sistermagpie

I have no problem with somebody trying to have a kid if they want (but yeah, she should be thinking long and hard about what that could mean for the child), but talking about it as a dealbreaker in a relationship between two near-50-year-olds was hilarious.

I actually don't even think she's parentified at all. (The rest--definitely, they are damaging her.) Not any more than any older sister teenager in the 80s. She's got no adult responsibilities when we meet her. When she gets old enough to babysit and her parents aren't home she's in charge so might make dinner, but that wasn't unusual. It's just that to me she seems to be trying to parentify herself through the series to have someone to pull rank on, but Henry never relates to her as a caretaker or someone he relies on at all. Of course, she does get a massive adult responsiblity dumped on her when she's still a kid when her parents tell her their secret--but she's completely unprepared for it. (Not that anyone could be totally prepared for that.) Henry's actually more adult-ready than Paige was at the same age, imo. I remember there's a scene where Gabriel tells Elizabeth she's done a good job with Paige because she doesn't think life owes her happiness or something like that and I thought....have you met Paige? Not that she always expects happiness, but she absolutely thinks it's unjust that she has this stuff to deal with. If she could speak to a manager about it, she would. This seems even underlined when she asks Philip if he liked his hometown and he smiles, amused, and says they didn't think like that. Paige the middle class American naturally spends time thinking about how she'd rather things were. Yeah, and the way Tim's characterized he would totally be able to justify getting with Paige when she was older. He's not a predator, but there's a lot in his characterization, imo, that suggests his morals haven't been tested. I remember someone once getting defensive over them, as if people were saying she was funny looking. But it's not about looks at all, it's an acting issue.

LOL! I remember them trying to push the whole "Russian soul" thing and I kept thinking...I don't think that expression means whatever you think it means here. She's an American girl, surrounded by Russian characters and actual Russian actors. But yeah, it's totally Paige who just noticed there's no black people in the suburb she's lived in her whole life but is going to change that through non-violent resistance and has no interest in Russia whatsoever beyond whether it might lead her to true love who's the soul of Russia. She makes every scene feel like a Chekhov play. Her voice is a balalaika.

I remember the show runners being all astonished that people thought there was something shady about Pastor Tim and I thought...dudes, you wrote the guy as taking 600.00 from a 14-year old and acting like it was an honest mistake to assume her parents knew. And then have the kid over for a sleepover with the same excuse. How can you possibly say he's not shady? That, plus all the possessiveness and pushiness--Philip can't be the only dad who's nearly punched this guy. I didn't think they were going for sex predator, but it also seemed like he could easily wind up in bed with Paige down the line when she grew up if things went on. Just because she was such a fangirl of him and the guy's clearly got an ego. The one thing about it that does work is Paige being sort of parallel to Elizabeth in not realizing the difference between people who actually love you and people whose job it is to care for you. Like, institutions don't love you. When Tim and Alice say they love you, they mean you're one of many nice kids in the youth group. That's also why I always think it's funny when people think Paige at the end is going to go to Argentina to find Pastor Tim. Not that I think she ever would, but I just imagine Alice's face at Paige showing up with a suitcase. You know she ripped Tim a new one when he came back from Africa and told him the tape story was going to stay.

Exactly! I remember first time round I assume the problem was that it's probably hard to imagine what it would feel like to get this kind of a blow to your identity, so that's why she's fine in the role pre-reveal. But on rewatch I realized that the problem starts, imo, even before that, at the start of S3. That's the moment when Paige stops being written as a child and more like a teenager. Before that, playing the surface of the scene is fine, because the text is the point. But, for instance, in retrospect I started realizing how she ought to be making her search for the secret the subtext of practically every scene. We should feel how this can't go on forever. But instead the only time she seems to be thinking about it is when that's in the text. Yes--there were a lot of times where it seemed unlikely that the other person in the scene with her wouldn't say, "OMG, what's wrong?" because she had that stricken look on her face. And yes, there are times where it's supposed to be noticeable to others, but not guilty Golden Retriever noticeable. Like there's that whole sequence where everybody's watching The Day After and I haven't rewatched that ep yet, but I remember feeling at the time like Paige really stood out. Everybody else seemed to be doing a good job portraying their character watching this TV movie about a nuclear attack--it was interesting watching them, wondering what was going on in their head exactly. Everybody's reactions seemed to fit, including Young Hee, who's weepy because she's already established she's a crier who cries at everything in movies. Paige, however, looked like she was trying to Act, with dramatic expressions like "This is upsetting to me" and "This movie is making me think about this happening to people in the world" and "The idea of a nuclear war is a lot scarier for me than anyone else." Yes, an emotionally most of the actors create an emotion inside themselves and it comes through on their faces, and the character will try to control the emotion as the character would--like people do in real life. With Paige, if she's supposed to be sad, she tries to make herself cry by imitating crying. If she's mad she'll start speaking loud and fast. And eventually it seems like she also lands on the idea that she should indicate that there's a lot going on inside her by looking confused, doing the eyebrows and taking deep breaths, as if she's still not sure what emotion she's feeling yet and she's trying so damn hard to figure it out! Or a good example of the subtext missing from all of S6 is in the fight with Philip in S6. Her arrogance in that scene would play so differently if you could see it was covering up how disturbed she is at what Philip's doing/asking.

Hate that! She was born in 67--total nitpick, but I only say it because I was born in 68 and spent most of the show thinking she was also born the same year so we'd have been in the same class. When somebody corrected me I was sure I was right--but then I worked it out and they were right. She'd have been born probably in November 1967, class of 1985--it lines up with everything we've got for her on the show. I recently watched "Say Nothing," another F/X show, this one about the IRA and it definitely made me think of P&E. Lots of people who did terrible things believing it was for the greater good, and winding up thinking it was all for nothing. There are so many people who historically have part of things like that that fizzle out or lose support or get put down. It seems so important in that moment, but in the future people are like, "Oh yeah, that was a thing at that time." I do really like that I can imagine one thing, then imagine something else. There's no ideas about what will happen that I really think are right, just a few general vibes that seem right to me. Because everybody's lives are going to change. People often seem to do what to me seems like a Harry Potter future, where they take something the character did during the show and assume their life will be based around that when that's not realistic. But of course, when people try to deal with building a whole new world for people it's completely made up so it's probably not right either. Like if I could never predict season 4 after season 3, how could I know the future post-show? It's going to be really complicated. I feel like P&E are going to have to find their own way, the two of them, rather than slot into any standard types of 90s Russia, for instance. On one hand, you could argue that her character's development is stunted by everything that happened so she kind of is 17 still at the end. But that really doesn't seem to be anybody's intention--on the contrary it feels like the show wants her to be mature and outgrowing Elizabeth's control. But I agree, it doesn't seem like it. (To me, that's never more obvious as in that confrontation with Elizabeth over honeytrapping Jackson. I've probably analyzed that scene more than any other on the show and it seems like it's meant to be Paige having a realization about herself and finally being able to face Elizabeth on her level as an adult--but instead it's just a repeat of adolescent Paige confronting Elizabeth in David Copperfield.) Part of it is to me she seems to still be a child actor even at the end, which makes the character seem childlike. Paige doesn't seem like she exists between scenes--she sleeps in the prop closet, as somebody I knew once used to say. It occured to me, for instance, after watching Darkroom how it probably should feel like something happened when she sends Pastor Tim away. The relationship should have some weight just for how long we've been with it. He's been on since S2 and he's been a big part of Paige's life. Their relationship has changed a lot. But I honestly don't feel like they had any relationship at all. I don't feel like he ever meant anything to her, so it barely even seems like a change. Like with Stan and Henry, I feel like those two have the relationship presented on the show--they went through a period of hanging out when they both wanted it and Henry was a little kid, and now they have a residual fondness for each other. With Pastor Tim it's just more like, "Oh, are you still on the show?" even though he's the main person in Paige's life after her parents. It doesn't even feel like he's somebody she used to worship and has grown to dislike. It's just really hard to feel anything for or with her, even though on paper she's in a juicy complicated situation. Her biggest moments all become about what other people are feeling--like when she gets off the train or when her parents tell her their secret. Their relationship with Pastor Tim seems real! LOL. Yeah, it's kinda...it really might have been better to just have Stan call him over off the hockey rink and have Henry skate over to him looking wary. That was such a great addition to the show--I think I also wrote some whole thing here about my theory that one of the other purposes Hans fills is to show us what an imperfect but competent newbie looks like. A lot of Paige's spy scenes echo his, but to contrast how much she's failing.

Also funny that I remember MR saying how much he hated that scene because he thinks he's a terrible dancer and they had to keep yelling at him to look like he was having fun. I think he doth protest too much. That song's become a real Americans connect for me too! I tend to think that too. With Gorbachev still in power, seems like he'd be able to put in a good word for him, especially if there's any way to prove he was uncovering a plot that was about Russia--and that was working against the USA's interests as well. I always figured Claudia was supposed to be telling us something of the truth when she imagined them all doomed if they got caught in their plot. I don't think they'll vanish completely, obviously, but I don't think Arkady, the Burovs or the Jennings are in much danger from them. After all, it's not like they betrayed them or anything. They weren't part of their group to begin with. Except a Elizabeth who got tricked into it. I think because her main thing was she can't really live happily as anybody but her exact self. She wants to be Paige in America who gets to tell people about her weird parents, at least. But it seems really fitting to me how despite the fact that they make a point of showing her having to face the future alone, it's hard not to imagine her next step as seeking out some adult from her life to take care of her--go to Stan, go to Pastor Tim. Some even mistakenly think she's in there expecting Claudia for help. (And yet some this also goes along with the idea she's somehow going to "take care" of Henry--makes no sense to me.) Totally agree--I love that gesture!

I remember someone saying that everytime they cut to a Paige/Matthew scene they felt like they were suddenly watching a high school play and I admit, I see it. Though there is something believable in them both being kind of bland people who are into each other because they're conveniently located and the correct gender and age. Although it's hilarious how he unintentionaly makes things uncomfortable by asking obvious questions about Nina. Like how dare he suggest that spies you're playing can play you back! He really does manage to find so many people willing to do that emotional labor for him. Philip offers to have his date over for dinner to make it easier for Stan. Then there's Tori the EST woman who, annoying as she is, is willing to call Stan for a date and just keep offering herself. He's a super easy target. Yes! And he knows he's there to do just that but he's just soooo reuctant to do it. And she's so gleeful when she gets him to do it. She's so cute in that scene. I love the moment when she starts to dance and she's obviously questioning hersef about whether she looks cool or not. She's performing even harder than Philip is, because she's really invested. Yes! I think it certainly makes him feel guilty, but honestly doesn't seem to have any great insight into him personally. Even when he tells her something true about himself, it's usually with the purpose of getting her on his side and it just works. Like it sometimes strikes me how transactional the Clark/Martha relationship always is. Somebody recently even described the two of them as working things out collaboratively and I thought that was nuts. He only cares what she wants to the extent that he has to work around it to get what he needs. But Martha, too, does a lot of quid pro quo. Like the first time he spends the night she basically lays out how she loves him and will do all this stuff for him...so he needs to prove something by staying the night. Likewise, when he proposes, he does it because he knows he has to give her something big to get something big in return. Martha is always, on some level, aware that her power in the relationship comes from what she's giving him and doing for him. Yeah, I think he gets a chance to help a teenager with a lying parent. Also I feel like it makes him think about being a teenager himself in some ways, how he was manipulated. Of course he sees that with Paige too, but with Kimmy he's not her father. I wonder sometimes if on some level he gets that in some ways he's a stunted adolescent since his development was taken over by the Centre around that time. His character, Jim, is able to sort of grow up with her in ways that the real Jim never would have.

Takes toothpick out of mouth: "It's me, Lazlo!" The other line that cracked me up every time was the "other immigrants who are entering this country illegally."

Totally worth watching it 3x!!!!

Hurray! The different endings rumors are truuuuuee! Love Rosemary's Baby, and my favorite part was the Guide imitating Laura Louise's sticking her tongue out at Rosemary/Nadja. Perfectly done!

Nailed it! I'm going to miss all these guys and I can't wait to see what they all do next. Especially Harvey--loved him since Huge and he actually made that Kid Cowboy outfit work especially well!

Right?! It's so weird to me. Music has always been tied to fashion, but the 80s was maybe one of the most obvious decades for that. I look at Matthew and can't begin to guess what kind of music he's into, yet he's supposed to be into music enough that he briefly imagined himself in a band? He looks like he's wearing the same fashion he wore in elementary school in the 70s. Who's even cutting his hair like that? Yet he's okay wearing eyeliner? That was always a big thing to me that Stan was presented as exactly as subtly racist as a suburban guy of his age in that time would be in polite company....yet we're supposed to believe he lived as a Nazi for 3 years? I'm not saying he actually is the guy he pretended to be, but that ought to be informing a lot of his interactions in some way. He talks about them being violent but leaves out the bigotry that is the basis for the whole thing. I remember a quote where Matthew Rhys said they were working on the look for Jim and the costume/make up/hair people kept asking women, "So, if you were 16...." which of course made him even more skeeved out. LOL! I love Julia Garner ass Kimmy. Whenever somebody talks about Martha being some great outlet for Philip where he finds comfort or help etc. And once you can relax about him not having sex with her (until she's older, at least) I kind of like the relationship. I feel like it gets Philip thinking about or processing things in his own life in ways many people seem to think only Martha does. But I feel like there's less stress with Kimmy since he's not trying to get her to do anything for him except hang out.

I remember people trying to rewrite him as a good guy, like as if he was actually at Martha's because he thought she was turned and was trying to catch Clark or whatever and just...no. The guy's literally just trying to use his badge to scare off a potential rival. And this after he only lost Martha because he cheated on her. Something we know he's going to keep doing, since his entire relationship with Stan seems to be about encouraging him to cheat on his hot wife. Sorry but yeah, there's some satisfaction in watching a law enforcement agent try to bully a civilian and finding out he's outmatched. Philip gave him a chance to get away. Philip wasn't even armed--Amador pulled a gun and a knife! He's definitely part of the reason Martha is so open to Clark too.

Totally--and with good reason! I remember there's also a scene where Stan drops by his house and Gaad's pointedly reminding him of how Stan's screwed up his life. In fact, iirc, Stan says says something apologetically like "I feel responsible for that" and Gaad says, "You are responsible for it." And Gaad's right! It would be like Philip saying he feels responsible for the state of Martha's life as if he's being generous. It's one of the things I find so amusing about Stan and lines like this really show it's intentional. It kind of slips the maverick hero stereotype on its head when he mentions how most of the office hates him. But it also sets up how this guy will have no guilt about letting the Jennings go.