Churchhoney

Ah, a creature of reason, I see. lol .............. I know exactly what you're saying and it's what I'm inclined to think, too. But, you know, faith goes by entirely different rules. It's believing what you can't see. It's a wager, not a conclusion for which evidence is available. It's believing something that reason is incapable of reaching. By definition, it can't be proven. ... I personally believe that faith isn't real, doesn't allow us to grasp truth. I'm a creature of reason, too. But some people whose brains I greatly respect have told me the opposite -- I can't dismiss Pascal out of hand, for example, and there are many others. Among the things that I think are just fig newtons of the imagination, faith is one that I think no can actually prove is merely imaginary. We might marshal a ton of evidence that makes us very very strongly suspect that, but I doubt that anybody's going to find the final nail to seal faith's coffin. Universe is too complex for that, I expect.

The thing is, though, someone who is about to cross the bridge that I know is broken is by definition not seeing it as a broken bridge. If I believe that I know it's broken only because of my right relationship with God -- and that's what their faith clearly teaches -- then somebody's protestations that it's not broken or that they know another way around prove only that that person is even more in need of having his or her eyes opened by accepting the true faith. If I believe what they believe, then part of that is believing that other people have the wool pulled over their eyes by Satan and that only by accepting what I am offering will they see that bridge in its true state at all. If somebody's being blinded and suffering hallucinations because of their lack of true faith, then, even as the committed atheist that I am, I can't really call it arrogant for someone to try to pull that person back from the brink. I guess the part I see as arrogant is the refusal to look very carefully at other accounts of the world in an attempt to make absolutely sure that they are right, and such refusal does seem really common. I guess this is why I'm not bothered at all by people proselytizing me if they're willing to actually engage in a conversation with me and I get the sense that they are at least open to discussing their beliefs and remain seekers to some degree. And I've certainly met people like that and talked to them.... Now I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't get this feeling from many if any of the Duggars! Most of those I've heard talk about this stuff radiate a personal arrogance and overall dimness just in general that tells me they aren't seekers, just idiots. But I can't write off all proselytizers as arrogant. And since I've never been proselytized by a Duggar or by Derick, for example, I wouldn't swear to 100 percent of them being arrogant jerks, either. I'm curious about Derick's stance and methods. He seemed to be pretty positive toward people he knew in Nepal, for example, and I doubt that all or even most of the people he knew were Christians.

My bet is the Jesus umbrella plus the fact that they're homeschooled -- and so have fewer contacts with any system than they might have -- and, especially, that they've been a very long time on the road, repeatedly. When they're moving quickly from state to state, who's going to catch up with them or see for sure that they're their jurisdiction? Etc. .

Ha. Ha.

Well, I don't know how this works in general, but just about everybody I know who's converted to something has been looking for more than just a set of things that seem right and useful to believe in. Aside from people who converted because of a boyfriend or girlfriend, most have converted at some difficult point in their lives and -- I think -- were looking for human connection and a human group to belong to at least as much as they were looking for beliefs they resonated with. If that's widely true, then there's obviously lots of room for proselytizing to be successful, at least temporarily.

There's been a longstanding rumor, however, that Josh was courting or engaged or something to a girl when he was 14, possibly representing the family's first attempt to distract him with a more suitable (i.e., non-family) partner to stop his nighttime raids on his sisters' bunk beds. Who knows whether it's true, of course. But it's been widely cited in many places for years, and we do know that some long-bandied-about-but-often-disbelieved rumors about Josh have been true, so it does seem possible. Here's a 2015 report of it -- http://starmagazine.com/2015/06/03/josh-duggar-was-betrothed-to-marry-before-anna-arkansas-politician-father-covers-up-the-story/ "According to sources, Josh Duggar was ‘betrothed’ at 14 to the daughter of former Arkansas General Assemblyman Jim Holt. This commitment to marry was made during the same period of time back in 2002 to 2003, when Josh was at the height of his unconscionable behavior of molesting his younger sisters, among other girls. Reportedly, the Duggars and the Holts attended the same church —"

Because they're lazy, unimaginative, non-empathetic, ignorant, idiotic, hypocritical jerks? And yet they "deserve" to be paid to be on TeeVee and millions of people watch. That's one of the most baffling things in the world to me.

I don't watch this, but my guess would be that Jana's already seen 26 years of what the Lord has in store and she's not impressed with it. Which is probably especially difficult for her because I expect that she's a very strong believer, hoping in the Lord faithfully and getting years and years of Job's boils and pot shards in return. And she doesn't seem like a person who has any interested in sharing her confused feelings about her difficult life with the world either. Yet she has to do it -- for the family. Her life is in no way her own, it appears. Poor woman.

Plus, at one of these esteemed outlets (in the sewage world, where they belong, this is where the effluents emerge, right?) the "reporter" opines that what with the teevee show, the Duggar books and their blog, Jizm Bob must be approaching billionaire territory. So at least one of these "reporters" is not only an idiot but very very stoned. I'd bet on both "reporters" actually. I'm sure JB and M are fighting. But where else would either of them go to get their particular dysfunctions accommodated? I say bullshit. Would be funny, though.

Timothy, God wants you to RUN. Run like the wind.

Can you be defrauded by a bare uvula?

Horrible to need acting lessons when what you proclaim and imagine that you're doing is showing people your real life. Can they really not see that they falsify who and what they are all day every day? How the hell this can't be terribly damaging to you I can't imagine. And especially damaging to people who are already as fucked up as the Duggar kids. Sickening.

Really? Wow. Now I'm even more glad that I've never tried to watch reality-tv families. I can't get my mind around the idea of wanting to watch stupid people, and not finding them laughable and/or tragic. There's just something wrong with that. I don't even really get snark. Every time I get a little caught up in snark and then remember that these are real people raising real children it makes me feel nauseated.

Yeah, well, considering that he's never ever had any legitimate counseling or therapy for any of his problems but is supposed to be "cured" of them anyway; that he's now back in a marriage situation he never should have gotten into in the first place; that he's in his late 20s but doesn't have the skills or education to get a job that would either be satisfying to him or support him and his family; that he's once again living in an isolated and isolating world based on ideas that he almost certainly doesn't believe in but pretends to; that he's in his late 20s and completely under the thumb of his parents and dependent on them for everything; and that he's now got "pariah" tags hanging all over him, some deservedly and others not so much, it would be a literal miracle if he were "dealing well" with the horrible life that he, his parents and the Gothard cult have collaborated to create for him over the years.

Yeah, really scary. Terrifying, really, to think that things so contrary to all reason and fact and even to people's own self interest can have such a strong hold and prompt so many actions.

I think that's pretty much the whole Duggar schtick, isn't it?

Well, you're in luck because I don't think he said it'd happen every single time. Just that, if you followed all his rules, people would be so impressed with you that first-class upgrades would happen -- sort of when you least expected it. ... So you don't have to join. Thank your lucky stars!

Which I guess is why the people who actually join a group like this (such as JB), and who then involve their children through brainwashing, tend to be people who are insecure and fearful and also unrealistic enough to think that they can magically get some "umbrella of protection" against those facts. Gothard repeatedly promises that following his silly rules will actually protect you from the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to and even bring you tangible boons you wouldn't get otherwise (up to and including getting upgraded to first class on airlines without even asking, as another ex-Gothardite wrote at Homeschoolers Anonymous a while ago). It's a very infantile form of "religion," so it's not surprising that you can convince children of it, especially in households where the parents likely radiate fear of the unknown and so on all through the household so the kids are scared into thinking that they'll never be safe without these magical protections.

I love dogs, too, but their level of investment in the puppy makes me sad. "Life is an adventure for her," Sarah writes. Can't help but thinking that there's an unacknowledged thought behind that of life not being such an adventure for them. The puppy's on a leash and they are, too, but the puppy is an innocent domesticated baby animal who can still feel adventure, leash or not. But maybe the Maxwell daughters have a harder time doing that.They probably feel guilty about it.

This web post critical of ATI has a whole list of things allegedly from a Gothard manual (I expect they are, but I can't swear to it -- they have page numbers) and there's this on makeup -- dunno what else is in the passage that's briefly quoted. p.279 "Cosmetics should be used to enhance your facial appearance..." And there's also this --- pp.276ff This section tells us how we are to dress. Some of the information about modesty is very good, but too much emphasis is placed on appearances; e.g., "Wear special accents near your face." Then he says, "Men should note that facial hair tends to obscure the countenance." The whole post is quite an interesting read. http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/bill-gothards-ati-textbook-examined.html

Well, if the Duggars' family "mission" trips to CA were any indication, then I guess applying nail polish is equivalent to spreading the true Gospel.

I imagine you'd have to. Otherwise, you wouldn't know what impression your movements were putting across. There's a reason dance studios are usually lined with huge mirrors. However, science indicates that a certain level of advanced intelligence is necessary before animals even recognize themselves in a mirror. Are we sure Bin is up to it?

I notice that, unfortunately, in support of your argument you've just uttered a fact. As you know, in Duggarville, facts are the tools of the devil. Although, come to think of it, given what lame shoppers the Duggars are, there may still be a need to sew modesty panels.

Methinks that Jessa has seldom paid much actual attention to anything that she's doing.... Well, maybe makeup application, at times. ... I expect she paid very little attention to the unsought slate of tending chores she was assigned for kids she didn't care much about. How many people would, in her position? They weren't her kids, and she was not just a teen but a child through much of it. She may not have been informed that her childhood was being eaten by chores she shouldn't have been doing, but I'm sure she felt that inside, however obscurely. And she had no teacher or model, except for MessedUpChelle, who rode on parade floats with babies stuck under her Breast Friend. .... Plus, I don't get the sense that Jessa does much of anything even now with thought and attention or really tries to learn much of anything. All that childcare experience probably went by in a complete blur. Spurge may be almost a brand new thing to her.

So in other words you'd like to watch a show about people who aren't the Duggars and aren't anything like the Duggars!