Pete Martell

My UO for this thread would be that I feel like the show has been heading toward demon Dean for years and, while I'm wary of how it will be handled, I am also compelled by it, for now. If I'm being honest, I'll say that Dean's ties to Hell are far more believable to me than Sam's - the show was all over the place in his season 4 demonic powers story, and season 5, with emo Lucifer, was ultimately a huge waste of time. My other UO would be that I don't miss Bobby, and I grew to almost hate Bobby after season 4. I don't think he was a father to Sam and Dean, and if he was, he was a terrible one. For the most part I thought the Walking Dead finale was pretty good, so I guess we'd have to disagree there. Carver had few ties to Bloodlines. If it had been picked up he would have helped get it off the ground but had no real involvement, IIRC. I think they did that with Garth mostly so they'd have a reason not to bring him back. They wrote out all the recurring characters this season, aside from Jody. Kevin died. Charlie was human and had a happy ending. Garth became a werewolf and had a happy ending.

After the pointless death of Tessa, I decided to go back and watch "Death Takes a Holiday," which was next on my list anyway, oddly enough. The little boy was a good actor. I'd almost forgotten how ethereal and mysterious the order of death was on this show before Death himself appeared and the whole thing became yet another installment of "snarky white dude who gives Sam and Dean a pass." What worked in this episode, and in Tessa's first episode, was that the order of death had no particular interest in Sam or Dean or anything else, other than reaping. I really enjoyed the conversation Tessa and Dean had here where Dean confided in her that he had spent a year feeling empty and that it was because he'd wanted to die and should have died. Dean and Tessa had such a unique relationship. I liked the way Lindsey McKeon played the cool, detached nature of Tessa. This episode got her just right. I'm sorry we never got to see more of this Tessa, instead of Death's underling, or a suicidal Dean mirror who appeared for about 2 minutes. It upsets me to think about it. Alastair said that he got the scythe from Death. Was he implying that all of the Horsemen wanted the apocalypse to start? Or was he just saying the other three did? I still don't understand, all these years later, who decided that Alastair needed to talk like the Cowardly Lion from the Wizard of Oz in a remake of the Godfather. He's so physically imposing and Chris Hederyall and Jensen Ackles work so well together, and then he opens his mouth and I keep expecting him to say, "Put 'em up, put 'em up." The scene where Sam lies to the little boy that it's fine if he stays behind (and eventually turns evil and destructive), lying because he needs to get info on the demons, is one of those moral choices that the show rarely delves into, a moral choice that isn't about becoming a monster, but about the choices you make for the greater good that you know are hurtful but you feel you have no choice but to do. The "comedy" scene of the boy beating up Sam and Dean feels really out of place, and makes them look like idiots, because they focused on this, yet they didn't even consider that the demons would have a quick, efficient way of holding them prisoner (iron chains). Speaking of idiot plotting, since Ruby's Knife was of no use to them, why didn't they leave it with Pamela? Why was she killed at all? Did it do anything to move the plot along? Was this supposed to be suspenseful (as Sam and Dean clearly weren't going anywhere, for me it didn't work)? And why, other than her brief scene with Sam where she warned him about what he was doing, were these scenes so poorly done? The bit with Tessa, Dean and the boy was probably the strongest part of the episode. Dean convincing him to accept a happier fate he doesn't even believe in, and one he likely knows he won't ever see himself.

Scarecrow -- Something Wicked -- Phantom Traveller ++ 41 - Scarecrow 38 - Pilot 27 - Faith 25 - Dead in the Water 24 - The Benders 21 - Something Wicked 17 - Skin 14 - Devil's Trap 05 - Phantom Traveler GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow

CHCH promo for tonight. Lindsey McKeon (Tessa) interview. http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/supernaturals_reaper_returns_lindsey_mckeon_reveals_why_frustrated_tessa_conspires_against_castiel-2014-05

I was wondering - since we're in con season again (with jibcon coming soon), and a lot of con reports this weekend, some spoilery, some not, some just fun stuff, do you think we could create a con thread to put links to photos or reports in?

If the show had ended around season 4 or 5 I would have been more OK with both dying. Now I'd just see it as an anticlimax. If it were me, I'd have them both live, and move on to somewhat happy lives, still haunted by their experiences. I'd have the last scenes as Dean and Sam, after both retiring and trying to live lives as best they can, getting sucked back into it, at least for one last journey.

Didn't SPN already move on from that concept in season 6 anyway? They dropped most shifting outside of the Alpha, who didn't shed his skin. I don't think there have been any shifters since. I tend to wonder if it's another budget-saving thing. I tend to think this episode was more the CW's concept than anyone else's. Mark Pedowitz had already said about a year and a half ago that no SPN characters could carry a spinoff. The heavy Vampire Diaries-flavored casting (although I actually ended up liking most of those actors here) also makes me wonder. If this is picked up they claim they will have SPN characters cross over. I doubt it will be picked up, but if it is, I would enjoy the crossovers. The episode mostly bored me. I think they should have just had Ennis and David, and dropped the romance, and most definitely dropped the fridging.

++ Hell House -- Something Wicked -- Home 33 - Scarecrow 31 - Pilot 27 - The Benders 27 - Faith 25 - Dead in the Water 21 - Skin 19 - Something Wicked 17 - Devil's Trap 17 - Phantom Traveler 09 - Bloody Mary 09 - Shadow 09 - Salvation 07 - Home 07 - Wendigo 03 - Hell House GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum

I forgot about Ann and Chris. I actually do miss Ann, because I loved her friendship with Leslie and her sweetness + sardonic nature + bitterness really connected with me, but I don't miss the baby story or most of her stories over those last seasons. I did a lot of complaining, but I did enjoy things about the finale. I thought the wrapup of the Duke SIlver story was great, and I always love Leslie's relationship with Ron. And Leslie/Ben are just such a great couple, one of the most believable and most endearing couples on TV, yet never too sappy or too imbalanced. And my heart grew a few sizes when I saw April with those kids. I'm glad they had her in that role and not just saying she hates kids. I think she'd be a great aunt and look out for those kids in a way Ben and Leslie can't quite do all the time.

I don't mind the suspension of disbelief so much because I feel like the show has always had a certain foot in that door - for instance, I laughed and laughed at the Greg Pikitis episode, but if I thought that was in any way happening in real life, I'd be horrified. What bothers me about every season since season 4 started is how one-note so many of the characters are (Tom has repeated the same jokes about being lazy and sleazy for years; Jerry is in such a loop that I "literally" cringe every time I see him or hear him; the jokes about Andy being an idiot are incredibly unfunny to me and have actually become insulting). I truly feel like this is a show that after the first few manic years, lost more and more sense of comedy. At times I've felt like these people almost became allergic to knowing how to do comedy. And that's ridiculous of me to say, because they've been doing comedy most of their lives, behind of and in front of the camera, but some of the stuff from 4 to now has just been so cringemaking. There are still some funny moments, but so much of it has been so awkward and forced for such a long time. I just couldn't laugh at some random scene of Leslie firing Jon Hamm. How novel, even though he's done these cameos about 50 times on various NBC shows and I didn't care then either. They still know how to work the heartwarming moments, which is wonderful, because I don't watch sitcoms for bitter, nasty people. It's one of the reasons I gave up on sitcoms like Everybody Loves Raymond. One of the reasons I still like the show is because of the kind, sweet moments between characters. It's nice to see that heart. But a part of that process is allowing characters - all characters - to grow and change. The Mary Tyler Moore Show knew this, as even characters like Ted grew and changed. The opportunity do that now has passed for too many characters. As much as I love the relationships between Leslie and Ben, Leslie and Ron, April and Ron, there's so much dead space. The only time I laughed tonight was the quick appearance from Tammy II. Megan Mullally has such brilliant comic timing and the show never overused her, the way they have overused people like Jerry or Tom or Andy. If this is the last season I hope they take advantage of this time jump to truly make character changes, or weed out some of the most played out elements.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/548363/20140416/walking-dead-season-5-casting-update-chase.htm#.U1B8nFVdXOs

Tyreese is another character who is significantly impacted by Daryl's role on the show. I feel like they brought Tyreese in because they had some very strong (and I'd say warranted) criticisms for their treatment of black men, and this was also a way to appeal to comics fans. Unfortunately they don't seem to know what to do with him, and the whole Karen thing was huge tell-not-show. I do think that having him with the kids and then his role in The Grove, especially his forgiving Carol, was a big improvement, and it felt like they were writing to the strengths of the actor. My favorite Tyreese scene overall is the scene where he was flirting with Karen before she went to bed, singing, etc. I thought that was sweet - something you rarely get on this show. I also greatly enjoy his relationship with Sasha. I hope we get more of his relationship with Carol. They're both outsiders, in many ways, and I think he should become one of her main links in the group. I don't mean romantically, necessarily, but at least a friendship.

But that's the reason I don't see Carol as a fierce leader and Rick as a pathetic failure of a leader, as some fans do. They have both made mistakes. Rick didn't fully understand Carol's actions and didn't try. Carol never tried to understand Rick's actions in season 2, which is ironic, because ultimately she went down that same road herself this season, hiding things for what she saw as the good of the group, and killing Lizzie (mentally ill and increasingly prone to murder) the way Rick killed Shane.

I thought that we might be better off having a separate thread for people who want to speculate without spoilers. If so I guess someone can create that. http://www.eonline.com/news/531345/spoiler-chat-the-walking-dead-orphan-black-shameless-parks-and-recreation-and-more

They were, IIRC, barely lower (at least in 18-49), and the premiere ratings were a record high. I think TWD is at a point where there aren't going to be new ratings records. There are likely going to be declines. It's an aging show that has likely reached pop culture saturation point. I thought season 3 petered out once they got past Lori's and T'Dog's death. There was a lot of assumption on the show's part that viewers would be fascinated by The Governor, would see him as another Rick, and would care about his decay. I can see where the idea came from, but I don't think it warranted so much airtime. I didn't need to see The Governor attack the prison, or to have a big war. I knew that would never make sense, because the comic book had way more characters to kill off at that time than the show did. Unfortunately, the only way to not have The Governor and his army attack the prison was to have him go nuts on his own army and then run away. So there's no drama, after so many episodes setting up this drama. Andrea died, which was dramatic, but it left a bad taste in my mouth, because ultimately she died for nothing. And I felt like she was being punished for being unpopular with viewers. The idea of two of the show's main women being punished by death for being unpopular with viewers made me extremely uneasy. It will always make me uneasy watching this show and any female characters going forward. I also felt like most of season 3 just had no characterization for most of the group - everything ground to a halt. Things would happen TO them and they'd gnash their teeth, but they were blank slates otherwise. I did like the parts of the finale that involved the Woodbury group moving in, and Rick saying goodbye to Lori. I feel like the show wasted the Woodbury group as redshirts and they left the prison too early (I think I'm in the minority there), but my only major complaints with this season were giving two full episodes to The Governor and not doing a better job explaining Carol's POV for killing Karen and David. I really liked that we got more fleshed out characterizations this season. They didn't always work (Beth), but I still liked seeing the show make the effort. I liked the way they tackled the "what do you do to survive?" theme - I don't think they've handled it as well as they have this season. I thought they did a wonderful job with Carl's characterization this season - he is a central character, a vital character, not just a kid who is gun happy or doesn't stay in the house. And other than Abraham's group, I cared about all the new characters. Not killing off most of these characters means next season has higher stakes for me, because I don't know who will die.

I don't see the similarities between Tara/Maggie or Beth/Maggie, or Daryl/Rick. Rick is a leader. Daryl is a follower. Tara is a klutz, blindly loyal, and nakedly emotional, Beth is emotional and focused on proving that physical weakness doesn't make you a burden; Maggie is reserved, guarded in her loyalties, and extremely physical. For me Glenn is capable of both leading and following, which seems to make him more difficult to write for. He's also the guy things happen to, because Steven Yeun is so good at showing us reactions. I don't think the problem for Glenn was becoming like Rick as much as it was Daryl becoming so popular with viewers and eating away at the role Glenn had in Rick's life. Part of that is based on Glenn becoming more involved with Maggie and Hershel, but I do think he would have had a more central role in Rick's decisions if not for Daryl. I really think Glenn would be better served in his own story thread, away from Rick's group for a while. I know a lot of fans hated the Glenn and Maggie stuff after the prison fell, but personally, I enjoyed it more than I've enjoyed anything for Glenn in years. Glenn was capable, passionate, he had new relationships with people. It was a nice change.

I'm confused by this. Rick and Hershel were concerned enough to where Hershel encouraged Rick to change everything about how he (and Carl) existed within the prison. The problem with Carol's advice that you mention in the first sentences is that it was limited to essentially talking at people, more than actually being involved. Carl was a brat to her, Carol was understandably hurt and said as much to Lori and Rick, but it made no difference, because by that time she no longer had any relationship with Lori or Rick or Carl, so it was just them asking Carl to mind his manners, while they were dealing with a bunch of other problems (Shane, the baby, staying on the farm, etc.). Carol's questioning of Rick's leadership would have worked mostly if she'd had strong plans of her own, beyond wanting to leave with Daryl. Carol had said around the time of all the hand-wringing over what to do with Randall that she wanted no part of making decisions like those. And I understood why. But that's part of what being a leader is about. Carol simultaneously was not part of the group, yet wanted the group to do what she wanted, because she wanted it. Her never fully being a part of the group finally blew up when she killed Karen and David and kept quiet as people were beating each other senseless. One of her closest friends (Daryl) was in the middle of that mess and could have gotten hurt. When she did tell the truth, it was to Rick, and she seemed to assume he wouldn't tell Tyreese. Which would have meant again going against group dynamics for what she thought was right, even though her actions were detrimental to the group. I think one of the lessons Carol may have learned this season was that keeping to yourself and making decisions based on what you think is right and assume must be right for others can have consequences. She was somewhat distant from Lizzie and Mika and focused on making the girls strong, because of her memories of Sophia. This meant that she was blindsided by what Lizzie did. I think Carol had a lot on her plate and I don't envy the decisions she had to make, but I feel like she is learning the limits of the "I have to do everything, I must do everything by myself, for myself, I must keep quiet about this, this is for everyone, whether they know it or not," mindset, and a start of her opening herself up more. She may never be a part of the group, she may not want to be, but her opening up to Tyreese and Tyreese validating that choice was a huge step forward.

Promo for tonight's episode.

Skin -- Something Wicked -- Wendigo ++ 29- Pilot 29 - Scarecrow 25 - The Benders 23 - Faith 23 - Dead in the Water 21 - Skin 21 - Devil's Trap 19 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 15 - Hell House 15 - Bloody Mary 13 - Shadow 13 - Salvation 13 - Wendigo 11 - Asylum 11 - Nightmare 11 - Route 666 09 - Home GANKED: Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man I'm still not sure how to stop the spaces. Those just seem to show up when I change the ranking around. I'm sorry.

I thought he and Angelique had had a little something together even in the original.

Cute little video with Jared and Misha showing what they're going to contribute to William Shatner's auction. http://telly.com/1IR6V06

Thanks. So I guess they beat up Gadreel first and then the photos where Metatron is with them come after. I hope they won't kill Cas' angel followers. Or have them side with Metatron. I did laugh at the photo where he freezes Dean and Sam or whatever.

I gave up on reaper canon a long time ago (back when we found out Death was in a box and apparently digging him up did nothing to change the natural order, other than death going from being neutral to being a Winchester BFF), but I'd be less bothered if a less awful writing team wasn't doing this episode. It makes sense in a way, but I just don't see them doing this justice. I have a feeling this may be an infodump and it will never be mentioned again. I hope they're doing this so that the reapers will kill Metatron and maybe take over Heaven. More likely they'll all just be killed instead, but I'd rather see the first one. I just hope they won't ruin Tessa.

Provenance ++ Hook Man -- Something Wicked -- 27 - Scarecrow 23 - Faith 23 - Pilot 21 - The Benders 21 - Hell House 21 - Devil's Trap 19 - Dead in the Water 19 - Skin 17 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 15 - Wendigo 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Salvation 11 - Dead Man's Blood 09 - Hook Man 07 - Home 05 - Bugs 05 - Provenance I'm sorry about the weird gaps I caused. It was a formatting issue, it wasn't intentional. I can't get them to go back to being right underneath each other.

Devil's Trap -- Provenance ++ Hook Man -- 25 - Scarecrow 23 - Faith 23 - Pilot 19 - Hell House 19 - The Benders 19 - Dead in the Water 17 - Devil's Trap 17 - Something Wicked 17 - Phantom Traveler 17 - Bloody Mary 17 - Skin 15 - Wendigo 15 - Asylum 15 - Route 666 15 - Nightmare 15 - Shadow 15 - Salvation 13 - Hook Man 13 - Dead Man's Blood 09 - Bugs 09 - Home 07 - Provenance (I don't really mind this episode - I loved Sarah and it wasn't a bad change of pace from the heavier elements of late season 1)