sistermagpie

Btw, according to a hunter, the capes are deerskin.

I think what's interesting about those characters' fate to me is that you can't help but speculate how things would have been different if they hadn't died, because they were both defined in different ways by being against the society that eventually appeared. But the reason they're not there is that they both wound up killing themselves for reasons because of those things instead! It does make it interesting how Laura Lee wasn't included in the Summer Solstice ceremony. The bodies being there does seem like a good reason for it, but Laura Lee's death was such a tramatic moment, especially for Lottie, it still seems like an interesting choice!

And I think the show even suggests that more than another show might! Oh, I agree. But that's why I'm not saying that Laura Lee or her religion was actually bad--it's almost the opposite, imo, that the show isn't interested in morality as a theme. They're more interested in people's other motivations, and Laura Lee is usually connected to magical thinking than anything else--it seems like she hasn't throught through everything morally a lot (as evidenced by her fears about the plane crash). So it's better than she's not portrayed as a villain or someone with a hurtful or hateful religion. Her interpretation of signs to mean that she could fly the plane safely wasn't mean or kind, it was just the way she interpreted God as saying to her--and it was also pretty fanatical, even if it wasn't dark or violent. Basically, I'm just saying that Laura Lee did seem like a kind person, and that was part of who she was, but the show was more interested in how she interacted with her religion than the fact that she was nice, because the show is more interested in other impulses. I'm going to give them a chance to explain where that stuff comes from, just because I'm hoping the costume department through it through at least in some way, like they did with the opening scene of the series. Before S2 a lot of people complained about them all having winter clothing in pictures and they weren't. Seems like they must have had some fun coming up with what they're wearing.

What's interesting though, too, is that Laura Lee mostly influenced everything by being religious, and her version of Christianity isn't that far removed from the Wilderness Cult: In the flashback to camp, she thanks a lifeguard for pulling her out of a pool and he says that he didn't save her, God did. Thus taking a totally natural occurance (the lifeguard did save her) and sugesting it was supernatural. She saw signs in things like birds landing nearby meaning God would protect her if she flew a plane. (She also insists on group prayers before games and scrimmages.) Maybe most obviously, the Wilderness Cult believes that if they sacrifice and give It what it wants, It will reward them with what they need to survive. Laura Lee, in the second episode, reveals that she believs her God caused a plane crash because Laura Lee called her piano teacher a rude name--in her head. Like if she didn't stick precisely to the correct behavior, God would punish her. It's hard to imagine Laura Lee taking part in any of the cannibalism or murder, but it would be a God vs. God situation--remember her smacking Lottie with her Bible back at the seance. So while things would have played differently if she was alive, the reality is that she died early, and before she did she introduced a lot of the spiritual ideas playing out in the Cult.

Sure, it's not like he ever wanted any of the girls to die or have bad things happen to them. When he called them monsters I don't think he was meaning anything other than them being teenaged girls. (Iirc, the whole idea is in the context of him choosing to stay in the job rather than live with his boyfriend.) I think the show intetionally chose a story about an assistant coach who was sort of between the adult coach and the kids instead of a former respected or loved authority figure who falls from grace. Their interactions always seem to reflect that.

The point isn't that Ben should have brought supplies to the girls--obviously I get why he's just staying away from them now and considering them a danger to to him. But in a meta sense, we've got a bunch of mostly girl protagonists who are being shown surviving in the wilderness with at least some practical and psychological logic, showing them learning to build shelters and raise animals etc. and thinking communally, with Shauna's personal grievances threatening everyone. I'm not looking for a male authority figure representing a civilizing influence to show how the girls are morally inferior on their own. Losing his leg is enough trauma to cut him more slack than anybody else in the crash, and he had Misty on top of that, but it's not like he was established as caring about the girls even before they left. When he spent much of last season hiding in a fantasy world we saw he considered them monsters he resented having to deal with even before the crash, because he chose that job for self-protection over a scarier life that included connection to his boyfriend. Obviously compared to a bunch of murdering cannibals he's better, but that doens't make him somebody I can root for all that much. I'm fine with him living in his big womb cave with his boxes of food and potential cave friend and Natalie's protection, but his being freaked out by the girls doesn't make him a moral symbol. Hiding is just his thing.

Yeah, that definitely seemed like a possibility to me too. Especially since Tai just showed up at her door--that would seem like a sign to Van.

Nah, I think being married to Jackie would have made him feel like his whole life was dinner with those douchebags. I admit, I'd be annoyed at Ben having any kind of group. He retreated into his own issues about his own life early on. The girls have believably, imo, come up with ways to survive in the wilderness. He doesn't need to drink any Kool Aid because he's finding cheat boxes of hot chocolate for himself. Wonder if Hilary Swank is set up as what's her face Shauna was kissing in the wilderness, the one who has a personality now. I can't see how they could be blamed for his death at all. A healthy young man a totally unexpected heart attack. The fact that he happened to be running after these two middle aged women doesn't seem like it could really be their problem. I did like the hot chocolate call back. Jackie seemed to be seeing a vision of Cabin Guy at her death, and he presumably buried the box of stuff. I hope there isn't somebody else living down there with Coach but I'm afraid it will turn out his wife or daughter or something is there, icking out male survivors to take care of. I'm thinking Van got some surprisingly good news at Urgent Care that will be connected to the death of that waiter. Poor Misty had her first sleepover and wound up the girl that got pranked and sent home early. I really don't get Shauna letting her drive home in that state. I'm hoping at least Misty did pull a "you're ot the boss of me" moment at least. The person following Shauna story really does feel like another tedious retread of the blackmailing thing. It just doesn't seem like they ever know what they're doing in the present day timeline, although parts of it work for me. I don't feel like the past timeline is being dragged out as some said, though.

Finally got to see the first ep! I liked the first one so far. I agree with the above thoughts about Mari and Shauna--I feel like the hostility was on Shauna's side and Mari is just reacting to it. I immediately thought of Jackie picking Mari to cozy up to when she was mad at Shauna, and Mari being eager to use that to her advantage, but Shauna's so full of rage I don't think Mari feels anything on that level for her. It really was unjust that Nat punished both of them for the soup thing. I was mostly wondering why Akeelah and Mari weren't interacting since they used to be best friends. I was worried about Callie having too much of the wrong kind of focus after Lottie's "she's so strong" line, but I liked her story in this ep. I liked Misty a lot in this ep--I wasn't sure if the other women would really be ignoring her phone calls. We know they do that sometimes, but not always, and they already had wondered why she wasn't at the memorial. They would have at least talked to her if she'd gone. I liked her attempt to be Nat--and it's nice they can easily just use Sophie Thatcher to haunt Misty instead of Juliet Lewis. I'm taking the little society they've built as real. They've had months with nothing to think about but how to make some shelter. Really, Coach Ben's survival seems like it needs more explanation--I guess there is just stuff somewhere for him to live on in Javi's hideout. There are people who consider Coach Ben a big victim and the true hero who basically was right to burn down the cabin if he did (self defense!) but I just couldn't help but still see him as representing the patriarchal survivalist story--the one guy who just thinks about himself and his survival and conquers the wilderness vs. the girls who form a society and work together. Like when he found the supplies underground I thought yeah, of course he's going to drag it back to his lair while the girls would have shared it amongst everyone. Definitely wondering if it will turn out he didn't burn down the cabin. I wonder if Laura Lee wasn't mentioned as a sacrifice because "the wildnerness" didn't kill her, she died flying out in a plane (plus she was so clearly would not have been part of the wildnerness cult.)

I have no problem with somebody trying to have a kid if they want (but yeah, she should be thinking long and hard about what that could mean for the child), but talking about it as a dealbreaker in a relationship between two near-50-year-olds was hilarious.

I actually don't even think she's parentified at all. (The rest--definitely, they are damaging her.) Not any more than any older sister teenager in the 80s. She's got no adult responsibilities when we meet her. When she gets old enough to babysit and her parents aren't home she's in charge so might make dinner, but that wasn't unusual. It's just that to me she seems to be trying to parentify herself through the series to have someone to pull rank on, but Henry never relates to her as a caretaker or someone he relies on at all. Of course, she does get a massive adult responsiblity dumped on her when she's still a kid when her parents tell her their secret--but she's completely unprepared for it. (Not that anyone could be totally prepared for that.) Henry's actually more adult-ready than Paige was at the same age, imo. I remember there's a scene where Gabriel tells Elizabeth she's done a good job with Paige because she doesn't think life owes her happiness or something like that and I thought....have you met Paige? Not that she always expects happiness, but she absolutely thinks it's unjust that she has this stuff to deal with. If she could speak to a manager about it, she would. This seems even underlined when she asks Philip if he liked his hometown and he smiles, amused, and says they didn't think like that. Paige the middle class American naturally spends time thinking about how she'd rather things were. Yeah, and the way Tim's characterized he would totally be able to justify getting with Paige when she was older. He's not a predator, but there's a lot in his characterization, imo, that suggests his morals haven't been tested. I remember someone once getting defensive over them, as if people were saying she was funny looking. But it's not about looks at all, it's an acting issue.

LOL! I remember them trying to push the whole "Russian soul" thing and I kept thinking...I don't think that expression means whatever you think it means here. She's an American girl, surrounded by Russian characters and actual Russian actors. But yeah, it's totally Paige who just noticed there's no black people in the suburb she's lived in her whole life but is going to change that through non-violent resistance and has no interest in Russia whatsoever beyond whether it might lead her to true love who's the soul of Russia. She makes every scene feel like a Chekhov play. Her voice is a balalaika.

I remember the show runners being all astonished that people thought there was something shady about Pastor Tim and I thought...dudes, you wrote the guy as taking 600.00 from a 14-year old and acting like it was an honest mistake to assume her parents knew. And then have the kid over for a sleepover with the same excuse. How can you possibly say he's not shady? That, plus all the possessiveness and pushiness--Philip can't be the only dad who's nearly punched this guy. I didn't think they were going for sex predator, but it also seemed like he could easily wind up in bed with Paige down the line when she grew up if things went on. Just because she was such a fangirl of him and the guy's clearly got an ego. The one thing about it that does work is Paige being sort of parallel to Elizabeth in not realizing the difference between people who actually love you and people whose job it is to care for you. Like, institutions don't love you. When Tim and Alice say they love you, they mean you're one of many nice kids in the youth group. That's also why I always think it's funny when people think Paige at the end is going to go to Argentina to find Pastor Tim. Not that I think she ever would, but I just imagine Alice's face at Paige showing up with a suitcase. You know she ripped Tim a new one when he came back from Africa and told him the tape story was going to stay.

Exactly! I remember first time round I assume the problem was that it's probably hard to imagine what it would feel like to get this kind of a blow to your identity, so that's why she's fine in the role pre-reveal. But on rewatch I realized that the problem starts, imo, even before that, at the start of S3. That's the moment when Paige stops being written as a child and more like a teenager. Before that, playing the surface of the scene is fine, because the text is the point. But, for instance, in retrospect I started realizing how she ought to be making her search for the secret the subtext of practically every scene. We should feel how this can't go on forever. But instead the only time she seems to be thinking about it is when that's in the text. Yes--there were a lot of times where it seemed unlikely that the other person in the scene with her wouldn't say, "OMG, what's wrong?" because she had that stricken look on her face. And yes, there are times where it's supposed to be noticeable to others, but not guilty Golden Retriever noticeable. Like there's that whole sequence where everybody's watching The Day After and I haven't rewatched that ep yet, but I remember feeling at the time like Paige really stood out. Everybody else seemed to be doing a good job portraying their character watching this TV movie about a nuclear attack--it was interesting watching them, wondering what was going on in their head exactly. Everybody's reactions seemed to fit, including Young Hee, who's weepy because she's already established she's a crier who cries at everything in movies. Paige, however, looked like she was trying to Act, with dramatic expressions like "This is upsetting to me" and "This movie is making me think about this happening to people in the world" and "The idea of a nuclear war is a lot scarier for me than anyone else." Yes, an emotionally most of the actors create an emotion inside themselves and it comes through on their faces, and the character will try to control the emotion as the character would--like people do in real life. With Paige, if she's supposed to be sad, she tries to make herself cry by imitating crying. If she's mad she'll start speaking loud and fast. And eventually it seems like she also lands on the idea that she should indicate that there's a lot going on inside her by looking confused, doing the eyebrows and taking deep breaths, as if she's still not sure what emotion she's feeling yet and she's trying so damn hard to figure it out! Or a good example of the subtext missing from all of S6 is in the fight with Philip in S6. Her arrogance in that scene would play so differently if you could see it was covering up how disturbed she is at what Philip's doing/asking.

Hate that! She was born in 67--total nitpick, but I only say it because I was born in 68 and spent most of the show thinking she was also born the same year so we'd have been in the same class. When somebody corrected me I was sure I was right--but then I worked it out and they were right. She'd have been born probably in November 1967, class of 1985--it lines up with everything we've got for her on the show. I recently watched "Say Nothing," another F/X show, this one about the IRA and it definitely made me think of P&E. Lots of people who did terrible things believing it was for the greater good, and winding up thinking it was all for nothing. There are so many people who historically have part of things like that that fizzle out or lose support or get put down. It seems so important in that moment, but in the future people are like, "Oh yeah, that was a thing at that time." I do really like that I can imagine one thing, then imagine something else. There's no ideas about what will happen that I really think are right, just a few general vibes that seem right to me. Because everybody's lives are going to change. People often seem to do what to me seems like a Harry Potter future, where they take something the character did during the show and assume their life will be based around that when that's not realistic. But of course, when people try to deal with building a whole new world for people it's completely made up so it's probably not right either. Like if I could never predict season 4 after season 3, how could I know the future post-show? It's going to be really complicated. I feel like P&E are going to have to find their own way, the two of them, rather than slot into any standard types of 90s Russia, for instance. On one hand, you could argue that her character's development is stunted by everything that happened so she kind of is 17 still at the end. But that really doesn't seem to be anybody's intention--on the contrary it feels like the show wants her to be mature and outgrowing Elizabeth's control. But I agree, it doesn't seem like it. (To me, that's never more obvious as in that confrontation with Elizabeth over honeytrapping Jackson. I've probably analyzed that scene more than any other on the show and it seems like it's meant to be Paige having a realization about herself and finally being able to face Elizabeth on her level as an adult--but instead it's just a repeat of adolescent Paige confronting Elizabeth in David Copperfield.) Part of it is to me she seems to still be a child actor even at the end, which makes the character seem childlike. Paige doesn't seem like she exists between scenes--she sleeps in the prop closet, as somebody I knew once used to say. It occured to me, for instance, after watching Darkroom how it probably should feel like something happened when she sends Pastor Tim away. The relationship should have some weight just for how long we've been with it. He's been on since S2 and he's been a big part of Paige's life. Their relationship has changed a lot. But I honestly don't feel like they had any relationship at all. I don't feel like he ever meant anything to her, so it barely even seems like a change. Like with Stan and Henry, I feel like those two have the relationship presented on the show--they went through a period of hanging out when they both wanted it and Henry was a little kid, and now they have a residual fondness for each other. With Pastor Tim it's just more like, "Oh, are you still on the show?" even though he's the main person in Paige's life after her parents. It doesn't even feel like he's somebody she used to worship and has grown to dislike. It's just really hard to feel anything for or with her, even though on paper she's in a juicy complicated situation. Her biggest moments all become about what other people are feeling--like when she gets off the train or when her parents tell her their secret. Their relationship with Pastor Tim seems real! LOL. Yeah, it's kinda...it really might have been better to just have Stan call him over off the hockey rink and have Henry skate over to him looking wary. That was such a great addition to the show--I think I also wrote some whole thing here about my theory that one of the other purposes Hans fills is to show us what an imperfect but competent newbie looks like. A lot of Paige's spy scenes echo his, but to contrast how much she's failing.