Pete Martell

I'd think less of Catelyn if she'd tried to ruin Bran's relationship with Jon while he was fully healthy. She never did, as Bran clearly adored Jon, so much so that he nearly gave up the quest that had pretty much kept him going, just to see Jon again. When Jon came to say goodbye, Catelyn was exhausted, paranoid, and angry. Jon was the easiest target. If he was also trying to prevent Robert from murdering a Targaryen child, I can understand it more, but it still upsets me, because he showed no faith in Catelyn. And you could see that this affected her; she was unsure of herself and her place at Winterfell even in the happiness before Bran's fall. Ned was a good man, a wonderful man, but he hurt his family a great deal with his ideas of honor and nobility.

I guess what I was thinking was that since Sansa is going to have all new material next season (aside from if they do the Harry story), they might end up having some moment of what would happen if Jeyne (forced to be Arya) met Sansa (pretending to be Alayne) at some point if Sansa and Baelish get more involved with Winterfell's fate. Of course I don't even know if they'll have Jeyne. I was a little surprised at how prominent she was in the first book (in Sansa's chapters anyway), as I'd seen the show first, and in that she just vanished after the pilot. There's a scene in the book where they gossip for hours and then go and eat some pie after they run out of lemon cakes. A scene like that might be a good way to contrast what they were and what they now are, but I guess the show won't really do a lot of flashbacks outside of the Cersei one.

I don't really feel like Stannis has ever been as obsessed with the importance of sons as many rulers on the show have been. Perhaps he was and then gave up after Selyse had so many miscarriages and stillbirths, but I've never felt like he resents Shireen or has settled for her. (I'm not sure if this is true in the books) He doesn't want her to be beaten, he tries to protect her from the world, yet he also makes sure she has a good education. I'm not sure if he has the ability to love her or to love anyone, but I think he's a good father, at least up to this point.

As for Catelyn, I think she was a good mother. The bulk of hatred for her as a mother comes from her treatment of Jon, but Jon was not only a constant reminder of her husband's adultery, but a constant reminder that Winterfell would never truly be her home. She lost the man she loved and the destiny that was supposed to be hers, only to marry his brother, a man who was good and kind, and whom she likely fell in love with bit by bit...and then when he returns home from what could have been certain death, and she is with their firstborn child, their future and hope, he presents her with a son of his own, a mockery, and a reinforcement to her, at what should have been one of the happiest moments of her life, that she simply was not good enough. And she couldn't even talk about this or object. It was a closed subject, for 15, 16 years. My only real criticism of her as a mother is that I think she lacked focus and clarity, not realizing that her attempts to "protect" Bran only left him more vulnerable as she was led down the garden path. But compared to most mothers on the show, I do think she was loving and good.

I don't think Joanna had any type of great power over Tywin, but I think if she'd lived, then she likely would have been able to convince him, and Cersei, to love Tyrion. I don't think she would have been able to take away Tywin's pragmatic ruthlessness (things like what was done to Elia and her children), but I think she might have been able to prevent him from being so psychologically abusive to his children. I imagine that as Cersei got older she would have idealized her mother less, perhaps even grown to resent her, but she still would have been a major presence who was there for Cersei and loved her. Other than Jaime, who was often away, Cersei never really had that growing up.

If they do use Jeyne Poole then I wonder if they will have her interact with Sansa in any way. I don't think the book did so I guess the show wouldn't either.

I guess people may be thinking of things like the show having Locke going to try to track down/kill Bran.

One of the video reviews for this episode mentioned that the changes from the book made it difficult to believe Arya would not mercy kill The Hound, because unlike in the books, they really had a bond. I'm biased, as I did not like this relationship, nor did I think it was some great father/daughter commentary, but I do see that the show had them as being close sometimes. For me, her leaving him to die made the otherwise offputting/repetitive scenes they had in "Breaker of Chains" come to life, because the whole message of that episode was him teaching her that it doesn't matter how kind you are or how much you try to help - you're just a means to an end. Arya did to him what he did to the farmer, complete with taking his money and leaving him injured (although the farmer didn't seem to be grievously injured).

I don't really know if D&D would change their plans for Lady Stoneheart because of people complaining online. I guess fake Arya's role would depend on where they're going with the story. If it's still about Theon finding some redemption, then she may still be a victim. If it's about the scam, then she may not be. I don't know if Myranda is supposed to still even be alive, as there was a cut scene of her slapping Ramsay during sex (the sex scene in episode 6), which has led some to think he killed her and the show cut those scenes because of backlash over the sept scene and the Craster's Keep scenes soon after.

Joanna?

I have a feeling the season will end on Dany riding Drogon to parts unknown. Either that or that will be episode 9, and episode 10 will have her meeting Tyrion for the first time, and saying she's going to get everything back and show how a queen conquers, et al.

I was wondering... - did you start watching the show first, or did you read the books first? - which characters, when you're reading the story, do you "see" the actors from the show, and which do you see other images of rather than the TV actors? I started watching the show first. The characters where I "see" the TV versions - Dany, Jon, Ned, Robert, Jaime (maybe), Bran, Sansa, Loras, Arya, Theon The characters where I see my own version not on TV - Tyrion, Cersei (maybe), Catelyn, Sam, Robb, Renly I'm still in the first book.

Yeah when I saw that quote I immediately wondered if that meant they were going to say Dorne was secretly a hellhole. She's maimed by plots in Dorne, isn't she? I wonder if they will still include that if he chooses not to take her with him, because it would once again undercut his redemption and prove Cersei right (unless her possible escape route for Myrcella leads to the maiming).

True. I guess I figured they sort of had to show him more in season 2 than they might have to in season 5, since his story impacted more major characters in season 2, but I guess it depends on how season 5 is structured. You'd think season 5 would have to be very North-heavy, especially with King's Landing depleted. Not everything can be in Essos or Dorne.

Clearly Cersei's flashback is the most important (it's almost vitally important to her character and the future of King's Landing), but I can't help wishing they also had a flashback of Tyrion's childhood obsession with dragons. The AGOT scene where he, as a child, explored the dragon skulls, stared into the fire, etc. is riveting, and would set up his upcoming interaction with Dany. If they need one for Jaime, then perhaps they could flash back to his struggle with learning to read, and how Tywin shaming him the way he did helped convince Jaime to shut down emotionally. I really wonder what they will do with Margaery and the Tyrells. If they are deemphasizing them because the story was never supposed to be about them, I'd be annoyed, but might understand it; it's just that I don't want to see a season of Margaery losing more IQ points and being a victim. I don't think Natalie Dormer plays that well. King's Landing is going to be so empty, I wonder if we might be getting another Tyrell brother after all. I wish they'd had some of these serious scenes with Brienne in her walkabout this season, instead of just comedy. Perhaps they're afraid viewers won't want to see the serious side of her journey. I'm wary of how the show will handle this, in part because they may not think Theon is popular enough with fans, and also because the subject matter is so horrific (after a season of criticism for rape/sexualized violence no less). I was surprised at how strong I thought Theon's characterization and material this season was, so I hope that means they may continue that next season. Alfie can sure sell it if they let him. He always does.

I don't think Sansa is Littlefinger's, but I feel like they're setting up a scenario where even if she reclaims the Stark name or lands, it will be very bittersweet. That she will have Winterfell, but it will be hollow. I hope that won't be the case.

I think the Starks had their share of agency this season, I just felt like the narrative was pushing them toward realizing they could only move forward if they left their Stark identity behind. Arya's innate goodness was mocked by The Hound, and she later left him to die, instead of caring about "honor." When she wanted to try, one last time, to get back in touch with her Stark side (through reuniting with Jon), fate instead pushed her to Braavos. Sansa has to put on a brand new persona, and form an increasingly intimate (not romantically I must stress) bond with a man who was in the end an enemy of her family and was hated by her parents. Bran had to give up on reuniting with Jon, and then had the scene at the end where he asked if he could walk again, and the cave guy said, "No, but you can fly," which felt to me like saying he had to give up the shell of Bran Stark. The only one who moved forward within his Stark identity was Jon. Perhaps they're saying Jon will be the one to bring them back together, but I feel like it was something of a point of no return this season.

Here I am, embarrassing myself by crying over a fanvid (made after season 3). I guess because it sort of sums up my feelings after the season finale, that even if all the remaining Starks remain alive to the end, the family is pretty much gone in a way that will be nearly impossible to overcome. I'm not even one of those fans who has to watch because of the Stark family...it's just that the way the story arcs the last two seasons have gone makes me feel so very desolate about them. To be honest the story arcs for Arya and Bran and Sansa this season (which felt so much about slow deaths and their realizing they could only continue on if they were no longer a Stark) hit me harder than last season, even though I loved Catelyn and was very fond of Robb.

Hunted -- The Usual Suspects ++ Nightshifter -- 41 - In My Time of Dying 41 - Tall Tales 39 - What Is and Never Should Be 39 - Hollywood Babylon 39 - Born Under a Bad Sign 31 - Crossroad Blues 31 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 25 - Nightshifter 21 - Folsom Prison Blues 17 - Houses of the Holy 17 - The Usual Suspects 13 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 13 - Bloodlust 09 - Hunted 09 - Playthings 03 - Simon Said 01 - Everybody Loves a Clown Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things Croatoan

From some of his interviews for "Sharp Teeth," I got the feeling the purpose of the episode was to write him out for good, as he really had no idea if he'd be back and seemed somewhat (to me anyway) in the feeling that they wouldn't be having him back. My problem with both characters is I just didn't believe any relationship they had with Dean and Sam. I'm sure Ash was fun interacting with Ellen and Jo at the Roadhouse, but since the show wasn't called The Roadhouse, we were left with a rarely seen recurring character wading through dated pothead and mullet jokes. I thought he was badly grafted onto the show. Even the whole "innocent stoner shock death" was better with Andy, even if Andy was kind of a piece of shit.

Since we can't talk about book material in the ranking thread, does anyone want to rank the way the show handled the book material this season, from best to worst? I'm especially curious to see if people felt that Dany's story was as bad on the show as many people seem to say it was in the books once she got to Meereen. The first half of the season was lackluster (sometimes worse than lackluster) and not all that well acted for me, but once they moved on from Daario flirting with her and all the "I will do what a queen does" stuff, I thought the last 3-4 episodes of the season were pretty good for her story. I'd actually say they had some of the strongest material she's had since the end of season 1. I feel like most of the scenes showing her struggle to rule worked as interesting social commentary, and had some really good guest actors (especially Hizdahr), instead of just being dull internal politicking.

I also thought the Tyrion material in this episode was strangely truncated. I think they may have assumed viewers saw many things in the material (about why Tyrion went there and about Shae's motivations this season) that they didn't necessarily bother to tell us. I do think the Wall material in this episode was important, especially when I watched a second time. Not only did they cement Jon moving from reactionary and lost to more of the man he can be, they were also important to reestablish the Wildlings as lost, sympathetic characters who weren't wandering around slaughtering people for kicks. I also thought, as much as the whole thing felt fanvid-dy, Jon burning Ygritte's body was the respect the character and their relationship deserved (and it saddens me that Shae got no such respect). If it had been me, I would have cut out that whole beetles conversation in episode 8 and moved Bran's story to that episode, and then used episode 10 to have a little more with Tyrion. More POV with Varys also would have been helpful, as I have no idea if he intended to have Tyrion go as far as he did (his "what have you done?" was somewhat weak...) and he just hadn't realized he'd be caught out when the bells rang, or if he truly had nothing to do with any of it. I hear a lot of criticisms of Brienne being harsher on the show. I can see that criticism, but I do think Gwendoline, and the writing, still manage to show Brienne's inherent naivete. She was shockingly naive for quite a bit of that scene with Arya and The Hound and the following fight scene with The Hound, and she nearly paid the price for it. I wonder if that will change who she is next season.

I think the material for season 5 makes a Stoneheart return more logical than season 4 would have - we should be seeing more in the North, with Sansa and Littlefinger needing more to do, Rickon still being off somewhere with Osha, Gendry still around somewhere, The Hound likely back in some capacity, the Boltons ending their story this season on a huge personal high, Winterfell becoming important to the story again, Asha clearly being reintroduced for some reason, and "Reek" starting to turn back into Theon. Having some of these characters talking about Freys being found hanged (or if the show is going to downplay the Frey involvement, having Bolton men hanged) would set up more chaos. There is also the theme which started at the end of the season and should be playing out further next season, that being the theme of death and rebirth - The Mountain will likely be back as a literal monster, Tyrion will have to start over from scratch, Dany will lose the last of what she was. Sansa, Bran, and Arya have all surrendered their Stark identities, just in time for Jon, who had such a traumatic history with Catelyn and who has become increasingly active in patching his family back together and being known as Ned Stark's son, to become the only true Stark on the show. If he becomes more involved in the North, that would also mean more of a role for Stoneheart. And I'm not sure what they'd do with Brienne otherwise. She still mentions Catelyn all the time, and she's still going to be aimlessly wandering around looking for Sansa. I doubt she'll find her, as there isn't much story room for Sansa in a crumbling King's Landing, and a Sansa/Brienne/Pod road trip wouldn't be all that enthralling. I'm not really even sure I want to see Stoneheart, as I dread such a fascinating character just being known in fandom as some (insert slur here) who is so mean to poor Brienne and Brienne/Jaime OTP, but I do think season 5 has a big place for her.

The way that answer was worded (something about it's so wonderful there and people are so nice) makes me wonder if they're going to have Dorne as some type of secret hellhole. Given that Oberyn and Ellaria were both written as pretty cool people, I would think not, but I don't know. One of the reasons I question what her finale scenes will be is because I can see them thinking that Dany flying away on Drogon would be an awesome final scene for season 5. I think they dragged Arya's story out way too much this season and I felt like it was pretty clearly just so the last shot of the season could be Arya on that ship. I could see them thinking there's a season of material for Dany continuing to falter in Meereen - the dragons escaping, her relationship with Hizdar, the masters regaining some power in the city. I do wonder if we're going to see Daario again (I hope not) or if they're going to say he was captured in Yunkai. Wasn't he captured in the books?

I'm off for a few days and Heart goes :( I am one of the few who enjoys that episode and hate how later seasons tried to make it into a joke. Hunted -- Croatoan -- Playthings ++ 39 - In My Time of Dying 39 - What Is and Never Should Be 37 - Tall Tales 35 - Born Under a Bad Sign 35 - Hollywood Babylon 29 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 29 - Crossroad Blues 27 - Nightshifter 21 - Folsom Prison Blues 17 - Houses of the Holy 15 - The Usual Suspects 15 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 13 - Bloodlust 11 - Hunted 11 - Playthings 05 - Croatoan 03 - Everybody Loves a Clown 03 - Simon Said Moved on: Roadkill No Exit Heart Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things