Churchhoney

Where I start to really get confused is on the question of whether this holds in a trial where you're testifying only about the behavior of the defendant and not at all about your own behavior.... I mean, if they ask him about whether Josh did or didn't do something -- in a situation in which Josh acted alone -- seems like the question could be crafted in a way that couldn't possibly be answered in a way that would coerce JB into implicating himself in some crime....and maybe fairly easily crafted in that way.....Or maybe not...... And I assume the judge can tell you whether you have to answer or not......

But wait! Didn't JB and M allow their PR person to write a statement for them saying that all they want -- and they really really really want it -- is for the truth to come out? .... So I'm sure Jim Bob must actually be quite happy to testify fully and completely under oath, since that's the case! 😁

You can only plead the fifth if the question is about something that might incriminate you. But do people manage to use it to avoid saying things that might incriminate the friend or relative who's the defendant? I don't see how Jim Bob would face any legal jeopardy himself from questions he might be asked in this trial, really. But he'll be mightily mightily motivated to avoid saying anything that might incriminate Josh.......So is there a good chance he could manage to use the fifth amendment to avoid that.....or not much chance at all? I guess my question is -- How good are prosecutors at crafting questions that force you to spill the beans on the defendant while not leaving you room to claim the question might incriminate you? I'd think they'd learn to be quite good at this....but are they?

They sure like to wear brown shoes with everything.

When something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Is this sort of thing kind of a sign that they don't think they have much actual evidence that actually helps them demonstrate that it's simply not proven that Josh did, in fact, do it? Sort of like their earlier attempt to argue that the charges should be dismissed because nothing the Department of Homeland Security has been involved in for the past three years is legitimate?

yeah, that's my guess, too.....

Well, based on everything we've seen over the past few years from breakout beloved tv star Jer Vuolo, I believe this is the primary meaning of life, right? So I think you've nailed it here.

Well, seems to me that whatever the reason is, it has to be a very twisted reason because of the impact it might have on an innocent child's life......So somebody who's denying, dissociating, living in danger of a total collapse of their world if any of those "coping "mechanisms" fail -- .... seems to me in that state she might be capable of pretty twisted actions......and maybe this name is just one of them.... Like, what if one of the facts she's completely denying and dissociating from now is a years-long buildup of absolute stone cold fury? Toward Josh....and also toward God and her parents and in-laws, the five of whom essentially gave her Josh, back when all of them should have been more cautious about what they were advising a young girl to do. Why couldn't that fury come out in the form of unconsciously naming this baby after the previous Josh debacle? That was a time when she probably thought they'd hit rock bottom, and then all her beliefs and the four parents, and Josh, and probably even the God in her head who answers her prayers likely assured her that you can rise from rock bottom with Jesus......But now look where they are..... Honestly, if you were writing a Yellow Wallpaperish novel about somebody losing it in a situation like this, you'd definitely consider having her unconsciously name her baby after what she formerly thought was the worst thing that could ever happen to her (for some twisted reason -- even like imagining it's an homage to forgiveness or something) ......Because the baby wouldn't exactly be real to her -- her confused and trapped and raging furious mind would be the only thing that was real...She'd be wholly driven by things other than the baby, if she were in this state. So a concern for the baby that would ordinarily stop her from doing it wouldn't be a factor because that's obscured by the huge mess that her mind and her life have become. Seems to me if Anna's really kind of losing it here in real life -- and I don't know that anybody would be too surprised if she were, would they? -- could she not do something that out-of-the-blue crazy? Giving the poor child that name is pretty clearly delusional, one way or another, seems to me..... To me, their delusional lifestyle and set of beliefs might kind of set people up to lose it when things get very real...........The current situation might actually be harder for Anna and other Duggars to deal with than for people with closer ties to reality, I would think.

They couldn't believe that it;'s MackYnzie, so they spelled it Mackenzie. 😬

I think it's both for these people. They're heavily heavily heavily into a religion and a cult and a community of people caught up in all those same things that in truth impart nothing but ignorance and delusion to them. But that at the same time strenuously encourage them to arrogantly view themselves as superior in every way to everybody else.

They are all -- thanks to their religion, their cult and their arrogance -- completely in denial of the facts of Josh's life, the facts of Josh's and Anna's marriage, and about a million other key facts about what destruction they and their life "principles" have wrought and continue to wreak on themselves and their children and grandchildren. They've utterly bought into a pile of huge huge lies about life and the world in general. So, no, I'm not surprised for one second that none of them would ever ever say anything about that name to Anna. These people -- all of them in the oldest generation, at least -- are far far far far far sicker and more deeply destructive to the younger ones than we want to admit. They're all totally in denial of things that are just plain facts to all of us out here observing them. Their denial of reality in favor of the many myths they prefer is near complete,, I think. And this is just one of many events that clearly demonstrate that fact, seems to me. These people are so far from normal or average that it isn't even funny. They're as sick as the sickest quadrant we've got, I think. And, most alarming to me, they show no signs of getting any better. (Partly, I expect, because their arrogant self-delusion has been rewarded as they've become rich influential "celebrities, thanks to their tv show.)

I could believe that a lot of things Anna does come from motivations and feelings she's totally and repeatedly squashed throughout her life exploding into the real world utterly without her being aware of what's happening and without any conscious intention at all on her part. I don't usually feel really Freudian. But in Anna's case, seems to me there's been absolutely massive cognitive dissonance in her life for pretty much her whole life, and intense pressure both external and internal for her to completely ignore the dissonance and keep saying the stuff that's apparently making her a "role model" for fundie/Gothard girls who are also being impelled along the same paths. Just endless cycles of confusion and/or anger and then unconscious but strong-as-hell repression, none of which her internal armor ever lets her be even vaguely conscious of. She does keep saying the stuff she's supposed to say. She does keep getting the kudos as the role model. And in all this time, i don't remember anybody seeing or hearing anything from her that would really show that she's often a boiling cauldron of bafflement and disillusion underneath. So I think she can very easily have named this kid "Madyson" for all the reasons we think a woman in her position might do that --- without ever allowing the fact that the name is crazy inappropriate and horribly meaningful into her consciousness for a millisecond. Just an automatic revolt of her subconscious completely outside of her awareness. And I may be crazy, but I can't actually see her using the name with any conscious awareness of its significance at all. Sadly, I think she may be so fucked up by her long forced and ultimately weirdly voluntary participation in the charades that are her patriarchal, fact-denying religion/cult and marriage to Josh Duggar that she can and does utterly deny a whole bunch of facts that most people would find almost impossible to deny.

OMG. I forgot about "DIthY." Y?! Y?! Y?! Y?!

MackYnzie, MarYella, MadYson ... Y?! Y?! Y?! Maybe this is Anna's unconscious, years-long cry for help. 😬

Argh. I was hoping there wouldn't be anybody like that. On some juries I've been on, witness testimony from people like this has been a wide-open door for everybody's reasonable doubt. When a jailhouse snitch says exactly what the prosecution wants to hear....or the defendant's younger sister testifies to exactly what the defendant wants to hear....you immediately start to wonder what's in it for that person and scrutinize their demeanor and feel skeptical about them. That's the kind of conversation that can go on for hours in the jury room and make everybody skeptical of everything. Well that proves it. Irony is definitely dead.

Well, all I was trying to say was that they wouldn't go to just any church. They'd only go to KJV-only so it's a somewhat limited pool of churches they'd consider.... Of course, I'd bet that JB and M could stomp off in a huff from five churches within a decade, so there's that....😁

Since the Duggar-affiliates crowd are all pretty much KJV only, their choice of churches is somewhat limited, even in a massively Baptist/Independent Baptist/conservative Evangelical state like Arkansas, I would think.

If only.

Indeed. But I don't think that before reality tv, we really had such a culturally significant moneymaking mechanism that gained its profits by repeatedly and continually making the lowest-common-denominator of person into a highly visible "celebrity." (and doing this with many people, not even just a few) And unfortunately people revere celebrities in ways that we don't revere, say, our neighbors (even when the celebrities and the neighbors are actually quite similar).. People generally always have and always will regard "fame" -- no matter how it's come by -- as elevating a person who has it. So....I still think it's well worth pondering what it means for tv networks to get rich on making the Duggars and Kardashians into well paid, super-visible "celebrities"! It's human nature to see celebrities as role models, in my opinion And we do have a different, dumber version of celebrity now than we had in the past. And I expect that for this reason, reality tv has gone some way toward further dumbing down and coarsening our society. You might say society already was dumb and coarse and didn't need any help getting there. And that's certainly accurate in a lot of ways. But to me that's all the more reason why we ought to contemplate the potential for things we do to worsen that condition! Just because something regularly happens doesn't mean its consequences shouldn't be questioned and examined.. In fact, it's my opinion that the things we overlook and regard as old hat and no biggie are often the things that need examination the most!

As one watches the various Duggars and adjacents doing all this stupid crap, it might be valuable to ponder the fact that to a whole heckuva lot of viewers these people are revered role models. (There are haters in their social media fan followings, but I'd bet quite a bit that a significant majority are leghumpers all the way.) So there's something about nastiness, insecure vindictiveness, worship of ignorance, humorlessness, fear and hatred of anything and anyone who's different and so on that many of our fellow humans revere and try to emulate as they've watched this family for over a decade. Worse. Most of these leghumpers think of themselves and the Duggs as The Very Best Christians the world has to offer -- and thus the world's and the country's only hope of salvation from Satan. What in the world was shown on these tv shows that would make anyone think that? And yet they have and do. Insanity.

I think a huge problem with Christianity is that Christians and Christian groups have utterly flung aside that very wise idea that Judaism has about arguments! In Christianity, most everybody with an opinion has seemed bound and determined to squelch every other opinion permanently........ I've always wondered why that was true when the religion from which Christianity is derived has such a different tradition. But I think it may be because in a lot of historical situations somebody has seen Christianity as part of a road to power, so arguments over theology often became struggles for temporal power and its benefits, not just arguments over concepts and principles. Since it's entirely a religion that's based on winning converts, it's natural to look at Christianity that way. Whereas, by contrast, Judaism has basically been a religion you're born to, so arguments over what's right and wrong have a different meaning. Disagreements can be about deciding what's the right and what's the wrong interpretation and not very much about bringing greater numbers of people onto your "side."

Maybe there's some local church that only has senior citizens left in it......😁 There seem to be one or two of those around in most places... But I expect Josh is passing on church these days. And glad of it. . As far as I can tell, Bin's church is currently pretty much entirely a virtual institution that podcasts sermons. There is a building. And they advertise one live Sunday service at 10:30 am. But beyond that, the whole time he's been there I've never seen their website or their Facebook page say anything except -- "No events scheduled" and "Go here to listen to sermons online." Hard to see how that's anything but a church that largely folded a few years ago but that some people are still supporting virtually -- either in hopes of somehow seeing those sermons attract some people who'll clamor for the place to become real again.....or just while waiting for an opportunity to sell the building or for their remaining core congregation to die off or all move into nursing homes. Possibly they're holding out until they can sell the building to another congregation whose beliefs they approve of. That seems to happen fairly commonly, when there isn't a mortgage on the building or a whole lot of repairs needed or whatever. A few years ago there were one or two local arts/religious groups apparently renting space in the building. There were photos online of some events being held, such as a concert. But it looks to me like they may not have any renters now. Definitely haven't seen any pictures of people doing stuff in the building in the past couple years, although I guess somebody might rent office space there or something. When it comes to the Duggs, they seem to be pretty picky about which churches they'll attend. They want ones that are congenial to themselves -- and maybe they want ones that seem to have more people and activities, too. Bin's church may be one of those ones that mainly has a only a dwindling core of senior citizens remaining. That probably wouldn't be Duggar friendly. The church building that Jer's plant church moved into in Laredo just before he left was a Presbyterian church whose congregation had dwindled to near nothing. But they kept the building for quite some time, even though it was mostly empty or entirely empty until Grace Community Church San Antonio (with whom they at least shared Calvinist theology), which had planted the church Jer preached at, decided it was time -- and, I assume, pulled together the funding -- to buy an actual church building.

On the other hand, much better bland than criminal or massively attention-hogging, For me, anyway!

I can't decide whether I think think Anna's got any kind of realistic view of all this or not. On one hand, it seems impossible that she doesn't. .... But on the other, she's a person who I think seems to have once bought completely into the Gothardy idea that since she spent her childhood and youth trying to be super-good, and didn't behave like those brazen unChristian girls who date and chase a bunch of boys, her godly parents and Josh's godly parents and God himself all got together and gave her the prince of her dreams, Josh.....And I don't know how long or how much she's clung to that vision of her life, but I think she once invested in it very heavily -- and we still see her touted as Gothardy role model for young women and teen girls -- so she must at least be talking some of that game still.... So if you bought into that vision wholeheartedly once and tried to keep it up for quite a while -- what do you do if you're forced to look at and accept the absolute horror of what Josh went way out of his way to look at for pleasure, and the reality that if law enforcement hadn't stopped it he'd almost certainly still be doing it, and that this family of seven kids that you've followed all the rules to create may now be without its father -- the most important person in the family, according to all this stuff she's bought all these years.... She still talks the fundie/Gothard game and teaches it to her kids and role models it to Gothard teen girls.....but how does she does she reconcile the fact that four highly respected adults in that world and God himself all told her as an innocent young girl that Josh was her prince and her umbrella of protection for life, the umbrella of protection for the many babies she was supposed to have..... How would you reconcile all that stuff if you'd bought it for so long? Could you still hold those four parents in esteem? And what about God? Was he showing bad judgment in choosing Josh as the reward for a young girl who'd been obeying all the crazy Gothard laws? It seems to me so likely that there's a lot of stuff in her head that has to be really hard to reconcile with the full truth here. So what do you do when you face so many painful contradictions? It just seems to me that most of us would really struggle with denial and deep confusion and intense emotions -- and then trying to communicate things accurately and usefully to all those little kids...... It's true she's already had to explain some things to them about his absence -- but that'll be nothing to explain and cope with compared to what they'll all face if he gets convicted and goes away to another state for years...... I don't know enough about her to even have an opinion about her balance of realism and delusion at this points. Perfectly possible that she's completely realistic and has been for years so it's no biggie and she'll cope with it easily....But complete denial also seems possible to me....