LizaD

Please let Henry die. Please let Henry die. May the soap gods see this. Then Dark Swan can go dark cause she's trying to resurrect dead Henry (and she probably caused his death) and it would align nicely with Rump/Bae and we all know how much they hate writing new material. They'll probably resurrect him for the very special 100th episode but even a 5 episode break is better than nothing. But Zelena is still not showing when she goes to Camelot. I think they'll make the birth for the 100th episode, along with OQ wedding and the new villain of the half-season shows up to curse them as a copy of the pilot. That way they can have an excuse to bring back all the Disney characters, for the purpose of name dropping ,when they show up to pay homage to the great epic love that is OQ.

Well the world might end tomorrow but I'm going to have to agree with them. They do. It's not good stuff for sure or the type of character stuff some fans might want but they exist. And they might not be for the character you want them for but it's for some character somewhere-usually Woegina. Take the egg-napping story. That's a character beat for Snowing. They explicity said the point of that "story" was to show that Snowing are capable of evil just like the bad guys. It's the difference between "Snowing egg-napped Mal's child" vs "Snowing are hypocrites." The former is a plot description and the latter is a character description-adjective and A&E's goal is the latter. They didn't do it well but that's a different bone to pick. So yes I can see why they don't bother planning the plots out in advance. They don't care that it doesn't make sense because their goal isn't to tell a story. That's why they have these stupid glib responses to questions that ask about plot. It doesn't matter cause it's magic, cause it's a fantasy, cause it's offscreen, cause I said so etc. What matters is that Woegina is sad or Belle is brave or Snow is evil. Their goal is to show all these character moments. The problem is that they spend so much time and energy on nonsensical plots to get these characters to that one big "epic" character scene because they can't figure out how to get them there organically. Just about the only real plot-story they have is "A curse was cast and Emma breaks it" and it's no surprise that's the only "story" they planned way in advance. This is where I think they're kind of misunderstood. The washing dishes sink thing is them saying "2 women bonding over washing dishes is boring and no one wants to watch that." Because they secretly want to be writers for the Young and the Restless they're saying "but 2 women bonding over adultery while chasing a daughter on magic suicide is so much more exciting." The end goal is the bonding right? So you guys got bonding damn it and we don't care that the bonding is stupid or doesn't make sense. These writers just think they have better and more "creative" ways to show that bonding than washing dishes. Like what's the point of watching Hook and Emma watch Netflix? To show them together and enjoying being together? Well they can do that by having Hook and Emma chase after snow monsters. They just don't like quiet simple moments. They don't get less is more or simple is better. They exemplify the worst stereotypes of nouveau riche except in this case it'd be nouveau fanfic writers.

I hope that quote means they'll address the big Dumbo in the room of why someone can't just give her a TLK. It's not like she doesn't have her own separate powers, powers that she doesn't even want anyway. But that begs the question of why the crew bothers looking for Merlin at all when they can just have Henry kiss her. I'm getting a Darth Vader vibe. They wouldn't dare rip off Star Wars would they? As in she sees some future of dead Henry and is manipulated by Rump and/or Merlin into thinking the DO can prevent it. Of course this would all be acceptable if I got a really dead Henry in the end. I do think her goal is to try to change the future.

Whelp nevermind then. See this is what happens when my eyes just glaze over whenever I see Woegina. You know maybe the "heartbreaker" is meant to be taken literally and not of the emotional variety. It's not like the writer said she was sobbing. Emma literally "broke" a heart in the comic con promo right? And even though that's not canon it's almost guaranteed at some point that she will. And the who and how she kills might be what sends twitter into a frenzy. Like Henry's future father-in-law cutting the romance short? Or one of the dwarves, Granny, or Blue Fairy etc. ETA: I find it kind of funny that they've never bothered explaining titles before, although some are self-explanatory, but they have to explain this one? Just to make sure everyone knows it has nothing to do with Neal.

You know we never got a maternity test on Henry/Emma. If her real kid was dead and Henry ain't it, that could be the tipping point to dark-dom. And that would blow up twitter no? Ok but seriously, their call back to that specific dreamcatcher is also the first time Rump taught her magic. Is that what they're referencing too? My "out there" spec is that the Camelot flashback stuff in the first 4 episodes are all fake. It's what Emma dreams would happen when her family comes riding to the rescue, ending with that white dress garden stuff and she's "saved." Nobody goes to Camelot except for Emma, but instead the Camelot people traveled over to Storybrooke when Dark Emma came back and she brought them with her somehow. We get to see what really happened with Dark Emma when someone uses the dreamcatcher. That would explain that filming part where Arthur and co. show up in Storybrooke and the dwarves went after them with axes or something like that right? Cause they don't know who these people are, only Charming would from his past.

A&E usually writes the guest stars' episode, if they write a middle one. Should be half Merida centric I'm guessing with a side of Rumbelle. They did say Belle was going on an adventure with her and that they're going to compare Merida being "Brave" to Rump's cowardice. I don't really care for the characters or relationships on the show anymore so I'm hoping they'll delve deep into DO mythology and this episode might be it. The twitter blow up could be some retconned reveal drop. I don't think the blow up is necessarily the same event as the heartbreaker. Heart breaker might be a hyperbole. I highly doubt A&E are capable of writing something that stirring. The new writer could just be kissing her boss' asses. And as for the blow up, the obseessed twitter fans seem to "blow up" at the slightest thing anyway.

Maybe Dark Swan is throwing the party. And since she's the evilest evil ever, she won't invite Suzy Victim homemaker and her lasagna. That's how you will know Dark Swan has arrived. Or they're throwing a party to lure DS out and it's a trap of some sort. Either way I hope DS sets up some fun games. Like a live "pin the beanie on the dwarves" or find your heart scavenger hunt. And she can serve some BBQ royalty and grilled true love babies on the cob.

Well there's also the pink rose from Beauty and the Beast that Belle is toting around. Maybe the rose is a timer for when the DO curse completely takes over.

They were both taped. So in Rump's case, sometime in between filming Manhattan and editing the episode, they decided they wanted to do something different with Rump's dad in Pan. From what I understand, think I read it on twitter, that the Hook monolgue was also filmed because the writers made the comment that CO and JM did a great job with it. I think it just goes to show that these writers come up with stories or make decisions on the fly. When you're that fluid and flexible, then yeah I can see how stories get dropped or how some stories come out of nowhere.

Didn't someone say we were going to get the backstories of previous DOs in one of the early episodes and that we'll see they all became one for a good reason? I'm assuming by early it's in the first 4 or so? What episode could that be? And who are all the previous DOs? The only people who are getting cast are Arthur's Knights right? Percival and Lionel so far. Do all of the Knights get a turn or something? But then they would have to predate Zoso/Rump.

I agree Camera One. I think it's obvious they cut it because the writers are about to change the story they came up with. It was exactly what happened with Rump's dad story. They said they filmed and cut a scene of kid Rump seeing his dad get killed by debtors as he was running away and abandoning him, in Manhattan. It was also considered not canon and not included in DVD deleted scenes and the reson was obviously because they came up with Pan post filming Manhattan. At least he as nice enough to post the script. I predict other fans will now be screaming for their fair share of cut scenes, however.

I don't think it's a wedding. I think they're just taking the whole white swan/black swan, and whatever shades of grey swan thing a little too literally. Maybe Merlin tricks them into thinking she's cured and bam, it's the opposite. I think it's distant past Camelot/nearer past Camelot with the cast/present Dark Swan Storybrooke. You know like how they did in Lost with the flash sideways? Except it was revealed that the flash sideways was a flash forward? I think their twist this season is that what looks like flash forwards or sideways is actually the present. Which means Emma is going to turn dark pretty easily and quickly. Short of Henry dying I don't see her doing it organically, which means Merlin tricked her and/or the whole crew. Or with Robert saying that Rumple's heart isn't the same thing as Gold's heart and that the darkness was taking over his heart, I was thinking that maybe Emma gives up her heart to protect it. So Dark Swan is dark cause it's a heartless Swan and they think that's a better option than it tainting Emma's heart while they find a way to beat it.

That little clip is pretty cool. I think it's the first piece of "ad" that it looks like they spent some effort on, in a long long time. They should make it an actual scene cause it's a pretty cool shot. And the makeup and brows don't bug as much-probably cause it's from far away. It's got a very Dark Knight vibe about it though and the tagline or title doesn't help.

Man that was some horrible writing and acting. Lana has never been able to do subtle. She's always been a mediocre actress who's only able to do 2 things-total bitch and crying prettily. She belongs on a soap like Passions. Her bad acting is only outshined by JG. How is it they managed to find good child actors for every part except the biggest kid part? Poor Sean. His character is so bad and stuck propping the black hole that I always ff his scenes. But he can be a good actor I think. Or maybe surrounded by bad acting, elevated his. I saw more emotions in his face than the aforementioned. The other 3 did what they could but the writing isn't there. This scene would've been better served if it was just set to music and no original dialog needed from the master storytellers. Or if we only got that one line "DO return" at the end of the music. If this is indicative of the episode-no wonder ratings always drop after the premiere. People tune in to see the new shiny Disney toys only to be served a pile of steaming crap.

But it set up the dangerous precedent of retconning what should've been Woegina's victims getting to call her out turning into a but but Woegina is really THE!VICTIM! because all these people treated her horribly and made her evil so they deserve all they got from her. The visual of 3 men cackling over manipulating the innocent girl couldn't have been any clearer of their intent. These bozos knew how popular Hat Trick-Jefferson was, the response was right up there with Skin Deep, and Jefferson/Emma chemistry was out of this world. They could've done so much with him and his kid, and yet of course like everything on this show, it got sucked into propping the soul sucking victim black hole. They absolutely wasted SS when they had him but I'm glad he got to move on to bigger and better things.

I thought Ep.2 was Charming's centric? Wasn't that where they said the Camelot ball happens and we'll learn why Arthur and Charming's bromance is as epic as Arthur and Guinevere? On this show? No, Woegina would have succeeded but Idiots 1,2 and 3 think they know better and ruined her good plan and tipped Emma over. In fact it wouldn't take all 3 idiots, just Snow and dumb Emma herself. And then Snow and Emma will fix everything with a 5 second phone call. We've got the blue print already guys. You don't actually think they came up with a new story do you? I think they're too busy relaxing on the golf course and praying to their St. Victim in the Church of Victimology.

Crocodile clear-cut Rump's centric, it's even his moniker as the title. Apprentice I think is more split between Anna, Rump and Hook. You could say the past was Rump's story but it gave us plenty of POV from Anna and Hook in present. We got their explanation and feelings as to what was driving their actions. The parallel was Anna and Hook facing the same choice of imprisoning the Apprentice or not, and how they came to be making that choice in the first place for the same reason, to which Rump used to his advantage. The plot was Rump's but the character moments were Anna's and Hook's. As for the Woegina thing, the complete 180 I pin point to that's when Jane E. officially took over as Woegina's writer and Rump was being transitioned over to David Goodman but I don't see it as a clear 2A vs 2B. It started in 2A. Remember the whole Rump, Victor, and Jefferson bullying poor poor innocent Woegina? I'm not blaming all the crap on Jane E. either since the epic Victim tour de force is clearly A&E's plan too. But you got to wonder, they keep trying to give Woegina her "Skin Deep" and it just ain't happening. That's probably why they keep digging in their heels even more and grounding up all the other characters under her heels in the process.

I think they would tell Robert, especially if it informs the way he plays Rump or Gold and I think Robert would make Emma's image of Rump different enough from real Rump or whatever version they pick up. This isn't like Zarian. They told Lana that Woegina killed Marian at the start of 3B so that she could supposedly play out the dynamic between Hood and her. Not that I saw anything but that's what she said they did.

Not necessarily. For 3A they had Wendy and her brothers, Pan-Malcom, Felix, Tink, Liam, Hood, Ariel, Eric etc and it still ended up being mostly main cast. They always cast a bunch of guest stars or recurring every half-season. 3B had a ton too but it was still all about Woegina. Most of them were just one-off characters or another body to stand around. Usually only 2 or so end up with any significant role at all. Obviously Arthur is one. Look at the QoD. Ursula was gone in 4 episodes and Cruella didn't do anything but snark until her centric. I think Ep. 4 will be half Rump centric, and half Camelot-Merlin. Not with the way Robert has been talking. If it was just some imaginary "friend" stuff I don't think he'd be making those sly remarks about Gold vs Rump or the twist they're pimping. Robert "I give no fucks" Carlyle would just come out and say it if it was just a lame thing like Rump being a figment of Emma's imagination. I thought Rump teaching Emma back in Miller's Daughter was interesting, especially juxtaposed with him teaching Cora. The setup was clever. But that ship, like everything else has long since sailed.

I think the ball is a flashback. Writers said they're going to show how Charming and Arthur bromance comes about in ep.2. The present stuff is when they're back in Storybrooke running away from the Furies from filming reports? Is Merida the OG Dark One? And only Rump and Emma can communicate with her. They're, more or less, following the centrics pattern episode wise, not counting the Frozen arc. Ep. 2 is Snowing's. Ep.3-Jane's episode is the black hole's. 4 should be Rump's and 5 is Hook's or the guest of the hour.

I explained that already in the very next paragraph. They don't see any of those people as victims. It's an exclusive club. Graham was Woegina's cutesy romcom relationship straight from Lana's and A&E's mouths. Remember "sexy, fun and flirty?" What about those adjectives says Graham is a victim? Snow and her momma were life destroyers and you think they deserve to live happily in a castle? Emma has to pay for the sins of her parents and look Lily had it a million times worse than her so what's the big deal. She just needs to stop being a cold bitch and pushing people away. It's all her own fault. Henry was a brat that started the whole mess by fetching Emma eve though she loved him so damn much. What else does the kid want? Neal at least got 3 or so confrontations with Rump calling him out for being a shitty dad. And Rump apologized and accepted that as the truth. Did they spend endless screentime devoted to that? Nope but he got his say, Rump tried to atone and it was accepted as the truth onscreen. I mean Belle only got one scene to call out Rump too. But at least she got it. The rest don't get that courtesy cause they're not victims. Remember when Snow bitchslapped Gepetto for the wardrobe debacle and that was a dark heart move? Snow's not a victim. That's all "canon" or quotes from the show people. Rump is the only one they've straddled the villain-victim line. But as soon as Rump's big sob story was gone in the form of Neal, they completely stopped trying to write his villain side too. The fact that he spent all of 4A saying the same 2 lines about a hat and cleaving himself from the dagger to 1 character, says they're invested in writing villains? What about Rump spending all of 4B as a nonplayer even though it was supposedly his plan, says they like to write villainy or for villains? Contrast 4B to S1. It both had to do with Rump manipulating Emma for his end goal and yet we only saw that in S1. He had zero interaction with Emma and no direct active move of his put Emma or anyone to where they needed to be in 4B. They've turned his villain into a completely passive character. He was laid out like Belle for heaven sakes, for the big finale scene.That just says to me they're not interested in writing villains. Villains are by nature active characters, not passive. They're no more interested in Rump than Snow, Hook or Emma at this point. They had Ursula and couldn't be bothered to give her a legit villain story. Why didn't they freaking write for her if they loved villains so much. You know who got the most in 4B of the QoD? Maleficent the big ol victim of Snowing. Now what did they spend more time on-Maleficent's villainy or victimhood? For the rest, the villain-victim thing is entirely mutually exclusive. That's why we get stuff like the lasagna debacle of S2 where Woegina was made out to be the great big victim, without acknowledging her villainy towards those same people. Or why Eva got called out as wrong and evil by everyone without balancing it out that Cora trying to pass off her kid as someone else's fiance and then ditching that kid was wrong too. Even Hook got on the bandwagon and called out Eva. Hook of all people! Or when Grumpy placed all the chaos on Snowing's heads. That says to me there is no true interest in villains or villainy. There's only victims to be had. And the evil Snow family who aren't villains but just as bad.

I think this is the biggest myth they have perpetrated on the audience. The writers aren't interested in writing villains at all, they're interested in writing VICTIMS. That they have a fucked up definition of victim doesn't change that fact. That's the entire reason Woegina is their Mary Sue hand job fantasy. They've emphasized over and over and over again she is the biggest victim to have been victimized. Ever. Hence why they sacrifice characters and light candles at her altar every night. Not once have they truly seen her as a villain. Now I don't know why they don't think Snow, Graham, Belle, Grumpy, Granny etc are victims. It's painfully clear however that they don't see them as victims. Ok they saw Belle as a victim for a nanosecond at the end of 4A but that's exactly why she got her best and emotionally deep scene ever. If they really enjoyed writing villains, Lacey would've been a hit for them. And yet Lacey was as much a cardboard prop as Belle usually is, until she got to wave that victim flag high and proud. If they loved writing villains as much as people think they do, Dark Emma should be their new pet ala Woegina right? But I can't see that happening. She's another one they refuse to stamp the exclusive label of victim on. This also explains the Eva thing. They have no interest in why she became good sure, but they also don't have any interest in why she was "evil" in the first place. That's a villain's backstory waiting to be told and she was the villain of that piece. If she was a victim, she would've gotten a why she became a sad kicked puppy who kicked other sad puppies. Also this is where you can dump the likes of Malcolm, Tamara, Cruella, and Author, in. The pure villains vs the victims. Do you really think A&E were more invested in those 4 vs Woegina, Cora, Maleficent? I disagree. I think the general audience, emphasis on general, are primed to root for the Mary Sues and the character whose POV the story is being told from regardless of the morality. Otherwise how do you explain the long enduring success of comic book superheroes?Or something like Buffy? Those aren't anomalies. Yes there are people that root for the bad guy and they are usually loud about it on Twitter but I don't think that's really the general majority sentiment. It just so happens that the Mary Sue and POV Once is told from is Woegina. I have no doubt that if Snow got a million close ups of her crying and snotting every episode, the entire cast of characters was propping her and some character said she was the biggest victim ever every other episode, and all stories were told from her POV, the thought out there would be different. As a footnote, ratings tell me the general audience ain't buying Once's Mary Sue or POV anyway.

I'm picturing the clowns patting themselves on the back for thinking they misled the poor suckers that is the audience, into not seeing their OMG shocking twist. I've said since the finale aired that black flubber IS Merlin and this just confirms it to me. He is presented as the opposite of the DO but omg we're so smart, you will never guess that he is the DO. It goes with their lightest of light is also the darkest of darkest thing. They're saying it's Emma but really it's Merlin. They also love to do this. Put the spotlight on Emma but their patented twist is that it's not Emma. Emma isn't even a real character anymore. She takes turn being the biggest red herring to have ever existed to being a prop for their St. Victim Mary Sue. I don't think they were saying 5A will be character driven here, I think they were reiterating that it will focus on the "core" characters again. Something they've been shouting from the rooftops since Frozen cause they got hammered online for it. What kills me though is that, they're so focused on the twitter stuff they're not seeing reality. The numbers don't bear this out. Frozen gave them their highest ratings since early S1. Their bad writing drove the Frozen crowd away. Their focus on "core" ala 4B gave them new demos lows. And yeah you can debate if 4B was really core focused or not but the thing is 4B IS what the clowns think is core focused. I'm not saying the core focus is the problem either. But the writers seem to think touting the core will solve all their problems and criticisms.

Siege Perilous is also a thing in the Marvel universe and Disney owns that. I think it was some kind of mirror that was a portal to another realm or universe. But you get judged first for your actions or something like that. I don't remember a direct Arthurian connection. Maybe Merlin created it or something? That sounds something more up Once's alley and there's the mirror theme to connect it to Woegina centric.

Nah it's Woegina. It's Jane's episode so that's obviously Woegina centric. They'll think it's Charming or Percival or whomever but OMG SHOCKER it's Woegina aka the savior biggest victim biggest soul saint whom deserves the most happiness evah! Is the flash forward a confirmed spoiler? Cause I feel like Dark Swan is the present and Camelot is the flashbacks. They're not going to leave Emma's evil deeds in the hypothetical as some possible future thing. I also don't ever think they'll let up on the centrics format. That's the formula crutch they use to juggle a large cast. You know so they can tell fans to shut their pie hole when they get things like "why was Belle asleep for 90% of the season?" Well she got a centric what more do you selfish fans want? We can't sacrifice Woegina's story!