I have excellent evidence that, yes, what the Duggars do is extreme child abuse and for a tv network -- and advertisers -- to treat it as if it's adorable is an evil thing and must be stopped. Obviously, MMV. EML: to get rid of the double post that I wasn't able to get rid of before.

Maybe it's because he's an in-law. This strikes me as being one of those families in which people who marry in aren't granted full human status (no matter how much of their souls they throw away to become part of this horrible clan...) These are the stupidest and most ignorant people ever. Just sayin. Maybe Jill's midwife "graduation"?

Sounds good. Although I'm sure advertisers are just holding out to see the ratings. Yeeps. Thanks. ... Don't skimp on your wine pouring, though!

Who's been advertising?

No, it's the Oklahoma version. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_Pete_%28Oklahoma_State_University%29 With Izzy and Spurgy growing up surrounded by Oklahoma and Arkansas Uni paraphernalia, respectively, pretty much non-stop, it's hard to see how their parents are going to discourage them from wanting to attend regular colleges.

Well, but it's just a photo snapped by a very rudimentary camera in extremely bright sunshine. It's not going to give nuances of shadow or true colors or anything. It's going to look harsh and rough because of the nature of the photo. I actually think Jill looks pretty good there. I like it better when she braids the hair and doesn't have it all hanging down around her face. And, to me, that's one of her prettier angles and smiles.

Yes, you're certainly right about that. Anna's been programmed to make her terrible decisions. The parents of this whole generation have done really terrible -- and terribly long lasting -- things to their kids. It's unforgivable, really.

I think it's actually worse than that, too. Seems to me it's "The Duggars define 'slow learners because their massive arrogance prevents them from ever imagining they could be wrong.'" If they were just clueless, it wouldn't bother me so much. Of course, it may take him a bit longer, since he probably won't have much cash to buy a partner. He'll have to find someone who's far enough out of her mind to do it willingly. ... Or at least semi-willingly.

And even if they somehow got on a jury, I can't imagine them doing anything but asking really stupid questions. They are not bright. Nor do they pay attention to anything. They'd just be a horrible worthless annoyance to everybody else on the panel.

Just goes to show that the name of their show should really be: "Idiots in Denial."